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Quote (Lightenup @ April 26 2010,18:34) Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 26 2010,01:39) Quote (Lightenup @ April 26 2010,16:40) Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 26 2010,00:25) Hi LU,
You need these experts to tell you what the words mean?
What of the Spirit?
Nick,
I have known what this verse meant for a long time before I read these NET notes for the first time tonight. I was just trying to help you since you don't really seem to take my word for it, I thought that I would give you the experts view. Gee, even when I give you the experts view you have trouble with it. I can't please you one way or the other. If I give you my opinion you will say something like, “Why trust your opinions, why not follow the words of Christ” and then when I give you the experts opinion you say “You need these experts to tell you what the words mean? What of the Spirit?”It was the Spirit that showed me the same view as these NET translators, ok…satisfied? You can find it somewhere in the message board when I addressed Thinker about this very same verse.
My question to you is why didn't you know what this verse meant? If you did, you wouldn't have brought it up. What of the Spirit that you seek?
Hi LU,
Experts have led folk away from truth for 2000 years.
I have no wish to share their pit.
Nick,
Your ignorant comments never cease. You appear to me as if you are your own god. You have just judged those who are experts as all leaders away from the truth. No wonder we can't get anywhere with your logic. You are god and you make the rulings. One minute you rule one way and the next post you rule the opposite. Amazing!You don't tell us why they are wrong there in my post to you. Their fault seems to be that they are 'experts' according to you. Did you grow up in school saying to the teacher that you weren't going to listen to them because all teachers are stupid and are just going to lead everyone away from the truth? Give me a break!
Test all things and prove all things, that is what we are supposed to do. Do you think that you are just supposed to pick a comment out of the derogatory comment box and type away?
Hi LU,The Pharisees and the Sadducees were the experts in Jesus day, but what did Jesus say about them? (Matt.16:6)
The systems of religion and traditions of men communicate…distortions of truth, confusion of mind, and distractions of spirit.
Your ideas can be discussed, giving you an opportunity to see things differently, bring your 'experts' here NOT THEIR USELESS WORDS!Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 26 2010,09:10) What does that mean? If God is three equal persons, can one be “higher” than the others?
Yes. Why not?Quote Equal is equal. Equal God doesn't have one as captain and one as leiutenant, etc. If it does, equal doesn't mean equal no matter how many five dollar words you use. The more you try to rationalize, the more asinine your doctrine becomes.
Just stating it doesn't give it credence. Explain to me why a God who is multipersonal could not have a hierarchy between those persons. Give me a rational, logical answer Mike.Quote Now wait a minute. Is your godhead ONE being consisting of three persons, or THREE separate beings?
One being, three persons.Quote And if the president of a company sends a representative to take care of business, that representative can “exactly represent” the president of the company without being him, or even equal to him.
Exact representation of His hypostasis. Think it through Mike. If Yeshua has an identical nature/being to the Father on what logical grounds could it be argued that He is an inferior being?Quote As far as you Vine's info, so what? Of course Jesus would have the divine essence of his Father and his God. Jehovah created him, didn't he?
There is not one verse in the entire Bible that shows or even aludes to the logos being a “creation” of the Father.If he has a divine essence then he is by definition a divine being. Since biblical monotheism affirms the existence of only one divine being then that would make Yeshua YHVH.
Quote Yes Paul, Jesus can do anything his God, Jehovah gives him the power and authority to do.
So you concede your original exegesis of the third clause of Hebrews 1:3 was nonsense then?Quote Sounds like the comparison I have been using of Joseph and the Pharaoh. The person of high rank is Jehovah. He put Jesus on his right hand. He effectively gave Jesus His signet ring to rule for Himself. God has given Jesus “acting authority” for the time being. Instead of meaning Jesus is in fact God, it means something quite different. It means that God is the one with the power to put whoever he chooses at not only his right hand, but Jesus' also according to this Scripture
More Watchtower rhetoric….This is a more scriptural explanation – The preincarnate Yeshua divested himself of the prerogatives, attributes and privileges assosiated with divinity and took on the form of a human bondservant (Phil 2:5-8, John 1:1-3, 14). At the completion of His redemptive work these were restored to Him (Philippians 2:9, Hebrews 1:9; 2:7-9).Quote So while it is clear that your info was prepared by a trinitarian judging from the use of the word LORD and the capital “H”, Therefore, what we can say is that “God's right hand” refers to the Messiah, the LORD Jesus Christ and He is of equal position, honor, power and authority with God, it doesn't say anything about Jesus actually BEING God, does it?
I wasn't arguing for that. I was just pointing out your misunderstanding of the phrase “sitting at the right hand of God”Quote While Joseph had “equal” authority with Pharaoh, he was still a servant of Pharaoh, just like Acts 4 says that Jesus is still a servant of God. I've endured your trinitarian's thoughts on the right hand. You can endure my Watchtower info. To be on the right hand of a ruler was to have the most important position, next to the ruler himself, or a position in his favor.
This makes perfect sense in the case of Joseph and Pharaoh, why must you try to change it in the case of Jesus and Jehovah? The Witnesses also have some very good points you need to actually answer, not just dismiss because the Watchtower is the Devil.
The watchtower isn't the devil, but it's one of his tools.
Your borrowed analogy has one obvious flaw. Pharoah and Joseph are ontologically equivalents. Your supposed to be arguing for Yeshua having an inferior being to the Father, aren't you?
Quote one [Jesus] . . . to his right hand.” (Acts 5:31) Paul said: “God exalted him to a superior position.” (Philippians 2:9) If Jesus had been God, how could Jesus have been exalted, that is, raised to a higher position than he had previously enjoyed? He would already have been an exalted part of the Trinity. If, before his exaltation, Jesus had been equal to God, exalting him any further would have made him superior to God.
Already answered above. The preincarnate Yeshua “emptied” Himself…..Quote Paul also said that Christ entered “heaven itself, so that he could appear in the actual presence of God on our behalf.” (Hebrews 9:24, JB) If you appear in someone else’s presence, how can you be that person? You cannot. You must be different and separate.
This is a legitimate refutation of modalism, not trinitarianism….Quote Similarly, just before being stoned to death, the martyr Stephen “gazed into heaven and caught sight of God’s glory and of Jesus standing at God’s right hand.” (Acts 7:55) Clearly, he saw two separate individuals—but no holy spirit, no Trinity Godhead.
1. The phrase “standing at the right hand of God” does not denote these two personages LITERALLY standing ne
xt to eachother.2. Even if it did this is evidence against modalism, not trinitarianism.
Quote In the account at Revelation 4:8 to 5:7, God is shown seated on his heavenly throne, but Jesus is not. He has to approach God to take a scroll from God’s right hand. This shows that in heaven Jesus is not God but is separate from him.
As above. As we've already covered off in another thread the Father is usually designated “theos” and Yeshua “kurios” (or Jesus or Christ etc) when both are in view in scripture. Theos and kurios are both appropriate appelatives for a divine personage. Or if Yeshua is ascibed a personal name, this also is not evidence against Him being God….Quote Again, so what? Of course Jesus had “essential attributes” of God. He is God's Son. And yes, Jesus was in the nature of God. God is spirit. So was Jesus at that time. (And now again.)
Again, I was just correcting you ridiculous exegesis of the Hebrews 1:3 clause…Quote Even better! I'm glad that you have to research every word used. TRUE believers only have to do that in certain verses. Because, no matter what definition you try to use, it still does not end up saying, “Jesus is God Almighty.” 
The inference is if the fullness of deity has permanently settled on Yeshua's body, thereby making him divine. True believers don't ignore blatant statements of deity ascribed to Yeshua. That is why we will not die in our sins (John 8:24).Quote No, it just means that Jesus is in fact God's begotten Son and therefore is an awful lot like God Himself.
Jesus is an “aweful lot like God” huh? How do you reconcile that statement with this verse?Isaiah 46:9
Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,Quote Are you for real, man? 
One is God, the other is someone other than God. It is very clearly stated in all of those Scriptures, plus hundreds more. I wish one of you three would actually answer the questions I've been asking for a while:
As addressed earlier in this post, you've essentially made an etymological argument (not a valid one though), NOT and ontological one. Not one of the verses speaks of the being of God. I have quoted you at least one verse that shows the being of the Father is identical to the being of the Son.Mike. Find me a verse that shows a disparity in the being of the Father and Son. THEN you'll have something (BTW: showing Yeshua has a human nature will not suffice for obvious reasons).
Quote “Inventors”?? Are you claiming the RCC “invented” the Trinity doctrine? The doctrine was codified at the Nicene Council in A.D 325. Roman Catholicism, as we know it today, developed several centuries later, arguably in the 16th century. Looks like you have a significant timeline discrepancy to deal with. Really?
And in 325, was it called the Catholic Church or not? And in 325, was the Holy Spirit included in the godhead? Or was your third god added later?
The word “catholic” in that context means “universal”. The original model was quite a different beast to the Roman Catholic Church we know today. Study early church history Mike.This will get you started:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/Quote The ones who tried to assimilate the pagan triad gods into the new religion of Christianity.
riiiight…..
Quote Okay. Is Jesus now Solomon? It's a simple question.
The point is from the perspective of the Hebrews writer 2 Sam 7:14 (or part of it) was messianic. I've aligned my theology with the writer's, you haven't. That's where it stands.Quote I have already given the info. You just fail to be able to dispute it, so you ask the same question over and over. “LORD” is how newer Bibles translate “YHVH”. “Lord” is a title. Hebrews does not use “YHVH” does it?
Mike!You've already conceded Ps 102:25 is a reference to YHVH! The exact same word, from Ps 102:25 (in the Greek septuagint) is applied to Yeshua in Hebrews 1:10!
There can be no further debate on the matter.
Case closed.
I'm moving on to other committments now Mike. Feel free to reply to this post but I'm happy to leave it there.
Quote (Is 1:18 @ April 26 2010,21:27) Isaiah 46:9
Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
Hi Isaiah 1:18,How do you reconcile what you Posted to what Isaiah 46:9 “Actually Says”…
Isaiah 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I God, and there is none else; I God, and there is none like me,
Isaiah 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done,
saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:Quote (Ed J @ April 26 2010,04:29) Quote (Lightenup @ April 26 2010,18:34) Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 26 2010,01:39) Quote (Lightenup @ April 26 2010,16:40) Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 26 2010,00:25) Hi LU,
You need these experts to tell you what the words mean?
What of the Spirit?
Nick,
I have known what this verse meant for a long time before I read these NET notes for the first time tonight. I was just trying to help you since you don't really seem to take my word for it, I thought that I would give you the experts view. Gee, even when I give you the experts view you have trouble with it. I can't please you one way or the other. If I give you my opinion you will say something like, “Why trust your opinions, why not follow the words of Christ” and then when I give you the experts opinion you say “You need these experts to tell you what the words mean? What of the Spirit?”It was the Spirit that showed me the same view as these NET translators, ok…satisfied? You can find it somewhere in the message board when I addressed Thinker about this very same verse.
My question to you is why didn't you know what this verse meant? If you did, you wouldn't have brought it up. What of the Spirit that you seek?
Hi LU,
Experts have led folk away from truth for 2000 years.
I have no wish to share their pit.
Nick,
Your ignorant comments never cease. You appear to me as if you are your own god. You have just judged those who are experts as all leaders away from the truth. No wonder we can't get anywhere with your logic. You are god and you make the rulings. One minute you rule one way and the next post you rule the opposite. Amazing!You don't tell us why they are wrong there in my post to you. Their fault seems to be that they are 'experts' according to you. Did you grow up in school saying to the teacher that you weren't going to listen to them because all teachers are stupid and are just going to lead everyone away from the truth? Give me a break!
Test all things and prove all things, that is what we are supposed to do. Do you think that you are just supposed to pick a comment out of the derogatory comment box and type away?
Hi LU,The Pharisees and the Sadducees were the experts in Jesus day, but what did Jesus say about them? (Matt.16:6)
The systems of religion and traditions of men communicate…distortions of truth, confusion of mind, and distractions of spirit.
Your ideas can be discussed, giving you an opportunity to see things differently, bring your 'experts' here NOT THEIR USELESS WORDS!
Edj,
I can't bring the translators of the NET Bible here. I don't always agree with their conclusions, but when I have sought God on a matter, I confirm it with wise counsel, so-called experts, and other perspectives. In this case, I agree with the NET Bible's translator notes. If you disagree, bring your proof. I am here to discuss what I believe the Bible says about this or that. I don't think that “the systems of religion and traditions of men communicate distortions of truth confusion of mind, and distractions of spirit,” is actually evidence that the NET translators are wrong here.Quote (Ed J @ April 26 2010,04:11) Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 26 2010,17:07) Hi Kathi, I think it refers to anybody or anything God used to fulfill His purpose. What I have so far is not conclusive, but it's a start.
You think in Genesis 18, there are two angels and Jehovah the Son. But verse two starts off saying, 2 When he raised his eyes, then he looked and there three men were standing some distance from him.
Verse 3 says, 3 Then he said: “Jehovah, if, now, I have found favor in your eyes, please do not pass by your servant
It doesn't seem that Abraham singled one of the men out and said that, for verse 5 says, At this they said: “All right. You may do just as you have spoken.”
It doesn't seem to me that one of the “men” had authority over the others. It seems as if Abraham knew they were all messengers of Jehovah, and called them by the name Jehovah.
Verse 9 starts with, 9 They now said to him, and verse 13 says, Then Jehovah said to Abraham:
Verse 22 sounds a little suspicious, 22 At this point the men turned from there and got on their way to Sod′om; but as for Jehovah, he was still standing before Abraham.
It seems at this point, that one IS Jehovah, and the other two are angels, and it sounds the same at the beginning of the next chapter.
Chapter 19 starts with, 19 Now the two angels arrived at Sod′om by evening, and Lot was sitting in the gate of Sod′om
And all the way to verse 17, it is only the two angels with Lot, 17 And it came about that, as soon as they had brought them forth to the outskirts, he began to say: “Escape for your soul! Do not look behind you and do not stand still in all the District! Escape to the mountainous region for fear you may be swept away!”
Now it is one of the two angels that said this last part. But look at the next verse, 18 Then Lot said to them: “Not that, please, Jehovah!
So he is calling two angels Jehovah. The third one who you think is Jehovah the Son is not even present at this time. So what gives? The wording is definitely interesting, but I don't think it says the Jehovah God Almighty, or even his Son (who btw is not named Jehovah), was actually present in person. That would contradict the fact that no one can see God's face and live.
But the reason I brought this passage up is 19:13, which says, 13 For we are bringing this place to ruin, because the outcry against them has grown loud before Jehovah, so that Jehovah sent us to bring the city to ruin.”
Although the words “outstretched arm” are not there, the angels are indeed the tool that Jehovah uses to fulfill this particular purpose.
peace and love,
mike
Hi Mike,I asked Kathi to explore these apparent discrepancies in her formula, but she seemed to have do desire for resolution?
Excellent commentary: I only hope LU will now feel the need to find agreement in what the Scriptures are “really” telling us!Your Brother in Christ!
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Edj,
I think my beliefs on Gen 18 and 19 are definitely in line with scripture here. I have no need for resolution, this matter has been resolved for me for many years. You just have to read it and it is explained. There were two angels and Jehovah, the one that was the Outstretched Arm that interacts with creation face to face at times, invisible at other times and interacts through the Comforter. Two are called Jehovah, the Father and the Son. The Father gave His name to the Son. The Father always existed, the Son came from the Father in a begotten (procreated) way before anything was in heaven or on earth.Thanks for your apparent concern though.
People,
I have just looked at the verses specified.
Lot is talking to Jehovah 'through' the angels. When Jehovah speaks the angels are themselves silent of their own voice.
The angels are just mouthpieces – please do not look upon angels as 'Sentient Owning Creatures' when in the presence of God – they know their place – When a KING is speaking, does a servant dare utter a word of his own? and how much more servantile are angels to God, even in their mighty power, than a human servant to his King!Angels are often refered to as “LORD” because the Hebrews recognised that the presence was one of greatness and feared that it might be God himself (Better safe than sorry) This is also why there are all those 'Falling down to worship' events.
Lot recognised the awesome power of the angels and then that he was in the presence of God (Not of the angels [the men] – but through the angels [the men]) and address “them” in the singular “LORD” – not TO them – but THROUGH Them.
Notice that no where after does it say that the 'Angels [the men] said…' but 'He said…' and thereafter also the angels [the men] are spoken of no more but it is Jehovah who address Lot and completes the event.
Quote (JustAskin @ April 26 2010,13:52) People, I have just looked at the verses specified.
Lot is talking to Jehovah 'through' the angels. When Jehovah speaks the angels are themselves silent of their own voice.
The angels are just mouthpieces – please do not look upon angels as 'Sentient Owning Creatures' when in the presence of God – they know their place – When a KING is speaking, does a servant dare utter a word of his own? and how much more servantile are angels to God, even in their mighty power, than a human servant to his King!Angels are often refered to as “LORD” because the Hebrews recognised that the presence was one of greatness and feared that it might be God himself (Better safe than sorry) This is also why there are all those 'Falling down to worship' events.
Lot recognised the awesome power of the angels and then that he was in the presence of God (Not of the angels [the men] – but through the angels [the men]) and address “them” in the singular “LORD” – not TO them – but THROUGH Them.
Notice that no where after does it say that the 'Angels [the men] said…' but 'He said…' and thereafter also the angels [the men] are spoken of no more but it is Jehovah who address Lot and completes the event.
Just Askin,
Lot and Abraham address the three 'men' not as 'Jehovah' but as 'Adonai.' The address 'Adonai' can be used with men or God. The two chapters are really not as complicated as you want to make them. Just read them, pay attention to the personal pronouns to show you who is speaking, also pay attention to whether the person is in the first person (I, my, me, we), second person (you, yourselves), or third person (him, they, he, his), etc. This should help. Read my post on page 66 of this thread, 8th post down.Again, the angels are not being referred to as Jehovah (LORD) but as Adonai (Lord) by Abraham and Lot. That does not dismiss the fact that one of the three is being referred to as Jehovah by the writer, and that one is speaking in the first person voice and is saying that He is the one that is going to destroy Sodom near the end of Gen 18. The other two are being referred to as angels by the writer.
Hi LU,
We know you are convinced in your own mind about these matters.
Is that enough to hold up as truth before our awesome God?
What is truth-just a smorgasbord of opinions??Quote (Lightenup @ April 27 2010,04:54) Quote (Ed J @ April 26 2010,04:29) Quote (Lightenup @ April 26 2010,18:34) Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 26 2010,01:39) Quote (Lightenup @ April 26 2010,16:40) Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 26 2010,00:25) Hi LU,
You need these experts to tell you what the words mean?
What of the Spirit?
Nick,
I have known what this verse meant for a long time before I read these NET notes for the first time tonight. I was just trying to help you since you don't really seem to take my word for it, I thought that I would give you the experts view. Gee, even when I give you the experts view you have trouble with it. I can't please you one way or the other. If I give you my opinion you will say something like, “Why trust your opinions, why not follow the words of Christ” and then when I give you the experts opinion you say “You need these experts to tell you what the words mean? What of the Spirit?”It was the Spirit that showed me the same view as these NET translators, ok…satisfied? You can find it somewhere in the message board when I addressed Thinker about this very same verse.
My question to you is why didn't you know what this verse meant? If you did, you wouldn't have brought it up. What of the Spirit that you seek?
Hi LU,
Experts have led folk away from truth for 2000 years.
I have no wish to share their pit.
Nick,
Your ignorant comments never cease. You appear to me as if you are your own god. You have just judged those who are experts as all leaders away from the truth. No wonder we can't get anywhere with your logic. You are god and you make the rulings. One minute you rule one way and the next post you rule the opposite. Amazing!You don't tell us why they are wrong there in my post to you. Their fault seems to be that they are 'experts' according to you. Did you grow up in school saying to the teacher that you weren't going to listen to them because all teachers are stupid and are just going to lead everyone away from the truth? Give me a break!
Test all things and prove all things, that is what we are supposed to do. Do you think that you are just supposed to pick a comment out of the derogatory comment box and type away?
Hi LU,The Pharisees and the Sadducees were the experts in Jesus day, but what did Jesus say about them? (Matt.16:6)
The systems of religion and traditions of men communicate…distortions of truth, confusion of mind, and distractions of spirit.
Your ideas can be discussed, giving you an opportunity to see things differently, bring your 'experts' here NOT THEIR USELESS WORDS!
Edj,
I can't bring the translators of the NET Bible here. I don't always agree with their conclusions, but when I have sought God on a matter, I confirm it with wise counsel, so-called experts, and other perspectives. In this case, I agree with the NET Bible's translator notes. If you disagree, bring your proof.
Hi LU,Why don't you show what you disagree with that your experts say and why? Practice what you Preach!
Quote (Lightenup @ April 27 2010,05:05) Quote (Ed J @ April 26 2010,04:11) Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 26 2010,17:07) Hi Kathi, I think it refers to anybody or anything God used to fulfill His purpose. What I have so far is not conclusive, but it's a start.
You think in Genesis 18, there are two angels and Jehovah the Son. But verse two starts off saying, 2 When he raised his eyes, then he looked and there three men were standing some distance from him.
Verse 3 says, 3 Then he said: “Jehovah, if, now, I have found favor in your eyes, please do not pass by your servant
It doesn't seem that Abraham singled one of the men out and said that, for verse 5 says, At this they said: “All right. You may do just as you have spoken.”
It doesn't seem to me that one of the “men” had authority over the others. It seems as if Abraham knew they were all messengers of Jehovah, and called them by the name Jehovah.
Verse 9 starts with, 9 They now said to him, and verse 13 says, Then Jehovah said to Abraham:
Verse 22 sounds a little suspicious, 22 At this point the men turned from there and got on their way to Sod′om; but as for Jehovah, he was still standing before Abraham.
It seems at this point, that one IS Jehovah, and the other two are angels, and it sounds the same at the beginning of the next chapter.
Chapter 19 starts with, 19 Now the two angels arrived at Sod′om by evening, and Lot was sitting in the gate of Sod′om
And all the way to verse 17, it is only the two angels with Lot, 17 And it came about that, as soon as they had brought them forth to the outskirts, he began to say: “Escape for your soul! Do not look behind you and do not stand still in all the District! Escape to the mountainous region for fear you may be swept away!”
Now it is one of the two angels that said this last part. But look at the next verse, 18 Then Lot said to them: “Not that, please, Jehovah!
So he is calling two angels Jehovah. The third one who you think is Jehovah the Son is not even present at this time. So what gives? The wording is definitely interesting, but I don't think it says the Jehovah God Almighty, or even his Son (who btw is not named Jehovah), was actually present in person. That would contradict the fact that no one can see God's face and live.
But the reason I brought this passage up is 19:13, which says, 13 For we are bringing this place to ruin, because the outcry against them has grown loud before Jehovah, so that Jehovah sent us to bring the city to ruin.”
Although the words “outstretched arm” are not there, the angels are indeed the tool that Jehovah uses to fulfill this particular purpose.
peace and love,
mike
Hi Mike,I asked Kathi to explore these apparent discrepancies in her formula, but she seemed to have do desire for resolution?
Excellent commentary: I only hope LU will now feel the need to find agreement in what the Scriptures are “really” telling us!Your Brother in Christ!
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Edj,
I think my beliefs on Gen 18 and 19 are definitely in line with scripture here. I have no need for resolution, this matter has been resolved for me for many years. You just have to read it and it is explained. There were two angels and Jehovah, the one that was the Outstretched Arm that interacts with creation face to face at times, invisible at other times and interacts through the Comforter. Two are called Jehovah, the Father and the Son. The Father gave His name to the Son. The Father always existed, the Son came from the Father in a begotten (procreated) way before anything was in heaven or on earth.Thanks for your apparent concern though.
Hi LU,Since you 'say' you are here to discuss your beliefs with us,
then why don't you address each of Mike Boll's points to you?God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Lightenup @ April 26 2010,02:19) Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 26 2010,01:07) Quote (Lightenup @ April 26 2010,10:43) The Father tells us they are one in the OT when He speaks of Himself and His Outstretched Arm as one. We know the Outstretched Arm is the Son.
Hi Kathi,I am finally taking the time to look into the outstretched arm. It seems that you think it always refers to the Son. I think it refers to anybody or anything God used to fulfill His purpose. What I have so far is not conclusive, but it's a start.
You think in Genesis 18, there are two angels and Jehovah the Son. But verse two starts off saying, 2 When he raised his eyes, then he looked and there three men were standing some distance from him.
Verse 3 says, 3 Then he said: “Jehovah, if, now, I have found favor in your eyes, please do not pass by your servant
It doesn't seem that Abraham singled one of the men out and said that, for verse 5 says, At this they said: “All right. You may do just as you have spoken.”
It doesn't seem to me that one of the “men” had authority over the others. It seems as if Abraham knew they were all messengers of Jehovah, and called them by the name Jehovah.
Verse 9 starts with, 9 They now said to him, and verse 13 says, Then Jehovah said to Abraham:
Verse 22 sounds a little suspicious, 22 At this point the men turned from there and got on their way to Sod′om; but as for Jehovah, he was still standing before Abraham.
It seems at this point, that one IS Jehovah, and the other two are angels, and it sounds the same at the beginning of the next chapter.
Chapter 19 starts with, 19 Now the two angels arrived at Sod′om by evening, and Lot was sitting in the gate of Sod′om
And all the way to verse 17, it is only the two angels with Lot, 17 And it came about that, as soon as they had brought them forth to the outskirts, he began to say: “Escape for your soul! Do not look behind you and do not stand still in all the District! Escape to the mountainous region for fear you may be swept away!”
Now it is one of the two angels that said this last part. But look at the next verse, 18 Then Lot said to them: “Not that, please, Jehovah!
So he is calling two angels Jehovah. The third one who you think is Jehovah the Son is not even present at this time. So what gives? The wording is definitely interesting, but I don't think it says the Jehovah God Almighty, or even his Son (who btw is not named Jehovah), was actually present in person. That would contradict the fact that no one can see God's face and live.
But the reason I brought this passage up is 19:13, which says, 13 For we are bringing this place to ruin, because the outcry against them has grown loud before Jehovah, so that Jehovah sent us to bring the city to ruin.”
Although the words “outstretched arm” are not there, the angels are indeed the tool that Jehovah uses to fulfill this particular purpose.
And this passage from Ezekiel 20 doesn't seem to me to be about Jesus. 31 And in lifting up YOUR gifts by making YOUR sons pass through the fire, are YOU defiling yourselves for all YOUR dungy idols down till today? At the same time shall I myself be inquired of by YOU people, O house of Israel?”’
“‘As I am alive,’ is the utterance of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah, ‘I will not be inquired of by YOU. 32 And that which is coming up into YOUR spirit will itself positively not happen, in that YOU are saying: “Let us become like the nations, like the families of the lands, in ministering to wood and stone.”’”
33 “‘As I am alive,’ is the utterance of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah, ‘it will be with a strong hand and with a stretched-out arm and with outpoured rage that I will rule as king over YOU people. 34 And I will bring YOU forth from the peoples, and I will collect YOU together out of the lands to which YOU have been scattered with a strong hand and with a stretched-out arm and with outpoured rage. 35 And I will bring YOU into the wilderness of the peoples and put myself on judgment with YOU there face to face.
Another passage is in Kings 19, 34 And I shall certainly defend this city to save it for my own sake and for the sake of David my servant.”’”
35 And it came about on that night that the angel of Jehovah proceeded to go out and strike down a hundred and eighty-five thousand in the camp of the As‧syr′i‧ans.
Again, I can't seem to link the words “outstretched arm” with something that was decidedly not done directly by Jesus, but I'm still looking. I'm tired, goodnight.
peace and love,
mike
Mike,
Thanks for your post. It seems that whatever translation you are reading, the translators are putting in more “Jehovah's” than what is in the Hebrew as “Jehovah.” I will put up chapters 18 and 19 of Genesis and I will make bold every mention of Jehovah according to the Englishman's Concordance that I have on my computer. You will see under careful observation that neither Abraham nor Lot address anyone by the name Jehovah in these two chapters. However, the third of the three “men” is referred to as Jehovah by Jehovah Himself and by the two angels.Quote Gen 18-19
18 And the Lord appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day;2 And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground,3 And said, My Lord, if now I have found favour in thy sight, pass not away, I pray thee, from thy servant:4 Let a little water, I pray you, be fetched, and wash your feet, and rest yourselves under the tree:5 And I will fetch a morsel of bread, and comfort ye your hearts; after that ye shall pass on: for therefore are ye come to your servant. And they said, So do, as thou hast said.6 And Abraham hastened into the tent unto Sarah, and said, Make ready quickly three measures of fine meal, knead it, and make cakes upon the hearth.7 And Abraham ran unto the herd, and fetcht a calf tender and good, and gave it unto a young man; and he hasted to dress it.8 And he took butter, and milk, and the calf which he had dressed, and set it before them; and he stood by them under the tree, and they did eat.9 And they said unto him, Where is Sarah thy wife? And he said, Behold, in the tent.10 And he said, I will certainly return unto thee according to the time of life; and, lo, Sarah thy wife shall have a son. And Sarah heard it in the tent door, which was behind him.11 Now Abraham and Sarah were old and well stricken in age; and it ceas
ed to be with Sarah after the manner of women.12 Therefore Sarah laughed within herself, saying, After I am waxed old shall I have pleasure, my lord being old also?13 And the Lord said unto Abraham, Wherefore did Sarah laugh, saying, Shall I of a surety bear a child, which am old?14 Is any thing too hard for the Lord? At the time appointed I will return unto thee, according to the time of life, and Sarah shall have a son.15 Then Sarah denied, saying, I laughed not; for she was afraid. And he said, Nay; but thou didst laugh.16 And the men rose up from thence, and looked toward Sodom: and Abraham went with them to bring them on the way.17 And the Lord said, Shall I hide from Abraham that thing which I do;18 Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him?19 For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the Lord, to do justice and judgment; that the Lord may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.20 And the Lord said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;21 I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.22 And the men turned their faces from thence, and went toward Sodom: but Abraham stood yet before the Lord.23 And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked?24 Peradventure there be fifty righteous within the city: wilt thou also destroy and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that are therein?25 That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?26 And the Lord said, If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sakes.27 And Abraham answered and said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord, which am but dust and ashes:28 Peradventure there shall lack five of the fifty righteous: wilt thou destroy all the city for lack of five? And he said, If I find there forty and five, I will not destroy it.29 And he spake unto him yet again, and said, Peradventure there shall be forty found there. And he said, I will not do it for forty's sake.30 And he said unto him, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak: Peradventure there shall thirty be found there. And he said, I will not do it, if I find thirty there.31 And he said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord: Peradventure there shall be twenty found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for twenty's sake.32 And he said, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak yet but this once: Peradventure ten shall be found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for ten's sake.33 And the Lord went his way, as soon as he had left communing with Abraham: and Abraham returned unto his place.19 And there came two angels to Sodom at even; and Lot sat in the gate of Sodom: and Lot seeing them rose up to meet them; and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground;2 And he said, Behold now, my lords, turn in, I pray you, into your servant's house, and tarry all night, and wash your feet, and ye shall rise up early, and go on your ways. And they said, Nay; but we will abide in the street all night.3 And he pressed upon them greatly; and they turned in unto him, and entered into his house; and he made them a feast, and did bake unleavened bread, and they did eat.4 But before they lay down, the men of the city, even the men of Sodom, compassed the house round, both old and young, all the people from every quarter:5 And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them.6 And Lot went out at the door unto them, and shut the door after him,7 And said, I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly.8 Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof.9 And they said, Stand back. And they said again, This one fellow came in to sojourn, and he will needs be a judge: now will we deal worse with thee, than with them. And they pressed sore upon the man, even Lot, and came near to break the door.10 But the men put forth their hand, and pulled Lot into the house to them, and shut to the door.11 And they smote the men that were at the door of the house with blindness, both small and great: so that they wearied themselves to find the door.12 And the men said unto Lot, Hast thou here any besides? son in law, and thy sons, and thy daughters, and whatsoever thou hast in the city, bring them out of this place:13 For we will destroy this place, because the cry of them is waxen great before the face of the Lord; and the Lord hath sent us to destroy it.14 And Lot went out, and spake unto his sons in law, which married his daughters, and said, Up, get you out of this place; for the Lord will destroy this city. But he seemed as one that mocked unto his sons in law.15 And when the morning arose, then the angels hastened Lot, saying, Arise, take thy wife, and thy two daughters, which are here; lest thou be consumed in the iniquity of the city.16 And while he lingered, the men laid hold upon his hand, and upon the hand of his wife, and upon the hand of his two daughters; the Lord being merciful unto him: and they brought him forth, and set him without the city.17 And it came to pass, when they had brought them forth abroad, that he said, Escape for thy life; look not behind thee, neither stay thou in all the plain; escape to the mountain, lest thou be consumed.18 And Lot said unto them, Oh, not so, my Lord:19 Behold now, thy servant hath found grace in thy sight, and thou hast magnified thy mercy, which thou hast shewed unto me in saving my life; and I cannot escape to the mountain, lest some evil take me, and I die:20 Behold now, this city is near to flee unto, and it is a little one: Oh, let me escape thither, (is it not a little one?) and my soul shall live.21 And he said unto him, See, I have accepted thee concerning this thing also, that I will not overthrow this city, for the which thou hast spoken.22 Haste thee, escape thither; for I cannot do any thing till thou be come thither. Therefore the name of the city was called Zoar.23 The sun was risen upon the earth when Lot entered into Zoar.24 Then the Lord rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the Lord out of heaven;25 And he overthrew those cities, and all the plain, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and that which grew upon the ground.26 But his wife looked back from behind him, and she became a pillar of salt.27 And Abraham gat up early in the morning to the place where he stood before the Lord:28 And he looked toward Sodom and Gomorrah, and toward all the land of the plain, and beheld, and, lo, the smoke of the country went up as the smoke of a furnace.29 And it came to pass, when God destroyed the cities of the plain, that God remembered Abraham, and sent Lot out of the midst of the overthrow, when he overthrew the cities in the which Lot dwelt.30 And Lot went up out of Zoar, and dwelt in the mountain, and his two daughters with him; for he feared to dwell in Zoar: and he dwelt in a cave, he and his two daughters.31 And the firstborn said unto the younger, Our father is old, and there is not a man in the earth to come in unto us after the manner of all the earth:32 Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father.33 And they made their father drink wine that night: and the firstborn went in, and lay with her father; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose.34 And it came to pass on the morrow, that the firstborn sai
d unto the younger, Behold, I lay yesternight with my father: let us make him drink wine this night also; and go thou in, and lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father.35 And they made their father drink wine that night also: and the younger arose, and lay with him; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose.36 Thus were both the daughters of Lot with child by their father.37 And the firstborn bare a son, and called his name Moab: the same is the father of the Moabites unto this day.38 And the younger, she also bare a son, and called his name Benammi: the same is the father of the children of Ammon unto this day.
KJVyou said:
Quote You think in Genesis 18, there are two angels and Jehovah the Son. But verse two starts off saying, 2 When he raised his eyes, then he looked and there three men were standing some distance from him.
Jehovah and the two angels appeared as men, they are able to appear as men and not be men…it's a supernatural thing.Abraham came to understand they were not mere men when they knew his wife's name, and this is shown when Abe had this conversation with Jehovah:
but Abraham stood yet before the Lord.23 And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked?24 Peradventure there be fifty righteous within the city: wilt thou also destroy and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that are therein?25 That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?26 And the Lord said, If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sakes.27 And Abraham answered and said, but Abraham stood yet before the Lord.23 And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked?24 Peradventure there be fifty righteous within the city: wilt thou also destroy and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that are therein?25 That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?26 And the Lord said, If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sakes.27 And Abraham answered and said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord, which am but dust and ashes:28 Peradventure there shall lack five of the fifty righteous: wilt thou destroy all the city for lack of five? And he said, If I find there forty and five, I will not destroy it.29 And he spake unto him yet again, and said, Peradventure there shall be forty found there. And he said, I will not do it for forty's sake.30 And he said unto him, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak: Peradventure there shall thirty be found there. And he said, I will not do it, if I find thirty there.31 And he said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord: Peradventure there shall be twenty found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for twenty's sake.32 And he said, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak yet but this once: Peradventure ten shall be found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for ten's sake.33 And the Lord went his way, as soon as he had left communing with Abraham: and Abraham returned unto his place.but Abraham stood yet before the Lord.23 And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked?24 Peradventure there be fifty righteous within the city: wilt thou also destroy and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that are therein?25 That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?26 And the Lord said, If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sakes.27 And Abraham answered and said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord, which am but dust and ashes:28 Peradventure there shall lack five of the fifty righteous: wilt thou destroy all the city for lack of five? And he said, If I find there forty and five, I will not destroy it.29 And he spake unto him yet again, and said, Peradventure there shall be forty found there. And he said, I will not do it for forty's sake.30 And he said unto him, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak: Peradventure there shall thirty be found there. And he said, I will not do it, if I find thirty there.31 And he said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord: Peradventure there shall be twenty found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for twenty's sake.32 And he said, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak yet but this once: Peradventure ten shall be found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for ten's sake.33 And the Lord went his way, as soon as he had left communing with Abraham: and Abraham returned unto his place.Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord, which am but dust and ashes:28 Peradventure there shall lack five of the fifty righteous: wilt thou destroy all the city for lack of five? And he said, If I find there forty and five, I will not destroy it.29 And he spake unto him yet again, and said, Peradventure there shall be forty found there. And he said, I will not do it for forty's sake.30 And he said unto him, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak: Peradventure there shall thirty be found there. And he said, I will not do it, if I find thirty there.31 And he said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord: Peradventure there shall be twenty found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for twenty's sake.32 And he said, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak yet but this once: Peradventure ten shall be found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for ten's sake.33 And the Lord went his way, as soon as he had left communing with Abraham: and Abraham returned unto his place.
Quote Verse 3 says, 3 Then he said: “Jehovah, if, now, I have found favor in your eyes, please do not pass by your servant Abraham does not call Him 'Jehovah' but 'Adonai' according to my interlinear.
Quote It doesn't seem to me that one of the “men” had authority over the others. It seems as if Abraham knew they were all messengers of Jehovah, and called them by the name Jehovah. Again, Abraham did not call them by the name 'Jehovah.'
Quote Now it is one of the two angels that said this last part. But look at the next verse, 18 Then Lot said to them: “Not that, please, Jehovah! No, Lot called them Adonai according to my interlinear, not Jehovah.
Quote So he is calling two angels Jehovah. The third one who you think is Jehovah the Son is not even present at th
is time. So what gives? The wording is definitely interesting, but I don't think it says the Jehovah God Almighty, or even his Son (who btw is not named Jehovah), was actually present in person. That would contradict the fact that no one can see God's face and live.So, therefore, according to my interlinear, neither Abraham nor Lot called anyone Jehovah. One was identified as Jehovah by Jehovah and the two angels but not by Abe or Lot.
You say that calling the Son 'Jehovah' would contradict the fact that no one can see God's face and live. Well, maybe it is only referring to the Most High God's face, and not God, the Son's face.
Quote But the reason I brought this passage up is 19:13, which says, 13 For we are bringing this place to ruin, because the outcry against them has grown loud before Jehovah, so that Jehovah sent us to bring the city to ruin.” Although the words “outstretched arm” are not there, the angels are indeed the tool that Jehovah uses to fulfill this particular purpose.
You are correct the words 'outstretched arm' are not there and cannot be used to indicate that the angels were an 'outstretched arm.' They, or men elsewhere in scriptures, may have been a 'tool' in the hand but that is not the same as being the hand or the outstretched arm.
Quote Again, I can't seem to link the words “outstretched arm” with something that was decidedly not done directly by Jesus, but I'm still looking. I'm tired, goodnight. Thanks for admitting that. I am tired too.
Goodnight!
Ed J,
I did answer his post. Read this in quotes.Quote (Ed J @ April 26 2010,16:07) Quote (Lightenup @ April 27 2010,04:54) Quote (Ed J @ April 26 2010,04:29) Quote (Lightenup @ April 26 2010,18:34) Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 26 2010,01:39) Quote (Lightenup @ April 26 2010,16:40) Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 26 2010,00:25) Hi LU,
You need these experts to tell you what the words mean?
What of the Spirit?
Nick,
I have known what this verse meant for a long time before I read these NET notes for the first time tonight. I was just trying to help you since you don't really seem to take my word for it, I thought that I would give you the experts view. Gee, even when I give you the experts view you have trouble with it. I can't please you one way or the other. If I give you my opinion you will say something like, “Why trust your opinions, why not follow the words of Christ” and then when I give you the experts opinion you say “You need these experts to tell you what the words mean? What of the Spirit?”It was the Spirit that showed me the same view as these NET translators, ok…satisfied? You can find it somewhere in the message board when I addressed Thinker about this very same verse.
My question to you is why didn't you know what this verse meant? If you did, you wouldn't have brought it up. What of the Spirit that you seek?
Hi LU,
Experts have led folk away from truth for 2000 years.
I have no wish to share their pit.
Nick,
Your ignorant comments never cease. You appear to me as if you are your own god. You have just judged those who are experts as all leaders away from the truth. No wonder we can't get anywhere with your logic. You are god and you make the rulings. One minute you rule one way and the next post you rule the opposite. Amazing!You don't tell us why they are wrong there in my post to you. Their fault seems to be that they are 'experts' according to you. Did you grow up in school saying to the teacher that you weren't going to listen to them because all teachers are stupid and are just going to lead everyone away from the truth? Give me a break!
Test all things and prove all things, that is what we are supposed to do. Do you think that you are just supposed to pick a comment out of the derogatory comment box and type away?
Hi LU,The Pharisees and the Sadducees were the experts in Jesus day, but what did Jesus say about them? (Matt.16:6)
The systems of religion and traditions of men communicate…distortions of truth, confusion of mind, and distractions of spirit.
Your ideas can be discussed, giving you an opportunity to see things differently, bring your 'experts' here NOT THEIR USELESS WORDS!
Edj,
I can't bring the translators of the NET Bible here. I don't always agree with their conclusions, but when I have sought God on a matter, I confirm it with wise counsel, so-called experts, and other perspectives. In this case, I agree with the NET Bible's translator notes. If you disagree, bring your proof.
Hi LU,Why don't you show what you disagree with that your experts say and why? Practice what you Preach!
Ed J,
I do say what I believe even when it disagrees with the experts. You will just have to read all my posts if you are so interested, in all the threads. Recently I was talking about when the Firstborn will again be brought into the world. Matthew Henry said that it would be at the time of judgement, and I disagreed and said that it would be at the time of Jesus' reign on earth during the millenium. No one realized that because I didn't spell out my thought process, I just said what I believed was right without bringing up MH's opinion. My post is about what I believe not about what the experts believe. I sometimes quote the experts to add support, not to speak for me.Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 26 2010,14:56) Hi LU,
We know you are convinced in your own mind about these matters.
Is that enough to hold up as truth before our awesome God?
What is truth-just a smorgasbord of opinions??
Nick,
Here are a few passages to help you…John 14:6
6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.
NASUJohn 16:13-15
13 “But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.
14 “He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you.
15 “All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said that He takes of Mine and will disclose it to you.
NASUProv 2:6-13
6 For the Lord gives wisdom; From His mouth come knowledge and understanding.
7 He stores up sound wisdom for the upright; He is a shield to those who walk in integrity,
8 Guarding the paths of justice, And He preserves the way of His godly ones.
9 Then you will discern righteousness and justice And equity and every good course.
10 For wisdom will enter your heart And knowledge will be pleasant to your soul;
11 Discretion will guard you, Understanding will watch over you,
12 To deliver you from the way of evil, From the man who speaks perverse things;
13 From those who leave the paths of uprightness To walk in the ways of darkness;
NASULU,
Why does Lot address angels as “Your Servant” (vrs 19)? Previously he had called the others to escape because “The LORD” was going destroy the place – so he clearly attributed the actions, not ot the angels, but to God.
Lot clearly understood who and who he was speaking to. Then later, who is it that it says “Rained down burning Sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah”?
Angels are like animated robots – massive in power only do as they are 'programmed' to do. If they were told to destroy the towns in teh area around S&G they could not 'decide' not to. It would have to be God talking through them that said “Ok, i'll allow you this one thing! but hurry because “I” can't destroy the place until you get to that other one (So even God, at times, takes time and space into consideration else why didn't He just “shield” Lot and his family?)”
The narrative continues with the actioner in the singlar person – “He”
LU, are you reading the same Scriptures as everyone else – this is amazing what you are saying?
Context, context, context….I might agree on “Adonia” as other renders says “Lords” – not sure how Scripture translators can differ so wildly:
“Not so my LORD (God)”
“Not so my Lords (One of Might – Kings, Judges, Men, angels and, even even animals, of majestic standards e.g. the Lion is the Lord, or king, of the Jungle)”(Before you say anything – read my post carefully. I didn't mention anything about abraham – so please don't accuse me on that point!)
Just Askin,
Are you reading the same scriptures as everyone else?you ask:
Quote Why does Lot address angels as “Your Servant” (vrs 19)? Where does Lot address angels as “Your Servant?. Lot is calling himself the servant to the angels. Lot realizes that they are from God.
I can't address the rest of your post till you show me where Lot addresses the angels as “Your Servant.”
Quote 12 And the men said unto Lot, Hast thou here any besides? son in law, and thy sons, and thy daughters, and whatsoever thou hast in the city, bring them out of this place:13 For we will destroy this place, because the cry of them is waxen great before the face of the Lord; and the Lord hath sent us to destroy it.14 And Lot went out, and spake unto his sons in law, which married his daughters, and said, Up, get you out of this place; for the Lord will destroy this city. But he seemed as one that mocked unto his sons in law.15 And when the morning arose, then the angels hastened Lot, saying, Arise, take thy wife, and thy two daughters, which are here; lest thou be consumed in the iniquity of the city.16 And while he lingered, the men laid hold upon his hand, and upon the hand of his wife, and upon the hand of his two daughters; the Lord being merciful unto him: and they brought him forth, and set him without the city.17 And it came to pass, when they had brought them forth abroad, that he said, Escape for thy life; look not behind thee, neither stay thou in all the plain; escape to the mountain, lest thou be consumed.18 And Lot said unto them, Oh, not so, my Lord:19 Behold now, thy servant hath found grace in thy sight, and thou hast magnified thy mercy, which thou hast shewed unto me in saving my life; and I cannot escape to the mountain, lest some evil take me, and I die:20 Behold now, this city is near to flee unto, and it is a little one: Oh, let me escape thither, (is it not a little one?) and my soul shall live.21 And he said unto him, See, I have accepted thee concerning this thing also, that I will not overthrow this city, for the which thou hast spoken.22 Haste thee, escape thither; for I cannot do any thing till thou be come thither. Therefore the name of the city was called Zoar.23 The sun was risen upon the earth when Lot entered into Zoar. Quote (Lightenup @ April 27 2010,08:20) Quote (Ed J @ April 26 2010,16:07) Quote (Lightenup @ April 27 2010,04:54) Quote (Ed J @ April 26 2010,04:29) Quote (Lightenup @ April 26 2010,18:34) Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 26 2010,01:39) Quote (Lightenup @ April 26 2010,16:40) Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 26 2010,00:25) Hi LU,
You need these experts to tell you what the words mean?
What of the Spirit?
Nick,
I have known what this verse meant for a long time before I read these NET notes for the first time tonight. I was just trying to help you since you don't really seem to take my word for it, I thought that I would give you the experts view. Gee, even when I give you the experts view you have trouble with it. I can't please you one way or the other. If I give you my opinion you will say something like, “Why trust your opinions, why not follow the words of Christ” and then when I give you the experts opinion you say “You need these experts to tell you what the words mean? What of the Spirit?”It was the Spirit that showed me the same view as these NET translators, ok…satisfied? You can find it somewhere in the message board when I addressed Thinker about this very same verse.
My question to you is why didn't you know what this verse meant? If you did, you wouldn't have brought it up. What of the Spirit that you seek?
Hi LU,
Experts have led folk away from truth for 2000 years.
I have no wish to share their pit.
Nick,
Your ignorant comments never cease. You appear to me as if you are your own god. You have just judged those who are experts as all leaders away from the truth. No wonder we can't get anywhere with your logic. You are god and you make the rulings. One minute you rule one way and the next post you rule the opposite. Amazing!You don't tell us why they are wrong there in my post to you. Their fault seems to be that they are 'experts' according to you. Did you grow up in school saying to the teacher that you weren't going to listen to them because all teachers are stupid and are just going to lead everyone away from the truth? Give me a break!
Test all things and prove all things, that is what we are supposed to do. Do you think that you are just supposed to pick a comment out of the derogatory comment box and type away?
Hi LU,The Pharisees and the Sadducees were the experts in Jesus day, but what did Jesus say about them? (Matt.16:6)
The systems of religion and traditions of men communicate…distortions of truth, confusion of mind, and distractions of spirit.
Your ideas can be discussed, giving you an opportunity to see things differently, bring your 'experts' here NOT THEIR USELESS WORDS!
Edj,
I can't bring the translators of the NET Bible here. I don't always agree with their conclusions, but when I have sought God on a matter, I confirm it with wise counsel, so-called experts, and other perspectives. In this case, I agree with the NET Bible's translator notes. If you disagree, bring your proof.
Hi LU,Why don't you show what you disagree with that your experts say and why? Practice what you Preach!
Ed J,
I do say what I believe even when it disagrees with the experts. You will just have to read all my posts if you are so interested, in all the threads. Recently I was talking about when the Firstborn will again be brought into the world. Matthew Henry said that it would be at the time of judgement, and I disagreed and said that it would be at the time of Jesus' reign on earth during the millenium. No one realized that because I didn't spell out my thought process, I just said what I believed was right without bringing up MH's opinion. My post is about what I believe not about what the experts believe. I sometimes quote the experts to add support, not to speak for me.
Hi Kathi,You seem to be missing my point…
You said (in essence) I should declare what I disagree with from your expert sources and why.
So I said: Why don't you declare what 'you' disagree from 'your expert sources' and why. Practice what you Preach.Why should I do something you are 'unwilling' to do? This is my point!
Quoting the 'so called experts' adds NO SUPPORT.
For LU.
Comments left unanswered…
Quote (Lightenup @ April 27 2010,08:12) Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 26 2010,01:07)
Hi Kathi,Verse 3 says, Then he said: “Jehovah, if, now, I have found favor in your eyes, please do not pass by your servant
It doesn't seem that Abraham singled one of the men out and said that, for verse 5 says, At this they said: “All right. You may do just as you have spoken.”
It doesn't seem to me that one of the “men” had authority over the others.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 26 2010,01:07)
But the reason I brought this passage up is 19:13, which says, 13 For we are bringing this place to ruin, because the outcry against them has grown loud before Jehovah, so that Jehovah sent us to bring the city to ruin.”God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Ed J @ April 26 2010,04:29) Quote (Lightenup @ April 26 2010,18:34) Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 26 2010,01:39) Quote (Lightenup @ April 26 2010,16:40) Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 26 2010,00:25) Hi LU,
You need these experts to tell you what the words mean?
What of the Spirit?
Nick,
I have known what this verse meant for a long time before I read these NET notes for the first time tonight. I was just trying to help you since you don't really seem to take my word for it, I thought that I would give you the experts view. Gee, even when I give you the experts view you have trouble with it. I can't please you one way or the other. If I give you my opinion you will say something like, “Why trust your opinions, why not follow the words of Christ” and then when I give you the experts opinion you say “You need these experts to tell you what the words mean? What of the Spirit?”It was the Spirit that showed me the same view as these NET translators, ok…satisfied? You can find it somewhere in the message board when I addressed Thinker about this very same verse.
My question to you is why didn't you know what this verse meant? If you did, you wouldn't have brought it up. What of the Spirit that you seek?
Hi LU,
Experts have led folk away from truth for 2000 years.
I have no wish to share their pit.
Nick,
Your ignorant comments never cease. You appear to me as if you are your own god. You have just judged those who are experts as all leaders away from the truth. No wonder we can't get anywhere with your logic. You are god and you make the rulings. One minute you rule one way and the next post you rule the opposite. Amazing!You don't tell us why they are wrong there in my post to you. Their fault seems to be that they are 'experts' according to you. Did you grow up in school saying to the teacher that you weren't going to listen to them because all teachers are stupid and are just going to lead everyone away from the truth? Give me a break!
Test all things and prove all things, that is what we are supposed to do. Do you think that you are just supposed to pick a comment out of the derogatory comment box and type away?
Hi LU,The Pharisees and the Sadducees were the experts in Jesus day, but what did Jesus say about them? (Matt.16:6)
The systems of religion and traditions of men communicate…distortions of truth, confusion of mind, and distractions of spirit.
Your ideas can be discussed, giving you an opportunity to see things differently, bring your 'experts' here NOT THEIR USELESS WORDS!
Ed J,
I do not get your line of thought. Maybe because you came into the middle of a conversation that I was having with Nick, that you are not making sense to me.My point was that if I believe a certain way and show that some experts agree but you disagree, then show me by scriptures that I might be wrong…not by assuming experts are always wrong. Experts are often right. Not always, but often. That is why they are experts.
Now you have a problem with that? And why is that?
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