Anti-trin&#8230;

Participant

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ May 22 2010,15:05)

Quote (terraricca @ May 22 2010,11:00)

you say;;The word does not say that we must obey the son to be saved. it says first to believe, have faith, to live a relationship with Christ (and referrig to relationship im talking about matthew 7 that Jesus must know you) . obey? i never saw that in scripture, in order to be saved. He came for the sinners not the good people. Thank God

the scriptures wrights;;Lk 11:28 He replied, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it.”
Lk 11:28 He replied, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it.”

Jn 14:23 Jesus replied, “If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.
Ac 4:19 But Peter and John replied, “Judge for yourselves whether it is right in God’s sight to obey you rather than God.

Jn 15:20 Remember the words I spoke to you: ‘No servant is greater than his master.’ If they persecuted me, they will persecute you also. If they obeyed my teaching, they will obey yours also

Ac 5:32 We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him
Heb 5:9 and, once made perfect, he(Christ) became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him

you say;;again to respond to one of the verses you made
something caught my eye when i was reading it

Jn 17:11 I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name—the name you gave me—so that they may be one as we are one.

Intresting….! isnt it?

Jn 17:11 “I will not remain in the world any longer. But they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep them safe by the power of your name. It is the name you gave me. Keep them safe so they can be one, just as you and I are one.

first;keep them safe by the power of your name,( this is very clear to me )this means the power of God the father has given a name to the son above all others all knees will bend before him.)
secondly;; It is the name you gave me, (same has above)
third;so they can be one, just as you and I are one.(if Adam could become one flesh with Eve ,what s the problem ,for you to understand that it is also possible to be one in spirit,Christ being the groom and the disciples the bride and so not become united in the power of the spirit ?)and be one with God and Christ.

Christ can not teach one thing in one gospel and deny is words in an other and by doing so deny the old testament.and the word of God ans the holy spirit.

Pierre

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SF
you say;;The word does not say that we must obey the son to be saved. it says first to believe, have faith, to live a relationship with Christ (and referrig to relationship im talking about matthew 7 that Jesus must know you) . obey? i never saw that in scripture, in order to be saved. He came for the sinners not the good people. Thank God

the scriptures wrights;;Lk 11:28 He replied, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it.”
Lk 11:28 He replied, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it.”

This does not say that you are saved if you obey, this says you will be blessed.. finally we disagree with something.

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Jn 14:23 Jesus replied, “If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.

Again this does not say anything about being saved. If we love Christ we will obey. Thats my point.

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Ac 4:19 But Peter and John replied, “Judge for yourselves whether it is right in God’s sight to obey you rather than God.

I do not see anything about salvation here?

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Jn 15:20 Remember the words I spoke to you: ‘No servant is greater than his master.’ If they persecuted me, they will persecute you also. If they obeyed my teaching, they will obey yours also

Again salvation?

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[Heb 5:9 and, once made perfect, he(Christ) became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him

Now there is something i will agree with and actualy proves your point better.

I never said that in the end.
I didnt say that Christ denied anything.

Good night,

Im starting to believe you are getting frustrated with every thing i say.

you say;;

Quote

Jn 14:23 Jesus replied, “If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.

Again this does not say anything about being saved. If we love Christ we will obey. Thats my point.

you show me in scriptures that you can be saved without loving God or Christ ?

because if the love of God is not the key then the wicked is saved while being wicket and does not need to change.
and that would only please Satan the deceiver.

i do know and see were you are blind,as i say before your answers are your heart and breath in action,any one who can read it can see it.

Pierre

May 22, 2010 at 4:32 pm#191586

Participant

Hi SimplyForgiven
Your first question:

Quote

Question to all of those who are anti-trine… idk how to spell it…

I would really like to understand two things?
Of two scriptures, and i hope that ya dont take it as myself being agressive, or antagonizing ya.

I really would like to know your interpretation of two scriptures. and compare with others if you like.

John 10:30 “I and my Father are one.”

–SimplyForgiven

So, your question was to anti-trinitarians, and your first question was on John 10:30. I take that to mean that you are questioning how anti-trinitarians understand the idea that Jesus and the Father are “one” as if to imply they were “one” being, or one in nature, the same being.

BUT IF WE WERE TO LET SCRIPTURE INTERPRET ITSELF, we find out exactly what was meant. Or at the least, we find out that it can't be understood that way, because if you consistently use the same logic, then the disciples are also part of the trinity, or are “one” in the same sense that God and Jesus are.

JOHN 17:21-22 (niv)
“. . .that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one:

QUESTION, SF:
Are the disciples to be “one” “as [The Father and Son] are one” in that the disciples are the same being?
Or, as I believe, are the disciples to be “one” in that they are “one” in purpose, in that they are united?
Which makes more sense?

You make the point that Jesus disciples are not united. Jesus had an illustration about wheat and weeds. He said the weeds (sons of the wicked one) would grow among the wheat (sons of the kingdom). He also foretold that false Christians would appear, as did Paul, Peter and John. This has happened. So my point is, you can't look at everyone that “says” they are Christian and assume they are actually following Christ. I can say I am a mechanic, but that doesn't make me one. Jesus and the others were right, there was an apostasy, and there are many false Christians. We should not expect all who call themselves Christians to be united. We should only expect that Jesus true followers are united throughout the world. Despite language and racial barriers, they would be preaching the same message (Matthew 24:14). And today, I believe they are doing this. Wherever you go, they will find you with the same kingdom message. As Jesus said, his disciples are “one.”

Now, for your second question:

May 22, 2010 at 4:52 pm#191589

Participant

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your last poitn about blasphemy.

answer is neither. Because the jews wanted to kill him because he put himself equal to God. so… idk. Im not going to sepeculate any other point. im going to stick to scripture.

Although this scripture can be translated and interpreted differently, since the point of the scripture is to show how WE are to act, I believe it must be saying that Jesus never tried to be equal to God, but instead, he emptied himself and took a human's form. WE are to have the same mental attitude.

So now, the scripture we are looking at:
On this account, indeed, the Jews began seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath but he was also calling God his own Father, making himself equal to God.

I believe that we are being told that this is how the Jews viewed it, that by calling God his Father, he was in effect, making himself equal to God. I believe the Jews saw it that way, but I don't believe the writer was saying that Jesus made himself equal to God. I believe that by calling God his own Father, he might of well have said: “I am God” because it made no difference to them. Whether he said: “I am God” or he said: “I am God's son” either way, they didn't like it.
So while the scripture does say “making himself equal to God” in view of Jesus humility, in view of the fact that he is repeatedly called God's “Son” or the Son “of” God, in view of Philippians, I believe that when it says the Jews were seeking to kill him because he was “calling God his own Father” that THEY understood this to be equivalent to calling himself God. But Jesus did not say he was equal to God. In fact, he said: “The Father is equal to me.” No, wait, that's not what he said. He said: “The Father is greater than I am.” (John 14:28)

I think we also have to consider this scripture:
JOHN 19:7
“The Jews answered him: “We have a law, and according to the law he ought to die, because he made himself God’s son.”” (What did the Jews tell Pilate Jesus had made himself? If Jesus was claiming to be God, surely they who wanted him done away with would have charged him with this.)
MARK 14:61,62
“Again the high priest began to question him and said to him: “Are you the Christ the Son of the Blessed One?” Then Jesus said: “I am.” (So they were charging him with saying he was the “Son of” the God, and Jesus himself said: “I am.”)

Surely, if Jesus ever claimed to be God himself, they would have charged him with this.

May 23, 2010 at 2:45 am#191630

Lightenup

Participant

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ May 22 2010,00:06)

Quote (Lightenup @ May 22 2010,15:48)

The first time He was begotten as the only begotten God, (John 1:18 NASB) the second time He was still the begotten God from His past but also became the Son of Man. He is the root of David and the offspring of David. The root of David was 100% root, the offspring of David was still 100% root but also 100% offspring. Jesus was 100% God and 100% man.
NASB ©
John 1:18
No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.

Also, the Father did sanctify Him (the Son) and sent Him into the world. The Father did not sanctify Himself and send Himself into the world.

Hey lighten up,

again thank you for the time.

i bluntly going to tell you that i have read, and considered your whole response but i am purpously going to ignore everything else you said, and respond to this part right here that i posted.

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The root of David was 100% root, the offspring of David was still 100% root but also 100% offspring. Jesus was 100% God and 100% man.

???Why is this even a PART OF THE DISCUSSION if i believe the same thing!? ???

someone please NOTE: that we agree on this Point, that Jesus is FULL GOD, AND FULL MAN.

second part. i was going to use the very same scripture. and for some reason i didnt. intresting how God works. it confirmed me something.

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The Father did not sanctify Himself and send Himself into the world.

I just dont get it….
This person who was not created. This sounds like the high preist Melchizedek! who had no father or mother!
My Point is if God who is omnipresent, and has the power to limit himself, has the ability to make himself full human, and yet still God without ever sinning.

It doesnt make since, How can you be full God, and NOT be God.

From what your telling me, its like he took a seed and just planted it, and that seed came from him. is that what your saying? yet this seed has no diffrent distingush from God, displays the very same morals, characther, choices and ethics,. They have no difference in personality, and yet say they are not one and the same.

Its like this. i have a screen name, and Its says simply forgiven. Now even though simply Forgiven is my screen name, you can see my constant personality,

now lets say someone like my cousin came over and loged into my screen name and started posting. you could start to question whether its me or not, becuase its not the same.

Jesus said, look at my works ARNT THE SAME AS THE FATHER!?

so lets move in to psychology in this subject. If we look at the personality of God and Jesus, do you agree they are the same constant personality?

Genesis 14:17 (Whole Chapter)
[ Abram Blessed by Melchizedek ] After his return from the defeat of Chedorlaomer and the kings who were with him, the king of Sodom went out to meet him at the Valley of Shaveh (that is, the [2 Sam 18:18] King’s Valley).

Hebrews 7:1 [ The Priestly Order of Melchizedek ] For this [Gen 14:18-20 ] Melchizedek, king of [Psalm 76:2 ] Salem, priest of [Num 24:16; Deut 32:8] the Most High God, met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings and blessed him,

Hebrews 7:11
[ Jesus Compared to Melchizedek ] [Hebrews 7:18, 19; Hebrews 8:7; Gal 2:21] Now if perfection had been attainable through the Levitical priesthood (for under it the people received the law), what further need would there have been for another priest to arise after the order of Melchizedek, rather than one named after the order of Aaron?

Hi SF,

I'm glad we are agreeing on something. That's always nice

About your comments:

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t doesnt make since, How can you be full God, and NOT be God.

How can someone be fully God and not be God? By being procreated by the Most High God, one can be the begotten God. I don't know how the procreation happened within the Most High God, but the one who designed asexual reproduction would not find it hard to procreate by Himself.

That is all I have time for now. Remember not to stay up too late:) I often listen to my podcasts on my iPod when my mind would otherwise not want to rest and let me sleep. The podcasts help me think about something else. It is good that HN is helping you dig deeper into scripture…let the Holy Spirit lead you and not the members of HN, ok? The Holy Spirit may use the members though.

G'nite!

May 23, 2010 at 5:23 am#191643

Participant

Jn 10:9 I’m like a gate. Anyone who enters through me will be saved. He will come in and go out. And he will find plenty of food.
Ac 2:21 Everyone who calls
on the name of the Lord will be saved.’ (Joel 2:28-32)
Mt 10:22 Everyone will hate you because of me. But anyone who stands firm to the end will be saved

STAND FIRM DOING WHAT AND IN WHAT?

Ro 8:28 We know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him. He appointed them to be saved in keeping with his purpose.

WHAT IS THE PURPOSE OF GOD ,SO THAT WE MAY KNOW WHAT SAVE US ?

Ro 10:9 Say with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord.” Believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead. Then you will be saved.
Ro 10:10 With your heart you believe and are made right with God. With your mouth you say that Jesus is Lord. And so you are saved

2Th 2:14 He chose you to be saved by accepting the good news that we preach. And you will share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2Th 3:2 And pray that we will be saved from sinful and evil people. Not everyone is a believer.
1Ti 2:4 He wants everyone to be saved. He wants them to come to know the truth

Pierre

May 23, 2010 at 5:54 am#191646

Participant

Quote (kerwin @ May 22 2010,21:03)

SimplyForgiven,

In other words Jesus does not fit all of the criteria of who God is and God will not change himself to fit the criteria of who Jesus is because he would stop being himself.

Never the less they are one in the attitude of their heart and that is what counts to God.

Kerwin

I would only suggest my brother to buy this book called “Knowing the unknowable God” and it provides a hebrew practice called Halactik reasoning. which i forget about to spell it. but its a pretty good book.

I think you would find it very intresting. Provides alot of scripture and reference. If anything its not really a book, its more of a study.

Like i promised, before i will make no debate on what you said.

I believe we will grow in understanding togethor.

Does my explantion of my understanding, help you, understand me?

May 23, 2010 at 6:13 am#191647

Participant

Quote (terraricca @ May 23 2010,03:11)

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ May 22 2010,15:05)

Quote (terraricca @ May 22 2010,11:00)

Jn 15:20 Remember the words I spoke to you: ‘No servant is greater than his master.’ If they persecuted me, they will persecute you also. If they obeyed my teaching, they will obey yours also

you say;;again to respond to one of the verses you made
something caught my eye when i was reading it

Intresting….! isnt it?

Christ can not teach one thing in one gospel and deny is words in an other and by doing so deny the old testament.and the word of God ans the holy spirit.

Pierre

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This does not say that you are saved if you obey, this says you will be blessed.. finally we disagree with something.

Quote

Jn 14:23 Jesus replied, “If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.

Again this does not say anything about being saved. If we love Christ we will obey. Thats my point.

Quote

Ac 4:19 But Peter and John replied, “Judge for yourselves whether it is right in God’s sight to obey you rather than God.

I do not see anything about salvation here?

Quote

Jn 15:20 Remember the words I spoke to you: ‘No servant is greater than his master.’ If they persecuted me, they will persecute you also. If they obeyed my teaching, they will obey yours also

Again salvation?

Quote

[Heb 5:9 and, once made perfect, he(Christ) became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him

Now there is something i will agree with and actualy proves your point better.

I never said that in the end.
I didnt say that Christ denied anything.

Good night,

Im starting to believe you are getting frustrated with every thing i say.

you say;;

Quote

Jn 14:23 Jesus replied, “If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.

Again this does not say anything about being saved. If we love Christ we will obey. Thats my point.

you show me in scriptures that you can be saved without loving God or Christ ?

because if the love of God is not the key then the wicked is saved while being wicket and does not need to change.
and that would only please Satan the deceiver.

i do know and see were you are blind,as i say before your answers are your heart and breath in action,any one who can read it can see it.

Pierre

Terrarica,

Im going to turn the other cheeck to you!

Thank you very much for calling me blind!
Yet this blind man some how agrees with you in many points, and yet you cant see that. wow who is really blind here?

You should ask the spirit about that.

let me correct you on the statement that your claiming that i said. Bc this started with YOUR comment.
.

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they only can come closer to God and his word to obey the son to be saved,we are only the han
ds who plant seeds and watering the seeds thats all ,but God his the one who can make it grow no one else

You said that one can only get closer to God, by obeying the son to be saved.

I disagreed with that. Do you even know what you said there?

So literally i save myself by obeying certain rules.

Or am i saved becasue Jesus died for me, forgiven me, become a new person, so that i can obey his rules?

See the differnence! CAN YOU NOT SEE THAT.

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Again this does not say anything about being saved. If we love Christ we will obey. Thats my point.

Thats what i said, dont steal my point! you need to qoute this!!!! I SAID THIS!!! omgosh… maybe your responding back to this qoute, but you really need to qoute this.

Omgosh!!!!!!! you are getting my nerves because i am literaly wasting my time responding to your nonsense. lol, but i will respond anyways.

lol if im blind, than maybe i should also assume that you cannot read. Do you have trouble reading? I strongly believe you are from a foreign country as in not from the United States., (im not insulting you)

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you show me in scriptures that you can be saved without loving God or Christ ? because if the love of God is not the key then the wicked is saved while being wicket and does not need to change.
and that would only please Satan the deceiver.

I never said that. Let the record show that i never said that one must not change. Let the record show that in the previous response neither did Terrarica elaborate on that point either.

If anything WE AGREE!!! WOW OMGOSH THERE YOU GO AGAIN. I HAVE CLEARLY WASTED MY TIME BC WE AGREE.

lol omgosh….YOU TOOK WHAT I SAID! OUT OF PROPORTION.

Your statement caused confusion than if you agree. You cant just say that without adding more to it.

If i can easily see that we agree,

yet you call me blind,

yet we agree,

Doesnt that also make you blind?

Get the humor?

May 23, 2010 at 6:36 am#191648

Participant

Quote (david @ May 23 2010,03:32)

Hi SimplyForgiven
Your first question:

Quote

Question to all of those who are anti-trine… idk how to spell it…

I would really like to understand two things?
Of two scriptures, and i hope that ya dont take it as myself being agressive, or antagonizing ya.

I really would like to know your interpretation of two scriptures. and compare with others if you like.

John 10:30 “I and my Father are one.”

–SimplyForgiven

Now, for your second question:

Your first response to my First question.

You didnt do what i asked you to do. I even did what i wanted ya to do for me, because i wanted to understand you. If you see my previous post i went verse by verse making observations on certain facts, and certain speculations. and even personal comments.

Thats what im really asking for. Im not asking for your opinion on oneness of the Father, im just asking your input in your expertise of anti-trin, in your side, how do you view this scripture.

You clearly didnt do that so im not even going to respond back to what you offered. in this first response. and you dont literaly connect what that scripture means.

This is what commonly happens in this forum.
I say Jesus, you say Jesus, Other may say Jesus, but are you sure when we all say Jesus, we believe in the SAME exact thing. If we did agree, there wouldnt be divison. Thats why im asking literaly your view of this.

To some people Jesus is black, to other he is anglo, and to the studious he is Jewish.

Do you understnad what i said? i can clarify more if needed. If i can understand, the understanding you provide maybe it can help me in my studies. but i clearly dont, thats why im asking.

Umm the disciples?
hmm great observation! i didnt think of That.
assuming that we are all in the same Love of God,
going back to 1 Corithians 1, where Paul refers to divison. To understand unity, we have to first understand what Isnt unity. I like Paul breif reference to this in Verse 10

10 “Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.”

note he said Perfect, In the scripture you offer in the prayer on John 17, in Context Jesus used the word Perfect, which i believe that in greek is “Teleios”. if you want to look it up.

Maybe this is what Jesus refered to.

I TOTALLY AGREE with your explattions about Thistles and fruit same as wheat and weeds.
And your anaylsis of Assumed Christians and real Christians.

I also agree. But I dont believe its just the message that will be the same.

Lucifer used severval messages from the bible. even the Evil knows the bible. Why do i say this, because when Satan was tempting Jesus, he used scripture.
Jesus responded with scripture and only Scripture. so i think that the oneness of the true christians i guess would be more than just the message.

also in mathew 7 it presents that even those that actualy served God, and prophecied in his name, and even casted out demons, did not make it. Jesus said, depart for i never knew you.
So maybe its the Relationship in Christ Jesus, that makes us one. The Gospel is for God to save, Christ in us, Unifies us.

Because God will even use a donkey to speak is word right?
(I read this in scripture that God did, but maybe im not applying it right, you tell me?)

To understand John 17, we need to look at the context. again i do believe this should be another thread to be discussed in.

May 23, 2010 at 7:01 am#191649

Participant

Quote (david @ May 23 2010,03:52)

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your last poitn about blasphemy.

answer is neither. Because the jews wanted to kill him because he put himself equal to God. so… idk. Im not going to sepeculate any other point. im going to stick to scripture.

Surely, if Jesus ever claimed to be God himself, they would have charged him with this.

Im going to respond to you verse by verse, because I disagree with you. because you are making asumptions.

and you didnt clarify your last point. and even go back to John 10. if anything you havent extended john 10 at all., you have mentioned it but didnt even go into it.

let me respond back to teh verse you mentioned.

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Sticking to scripture, let's look at one other scripture first, where we find the idea of Jesus being equal to God. It is a scripture that tells us to copy Christ and his mental attitude. (We are to be humble, like him.)
“Keep this mental attitude in YOU that was also in Christ Jesus, who, although he was existing in God’s form, gave no consideration to a seizure, namely, that he should be equal to God. No, but he emptied himself and took a slave’s form….”
Although this scripture can be translated and interpreted differently, since the point of the scripture is to show how WE are to act, I believe it must be saying that Jesus never tried to be equal to God, but instead, he emptied himself and took a human's form. WE are to have the same mental attitude.

We have already discussed this in another thread.
first i pointed out that the writer first described how we shuold be like than mentiond, just like Jesus WHO: starst describing Jesus, and than leaves the subject of humility.
Its like this: we should be humble and wise, and not fight all the time, keep this attutude that the “President” also had, WHO: used crtical thinking, and networking to advance his career.
First Paul makes his advice, than says that its also in Jesus, WHO! starts talking about him.
get what im saying?
It would be better, to say, Jesus was humble, Jesus was this and that, and so should you be like that.
This is the Order, Advice, Jesus had it, facts about Jesus. and than continues about other points.
the scripture before philipians 2:5 is the description of how we must act.

your explantion about humility of Christ is totally in the wrong order. Thats not even interpretation, Its just obvious.

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Im confused first you didnt tell me what verse this is?
because in john 10:33 is the verse im looking at and asking for input.
33 “The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.”
So…maybe your confused about what scripture im looking at.
In this case, the Jews are saying that Jesus is trying to make himself God.
in other words, im thinking they are viewing jesus like this crazy guy in the streets saying he is God.
and your last comeback with john 14:28 unnessary.

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Untopical. I never said that Jesus is not the son of God.
And how do the Jews view the Son of God?
This is where im saying your assuming, you cant say that the very same Jews individual by individual, were the same jews that were in front of Pilate when they asked him. like we wouldnt know. theres alot of Jews. most of them were at fault but than again. we can only observe the Jews that were presented by event.

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MARK 14:61,62
“Again the high priest began to question him and said to him: “Are you the Christ the Son of the Blessed One?” Then Jesus said: “I am.” (So they were charging him with saying he was the “Son of” the God, and Jesus himself said: “I am.”)
Surely, if Jesus ever claimed to be God himself, they would have charged him with this.

Was the High Priest Present at John 10? This is irrevelant. You cant assume that they did or didnt, because it doesnt mention it.
Sticking to scripture is just that. If the scripture Said, The High priest is chargin Jesus because he said he is the son of God, but to clarify not God, but just the Son.
than i would understand. i havent seen the Jews response in that way though.

Lets go back to John 10. This is going off topic. i am honestly asking for you input. your telling me to let scripture speak of itself. okkkkk tell me what it tells you. literaly, word by word. not the whole idea. word by word, the same way i did before in the other posts.

May 23, 2010 at 7:17 am#191650

Participant

Quote (Lightenup @ May 23 2010,13:45)

Hi SF,

I'm glad we are agreeing on something. That's always nice

About your comments:

Quote

t doesnt make since, How can you be full God, and NOT be God.

G'nite!

Ya im glad we agree on something too. =)

It just makes the process of understanding you just so much smoother, because we can dont have to back track to debate another topic that we already agreed on.

I dont want it to be that i took a step forward and than took two steps back.

lol we can continue and not have to go back and reargue something. finally discussing with someone who doesnt speak in circles. You have no idea, how much i look forward to your posts. even though we can disagree, your clear. I can understand you.

=) to continue

But i dont get that procreated? so Jesus was begotten before he was made flesh?
so your saying that God is Asexual. You see when i learnd about Asexuality, it meant that the being, made another being thats is exactly like the other.

Idk. You see i agree that Jesus was begotten in Flesh, but you make it seem that he was created before created in flesh.

Yet he is full God but not God. Idk….i would like for your elaboartion on this with scripture if possible.
I think with more details i can get what your saying, because right now i cant comprehend.

lol im trying not too. every response takes time for me to write. The Holy Spirit is wonderful! im very happy with the things that i have learned recently. lol
I agree, The Holy Spirit very well can use the members!

Good night

Note: 2:17am

May 23, 2010 at 7:29 am#191651

Participant

Quote (terraricca @ May 23 2010,16:23)

STAND FIRM DOING WHAT AND IN WHAT?

Ro 8:28 We know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him. He appointed them to be saved in keeping with his purpose.

WHAT IS THE PURPOSE OF GOD ,SO THAT WE MAY KNOW WHAT SAVE US ?

Pierre

woah, woah, woah

What bible translation are you using?

Romans 8:28 “And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.”

look at context when using this scripture, you cut out the word AND, thats very important to the verse, becuase its a continuation of the previous idea which was.

Note: that also: i never saw the word saved in this verse before, i would ask all of those in HN to check your bibles to see if there are other translations to confirm this. i am using the King James Version.

I looked at other translations right now, and i do not see the word saved in there. WHAT BIBLE ARE YOU USING!!!

(context: 27 “And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.”

29For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren)

Are you qouting bible are you just mentinoing your interpretation.

AND WHAT IS YOUR POINT WITH THIS POST!!!

YOUR NOT MAKING SENSE AGAIN!

this has no connection to what you have stated before.

The onlly thing i see here is your mentioning scripture taht is takling about “salvation”

i didnt even bother to look at them all, but i did look at Roman 8:28! and see that either you are misqouting the bible or you are using a differnt translation. i am awaiting your explanation.

You seriously need to talk to the spirit.

What does the Spirit tell you!!

May 23, 2010 at 9:07 am#191656

karmarie

Participant

Dear SF

John 14..(YLT)

9 Jesus saith to him, `So long time am I with you, and thou hast not known me, Philip?
he who hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how dost thou say, Shew to us the Father?

10Believest thou not that I [am] in the Father, and the Father is in me?
the sayings that I speak to you, from myself I speak not, and the Father who is abiding in me, Himself doth the works;

11 believe me, that I [am] in the Father, and the Father in me; and if not, because of the works themselves, believe me.

12 `Verily, verily, I say to you, he who is believing in me, the works that I do — that one also shall do,
and greater than these he shall do, because I go on to my Father;

16 and I will ask the Father, and another Comforter He will give to you,
that he may remain with you — to the age;

17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world is not able to receive, because it doth not behold him, nor know him,
and ye know him, because he doth remain with you, and shall be in you.

18 `I will not leave you bereaved, I come unto you;

20 in that day ye shall know that I [am] in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you;

21 he who is having my commands, and is keeping them, that one it is who is loving me,
and he who is loving me shall be loved by my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.'

23 Jesus answered and said to him, `If any one may love me, my word he will keep,
and my Father will love him, and unto him we will come, and abode with him we will make;

28 ye heard that I said to you — I go away, and I come unto you;
if ye did love me, ye would have rejoiced that I said — I go on to the Father, because my Father is greater than I.

So here we have an answer to you 2 questions.
Jesus is one with the Father as we also can be.

The Holy Spirit….came into the believers. Jesus first went to the Father after being crucified with his risen body then returned as Spirit.

Ed would explain it alot better than me though (if he were here). (Thats who explained it to me.)

May 23, 2010 at 5:23 pm#191669

Participant

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ May 23 2010,17:13)

Quote (terraricca @ May 23 2010,03:11)

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ May 22 2010,15:05)

Quote (terraricca @ May 22 2010,11:00)

Jn 15:20 Remember the words I spoke to you: ‘No servant is greater than his master.’ If they persecuted me, they will persecute you also. If they obeyed my teaching, they will obey yours also

you say;;again to respond to one of the verses you made
something caught my eye when i was reading it

Intresting….! isnt it?

Christ can not teach one thing in one gospel and deny is words in an other and by doing so deny the old testament.and the word of God ans the holy spirit.

Pierre

Quote

This does not say that you are saved if you obey, this says you will be blessed.. finally we disagree with something.

Quote

Jn 14:23 Jesus replied, “If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.

Again this does not say anything about being saved. If we love Christ we will obey. Thats my point.

Quote

Ac 4:19 But Peter and John replied, “Judge for yourselves whether it is right in God’s sight to obey you rather than God.

I do not see anything about salvation here?

Quote

Jn 15:20 Remember the words I spoke to you: ‘No servant is greater than his master.’ If they persecuted me, they will persecute you also. If they obeyed my teaching, they will obey yours also

Again salvation?

Quote

[Heb 5:9 and, once made perfect, he(Christ) became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him

Now there is something i will agree with and actualy proves your point better.

I never said that in the end.
I didnt say that Christ denied anything.

Good night,

Im starting to believe you are getting frustrated with every thing i say.

you say;;

Quote

Jn 14:23 Jesus replied, “If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.

Again this does not say anything about being saved. If we love Christ we will obey. Thats my point.

you show me in scriptures that you can be saved without loving God or Christ ?

because if the love of God is not the key then the wicked is saved while being wicket and does not need to change.
and that would only please Satan the deceiver.

i do know and see were you are blind,as i say before your answers are your heart and breath in action,any one who can read it can see it.

Pierre

Terrarica,

Im going to turn the other cheeck to you!

Thank you very much for calling me blind!
Yet this blind man some how agrees with you in many points, and yet you cant see that. wow who is really blind here?

You should ask the spirit about that.

let me correct you on the statement that your claiming that i said. Bc this started with YOUR comment.
.

Quote

they only can come closer to God and his word to obey the son to be saved,we are only the hands who plant seeds and watering the seeds thats all ,but God his the one who can make it grow no one else

You said that one can only get closer to God, by obeying the son to be saved.

I disagreed with that. Do you even know what you said there?

So literally i save myself by obeying certain rules.

Or am i saved becasue Jesus died for me, forgiven me, become a new person, so that i can obey his rules?

See the differnence! CAN YOU NOT SEE THAT.

Quote

Again this does not say anything about being saved. If we love Christ we will obey. Thats my point.

Thats what i said, dont steal my point! you need to qoute this!!!! I SAID THIS!!! omgosh… maybe your responding back to this qoute, but you really need to qoute this.

Omgosh!!!!!!! you are getting my nerves because i am literaly wasting my time responding to your nonsense. lol, but i will respond anyways.

Quote

I never said that. Let the record show that i never said that one must not change. Let the record show that in the previous response neither did Terrarica elaborate on that point either.

If anything WE AGREE!!! WOW OMGOSH THERE YOU GO AGAIN. I HAVE CLEARLY WASTED MY TIME BC WE AGREE.

lol omgosh….YOU TOOK WHAT I SAID! OUT OF PROPORTION.

Your statement caused confusion than if you agree. You cant just say that without adding more to it.

If i can easily see that we agree,

yet you call me blind,

yet we agree,

Doesnt that also make you blind?

Get the humor?

why you do not read back our conversation 3 to 4 pages back
you may understand it better ,and grasp the meaning of what i really say to you and why.

and the reason why i say you are blind.

my translation i use is the INV and KJV and others

Ro 8:28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose INV
Ro 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose KJV

i only quote you that scripture to show what the love for God does.

so go back to read it again or

Pierre

May 24, 2010 at 2:24 am#191691

Participant

Quote (karmarie @ May 23 2010,20:07)

Dear SF

John 14..(YLT)

9 Jesus saith to him, `So long time am I with you, and thou hast not known me, Philip?
he who hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how dost thou say, Shew to us the Father?

10Believest thou not that I [am] in the Father, and the Father is in me?
the sayings that I speak to you, from myself I speak not, and the Father who is abiding in me, Himself doth the works;

11 believe me, that I [am] in the Father, and the Father in me; and if not, because of the works themselves, believe me.

12 `Verily, verily, I say to you, he who is believing in me, the works that I do — that one also shall do,
and greater than these he shall do, because I go on to my Father;

16 and I will ask the Father, and another Comforter He will give to you,
that he may remain with you — to the age;

17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world is not able to receive, because it doth not behold him, nor know him,
and ye know him, because he doth remain with you, and shall be in you.

18 `I will not leave you bereaved, I come unto you;

20 in that day ye shall know that I [am] in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you;

21 he who is having my commands, and is keeping them, that one it is who is loving me,
and he who is loving me shall be loved by my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.'

23 Jesus answered and said to him, `If any one may love me, my word he will keep,
and my Father will love him, and unto him we will come, and abode with him we will make;

28 ye heard that I said to you — I go away, and I come unto you;
if ye did love me, ye would have rejoiced that I said — I go on to the Father, because my Father is greater than I.

So here we have an answer to you 2 questions.
Jesus is one with the Father as we also can be.

The Holy Spirit….came into the believers. Jesus first went to the Father after being crucified with his risen body then returned as Spirit.

Ed would explain it alot better than me though (if he were here). (Thats who explained it to me.)

Hi Karmarie,

Intresting Scripture you mentioned, but may i offer other scripture, because we have clearly mentioned and discussed most of the scriptures you posted.

Tell me what you think about these that i offer here. I will also offer a small observations.

Quote

Romans 8:34
Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

Obsereved Where Paul says Jesus is now.

Quote

Hebrews 7:22
By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.
23And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death:
24But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.
25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

This writer, offers more information to what Paul Claimed. What do you think? note: unchangable preist hood.

Quote

John 16:7
Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;

What do you think about this scripture. here

actually im not trying to debate you, im asking for what is your understanding of these and others?

Much love =)

Who is Ed?

May 24, 2010 at 2:35 am#191693

Participant

Quote (terraricca @ May 24 2010,04:23)

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ May 23 2010,17:13)

Quote (terraricca @ May 23 2010,03:11)

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ May 22 2010,15:05)

Quote (terraricca @ May 22 2010,11:00)

Jn 15:20 Remember the words I spoke to you: ‘No servant is greater than his master.’ If they persecuted me, they will persecute you also. If they obeyed my teaching, they will obey yours also

you say;;again to respond to one of the verses you made
something caught my eye when i was reading it

Intresting….! isnt it?

Christ can not teach one thing in one gospel and deny is words in an other and by doing so deny the old testament.and the word of God ans the holy spirit.

Pierre

Quote

This does not say that you are saved if you obey, this says you will be blessed.. finally we disagree with something.

Quote

Jn 14:23 Jesus replied, “If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.

Again this does not say anything about being saved. If we love Christ we will obey. Thats my point.

Quote

Ac 4:19 But Peter and John replied, “Judge for yourselves whether it is right in God’s sight to obey you rather than God.

I do not see anything about salvation here?

Quote

Jn 15:20 Remember the words I spoke to you: ‘No servant is greater than his master.’ If they persecuted me, they will persecute you also. If they obeyed my teaching, they will obey yours also

Again salvation?

Quote

[Heb 5:9 and, once made perfect, he(Christ) became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him

Now there is something i will agree with and actualy proves your point better.

I never said that in the end.
I didnt say that Christ denied anything.

Good night,

Im starting to believe you are getting frustrated with every thing i say.

you say;;

Quote

Jn 14:23 Jesus replied, “If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.

Again this does not say anything about being saved. If we love Christ we will obey. Thats my point.

you show me in scriptures that you can be saved without loving God or Christ ?

because if the love of God is not the key then the wicked is saved while being wicket and does not need to change.
and that would only please Satan the deceiver.

i do know and see were you are blind,as i say before your answers are your heart and breath in action,any one who can read it can see it.

Pierre

Terrarica,

Im going to turn the other cheeck to you!

Thank you very much for calling me blind!
Yet this blind man some how agrees with you in many points, and yet you cant see that. wow who is really b
lind here?

You should ask the spirit about that.

let me correct you on the statement that your claiming that i said. Bc this started with YOUR comment.
.

Quote

they only can come closer to God and his word to obey the son to be saved,we are only the hands who plant seeds and watering the seeds thats all ,but God his the one who can make it grow no one else

You said that one can only get closer to God, by obeying the son to be saved.

I disagreed with that. Do you even know what you said there?

So literally i save myself by obeying certain rules.

Or am i saved becasue Jesus died for me, forgiven me, become a new person, so that i can obey his rules?

See the differnence! CAN YOU NOT SEE THAT.

Quote

Again this does not say anything about being saved. If we love Christ we will obey. Thats my point.

Thats what i said, dont steal my point! you need to qoute this!!!! I SAID THIS!!! omgosh… maybe your responding back to this qoute, but you really need to qoute this.

Omgosh!!!!!!! you are getting my nerves because i am literaly wasting my time responding to your nonsense. lol, but i will respond anyways.

Quote

I never said that. Let the record show that i never said that one must not change. Let the record show that in the previous response neither did Terrarica elaborate on that point either.

If anything WE AGREE!!! WOW OMGOSH THERE YOU GO AGAIN. I HAVE CLEARLY WASTED MY TIME BC WE AGREE.

lol omgosh….YOU TOOK WHAT I SAID! OUT OF PROPORTION.

Your statement caused confusion than if you agree. You cant just say that without adding more to it.

If i can easily see that we agree,

yet you call me blind,

yet we agree,

Doesnt that also make you blind?

Get the humor?

why you do not read back our conversation 3 to 4 pages back
you may understand it better ,and grasp the meaning of what i really say to you and why.

and the reason why i say you are blind.

my translation i use is the INV and KJV and others

i only quote you that scripture to show what the love for God does.

so go back to read it again or

Pierre

well first off in the last pages terrarica
we were takling about being obediant to be saved.

You offerd conclusions that agreed to mine.

So there is not point of debating anymore bc obviously we agree.

your last last post, was a bunch of verses referring to what PART of the conversation. we covered many points.

This is why we qoute certain things, and be specfic in what.

if you call me blind yet we agree what does that make you?

Finally the Romans 8:28

THIS IS WHAT YOU POSTED

Quote

Ro 8:28 We know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him. He appointed them to be saved in keeping with his purpose.

WHAT IS THE PURPOSE OF GOD ,SO THAT WE MAY KNOW WHAT SAVE US ?

THIS IS CLEARLY NOT IN THE BIBLE SO YOU DID NOT QOUTE THIS WORD FOR WORD.
I do not know what your intent is. But this can confuse people who do not know scripture, and IRONICALY this scripture is part of my Signature in every post i make.

So this scripture does not mentioned the word saved.

This is where you need intellect to see such mistakes, so one does not get confused.

Its ok if you were just trying to qoute, but use your bible because it just makes me want to check all your verses to see if thats what is realy said or did you just qoute it from your head.

Good night.

May 24, 2010 at 4:32 am#191706

Participant

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ May 24 2010,13:35)

Quote (terraricca @ May 24 2010,04:23)

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ May 23 2010,17:13)

Quote (terraricca @ May 23 2010,03:11)

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ May 22 2010,15:05)

Quote (terraricca @ May 22 2010,11:00)

Jn 15:20 Remember the words I spoke to you: ‘No servant is greater than his master.’ If they persecuted me, they will persecute you also. If they obeyed my teaching, they will obey yours also

you say;;again to respond to one of the verses you made
something caught my eye when i was reading it

Intresting….! isnt it?

Christ can not teach one thing in one gospel and deny is words in an other and by doing so deny the old testament.and the word of God ans the holy spirit.

Pierre

Quote

This does not say that you are saved if you obey, this says you will be blessed.. finally we disagree with something.

Quote

Jn 14:23 Jesus replied, “If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.

Again this does not say anything about being saved. If we love Christ we will obey. Thats my point.

Quote

Ac 4:19 But Peter and John replied, “Judge for yourselves whether it is right in God’s sight to obey you rather than God.

I do not see anything about salvation here?

Quote

Jn 15:20 Remember the words I spoke to you: ‘No servant is greater than his master.’ If they persecuted me, they will persecute you also. If they obeyed my teaching, they will obey yours also

Again salvation?

Quote

[Heb 5:9 and, once made perfect, he(Christ) became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him

Now there is something i will agree with and actualy proves your point better.

I never said that in the end.
I didnt say that Christ denied anything.

Good night,

Im starting to believe you are getting frustrated with every thing i say.

you say;;

Quote

Jn 14:23 Jesus replied, “If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.

Again this does not say anything about being saved. If we love Christ we will obey. Thats my point.

you show me in scriptures that you can be saved without loving God or Christ ?

because if the love of God is not the key then the wicked is saved while being wicket and does not need to change.
and that would only please Satan the deceiver.

i do know and see were you are blind,as i say before your answers are your heart and breath in action,any one who can read it can see it.

Pierre

Terrarica,

Im going to turn the other cheeck to you!

Thank you very much for calling me blind!
Yet this blind man some how agrees with you in many points, and yet you cant see that. wow who is really blind here?

You should ask the spirit about that.

let me correct you on the statement that your claiming that i said. Bc this started with YOUR comment.
.

Quote

they only can come closer to God and his word to obey the son to be saved,we are only the hands who plant seeds and watering the seeds thats all ,but God his the one who can make it grow no one else

You said that one can only get closer to God, by obeying the son to be saved.

I disagreed with that. Do you even know what you said there?

So literally i save myself by obeying certain rules.

Or am i saved becasue Jesus died for me, forgiven me, become a new person, so that i can obey his rules?

See the differnence! CAN YOU NOT SEE THAT.

Quote

Again this does not say anything about being saved. If we love Christ we will obey. Thats my point.

Thats what i said, dont steal my point! you need to qoute this!!!! I SAID THIS!!! omgosh… maybe your responding back to this qoute, but you really need to qoute this.

Omgosh!!!!!!! you are getting my nerves because i am literaly wasting my time responding to your nonsense. lol, but i will respond anyways.

Quote

I never said that. Let the record show that i never said that one must not change. Let the record show that in the previous response neither did Terrarica elaborate on that point either.

If anything WE AGREE!!! WOW OMGOSH THERE YOU GO AGAIN. I HAVE CLEARLY WASTED MY TIME BC WE AGREE.

lol omgosh….YOU TOOK WHAT I SAID! OUT OF PROPORTION.

Your statement caused confusion than if you agree. You cant just say that without adding more to it.

If i can easily see that we agree,

yet you call me blind,

yet we agree,

Doesnt that also make you blind?

Get the humor?

why you do not read back our conversation 3 to 4 pages back
you may understand it better ,and grasp the meaning of what i really say to you and why.

and the reason why i say you are blind.

my translation i use is the INV and KJV and others

i only quote you that scripture to show what the love for God does.

so go back to read it again or

Pierre

well first off in the last pages terrarica
we were takling about being obediant to be saved.

You offerd conclusions that agreed to mine.

So there is not point of debating anymore bc obviously we agree.

your last last post, was a bunch of verses referring to what PART of the conversation. we covered many points.

This is why we qoute certain things, and be specfic in what.

if you call me blind yet we agree what does that make you?

Finally the Romans 8:28

THIS IS WHAT YOU POSTED

Quote

Ro 8:28 We know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him. He appointed them to be saved in keeping with his purpose.

WHAT IS THE PURPOSE OF GOD ,SO THAT WE MAY KNOW WHAT SAVE US ?

So this scripture does not mentioned the word saved.

This is where you need intellect to see such mistakes, so one does not get confused.

Its ok if you were just trying to qoute, but use your bible because it just makes me want to check all your verses to see if thats what is realy said or did you just qoute it from your head.

Good night.

i am concluding from your answer to my respond to you that it is useless to continue this conversation ,

you can discredit me if you want you have already started ,by quoting what you did but this is yours and your way so be it .

i will no longer interfere in your quotes in any subject.

bye my friend

Pierre

May 24, 2010 at 4:42 am#191708

Participant

Quote

I really would like to know your interpretation of two scriptures. and compare with others if you like.

John 10:30 “I and my Father are one.”–

–Simply forgiven.

SF, You asked for my interpretation.
My interpretation is based on other scriptures, and there is another scripture (also written by John) that is extremely similar and that helps us to understand this scripture.

The disciples were to be “one” just as Jesus and his Father were one. They were to be “one” or united. If the question is: In what sense where the Father and Jesus “one” then we can similarly ask, “in what sense were Jesus disciples to be “one”?”

I think it's one in purpose.

If Christ's body is divided, then it will fall.
“Every kingdom divided against itself comes to desolation, and a house [divided] against itself falls.”–Jesus

1 Cor. 1:10: “Now I exhort you, brothers, through the name of our Lord Jesus Christ that you should all speak in agreement, and that there should not be divisions among you, but that you may be fitly united in the same mind and in the same line of thought.”

May 24, 2010 at 4:50 am#191710

Participant

Quote

so i think that the oneness of the true christians i guess would be more than just the message.

–SF

Yes, of course, Being “one” means you don't try to kill each other in wars. It means you love one another.

JOHN 13:35
“By this all will know that YOU are my disciples, if YOU have love among yourselves.””
Having love among themselves will be a true mark of genuine Christianity, and of course is needed in true unity, or oneness.

Also, you have the same goals in life, the same purpose in life. You should believe the same things about God, and so I think, be preaching the same message. All these things, including love, add to the unity. They would be like brothers and sisters.

“Have love for the whole association of brothers in the world.”

May 24, 2010 at 5:02 am#191712