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Hi cato,
So God must submit to the logical moral reasonings of men?
Then your god is not our God.Why would anyone try to fit our God into their ignorant moral framework?
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 30 2008,14:28) Hi cato,
So God must submit to the logical moral reasonings of men?
Then your god is not our God.Why would anyone try to fit our God into their ignorant moral framework?
How ironic that you just perfectly described the bible. It indeed is an attempt to fit God into ancient Hebrew men's ignorant moral framework.Quote (seek and you will find @ Mar. 31 2008,02:17) Hi Mandy
I kind of glanced through this topic, your questions and responses. I don't know the extend of your understanding, or believes, I do know that many people, including ministers, have the relationship between the Father and the Son, wrong. I do not wish to belittle you or anyone else, I just want to share with you the result of my study on Jesus, and hope it will help you somehow.
What is very important is, that you believe the word of God, what it says, not what man implies it says.
If you have specific question later, don't hesitate to ask.WHO IS JESUS?
Jesus had asked his disciples this question once.
Matt. 16:13 “ When Jesus came into the coast of Caesare’a Philip’pi, he asked his disciples, saying, whom do men say that I the son of man am?”
v. 15 “He saith unto them, but whom say ye that I am?”
v. 16 “And Simon Peter answered and said, thou art the Christ, the son of the living God.”
v. 17 “And Jesus answered and said unto him, blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jo’na: for flesh and blood has not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.”
This last verse tells us more than just the fact that God revealed to Peter who Jesus was, it lets us know where understanding of heavenly things come from, God. It should teach us, that with out God’s Holy Spirit we would not understand his word, the Bible, except the historical data contained in it. Hear is what Paul says.
1 Cor. 2:9 “But as it is written, eye has not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heat of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.”
v. 10 “But God has revealed them unto us (believers) by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.”
v. 11 “For what man knoweth the things of man, save the spirit of man which is in him? Even so the things of God knoweth no man but the Spirit of God.”
v. 12 “Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.”
Have you ever ask yourself, why are there so many denominations? Should not all ministers teach the same? They all teach from the same bible, do they not? They are all taught by the same Holy Spirit, are they not?
1 Cor. 1:10 “Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment (teaching).”
Have you ever ask yourself, why do we call the Father, Father? And why do we call Jesus his son? Have you ever checked the definition for Father and Son in you dictionary? I have.
Father: He who gives life to the son.
Son: He who receives life from the Father.
One other observation, shouldn’t it be obvious to assume that the father is older than the son? Why is Jesus called the firstborn? This one should be easy, if you have children, you have a firstborn, boy or girl doesn’t matter. Jesus did not become his Father’s son when he was born of Mary; because that was not the moment he received life.
John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”
Why is this verse so confusing to so many people? The Apostle John is not the only one that referred to the Son of God as the “Word” of the O.T., “Logos” in Greek.
Hear are Jesus own words.
Rev. 19:13 “And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.”
John knew that Jesus was the “Spokesman” for God, the “Word”, because of what he had told them.
John 5:37 “And the Father himself, which has sent me, hath born witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.”
Jesus was the Word, the Spokesperson for the Father, hear on earth. For anyone to think that the “Word” was just a thought in the father’s mind, and became the “Word” when he spoke it, is just plain ridiculous. It would than have to be understood as though God spoke his thought into Mary, and it became his son. That would also mean that, when the son had finished his work hear on earth, he was asking the Father to become a thought again in the Father’s mind, right?
John 17:4 “I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.”
v. 5 “And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.”
Does it not make you wonder where our scholars and theologians get these glorious ideas? Did you notice how verse 5 ended? Before the world was. Jesus is telling us that he existed long before the world was, long before he became one of us, or have you forgotten?
Col. 1:16 “For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or power: all things were created by him, and for him.”
Also, how can we ignore the fact that God sent his son that he gave his son?
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, the he gave his only begotten Son…”
v. 17 “For God sent not his Son onto the world…”
You cannot give; you cannot send, what you don’t have. Pay close attention to the next two verses.
Luke 8:27 “And when he went forth to land, there met him out of the city a certain man, which had devils a long time, and ware no cloth, neither abode in any house, but in the tombs.”
v. 28 “When he saw Jesus, he cried out, and fell down before him, and with a loud voice said, what have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God most high? I beseech thee, torment me not.”
These were demons, they recognized Jesus as the Son of God, they had known him from the time of creation. They were not created demons, they were angels until they sided with Lucifer and rebelled against God. They had shouted for joy when the Son created the earth.
Job 38:4 “Where wast thou when I laid the foundation of the earth?…”
v. 7 “When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy.”
And then there are those that go to the other extreme and say, Jesus had no beginning, he always existed with the Father as a coequal. Read the next three scriptures carefully.
Col. 1:15 “Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature.”
Col. 3:10 “And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image (Jesus) of him (the Father) that created him.”
Rev. 3:14 “…These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God.”
Every parent knows what a firstborn is. Does anyone not know what an image
is? An image is something you make after something or some one, it is a replica, could be
a statue or painting. Who is the one that created him? Would you agree it is the Creator? Why would Jesus say himself, he is the beginning of God’s creation? Do we think he was lying? So, after reading all these scriptures, what is keeping us from believing the truth?
Jesus was made in the image of the father exactly what is this image? Spirit in nature. Adam was created in the image of God.
Gen. 1:26 “And God said, let us make man in our image, after our likeness…”
But Adam was created flesh not spirit, a different nature; so what image was Adam created in? What is it that the Father, the Son and man have in common? A mind, Paul calls it a spirit.
1 Cor. 2:11 “For what man knoweth the things of man, save the spirit
of man which is in him…”
God is a thinker, a planer, a builder and creator, and so are we, God made us that way, but most importantly, he gave us a mind to communicate with him. What animal can do that?
Jesus was not only the first to receive life, but he was also the first to live again after death.
Col. 1:18 “And he is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.”
I believe, anyone that reads Col. 1:15 and 18, and does not believe what it says, it’s not because it is to complicate, it is a simple case of rejecting truth. Preeminence is to be the first in everything. You can read about the beginning of Gods creation, his Son, in the book of Proverbs; it is easiest understood when you read it in the JAMES MOFFAT translation.
Prov. 8:22 “ The Eternal formed me first of his creation, first of all his works in days of old;”
v. 23 “ I was fashioned in the earliest ages, from the very first, when earth began;”
v. 24 “ I was born when there were no abysses, when there were no fountains full of water;”
v. 25 “ ere he sunk the bases of the mountains, ere the hills existed, I was born,”
v. 26 “ when earth and fields were not created, nor the very first clods of the World.”
v. 27 “ When he set the heaven up, I was there, when he drew the Vault o’er the abyss,”
v. 28 “ when he made the clouds firm overhead, when he fixed the fountains of the deep.”
v. 29 “ when he set the boundaries of the sea, when he laid foundations for the earth;”
v. 30 “ I was with him then, his foster child, I was his delight day after day, playing in His presence constantly.”
Read what Paul is teaching the saints.
Acts 13:33 “God has fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second Psalms, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.”
You just read the account of the first time God raised up his Son, Prov. 8:23-30. The second time was from the dead. You have to be blind if you can’t see who is being talked about hear. That is exactly why we read in,
John 1:1 “ In the beginning was the Word… (Jesus was the Word).”
When we read in,
Gen. 1:1 “ In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth…”
We have no problem understanding that the earth or the universe for that matter did not always existed, that they had a beginning; why then do we give “ beginning“ a different meaning when it comes to the Son of God, Jesus Christ? Do we think we dishonor Jesus by believing the truth? Or do we think we honor Jesus more by raising him to the same level of his Father? The Father has already raised the son to the highest position; if we try to do more we dishonor the Father.
Someone called Jesus good once.
Luke 18:18 “And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?”
Jesus rebuked him by saying,
v. 19 “And Jesus said unto him, why callest thou me good? None is good, save one, that is, God.”
If Jesus were God he would have never denied being good. That of course does not imply that he wasn’t.
Heb. 10:12 “But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down
on the right hand of God.” (Highest position of honor)
We acknowledge the fact that Jesus came to save us, but we also say that he was both flesh and spirit. Why is that false? It would have made Jesus a mixture of two natures; he would have been a hybrid. God hates perversion of his creation; he destroyed the world with a flood once because of it.
Gen. 6:1 “And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth,
and daughters were born unto them.”
v. 2 “That the sons of God (angels) saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and
they took them wives of all which they chose.”
v. 4 “There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of
God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.”
v. 7 “And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the
earth…”
v. 12 “And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had
corrupted his way upon the earth.”
These are not Satan’s demons that corrupted God’s way, these are angels that looked down from heaven and were tempted by the beauty of the woman. Read what Jude and Peter have to say,
Jude 6 “And the angels which kept not their first estate (heaven), but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.”
v. 7 “Even as Sodom and Gomor’rha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving
themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh…”
2 Peter 2:4 “For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment.”
These angels that sinned, corrupting God’s creation, apparently committed a greater sin than Satan and his demons. God locked them up in a prison, and would not allow them to roam the world. God was angry; he did not create humans to become half spirit, or spirit beings to become half humans. God created all after their kind,
Gen. 1:21 “And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.”
v. 24 “And God said, let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, and
creeping things, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.”
v. 25 “And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind,
and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.”
After their kind meaning their nature. Paul gives us this explanation;
1 Cor. 15:39 “All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men,
another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.”
v. 40 “There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial; but the glory of the
celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.”
God created all things for His glory. So then, why did God spared Noah and his family?
Gen. 6:9 “These are the generations of Noah; Noah was a just man and perfect in his
generation, and Noah walked with God.”
What does “perfect in his generations” mean? Noah and his family were the only pure humans left; all others flesh had been corrupted. To mix two kinds creates a hybrid and is an insult to God. The bible does tell us that Jesus was not a mixture of two natures,
Heb. 2:16 “For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the
seed of Abraham.(flesh)”
Jesus came to ransom Adam from the grave and all of us. Adam was flesh, and Jesus had to be of the same nature as the one he was coming to redeem. And only someone that was not affected by Adam’s sin could accomplish this. Adam’s sin made him unclean,
Job 14:4 “Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean?”
Rom. 5:12 “Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and so death passed
upon all men, for that all have sinned.”
Rom. 6:23 “For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord,”
Jesus said he came to ransom many.
Matt. 20:28 “Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.”
What is a ransom? During wartime prisoners of war were ransomed for other prisoners of war, it was an exchange. Jesus came to trade places with Adam. Jesus took Adams sin, and plac
ed it on himself, freeing Adam from the grave, and taking his place in the grave. God gave Jesus back his true nature, spirit, the flesh body of Christ remained in the grave, and so the penalty for sin was paid. God of course disposed of the body for obvious reasons. People have worshiped religious objects for centuries. Crosses with bone fragments of saints are especially sought after. Many Christians consider the shroud of Turin the most holy object, worthy of worship. Can you imagine how people would have treaded the body of Christ, had God left him in the tomb?
We are all sinners and deserve death but for now we die for Adam’s sin; or how would you explain the death of infants and little children that know no sin. If we were to die for our sins now, then these little ones should live at least until they have committed a sin. Our only hope was in Jesus Christ who was not of our nature and not effected by the curse of death. God changed his spirit body into a human body; this change did not affect his mind, for he knew who he was, where he came from and why he had come. Jesus knew about his mission from creation,
Rev. 13:8 “And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the earth.”
Although tempted in all things he remained sinless, it was his body that took on our sins, and he became sin for us. In his spirit, his mind, in his heart, he remained without sin.
2 Cor. 5:21 “For he has made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be
made the righteousness of God in him.”
Failure was not an option; it would have meant the end of his existence as well as all of ours. Jesus experienced all the things we do in our life, real thirst, real hunger, real pain and death.
Heb. 2:18 “For that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them
that are tempted.”
Heb. 4:15 “For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of
our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.”
Jesus endured it all because his mind was on the eternal not on the temporal.
Heb. 12:2 “Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that
was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the
right hand of the throne of God.”
Jesus died and was placed in a tomb, and right hear is were ministers run into a contradiction by what they teach. They say that Jesus was not really dead, that instead he went to “hell”, and preached to the spirits, using this scripture.
1 Pet. 3:19 “By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison.”
First of all, to say that Jesus went to “hell” is an assumption; the scripture does not say that. Second, to say that these were the souls of deceased sinners, is an assumption too, the scripture does not say that either. Third, to say that you are alive after you die, claiming you have an immortal soul is in total opposition to the word of God. Finally, assuming Jesus went to hell, what prevented him from being tormented by the flames? So, who are these spirits, and what is there prison? It seems that the scripture that gives us the answer has been completely overlooked, or ignored.
v. 20 “Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing…”
These spirits are spirit beings, angels, which were disobedient in that they married woman, and produced hybrids. They are the once responsible for the flood, which I referred to a few pages back. Read Jude 6 and 7 and 2 Pet. 2:4 again. It was during the construction of the ark, in the days of Noah, that these spirits, angels, were preached to, told what would await them in the day of final judgment, but they are not being tormented by flames now.
Jesus died; trusting the Father he would raise him up, after three days and three nights, God did raise him up. Jesus was given back his true nature, spirit. His flesh body had taken on all of our sins, was no longer needed and God disposed of it. And why should that have surprised any one, that his body was gone? God did tell us ahead of time, he would not allow his body to decay.
Ps. 16:10 “For thou wilt not leave my soul (body) in hell (grave); neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption (decay).”
And Paul does explain,
2 Cor. 5:16 “Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.”
Jesus no longer looked the same, which also explains why all his friends did not recognize him by sight.
John 20:15 “Jesus said unto her (Mary Magdalene), Woman, why weepest thou? Whom
seekest thou? She, supposing him to be the gardener, saith unto him, Sir, if thou have born him hence, tell me where thou hast laid him, and I will take him away.”
John 21:4 “But when the morning now was come, Jesus stood on the shore; but the
disciples knew not that it was Jesus.”
Luke 24:15 “And it came to pass, that, while they communed together and reasoned,
Jesus himself drew near, and went with them.”
v. 16 “But their eyes were holden that they should not know him.”
Thomas became a believer because Jesus showed him the wounds, not because he recognized him, John 20:26-29. Jesus could not appear in the same likeness as before, that body had taken on all of our sins, it was the exchange for Adam, it had to remain dead, because that is the penalty for sin, death, Rom. 6:23. Jesus in his spirit body does not look anything like his flesh body that is why all paintings and portraits of him are wrong; including the
Shroud of Turin. Had God allowed an image of his son to appear on that shroud; He would have violated his own second commandment.
Forty days after his resurrection Jesus ascended to heaven. God accepted his sacrifice for all of us, and crowned him with glory, a glorious and divine spirit body and immortality.
John 5:26 “For as the Father has life in himself (immortality); so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself (immortality).”
And raised him to the highest position of honor.
Eph. 1:20 “Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places.”
This was the joy for which he endured the shame and the cross, Heb. 12:2. There is so much the bible wants to tell us, if we were only willing to listen. For instant, how could the Father have given him immortality, if he had it before? How could he have been raised to the highest position of honor, if he had occupied it before? Or, how can he inherit all things, which he already owns?
Heb. 1:2 “Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his son, whom he has appointed heir of all things…”
How could Jesus have been made so much better than the angels?
Heb. 1:4 “Being made so much better than the angels.”
If Jesus was God, could he have been made any more perfect?
Heb. 2:10 “…to make the captain of their salvation perfect through suffering.”
Had Jesus been God, and immortal, he simply could not have died for us, that is what immortality means, death is impossible.
The fact that Jesus rose from the dead is our hope, because he has the keys to unlock the doors to our graves,
Rev. 1:18 “I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell (grave) and of death.”
1 Cor. 15:22 “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.”
v. 23 “But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.”
Referring to the first resurrection. His coming want be anything like what we
have been told. There want be any visible signs or sounds, which will make us look up. We will not see the de
ad raised. Jesus himself told us that his coming would be like a thief, and so did Paul.
Rev. 16:15 “Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, last he walk naked, and they see his shame.”
1 Thes. 5:2 “For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so kometh as a thief in the night.”
The comparison with a thief is to make a point; his coming will not be noticed.
John 5:28 “Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the
graves shall hear his voice.”
v. 29 “And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection; and they
that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.”
For many people that have done great evil to others, it may very well be a resurrection of damnation. All will be resurrected with the same thinking, the same attitudes as when they died.
Ezek. 16:53 “When I shall bring again their captivity, the captivity of Sodom and her daughters, and the captivity of Samaria and her daughters, then will I bring again the captivity of thy captives in the midst of them.”
v. 54 “That thou mayest bear thine own shame, and mayest be confounded in all that thou hast done, in that thou art a comfort unto them.”
v. 55 “When thy sisters, Sodom and her daughters, shall return to their former estate, and Samaria and her daughters shall return to their former estate, then thou and thy daughters shall return to your former estate.”
Ezekiel is saying, not only will Israel and Judah be restored, resurrected, but Sodom and Samaria, meaning all evil nations will be restored to their former estate as well. All will awake from their grave, thinking they have only been sleeping a few hours.
All will be required to repent and ask for forgiveness, there may be those that have done such evil deeds that they can’t or want repent, nor ask for forgiveness; their fait is sealed. The resurrection of the dead will occur during the thousand-year reign of Christ, the Millennium. God designed this period so that all mankind would have the opportunity to learn the truth and repent. It will be the time when Christ will judge the world. But judgment does not come before a trial. We read in,
1 Peter 4:17 “For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and
if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God.”
Judgment means teaching, testing, and trials, proving you are worthy to receive the gift of God, eternal life. The house of God is his Church, the body of Christ, the Saints. Judgment was on them first because they would reign with Christ. For all others their time of judgment will be during the millennium. The end of them that obey not the gospel during the millennium is also mentioned in,
Acts 3:23 “And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet,
shall be destroyed from among his people.”
Which of course is the second death, eternal death, from which there is no resurrection. This raises a question; who has your allegiance, your Church, your Minister or God? Remember,
Is. 8:20 “To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is
because there is no light (understanding) in them.”
Also keep in mind what Paul says in,
1 Thes. 5:21 “Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.”
It is more than good advice!IM4Truth, God bless you Mandy
I want to bring this up again fpr Mandy. I have not seen Her post for a few days and my Husband did not know that, that is why He posted the article on Jesus, which I belief is really good ansd it might help Mandy, I hopePeace and Love Irene
Quote (seek and you will find @ Mar. 31 2008,15:31) Quote (seek and you will find @ Mar. 31 2008,02:17) Hi Mandy
I kind of glanced through this topic, your questions and responses. I don't know the extend of your understanding, or believes, I do know that many people, including ministers, have the relationship between the Father and the Son, wrong. I do not wish to belittle you or anyone else, I just want to share with you the result of my study on Jesus, and hope it will help you somehow.
What is very important is, that you believe the word of God, what it says, not what man implies it says.
If you have specific question later, don't hesitate to ask.WHO IS JESUS?
Jesus had asked his disciples this question once.
Matt. 16:13 “ When Jesus came into the coast of Caesare’a Philip’pi, he asked his disciples, saying, whom do men say that I the son of man am?”
v. 15 “He saith unto them, but whom say ye that I am?”
v. 16 “And Simon Peter answered and said, thou art the Christ, the son of the living God.”
v. 17 “And Jesus answered and said unto him, blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jo’na: for flesh and blood has not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.”
This last verse tells us more than just the fact that God revealed to Peter who Jesus was, it lets us know where understanding of heavenly things come from, God. It should teach us, that with out God’s Holy Spirit we would not understand his word, the Bible, except the historical data contained in it. Hear is what Paul says.
1 Cor. 2:9 “But as it is written, eye has not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heat of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.”
v. 10 “But God has revealed them unto us (believers) by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.”
v. 11 “For what man knoweth the things of man, save the spirit of man which is in him? Even so the things of God knoweth no man but the Spirit of God.”
v. 12 “Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.”
Have you ever ask yourself, why are there so many denominations? Should not all ministers teach the same? They all teach from the same bible, do they not? They are all taught by the same Holy Spirit, are they not?
1 Cor. 1:10 “Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment (teaching).”
Have you ever ask yourself, why do we call the Father, Father? And why do we call Jesus his son? Have you ever checked the definition for Father and Son in you dictionary? I have.
Father: He who gives life to the son.
Son: He who receives life from the Father.
One other observation, shouldn’t it be obvious to assume that the father is older than the son? Why is Jesus called the firstborn? This one should be easy, if you have children, you have a firstborn, boy or girl doesn’t matter. Jesus did not become his Father’s son when he was born of Mary; because that was not the moment he received life.
John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”
Why is this verse so confusing to so many people? The Apostle John is not the only one that referred to the Son of God as the “Word” of the O.T., “Logos” in Greek.
Hear are Jesus own words.
Rev. 19:13 “And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.”
John knew that Jesus was the “Spokesman” for God, the “Word”, because of what he had told them.
John 5:37 “And the Father himself, which has sent me, hath born witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.”
Jesus was the Word, the Spokesperson for the Father, hear on earth. For anyone to think that the “Word” was just a thought in the father’s mind, and became the “Word” when he spoke it, is just plain ridiculous. It would than have to be understood as though God spoke his thought into Mary, and it became his son. That would also mean that, when the son had finished his work hear on earth, he was asking the Father to become a thought again in the Father’s mind, right?
John 17:4 “I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.”
v. 5 “And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.”
Does it not make you wonder where our scholars and theologians get these glorious ideas? Did you notice how verse 5 ended? Before the world was. Jesus is telling us that he existed long before the world was, long before he became one of us, or have you forgotten?
Col. 1:16 “For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or power: all things were created by him, and for him.”
Also, how can we ignore the fact that God sent his son that he gave his son?
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, the he gave his only begotten Son…”
v. 17 “For God sent not his Son onto the world…”
You cannot give; you cannot send, what you don’t have. Pay close attention to the next two verses.
Luke 8:27 “And when he went forth to land, there met him out of the city a certain man, which had devils a long time, and ware no cloth, neither abode in any house, but in the tombs.”
v. 28 “When he saw Jesus, he cried out, and fell down before him, and with a loud voice said, what have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God most high? I beseech thee, torment me not.”
These were demons, they recognized Jesus as the Son of God, they had known him from the time of creation. They were not created demons, they were angels until they sided with Lucifer and rebelled against God. They had shouted for joy when the Son created the earth.
Job 38:4 “Where wast thou when I laid the foundation of the earth?…”
v. 7 “When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy.”
And then there are those that go to the other extreme and say, Jesus had no beginning, he always existed with the Father as a coequal. Read the next three scriptures carefully.
Col. 1:15 “Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature.”
Col. 3:10 “And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image (Jesus) of him (the Father) that created him.”
Rev. 3:14 “…These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God.”
Every parent knows what a firstborn is. Does anyone not know what an image
is? An image is something you make after something or some one, it is a replica, could be
a statue or painting. Who is the one that created him? Would you agree it is the Creator? Why would Jesus say himself, he is the beginning of God’s creation? Do we think he was lying? So, after reading all these scriptures, what is keeping us from believing the truth?
Jesus was made in the image of the father exactly what is this image? Spirit in nature. Adam was created in the image of God.
Gen. 1:26 “And God said, let us make man in our image, after our likeness…”
But Adam was
created flesh not spirit, a different nature; so what image was Adam created in? What is it that the Father, the Son and man have in common? A mind, Paul calls it a spirit.
1 Cor. 2:11 “For what man knoweth the things of man, save the spirit of man which is in him…”
God is a thinker, a planer, a builder and creator, and so are we, God made us that way, but most importantly, he gave us a mind to communicate with him. What animal can do that?
Jesus was not only the first to receive life, but he was also the first to live again after death.
Col. 1:18 “And he is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.”
I believe, anyone that reads Col. 1:15 and 18, and does not believe what it says, it’s not because it is to complicate, it is a simple case of rejecting truth. Preeminence is to be the first in everything. You can read about the beginning of Gods creation, his Son, in the book of Proverbs; it is easiest understood when you read it in the JAMES MOFFAT translation.
Prov. 8:22 “ The Eternal formed me first of his creation, first of all his works in days of old;”
v. 23 “ I was fashioned in the earliest ages, from the very first, when earth began;”
v. 24 “ I was born when there were no abysses, when there were no fountains full of water;”
v. 25 “ ere he sunk the bases of the mountains, ere the hills existed, I was born,”
v. 26 “ when earth and fields were not created, nor the very first clods of the World.”
v. 27 “ When he set the heaven up, I was there, when he drew the Vault o’er the abyss,”
v. 28 “ when he made the clouds firm overhead, when he fixed the fountains of the deep.”
v. 29 “ when he set the boundaries of the sea, when he laid foundations for the earth;”
v. 30 “ I was with him then, his foster child, I was his delight day after day, playing in His presence constantly.”
Read what Paul is teaching the saints.
Acts 13:33 “God has fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second Psalms, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.”
You just read the account of the first time God raised up his Son, Prov. 8:23-30. The second time was from the dead. You have to be blind if you can’t see who is being talked about hear. That is exactly why we read in,
John 1:1 “ In the beginning was the Word… (Jesus was the Word).”
When we read in,
Gen. 1:1 “ In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth…”
We have no problem understanding that the earth or the universe for that matter did not always existed, that they had a beginning; why then do we give “ beginning“ a different meaning when it comes to the Son of God, Jesus Christ? Do we think we dishonor Jesus by believing the truth? Or do we think we honor Jesus more by raising him to the same level of his Father? The Father has already raised the son to the highest position; if we try to do more we dishonor the Father.
Someone called Jesus good once.
Luke 18:18 “And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?”
Jesus rebuked him by saying,
v. 19 “And Jesus said unto him, why callest thou me good? None is good, save one, that is, God.”
If Jesus were God he would have never denied being good. That of course does not imply that he wasn’t.
Heb. 10:12 “But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down
on the right hand of God.” (Highest position of honor)
We acknowledge the fact that Jesus came to save us, but we also say that he was both flesh and spirit. Why is that false? It would have made Jesus a mixture of two natures; he would have been a hybrid. God hates perversion of his creation; he destroyed the world with a flood once because of it.
Gen. 6:1 “And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth,
and daughters were born unto them.”
v. 2 “That the sons of God (angels) saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and
they took them wives of all which they chose.”
v. 4 “There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of
God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.”
v. 7 “And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the
earth…”
v. 12 “And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had
corrupted his way upon the earth.”
These are not Satan’s demons that corrupted God’s way, these are angels that looked down from heaven and were tempted by the beauty of the woman. Read what Jude and Peter have to say,
Jude 6 “And the angels which kept not their first estate (heaven), but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.”
v. 7 “Even as Sodom and Gomor’rha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving
themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh…”
2 Peter 2:4 “For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment.”
These angels that sinned, corrupting God’s creation, apparently committed a greater sin than Satan and his demons. God locked them up in a prison, and would not allow them to roam the world. God was angry; he did not create humans to become half spirit, or spirit beings to become half humans. God created all after their kind,
Gen. 1:21 “And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.”
v. 24 “And God said, let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, and
creeping things, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.”
v. 25 “And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind,
and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.”
After their kind meaning their nature. Paul gives us this explanation;
1 Cor. 15:39 “All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men,
another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.”
v. 40 “There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial; but the glory of the
celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.”
God created all things for His glory. So then, why did God spared Noah and his family?
Gen. 6:9 “These are the generations of Noah; Noah was a just man and perfect in his
generation, and Noah walked with God.”
What does “perfect in his generations” mean? Noah and his family were the only pure humans left; all others flesh had been corrupted. To mix two kinds creates a hybrid and is an insult to God. The bible does tell us that Jesus was not a mixture of two natures,
Heb. 2:16 “For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the
seed of Abraham.(flesh)”
Jesus came to ransom Adam from the grave and all of us. Adam was flesh, and Jesus had to be of the same nature as the one he was coming to redeem. And only someone that was not affected by Adam’s sin could accomplish this. Adam’s sin made him unclean,
Job 14:4 “Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean?”
Rom. 5:12 “Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and so death passed
upon all men, for that all have sinned.”
Rom. 6:23 “For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord,”
Jesus said he came to ransom many.
Matt. 20:28 “Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered
unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.”
What is a ransom? During wartime prisoners of war were ransomed for other prisoners of war, it was an exchange. Jesus came to trade places with Adam. Jesus took Adams sin, and placed it on himself, freeing Adam from the grave, and taking his place in the grave. God gave Jesus back his true nature, spirit, the flesh body of Christ remained in the grave, and so the penalty for sin was paid. God of course disposed of the body for obvious reasons. People have worshiped religious objects for centuries. Crosses with bone fragments of saints are especially sought after. Many Christians consider the shroud of Turin the most holy object, worthy of worship. Can you imagine how people would have treaded the body of Christ, had God left him in the tomb?
We are all sinners and deserve death but for now we die for Adam’s sin; or how would you explain the death of infants and little children that know no sin. If we were to die for our sins now, then these little ones should live at least until they have committed a sin. Our only hope was in Jesus Christ who was not of our nature and not effected by the curse of death. God changed his spirit body into a human body; this change did not affect his mind, for he knew who he was, where he came from and why he had come. Jesus knew about his mission from creation,
Rev. 13:8 “And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the earth.”
Although tempted in all things he remained sinless, it was his body that took on our sins, and he became sin for us. In his spirit, his mind, in his heart, he remained without sin.
2 Cor. 5:21 “For he has made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be
made the righteousness of God in him.”
Failure was not an option; it would have meant the end of his existence as well as all of ours. Jesus experienced all the things we do in our life, real thirst, real hunger, real pain and death.
Heb. 2:18 “For that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them
that are tempted.”
Heb. 4:15 “For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of
our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.”
Jesus endured it all because his mind was on the eternal not on the temporal.
Heb. 12:2 “Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that
was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the
right hand of the throne of God.”
Jesus died and was placed in a tomb, and right hear is were ministers run into a contradiction by what they teach. They say that Jesus was not really dead, that instead he went to “hell”, and preached to the spirits, using this scripture.
1 Pet. 3:19 “By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison.”
First of all, to say that Jesus went to “hell” is an assumption; the scripture does not say that. Second, to say that these were the souls of deceased sinners, is an assumption too, the scripture does not say that either. Third, to say that you are alive after you die, claiming you have an immortal soul is in total opposition to the word of God. Finally, assuming Jesus went to hell, what prevented him from being tormented by the flames? So, who are these spirits, and what is there prison? It seems that the scripture that gives us the answer has been completely overlooked, or ignored.
v. 20 “Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing…”
These spirits are spirit beings, angels, which were disobedient in that they married woman, and produced hybrids. They are the once responsible for the flood, which I referred to a few pages back. Read Jude 6 and 7 and 2 Pet. 2:4 again. It was during the construction of the ark, in the days of Noah, that these spirits, angels, were preached to, told what would await them in the day of final judgment, but they are not being tormented by flames now.
Jesus died; trusting the Father he would raise him up, after three days and three nights, God did raise him up. Jesus was given back his true nature, spirit. His flesh body had taken on all of our sins, was no longer needed and God disposed of it. And why should that have surprised any one, that his body was gone? God did tell us ahead of time, he would not allow his body to decay.
Ps. 16:10 “For thou wilt not leave my soul (body) in hell (grave); neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption (decay).”
And Paul does explain,
2 Cor. 5:16 “Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.”
Jesus no longer looked the same, which also explains why all his friends did not recognize him by sight.
John 20:15 “Jesus said unto her (Mary Magdalene), Woman, why weepest thou? Whom
seekest thou? She, supposing him to be the gardener, saith unto him, Sir, if thou have born him hence, tell me where thou hast laid him, and I will take him away.”
John 21:4 “But when the morning now was come, Jesus stood on the shore; but the
disciples knew not that it was Jesus.”
Luke 24:15 “And it came to pass, that, while they communed together and reasoned,
Jesus himself drew near, and went with them.”
v. 16 “But their eyes were holden that they should not know him.”
Thomas became a believer because Jesus showed him the wounds, not because he recognized him, John 20:26-29. Jesus could not appear in the same likeness as before, that body had taken on all of our sins, it was the exchange for Adam, it had to remain dead, because that is the penalty for sin, death, Rom. 6:23. Jesus in his spirit body does not look anything like his flesh body that is why all paintings and portraits of him are wrong; including the
Shroud of Turin. Had God allowed an image of his son to appear on that shroud; He would have violated his own second commandment.
Forty days after his resurrection Jesus ascended to heaven. God accepted his sacrifice for all of us, and crowned him with glory, a glorious and divine spirit body and immortality.
John 5:26 “For as the Father has life in himself (immortality); so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself (immortality).”
And raised him to the highest position of honor.
Eph. 1:20 “Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places.”
This was the joy for which he endured the shame and the cross, Heb. 12:2. There is so much the bible wants to tell us, if we were only willing to listen. For instant, how could the Father have given him immortality, if he had it before? How could he have been raised to the highest position of honor, if he had occupied it before? Or, how can he inherit all things, which he already owns?
Heb. 1:2 “Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his son, whom he has appointed heir of all things…”
How could Jesus have been made so much better than the angels?
Heb. 1:4 “Being made so much better than the angels.”
If Jesus was God, could he have been made any more perfect?
Heb. 2:10 “…to make the captain of their salvation perfect through suffering.”
Had Jesus been God, and immortal, he simply could not have died for us, that is what immortality means, death is impossible.
The fact that Jesus rose from the dead is our hope, because he has the keys to unlock the doors to our graves,
Rev. 1:18 “I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell (grave) and of death.”
1 Cor. 15:22 “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.”
v. 23 “But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits;
afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.”
Referring to the first resurrection. His coming want be anything like what we
have been told. There want be any visible signs or sounds, which will make us look up. We will not see the dead raised. Jesus himself told us that his coming would be like a thief, and so did Paul.
Rev. 16:15 “Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, last he walk naked, and they see his shame.”
1 Thes. 5:2 “For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so kometh as a thief in the night.”
The comparison with a thief is to make a point; his coming will not be noticed.
John 5:28 “Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the
graves shall hear his voice.”
v. 29 “And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection; and they
that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.”
For many people that have done great evil to others, it may very well be a resurrection of damnation. All will be resurrected with the same thinking, the same attitudes as when they died.
Ezek. 16:53 “When I shall bring again their captivity, the captivity of Sodom and her daughters, and the captivity of Samaria and her daughters, then will I bring again the captivity of thy captives in the midst of them.”
v. 54 “That thou mayest bear thine own shame, and mayest be confounded in all that thou hast done, in that thou art a comfort unto them.”
v. 55 “When thy sisters, Sodom and her daughters, shall return to their former estate, and Samaria and her daughters shall return to their former estate, then thou and thy daughters shall return to your former estate.”
Ezekiel is saying, not only will Israel and Judah be restored, resurrected, but Sodom and Samaria, meaning all evil nations will be restored to their former estate as well. All will awake from their grave, thinking they have only been sleeping a few hours.
All will be required to repent and ask for forgiveness, there may be those that have done such evil deeds that they can’t or want repent, nor ask for forgiveness; their fait is sealed. The resurrection of the dead will occur during the thousand-year reign of Christ, the Millennium. God designed this period so that all mankind would have the opportunity to learn the truth and repent. It will be the time when Christ will judge the world. But judgment does not come before a trial. We read in,
1 Peter 4:17 “For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and
if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God.”
Judgment means teaching, testing, and trials, proving you are worthy to receive the gift of God, eternal life. The house of God is his Church, the body of Christ, the Saints. Judgment was on them first because they would reign with Christ. For all others their time of judgment will be during the millennium. The end of them that obey not the gospel during the millennium is also mentioned in,
Acts 3:23 “And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet,
shall be destroyed from among his people.”
Which of course is the second death, eternal death, from which there is no resurrection. This raises a question; who has your allegiance, your Church, your Minister or God? Remember,
Is. 8:20 “To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is
because there is no light (understanding) in them.”
Also keep in mind what Paul says in,
1 Thes. 5:21 “Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.”
It is more than good advice!IM4Truth, God bless you Mandy
I want to bring this up again fpr Mandy. I have not seen Her post for a few days and my Husband did not know that, that is why He posted the article on Jesus, which I belief is really good ansd it might help Mandy, I hopePeace and Love Irene
I don't think even David has managed to post this much in one go!Stuart
Quote (Samuel @ Mar. 31 2008,09:26) Because …Satan is influencing them thats why.
'John' and Paul really have won you over with their propaganda!Stuart
Will resist jokes that add the names George and Ringo…
Quote I don't think even David has managed to post this much in one go! Stuart
No, I have several times. The thing I find is, people are much much less willing to read the larger posts. You're better breaking it up into smaller posts, or simply underlining a few main points out of such large posts, so that at least they read those.
Quote (seek and you will find @ Mar. 31 2008,15:31) I want to bring this up again fpr Mandy. I have not seen Her post for a few days and my Husband did not know that, that is why He posted the article on Jesus, which I belief is really good ansd it might help Mandy, I hope
No, I didn't see it. I've been pretty busy lately and really only checking in for short periods of time (and usually when I'm too tired to make sense of anything honestly.)Thank you so much and please tell your husband thank you for me. That is kind of him to think of me. I am struggling, it's true. But I feel more and more that there is a compromise between faith and reason. I'm finding that peace that passes understanding. Praise God!
Love to all,
MandyQuote (Not3in1 @ Mar. 31 2008,18:41) Quote (seek and you will find @ Mar. 31 2008,15:31) I want to bring this up again fpr Mandy. I have not seen Her post for a few days and my Husband did not know that, that is why He posted the article on Jesus, which I belief is really good ansd it might help Mandy, I hope
No, I didn't see it. I've been pretty busy lately and really only checking in for short periods of time (and usually when I'm too tired to make sense of anything honestly.)Thank you so much and please tell your husband thank you for me. That is kind of him to think of me. I am struggling, it's true. But I feel more and more that there is a compromise between faith and reason. I'm finding that peace that passes understanding. Praise God!
Love to all,
Mandy
Hi Mandy! Good to hear from you, and I am happy that you are at peace. Yes, my Husband is a very compassinate man and thinks of others. If you have other questions just ask Him.
I also would like to make you aware of what Samuel is planning on doing with the Ventrilo Server. I am getting a mic today and want to try it. I hope you will join us. It is in the Feedback Section.Peace and Love Irene
Quote (seek and you will find @ Mar. 30 2008,22:31) I want to bring this up again fpr Mandy. I have not seen Her post for a few days and my Husband did not know that, that is why He posted the article on Jesus, which I belief is really good ansd it might help Mandy, I hope Peace and Love Irene
I think she has under her old username, Not3in1.Quote (kejonn @ Mar. 31 2008,21:35) Oops, didn't see her response above 
.
Come on kejonn that single line won't do. 10 paragraphs per post is the minimum in this thread now.Stuart
Quote (Samuel @ Mar. 31 2008,09:26) Because …Satan is influencing them thats why.
That is a lame excuse. Whenever someone reaches a dead-end in their reasoning or logic they fall back to the old line of “it is not written” and they are influenced by the devil, Satan, unclean spirits or whatever. I could make the same claim to anyone who disagrees with me. It is neither helpful or enlightening.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 31 2008,07:28) Hi cato,
So God must submit to the logical moral reasonings of men?
Then your god is not our God.Why would anyone try to fit our God into their ignorant moral framework?
No, God does not submit to anything, but our understanding of such should. I worship a God that is the Creator of the entire universe, all-knowing and all-powerful, one who loves all his creation. The laws of nature are ordered and logical, they show us more of the true nature of the Creator then a collection of anonymous writings compiled by an old emperor.The god you evidently follow is limited, makes mistakes, exhibits negative human emotions (wrath, jealousy, regret). negotiates with lesser beings, demands worship and sacrifice, has favorite groups of people, etc.. That is what creates an ignorant moral framework. The OT depiction is like any number of old pagan gods who most now view as myth, or you more then likely would view as infernal agents.
Some don't even reach the dead-end in reasoning or logic. Supposedly we are not to use our God-given intellect.
Quote (Cato @ Mar. 31 2008,06:34) No, God does not submit to anything, but our understanding of such should. I worship a God that is the Creator of the entire universe, all-knowing and all-powerful, one who loves all his creation. The laws of nature are ordered and logical, they show us more of the true nature of the Creator then a collection of anonymous writings compiled by an old emperor.
You should check out http://www.vohuman.org Cato.Quote (kejonn @ Mar. 31 2008,06:37) Quote (Cato @ Mar. 31 2008,06:34) No, God does not submit to anything, but our understanding of such should. I worship a God that is the Creator of the entire universe, all-knowing and all-powerful, one who loves all his creation. The laws of nature are ordered and logical, they show us more of the true nature of the Creator then a collection of anonymous writings compiled by an old emperor.
You should check out http://www.vohuman.org Cato.
If you get the change you might keep tabs on this thread as well: http://www.findingbelievers.org/forum/viewtopic.php?id=107Quote (Cato @ Mar. 31 2008,23:34) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 31 2008,07:28) Hi cato,
So God must submit to the logical moral reasonings of men?
Then your god is not our God.Why would anyone try to fit our God into their ignorant moral framework?
No, God does not submit to anything, but our understanding of such should. I worship a God that is the Creator of the entire universe, all-knowing and all-powerful, one who loves all his creation. The laws of nature are ordered and logical, they show us more of the true nature of the Creator then a collection of anonymous writings compiled by an old emperor.The god you evidently follow is limited, makes mistakes, exhibits negative human emotions (wrath, jealousy, regret). negotiates with lesser beings, demands worship and sacrifice, has favorite groups of people, etc.. That is what creates an ignorant moral framework. The OT depiction is like any number of old pagan gods who most now view as myth, or you more then likely would view as infernal agents.
Hi cato,
So your God is made according to your expectations?
Another strange god.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 31 2008,13:23) Quote (Cato @ Mar. 31 2008,23:34) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 31 2008,07:28) Hi cato,
So God must submit to the logical moral reasonings of men?
Then your god is not our God.Why would anyone try to fit our God into their ignorant moral framework?
No, God does not submit to anything, but our understanding of such should. I worship a God that is the Creator of the entire universe, all-knowing and all-powerful, one who loves all his creation. The laws of nature are ordered and logical, they show us more of the true nature of the Creator then a collection of anonymous writings compiled by an old emperor.The god you evidently follow is limited, makes mistakes, exhibits negative human emotions (wrath, jealousy, regret). negotiates with lesser beings, demands worship and sacrifice, has favorite groups of people, etc.. That is what creates an ignorant moral framework. The OT depiction is like any number of old pagan gods who most now view as myth, or you more then likely would view as infernal agents.
Hi cato,
So your God is made according to your expectations?
Another strange god.
What's worse, God according to a modern man's expectations, or a God who the Jews thought to keep all to themselves? At least Cato does not cast a view of a God who revels in the death of the enemies of the Jews.
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