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Mandy,
You are very correct when you point out the motivating factor of fear in regards to these discussions, I myself while rejecting a lot of what I have been taught or read still have this occasional nagging fear of what if I am wrong and they are actually right? Yet when put in a larger context what if any particular religion, not just evangelical Christianity, is right? Fortunately for me age, wisdom and personal revelation (my apologies to Stuart) have minimized my fear of being wrong and heading to hell, hades, tartarus, the abyss or whatever. That is not to say they ever go away completely, even for those of a skeptical nature. Many use this tool of fear intentionally as a means to promote their message. Even those who have a benificient purpose use this tool, much less the murcky cult leaders who are master's of such tactics. When you disagree they are quick to point out you are being deceived by infernal agents…( am I? What if I'm wrong? Eternal punishment in the pits of some netherworld? I can't take the chance!) they are effective. This is not to say people need to refrain on warning others on making bad decisions, but they should not use fear as a basis to dispute reasonable intellectual intercourse such as is largely practiced here. I thought one of the purposes of this site was for people like Mandy, who have questions and are looking for answers! Not for those of us (like myself) who just like to pontificate. Labeling Mandy as was done here does not help her see the “light” but rather, if anything, makes her turn away for it looks more like judgement then help. It is sad for this Christian site when more honest and polite support comes from the athiest and the heretics then the labeled “believers” (Timothy VI being a notable exception, sorry Tim didn't mean to paint all the believers with such a broad brush, just trying to make a point without castigating the particular individual by name).Hi Cato,
OK I freely admit I'm an emotional female, and your post has sent the tears rolling. Dont' get me wrong, I'm not a cry-baby, but I'm also not afraid of vulnerable emotions. My husband knows that something has touched my soul when I cry, for instance. I don't just cry because a puppy got ran over by a car. Oh, wait, maybe I would cry about that……oh, good grief!
My point is that I am touched by your insight to my genuine concerns. I'm not just talking about doubt or the ocassional look at various scriptures that don't match-up. I'm talking about leaving a religion! I'm weighing the evidence. I'm gathering data. I'm fasting/praying/doing a sun-dance! Well okay, no sun-dance, but I'm trying to get to the bottom of truth. Who wouldn't want to know the real truth? And if we are beleiving something that is false or not written – shouldn't we stop? Stop, turn-around, shake it off and look up? Am I the only one who is shaking their head saying, “What?!” to responses like, “Just have faith.” when it's obvious we have a problem Houston!
I'm glad that I am getting through to someone, thank you Cato. I'm glad to know that I am not completely crazy or just wacked in my antichrist state. Seriously, looking to other Christians for support can be tricky business. I've learned that just because you appear wise doesn't mean that you really are. It's been an eye-opener for me.
Anyway, God bless bro. I'm rambling this morning. I need to go meet God and do some serious worshiping and sitting at his feet. Maybe if I shut my mouth long enough, he'll speak to me.
Love to all,
MandyMandy! Have talked to my Husband and He like myself do believe that Jesus is mentioned in Isaiah 53 for instant. That chapter mainly speaks of his crucifixion.
Is. 9:6-7This verse speaks of the future government which will be on His shoulder. That is the Kingdom in the future. Some say that Jesus has already started that Kingdom and it is spiritual. Not seen by Human eyes. It takes time to prepare those that will sit with Jesus on His throne and are King and Priests in the Millenium.
Daniel 2:44 ” And in the days of these Kings the God of Heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed…….
That speaks of Jesus second coming, not His first.
One more thing that I thought about last night, I believe that the Mysteries of God has been given to His Saints. We do know by the New Testament that Jesus is our Messiah. When I read Isaiah I find Jesus. When I read in Daniel I find prophecy of speaking about Jesus. About the end times. Also Daniel did not understand and asked what it meant. And God said to Him, close up this Book it is for the end times. Now knowledge has increased and we do understand. In the Old Testament times only certain people received God's Holy Spirit, today we all have the Holy Spirit those that have been born again. I also believe that we all grow at different spaces and that makes it so difficult to agree with each other.I somehow have the feeling tho that this is not good enough for you. But to me it is. I have no doubt that the Old Testament does not speak of Jesus. Even if it did not, it does in the new.Paul and the Apostles were eye witnesses to Jesus crucifixtion. James the Brother of Jesus was an eye witness. Tell you the truth I rather believe in the Bible rather then to anybody else.
Peace and Love Irene
OKay, Irene, thanks very much. Tell you husband thank you for me, too.
Your views don't have to be “good enough for me”, they are your views and I learn from those who are willing to share their views. We all have to work out our own salvation, but it helps me to see how other's (including you and your hubby) are working out theirs. You have given me scriptures and reasons why you believe, that is definitely good enough for me and I thank you kindly.
I'll ponder tonight what you have shared.
Love,
MandyQuote (kejonn @ Feb. 29 2008,00:09) That was just a counter to what Nick was trying to prove. Just curious, can you give me examples of miracles you've encountered? Gene mentioned the same and I asked him but he never gave any examples.
Hi Kejohn,
I will give you one, but it is rather long. I took some time to type all of this. I hope that you take the time to read it all because it is the combination of a string of minor miracles that make up the real miracle.Just 2 years ago my wife overdosed on some prescription pain killers.
I left her in bed that morning thinking that she was sleeping.
I did not want to wake her because she suffers with migraine headaches
When I returned home about 10 hours later I found her still laying in the
same position as when I had left her. She had no discernable pulse, and was totally unresponsive. I thought that she was dead.I called 911 and the first responder tried to revive her and was unable.
He did say that she was alive, but barely. Her oxygen level was so low that they weren’t sure that she would survive the trip to the hospital.She did, but she was in a coma. Within a week her condition had worsened if that was possible. She was still in a coma, had pneumonia in both lungs and sepsis had set in.
The doctors were starting to talk to me about considering removal from life support.
They said that even if she survived, she would likely be brain dead from lack of oxygen.Now here is where the “coincidences” started.
Please continue to read of the entire string of coincidences and determine for yourself if there was any miracle involved.As I was sitting by her bed, in total despair, thinking about whether I could make a decision to turn off systems that were keeping her alive, a man appeared on the television set. It was in the middle of some other programming that I was not even paying attention to. But it was odd. This man was dressed in a clergy type outfit. You know, the ones with the collar and little white thing in front. And he talked for only about two minutes about how precious life was. And how no one had the right to decide to take that life, except for God. This was not a commercial. It was not part of any religious programming. It just for no apparent reason appeared in the middle of some other show.
Well that was my answer on removing life support. My wife however was still near death.
If she was going to die, it was going to be God’s choice.I hope you are still with me. There is much more.
As I was returning to my home that night to take care of my ailing mother who was
living with my wife and I, I was very despondent. As I passed by our local church I noticed that the lights were on, even though it was very late at night. ( coincidence #2) I almost turned in to the parking lot for some spiritual consolation but drove on past. I did not even know any one in that church. I just felt a compelling need to stop there, but I did not.
The very next morning I got a call from an old friend that I hadn’t heard from for a long time. As I told him what was going on he mentioned that he was a member of the church that I had passed by the night before and that they would pray for my wife and Me.
( coincidence #3)Later that day I got a notice that someone from where I had retired heard about my wife from the prayer group at this little church and that their prayer chain was going to pray for her.
(coincidence # 4) This was even stranger when you consider that I live 100 miles from the large company from which I retired and have not been in touch with anybody there since my retirement eight years ago.When I returned to the hospital I was sitting by my wife’s bed talking to her as I did every day. Even thought she was in a coma I have heard that comatose people can sometimes hear what is going on around them. All of a sudden she clinched her eyes and one tear ran down her cheek. Nothing more. But that was more than anyone had seen since her overdose. (coincidence #5) That this happened the very day that more than 100 people were praying for her. Some people might say so. Before the day was over she had opened her eyes and was responding to questions.
This awakening was considered unusual by her doctors, but not a miracle. Other comatose people had awakened spontaneously from comas before. And after all, she was still near death because her organs had started shutting down because of the sepsis. She still had pneumonia. And the doctors still were not sure that she could recover.
When the doctors started calling it a miracle was when she was recovered enough to be released from intensive care unit within two days of her waking up. The intensive care nurses said that they had never witnessed that rapid of a recovery in all of their years of nursing, by a patient as sick as my wife had been.
Wait there is more. She was released to a rehab hospital to wean her off of the ventilator and stomach feeding tubes and get any rehabilitation that they could give her to help her learn to walk and function again. Seeing her condition, the rehab evaluation person said that it could take five or six months before she was able to come home again.
Exactly one week later she walked out of the hospital and we went home. She still had the stomach feeding tube in her stomach. She still had a large gaping hole in her throat from the removed trache tube. But she walked to the car under her own power.
Every nurse there that had seen her on arrival said that this was the most miraculous recovery they had ever witnessed.I witnessed an even more miraculous recovery though. It was the change in her. Before this ordeal she was a non believer. In fact a little bit of a hell raiser. She is a totally different person now. I can see the changes that God has made in her. I don’t believe that she would or could have made those changes herself.
I hope that I didn’t bore you. This turned out to be much longer than I expected.
I hope that Mandy forgives me for going so far off of her topic in this thread.
What do you think kejohn. Was all of this merely a long string of coincidences.
I don’t think so. I praise God.Tim
Quote (TimothyVI @ Feb. 29 2008,08:06) Quote (kejonn @ Feb. 29 2008,00:09) That was just a counter to what Nick was trying to prove. Just curious, can you give me examples of miracles you've encountered? Gene mentioned the same and I asked him but he never gave any examples.
Hi Kejohn,
I will give you one, but it is rather long. I took some time to type all of this. I hope that you take the time to read it all because it is the combination of a string of minor miracles that make up the real miracle.Just 2 years ago my wife overdosed on some prescription pain killers.
I left her in bed that morning thinking that she was sleeping.
I did not want to wake her because she suffers with migraine headaches
When I returned home about 10 hours later I found her still laying in the
same position as when I had left her. She had no discernable pulse, and was totally unresponsive. I thought that she was dead.I called 911 and the first responder tried to revive her and was unable.
He did say that she was alive, but barely. Her oxygen level was so low that they weren’t sure that she would survive the trip to the hospital.She did, but she was in a coma. Within a week her condition had worsened if that was possible. She was still in a coma, had pneumonia in both lungs and sepsis had set in.
The doctors were starting to talk to me about considering removal from life support.
They said that even if she survived, she would likely be brain dead from lack of oxygen.Now here is where the “coincidences” started.
Please continue to read of the entire string of coincidences and determine for yourself if there was any miracle involved.As I was sitting by her bed, in total despair, thinking about whether I could make a decision to turn off systems that were keeping her alive, a man appeared on the television set. It was in the middle of some other programming that I was not even paying attention to. But it was odd. This man was dressed in a clergy type outfit. You know, the ones with the collar and little white thing in front. And he talked for only about two minutes about how precious life was. And how no one had the right to decide to take that life, except for God. This was not a commercial. It was not part of any religious programming. It just for no apparent reason appeared in the middle of some other show.
Well that was my answer on removing life support. My wife however was still near death.
If she was going to die, it was going to be God’s choice.I hope you are still with me. There is much more.
As I was returning to my home that night to take care of my ailing mother who was
living with my wife and I, I was very despondent. As I passed by our local church I noticed that the lights were on, even though it was very late at night. ( coincidence #2) I almost turned in to the parking lot for some spiritual consolation but drove on past. I did not even know any one in that church. I just felt a compelling need to stop there, but I did not.
The very next morning I got a call from an old friend that I hadn’t heard from for a long time. As I told him what was going on he mentioned that he was a member of the church that I had passed by the night before and that they would pray for my wife and Me.
( coincidence #3)Later that day I got a notice that someone from where I had retired heard about my wife from the prayer group at this little church and that their prayer chain was going to pray for her.
(coincidence # 4) This was even stranger when you consider that I live 100 miles from the large company from which I retired and have not been in touch with anybody there since my retirement eight years ago.When I returned to the hospital I was sitting by my wife’s bed talking to her as I did every day. Even thought she was in a coma I have heard that comatose people can sometimes hear what is going on around them. All of a sudden she clinched her eyes and one tear ran down her cheek. Nothing more. But that was more than anyone had seen since her overdose. (coincidence #5) That this happened the very day that more than 100 people were praying for her. Some people might say so. Before the day was over she had opened her eyes and was responding to questions.
This awakening was considered unusual by her doctors, but not a miracle. Other comatose people had awakened spontaneously from comas before. And after all, she was still near death because her organs had started shutting down because of the sepsis. She still had pneumonia. And the doctors still were not sure that she could recover.
When the doctors started calling it a miracle was when she was recovered enough to be released from intensive care unit within two days of her waking up. The intensive care nurses said that they had never witnessed that rapid of a recovery in all of their years of nursing, by a patient as sick as my wife had been.
Wait there is more. She was released to a rehab hospital to wean her off of the ventilator and stomach feeding tubes and get any rehabilitation that they could give her to help her learn to walk and function again. Seeing her condition, the rehab evaluation person said that it could take five or six months before she was able to come home again.
Exactly one week later she walked out of the hospital and we went home. She still had the stomach feeding tube in her stomach. She still had a large gaping hole in her throat from the removed trache tube. But she walked to the car under her own power.
Every nurse there that had seen her on arrival said that this was the most miraculous recovery they had ever witnessed.I witnessed an even more miraculous recovery though. It was the change in her. Before this ordeal she was a non believer. In fact a little bit of a hell raiser. She is a totally different person now. I can see the changes that God has made in her. I don’t believe that she would or could have made those changes herself.
I hope that I didn’t bore you. This turned out to be much longer than I expected.
I hope that Mandy forgives me for going so far off of her topic in this thread.
What do you think kejohn. Was all of this merely a long string of coincidences.
I don’t think so. I praise God.Tim
Thank you Timothy for given us such wonderful Testrimony abouy your wife. Miracles do still happen.
Bless you and yours.
Peace and Love Mrs.That's awesome! And don't worry, I'm certain Mandy would not be the slightest bit offended at this post. It is very much on topic IMO. It was indeed worthwhile. Thank you for sharing it.
Was it a miracle? By modern definition I would say so!
So thanks for giving an example of a miracle in your life.
Tim – holy cow!
Wait, can I say “holy” cow? No matter, I am sitting here in a state of blessing from hearing your testimony. Pure blessing. Oh, my goodness I don't even know what to say! Now there's a first.
I'm gonna re-read it all over again tonight just for another blessing. As I was reading your words, I was right there with you…..at your wife's bedside, in agony, praying and hoping. I'm so grateful for a happy ending that she is alive. I don't want to get too personal (now that's not true, I really do
but feel free to not answer), what drove her to want to end her life? Did all of that go away when she became a believer?My sister died of a drug overdose in 2004, and I am no stranger to this type of grief and pain.
Tim, I'm so blessed to know you. I really am very happy that you shared this personal story with us. It has boosted my faith in God like nothing has in months, bro. I mean that. Wow. Wow.
No coinsidences! God loves us and sees us, as Nick says, he watches us. He cares for us. I believe in miracles because I have also experienced a few. Even today while I was doing the laundry, God reminded me of one miracle especially. I looked outside up at the blue sky and said, “I remember…..”. Oh, God is so good! Praise Him, people! I praise Him for your wife, Tim, and for you.
Love,
MandyI had to *bump* this to make sure everyone had a chance to read Tim's testimony.
It's awsome.
Our God is AWSOME!
Quote (Mandy @ Feb. 29 2008,09:53) Did all of that go away when she became a believer? Mandy
Yes it did, along with a lot of other negative things in her life.Thank you for caring.
Tim
Miracles do indeed happen, I myself have been both witness to, and subject of such. I will not go into details about what happened for it streches the limits of creduality and I would not believe my own story if told by someone else. What miracles show is that missing link in our arguments with those like Stewart, where reason falls short in explaining faith in the almighty. Yet we all must remember that revelations received are for ourselves and whenever we relate them to others they are no longer divine revelation, but only our take on such. They, while convincing of us of the divine and perhaps of the benificience thereof, still leave all the minute questions of theology unanswered. So while they may help those like Mandy to retain their faith in the almighty (and I hope they do) they do not relay the shape nor form thereof and I think this is on purpose also. Many questions will remain, but perhaps the most basic at least will be answered. For example, I am a firm believer in the almighty and the goodness thereof, but I still think basic Christian theology is often illogical and scripture just various author's take on what they thought was divine will or inspiration.
Quote (Cato @ Feb. 29 2008,02:15) Mandy,
You are very correct when you point out the motivating factor of fear in regards to these discussions, I myself while rejecting a lot of what I have been taught or read still have this occasional nagging fear of what if I am wrong and they are actually right? Yet when put in a larger context what if any particular religion, not just evangelical Christianity, is right? Fortunately for me age, wisdom and personal revelation (my apologies to Stuart) have minimized my fear of being wrong and heading to hell, hades, tartarus, the abyss or whatever. That is not to say they ever go away completely, even for those of a skeptical nature. Many use this tool of fear intentionally as a means to promote their message. Even those who have a benificient purpose use this tool, much less the murcky cult leaders who are master's of such tactics. When you disagree they are quick to point out you are being deceived by infernal agents…( am I? What if I'm wrong? Eternal punishment in the pits of some netherworld? I can't take the chance!) they are effective. This is not to say people need to refrain on warning others on making bad decisions, but they should not use fear as a basis to dispute reasonable intellectual intercourse such as is largely practiced here. I thought one of the purposes of this site was for people like Mandy, who have questions and are looking for answers! Not for those of us (like myself) who just like to pontificate. Labeling Mandy as was done here does not help her see the “light” but rather, if anything, makes her turn away for it looks more like judgement then help. It is sad for this Christian site when more honest and polite support comes from the athiest and the heretics then the labeled “believers” (Timothy VI being a notable exception, sorry Tim didn't mean to paint all the believers with such a broad brush, just trying to make a point without castigating the particular individual by name).
Greetings Cato…I to have occasions when fear takes hold
I think fear is healthy….
Without fear there is no courage..
Without courage there is no conquest..I think Mandys' question regarding the messiah and the second coming is a challenging one…
I wish the answer to all questions of that type could be
“Just have faith” as Mandy referenced We are told to prove all things and that also includes our own faith.
It is very scary when you believe something and you don't know why.
To address Mandys question….The OT is repleat with references to the Messiah…It is the essense of Judaic
doctrine (to look forward to the coming Messiah ) The unfortunate thing for the Jews ,with exception of a few,
they failed to see he was among them and they killed him.
During his ministry he spoke volumenusly about his second coming.
ISIAH 53 is part of Jewish cannon and quit visebly describes
the Messiah they are waiting for and that text was written 700 years before Jesus…Quote (theodorej @ Mar. 01 2008,01:58) I think Mandys' question regarding the messiah and the second coming is a challenging one…
I wish the answer to all questions of that type could be
“Just have faith” as Mandy referenced We are told to prove all things and that also includes our own faith.
It is very scary when you believe something and you don't know why.
To address Mandys question….The OT is repleat with references to the Messiah…It is the essense of Judaic
doctrine (to look forward to the coming Messiah ) The unfortunate thing for the Jews ,with exception of a few,
they failed to see he was among them and they killed him.
During his ministry he spoke volumenusly about his second coming.
ISIAH 53 is part of Jewish cannon and quit visebly describes
the Messiah they are waiting for and that text was written 700 years before Jesus…
Hi Theo,Thanks for your post.
I just addressed Isa. 53 in another post. It's scary to think this is the ONLY (with exception to Daniel), that folks can turn to and say, “See! Look! There's Jesus!”. Well, to be quite frank, I don't buy that for a dollar. I think, you think, it speaks of Jesus. But it is not crystal clear. It's not even moderately clear. It is supposed that Jesus is there because of our indoctrination, and so we see Jesus there.
But I have read other explainations for Isa. 53 that are just as plausable as it speaking of Jesus. So, it sure makes me wonder that if there are other explainations for this passage, and it's one of only a couple that *could* reflect this type of information about Jesus – should we sell all and burying our treasure in this field?
The word “caution” comes to mind.
Mandy! In Isaiah 53: 5 it says but He was wounded for our transgression, He was bruised for our iniquity; the chastisement for our peace upon Him, And by His stripes we are healed.
Question Who else could this be? To me that is about the Crucifixion of Jesus. Unless you know somebody else that died for us.
Peace and Love Irene
Quote (seek and you will find @ Mar. 01 2008,05:03) Mandy! In Isaiah 53: 5 it says but He was wounded for our transgression, He was bruised for our iniquity; the chastisement for our peace upon Him, And by His stripes we are healed. Question Who else could this be? To me that is about the Crucifixion of Jesus. Unless you know somebody else that died for us.
Peace and Love Irene
Hi Irene,I have to run to a party in my daughter's classroom right now, but I'll come back this evening and give you a few samples that I have found regarding Isa. 53. Then maybe you can see why I'm not totally convinced it's speaking of Jesus. I'm not saying for sure that it is not, but I am saying there are other explainations out there.
Thanks!
MandyTim I appreciate you sharing our personal story for us. It is astonishing, but not miraculous. The actions of medical staff and modern antibiotics are not miracles. I don't even think the coincidences are anything more than literal coincidences. It is striking that your wife survived and recovered with such vigour and that may be a testament to her otherwise robust health.
As a child I supposedly predicted the death of a cousin, by mimicking beforehand what would seem to be the exact circumstances of his death. While riding my tricycle around the house I stopped, mentioned his name and asked if it was all clear to turn. This relative was found a couple of days later, dead at the wheel of his car, stopped at an intersection with the indicator going. There is no question in my mind that this is a pure coincidence.
I don't pretend that what I write is even 10% of what you do. To attribute either to supernatural beings is to look for patterns that really aren't there.
Stuart
That's O.K. Stu.
I knew that would be your take on it.
The medical staff, who like to think of themselves as gods, thought that it was miraculous.
They are fully aware of what to expect from their modern antibiotics, and they did not expect what happened.I really was not looking for patterns that really were not there. But I would be foolish to deny them when they hit me in the face.
I think that it was a little cruel to even make a child think that they may have had some involvement with an uncle dying.
Tim
That is something I had not even considered; that someone might think there was a causal relationship between the two events.
Am I Damien from The Omen? My birthday is 6 June!
Stuart
Quote (Stu @ Mar. 01 2008,09:44) As a child I supposedly predicted the death of a cousin, by mimicking beforehand what would seem to be the exact circumstances of his death. While riding my tricycle around the house I stopped, mentioned his name and asked if it was all clear to turn. This relative was found a couple of days later, dead at the wheel of his car, stopped at an intersection with the indicator going. There is no question in my mind that this is a pure coincidence.
Spooky!
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