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Bro 94,
It helps tremendously, thank you so much for taking the time to paste all these scriptures together. Now I can plainly see how you come up with your belief system. I wonder though, maybe I'm dense (which is entirely possible
), but I still see how the “son” or the “king” prophesied is someone other than Jesus. The reason I lean towards this idea is because the scriptures talk about something happening at the time this person appears, and Jesus did not accomplish what the scriptures say. Plus, the majority of scriptures you listed are clearly talking about Solomon. Am I wrong? Maybe I am completely missing the inferences made to Jesus?Quote Isaiah 11 1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: 2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD; 3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears: 4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove F64 with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked. 5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.
Here is my ignorance showing, but couldn't Solomon also fit this description? If not, why?
Quote Luke 1:30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. 31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
Here I definitely see the connection between the OT prophesy and the NT fulfillment in Jesus. But then again, it's the NT.
The OT never really directly spoke of “Jesus”.
Quote For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, 35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
I never really thought about this before, but could David have known about Jesus and that he would be the One to sit on his throne forever? I wonder how that made David feel to know his great, great, whatever, grandchild would inherit the throne and sit on it forever? Wow.The Spirit is working on me. It's almost too much to bear at times, I'll be honest. The doubt mixed with overwhelming assurance is quite confusing right now. But I thank you all for being so patient and kind. Especially for taking me through these scriptures and pointing out the obvious (which I tend to gloss over for some reason – pride, maybe?).
Love to all,
MandyQuote (Mandy @ Mar. 10 2008,15:32) Bro 94, It helps tremendously, thank you so much for taking the time to paste all these scriptures together. Now I can plainly see how you come up with your belief system. I wonder though, maybe I'm dense (which is entirely possible
), but I still see how the “son” or the “king” prophesied is someone other than Jesus. The reason I lean towards this idea is because the scriptures talk about something happening at the time this person appears, and Jesus did not accomplish what the scriptures say. Plus, the majority of scriptures you listed are clearly talking about Solomon. Am I wrong? Maybe I am completely missing the inferences made to Jesus?Quote Isaiah 11 1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: 2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD; 3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears: 4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove F64 with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked. 5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.
Here is my ignorance showing, but couldn't Solomon also fit this description? If not, why?
Quote Luke 1:30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. 31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
Here I definitely see the connection between the OT prophesy and the NT fulfillment in Jesus. But then again, it's the NT.The OT never really directly spoke of “Jesus”.
Quote For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, 35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
I never really thought about this before, but could David have known about Jesus and that he would be the One to sit on his throne forever? I wonder how that made David feel to know his great, great, whatever, grandchild would inherit the throne and sit on it forever? Wow.The Spirit is working on me. It's almost too much to bear at times, I'll be honest. The doubt mixed with overwhelming assurance is quite confusing right now. But I thank you all for being so patient and kind. Especially for taking me through these scriptures and pointing out the obvious (which I tend to gloss over for some reason – pride, maybe?).
Love to all,
Mandy
Mandy Dont be confused just except the truth the way it is written. God's holy Spirit will guide you in all things, just have faith in that, and you will see how it works. It has worked for me so far. We are under Jesus Blood and that is why w can be bold and cry out Abba Father. Thank you Lord for all that you have done for us. Just always remember that God loves you, that He has send His only begotten Son into the world to save the world, so that through Him we might be saved.
Peace and Love IreneThanks, Irene. I know you have been praying for me and I truly appreciate those prayers right now!
It's funny, I've been a believer all my life and yet now I feel as though I need to have the gospel told to me all over again. I guess I never graduated from the milk feeding although I thought I was so wise?
Quote (Mandy @ Mar. 10 2008,16:29) Thanks, Irene. I know you have been praying for me and I truly appreciate those prayers right now! It's funny, I've been a believer all my life and yet now I feel as though I need to have the gospel told to me all over again. I guess I never graduated from the milk feeding although I thought I was so wise?
Mandy! I wonder if you realize how much God loves you. You are a humble person and God see's that. Sometimes we also have to hit bottom again that is how we grow. One step at the time. Not always easy is it? The road is step and few will find it.
Peace and Love IreneHi Mandy:
What I do, I do out of my Love for God and for humanity. Feel free to ask any question that you may have, and I will give you my understanding. Frankly, there are some things that I don't understand, and I am praying that God will help me. I have been trying to make sense of the genealogy of Jesus that the gospel of Luke gives. He uses many names that I can't find in the OT.
But about your question:
Quote Quote
Isaiah 111 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: 2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD; 3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears: 4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove F64 with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked. 5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.
Here is my ignorance showing, but couldn't Solomon also fit this description? If not, why?
No, this does not refer to Solomon because continuing this scripture, verse 11:10 states:
Quote Isaiah 11:10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious. God Bless
Quote (Mandy @ Mar. 10 2008,16:29) Thanks, Irene. I know you have been praying for me and I truly appreciate those prayers right now! It's funny, I've been a believer all my life and yet now I feel as though I need to have the gospel told to me all over again. I guess I never graduated from the milk feeding although I thought I was so wise?
Mandy,Progression is rarely a straight line, one must often take a step back to progress to the next level. When I was younger I used to be a fencer, and my fencing master stepped in and changed my parrying technique, for while good enough for my current level of play, it would hurt me later. As I changed techniques, for quite awhile I played worse as I was learning the new method. Eventually I got it down and my play was able to advance to higher level and so became a better fencer later. I believe your spirit is going in a like direction, you question and are giving up some ideas and beliefs that perhaps you have outgrown and are developing new ones more suited to where your heading. You are evolving spiritually, just remember it is evolution not revolution, you don't throw out everything, for not everything was flawed or perhaps more correctly oversimplified. We all evolve at different rates so don't dismay that where you may be heading is different from your friends. Many here seem to make life a test and how you do determines your everlasting fate. I believe life is a school and were all learning and God adapts this learning based on the needs of our individual souls.
Quote (Mandy @ Mar. 01 2008,04:14) Quote (theodorej @ Mar. 01 2008,01:58) I think Mandys' question regarding the messiah and the second coming is a challenging one…
I wish the answer to all questions of that type could be
“Just have faith” as Mandy referenced We are told to prove all things and that also includes our own faith.
It is very scary when you believe something and you don't know why.
To address Mandys question….The OT is repleat with references to the Messiah…It is the essense of Judaic
doctrine (to look forward to the coming Messiah ) The unfortunate thing for the Jews ,with exception of a few,
they failed to see he was among them and they killed him.
During his ministry he spoke volumenusly about his second coming.
ISIAH 53 is part of Jewish cannon and quit visebly describes
the Messiah they are waiting for and that text was written 700 years before Jesus…
Hi Theo,Thanks for your post.
I just addressed Isa. 53 in another post. It's scary to think this is the ONLY (with exception to Daniel), that folks can turn to and say, “See! Look! There's Jesus!”. Well, to be quite frank, I don't buy that for a dollar. I think, you think, it speaks of Jesus. But it is not crystal clear. It's not even moderately clear. It is supposed that Jesus is there because of our indoctrination, and so we see Jesus there.
But I have read other explainations for Isa. 53 that are just as plausable as it speaking of Jesus. So, it sure makes me wonder that if there are other explainations for this passage, and it's one of only a couple that *could* reflect this type of information about Jesus – should we sell all and burying our treasure in this field?
The word “caution” comes to mind.
Greetings Mandy….Allow me to use a metaphor….”If it looks like a duck and it quacks like a duck and even walks like a duck” Iam inclined to think it is a duck….a true contrarian would say it is a goose or some other reasonable facimile there of….
I would think that the old testament speaks to The children of Israel which is to include the Jews on issues such as law and in general how to live according to them….Jesus' ministry spoke of the second coming at a time when organized religion was still holding on to a legalistic form of worship while waiting for the messiah…
The authors of the OT were just those type of people…Quote (Cato @ Mar. 11 2008,02:36) Quote (Mandy @ Mar. 10 2008,16:29) Thanks, Irene. I know you have been praying for me and I truly appreciate those prayers right now! It's funny, I've been a believer all my life and yet now I feel as though I need to have the gospel told to me all over again. I guess I never graduated from the milk feeding although I thought I was so wise?
Mandy,Progression is rarely a straight line, one must often take a step back to progress to the next level. When I was younger I used to be a fencer, and my fencing master stepped in and changed my parrying technique, for while good enough for my current level of play, it would hurt me later. As I changed techniques, for quite awhile I played worse as I was learning the new method. Eventually I got it down and my play was able to advance to higher level and so became a better fencer later. I believe your spirit is going in a like direction, you question and are giving up some ideas and beliefs that perhaps you have outgrown and are developing new ones more suited to where your heading. You are evolving spiritually, just remember it is evolution not revolution, you don't throw out everything, for not everything was flawed or perhaps more correctly oversimplified. We all evolve at different rates so don't dismay that where you may be heading is different from your friends. Many here seem to make life a test and how you do determines your everlasting fate. I believe life is a school and were all learning and God adapts this learning based on the needs of our individual souls.
Hi cato,
The walk of life includes a gate that none should refuse to go through.
The gate of Jesus into the kingdom of God.
You must be born again.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 11 2008,06:31) You must be born again.
I think that is what Cato was referring to – you don't throw away everything (like the need to be born again), but there are some things that can and should be called into question. Strict adherence to some points should be held lightly in light of the knowledge that scripture is indeed flawed.But thank you for the reminder, Nick, that according to the message of Jesus, we should be born again.
Quote (Cato @ Mar. 11 2008,02:36) I believe life is a school and were all learning and God adapts this learning based on the needs of our individual souls.
And what a relief this is to know! I certainly think more highly of myself than I ought to
I have learned through searching and delving into deep subjects that what I thought I knew, well, it wasn't much.One thing I believe I will keep (while deciding what to throw away) is the sensitivity to realize that no one group or person has absolute truth (sorry David, but no one can claim this regardless of your examples and senerios). I can only hope that I am pleasing God by trying to do my best with what I've got. As for arguing and standing up for certain Christian beliefs – I just don't have it in my anymore. I've seen too many holes shot into various dogma's to believe that any one of them can stand up to a rigorous inspection.
I will also keep my belief in Jesus. He may not have actually been the man who is recorded in the flawed words of the bible, but I do believe he existed. I believe his life was sacrificial. And I even believe God sent him and placed his Spirit on him to minister and to lead us to himself. I believe this wholeheartedly now because this is how I came to know God (through Jesus). So if it worked for me, it has to be real. Whether or not he is the Messiah, I don't know. Scripture is not completely cohesive enough for me to make that determination. And I've learned that it is OK not to know for sure either.
I will throw away the idea that any one person or group has the complete answer or truth. And I will always be skeptical of the parts of the bible that don't seem to speak of a God who is capable of being fair or even reasonable in his efforts to guide his children. I question certain stories and certain teachings as they may have been added by someone with a personal/political agenda.
I don't believe we are called to obey every word written in ink.
Hi mandy,
So you have laid the right foundation stone if you have obeyed Jesus command. Knowledge is added to truth. We will never have complete knowledge but it is of no concern in comparison with what faith guarantees.I honestly think the “Church” will be “Caught-Up” in the Rapture before this actual Anti-Christ comes to Power in its full “Evilness”.
Quote (Samuel @ Mar. 28 2008,11:11) I honestly think the “Church” will be “Caught-Up” in the Rapture before this actual Anti-Christ comes to Power in its full “Evilness”.
The problem is which church, and when. Everyone naturally feels their way is right and evidently narrow enough that the others are some how wrong, so you had better be in that “one right church”. As for timing it may come tomorrow or in a billion years, probability dictates later then sooner at least in the perspective of our brief lifespans. So looking for the emergency exit is unlikely. As for the anti-christ, well there are a lot of all too human beasts in today's world from Darfur to the Congo, the Taliban to Al Qaeda, that need people who love God and humanity to stand up to. I hope Samuel, that God grants you that rapture before the end times, but prudence dictates you had better be prepared for a long life in this world with today's evils and challenges.Cato,
That matches something I read by a blogger recently. I liked it. Here it is from http://ironwolf.dangerousgames.com/blog/archives/483. Ironwolf said:
- Or, here’s a scary thought: what if the return of Jesus is really a symbolic, spiritual concept, and the “soon” God is speaking of is the end of your mortal life, and the time of your testing is right now, and God is testing all you believers to see whether you will truly fight to be good stewards and make the world He created a better place for all His creation, and that most “Christians” are failing the test like wet toilet paper because they’re so fixated on Superhero Jesus returning in the next few years and wiping up their mess that they let themselves sink into a pitiful, pious, apathetic funk and can’t be bothered to lift a finger (much less work together) to solve the problems that face everything and everyone on Earth?
Quote (kejonn @ Mar. 29 2008,00:17) Cato, That matches something I read by a blogger recently. I liked it. Here it is from http://ironwolf.dangerousgames.com/blog/archives/483. Ironwolf said:
- Or, here’s a scary thought: what if the return of Jesus is really a symbolic, spiritual concept, and the “soon” God is speaking of is the end of your mortal life, and the time of your testing is right now, and God is testing all you believers to see whether you will truly fight to be good stewards and make the world He created a better place for all His creation, and that most “Christians” are failing the test like wet toilet paper because they’re so fixated on Superhero Jesus returning in the next few years and wiping up their mess that they let themselves sink into a pitiful, pious, apathetic funk and can’t be bothered to lift a finger (much less work together) to solve the problems that face everything and everyone on Earth?
Does the OT indicate that god has this much sophistication?Stuart
With GOD all things are possible.
He is not limited to this universe and the laws that govern it.
He made it. He controls it…it don't control him.
haha…
sophistication
Its like less than common sense to GOD I would imagine. He is faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaar greater then any feeble word we can make or come up with.
Quote (Samuel @ Mar. 30 2008,08:57) With GOD all things are possible. He is not limited to this universe and the laws that govern it.
He made it. He controls it…it don't control him.
haha…
sophistication
Its like less than common sense to GOD I would imagine. He is faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaar greater then any feeble word we can make or come up with.
Exactly Samuel, so why does the OT try and portray him as a being capable of regret, jealousy and anger. One who cares for one group of people more then all others. One who actually makes mistakes? Sounds like they got God wrong there wouldn't you agree?Hi cato,
Do you think God is a sinner because of how he is revealed in the OT?
Perhaps Paul too?2Cor11
1Would to God ye could bear with me a little in my folly: and indeed bear with me.2For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.
I think you do not understand righteousness.
That is shown us by the Spirit.John 16:8
And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 30 2008,10:56) Hi cato,
Do you think God is a sinner because of how he is revealed in the OT?
Perhaps Paul too?2Cor11
1Would to God ye could bear with me a little in my folly: and indeed bear with me.2For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.
I think you do not understand righteousness.
That is shown us by the Spirit.John 16:8
And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
I'd be interested to know if you have an answer to Cato's question. Did they get god wrong in the OT? You can't ignore the change of character from a Jewish god seemingly made in our image to a christian one who is omnipotent and omniscient.Stuart
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