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Quote (Ed J @ April 05 2010,16:53) Quote (Is 1:18 @ April 05 2010,14:53) Ed, so you affirm that the Father is calling the Son “LORD” (or what's generally accepted to mean YHWH) in Hebrews 1:10? That's how I read it. Is this correct? The writer quoted Ps 102:25-27 so shouldn't we be looking there, instead of Jer 1:11-12?
Hi Paul,No; Heb1:10 should have been put as LORD because it's referring to “JEHOVAH” rather than “Lord”(Jesus).
God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Hi Ed,
Yes, I agree it should be rendered or at least properly understood as LORD. The writer of Hebrews applied this passage from Psalms directly to Yeshua, Ed. According to the Herbrew's writer it's a Messianic passage where the Father addresses the Son as YHWH and Creator. So i'm not sure how the “rather than” comment you made applies.Quote (Is 1:18 @ April 05 2010,17:12) Quote (Ed J @ April 05 2010,16:53) Quote (Is 1:18 @ April 05 2010,14:53) Ed, so you affirm that the Father is calling the Son “LORD” (or what's generally accepted to mean YHWH) in Hebrews 1:10? That's how I read it. Is this correct? The writer quoted Ps 102:25-27 so shouldn't we be looking there, instead of Jer 1:11-12?
Hi Paul,No; Heb1:10 should have been put as LORD because it's referring to “JEHOVAH” rather than “Lord”(Jesus).
God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Hi Ed,
Yes, I agree it should be rendered or at least properly understood as LORD. The writer of Hebrews applied this passage from Psalms directly to Yeshua, Ed. According to the Herbrew's writer it's a Messianic passage where the Father addresses the Son as YHWH and Creator. So i'm not sure how the “rather than” comment you made applies.
Hi Paul,Hebrews 1:10-11 refers to “GOD The Father”; NOT to the messiah.
The systems of religion and traditions of men communicate except
distortions of truth, confusion of mind, and distractions of spirit.God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgEd, the writer of Hebrews does not concur with you.
So that's a tick in the “YHWH” box for Ed. Who's next up?
Quote (Is 1:18 @ April 05 2010,18:43) Ed, the writer of Hebrews does not concur with you. So that's a tick in the “YHWH” box for Ed. Who's next up?
Hi Paul,Someone who corrects should have his or her facts correct also.
Hebrew has No [W] sound, No [J] sound and the symbol ש is pronounced “Sh”.YHVH is God's Name transliterated into English; transliterated means sounds(phonics).
God's Name [יהוה] also translates directly into English as YHVH; because the Hebrew alphabet lacks vowel representations!GOD’s most sacred Holy Name [יהוה] was given to us directly from the Hebrew language.
Correctly translating Hebrew into other languages can be difficult however.
Some basic linguistical rules need to be considered when translating Hebrew texts.
These include a lack of spacing between words, as a general rule has no written vowels
and the basic direction in which Hebrew is written (opposite: from right to left).
Hebrew word spacing is a modern advent that distinguishes one word from the next,
aiding both translators and multi-linguists alike. Unwritten “implied” vowel sounds
are a concern because, correct pronunciations of Hebrew words are at risk.GOD’s Name (יהוה) transliterates directly into English as YHVH because the Hebrew alphabet
lacks vowels. Hebrew has No [W] sound, No [J] sound and the symbol ש is pronounced “Sh”.[יהוה] GOD’s Name [י] Yod [ה] Ha [ו] Vav [ה] Hey …is pronounced YÄ-hä-vā & [יה] YÄ
Theomatics(Numbers referring to God) offers proof of this FACT as a second witness(Matt.18:16)…The “Divine=63” “Deity=63” of “The Bible=63” is “YHVH=63”!
Witnessing to the world in behalf of… (Psalm 45:17)
יהוה האלהים(JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (AKJV Joshua 22:34 / Isaiah 60:13-15)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Is 1:18 @ April 05 2010,18:43) Ed, the writer of Hebrews does not concur with you.
Hi Isaiah 1:18,So you claim to know what the Apostle Paul intended?
Matt.7:1-5 Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge,
ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam
that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of
thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out
of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.Isaiah 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet,
they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.Though I think it's probable that Paul wrote Hebrews I couldn't say for certain. And neither can you….
Yes I can claim to know what the writer intended to convey by simply following the narrative. The overarching theme of the whole first chapter is the absolute sepremacy of the Son.
Hebrews 1
1God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, 2in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. 3And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4having become as much better than the angels, as He has inherited a more excellent name than they. 5For to which of the angels did He ever say, “YOU ARE MY SON, TODAY I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU”? And again, ” I WILL BE A FATHER TO HIM AND HE SHALL BE A SON TO ME”? 6And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says, “AND LET ALL THE ANGELS OF GOD WORSHIP HIM.” 7And of the angels He says,” WHO MAKES HIS ANGELS WINDS, AND HIS MINISTERS A FLAME OF FIRE.” 8But of the Son He says, “YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER, AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM. 9″ YOU HAVE LOVED RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HATED LAWLESSNESS; THEREFORE GOD, YOUR GOD, HAS ANOINTED YOU WITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE YOUR COMPANIONS.” 10And, “YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH, AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS; 11THEY WILL PERISH, BUT YOU REMAIN;AND THEY ALL WILL BECOME OLD LIKE A GARMENT, 12AND LIKE A MANTLE YOU WILL ROLL THEM UP;LIKE A GARMENT THEY WILL ALSO BE CHANGED BUT YOU ARE THE SAME,AND YOUR YEARS WILL NOT COME TO AN END.” 13But to which of the angels has He ever said, “SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND, UNTIL I MAKE YOUR ENEMIES A FOOTSTOOL FOR YOUR FEET”? 14Are they not all ministering spirits, sent out to render service for the sake of those who will inherit salvation?He is LORD.
Quote (Is 1:18 @ April 05 2010,17:12) Hi Ed,
Yes, I agree it should be rendered or at least properly understood as LORD. The writer of Hebrews applied this passage from Psalms directly to Yeshua,
Hi Paul,יהשוע ה משיח YÄ-shü-ă hä Mäh-shē-äkh
Paul’s Greek-written manuscripts have the Hebrew name [יהשוע] YÄ-shü-ă translated into Greek as [Ιησους] Ē-Ā-Soos.
Note the similarity in pronunciation and Theomatic values for both Ē-Ā-Soos=74 and Jesus=74. While Theomatics keeps
mathematical connections in English, it tells nothing of GOD’s name [הי] YÄ being linguistically distanced further and further
from His Word by re-transcribing a previous translation. Specifically, instead of transcribing the authentic Hebrew Name (יהשוע),
the King James linguistics instead transcribed the Greek name for Jesus (Ιησους); which is unauthentic because it is a
“translation of a translation”. [יהשוע] translates directly into “English” as [Joshua=74] YÄ-shü-ă.The Hebrew word [ישוע] Yəsh-yü-ă merely means ‘He will save’. Distancing [יה]’s salvation from the man Jesus
is a rejection of YÄ-shoe-ă=74 as Messiah=74. This subtle distinction of [ישוע] Yəsh-yü-ă purposely substituted
for [יהשוע] YÄ-shü-ă usually goes unnoticed when heard by a non Hebrew-speaking person; nevertheless, this
wholly implies a specific denial of Jesus as Lord and Savior. Jesus being found in fashion as a man, humbled himself,
and became obedient unto death, even His death on the cross [†]. (Phil. 2:8) Along with Jesus, either the phrase
| יהשוע הנצרי מלך היהוםדי | or the acronym of it was posted on a plaque and nailed to the Cross=74.
This Hebrew inscription means|YÄ shü ă of Nazareth the king of the Jews|. YÄ-shü-ă means:
“YÄ will save” because “YÄ is YHVH”=117 and “YHVH is GOD”=117. Which means: GOD the Father
is both Christ’s Savior (Gal. 1:1) and ours. (1Cor. 6:14) “GOD the Father”=117 “is” “The Savior”=117.God bless,
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Is 1:18 @ April 05 2010,19:14) Though I think it's probable that Paul wrote Hebrews I couldn't say for certain. And neither can you…. Yes I can claim to know what the writer intended to convey by simply following the narrative. The overarching theme of the whole first chapter is the absolute sepremacy of the Son.
Hebrews 1
1God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, 2in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. 3And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4having become as much better than the angels, as He has inherited a more excellent name than they. 5For to which of the angels did He ever say, “YOU ARE MY SON, TODAY I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU”? And again, ” I WILL BE A FATHER TO HIM AND HE SHALL BE A SON TO ME”? 6And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says, “AND LET ALL THE ANGELS OF GOD WORSHIP HIM.” 7And of the angels He says,” WHO MAKES HIS ANGELS WINDS, AND HIS MINISTERS A FLAME OF FIRE.” 8But of the Son He says, “YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER, AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM. 9″ YOU HAVE LOVED RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HATED LAWLESSNESS; THEREFORE GOD, YOUR GOD, HAS ANOINTED YOU WITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE YOUR COMPANIONS.” 10And, “YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH, AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS; 11THEY WILL PERISH, BUT YOU REMAIN;AND THEY ALL WILL BECOME OLD LIKE A GARMENT, 12AND LIKE A MANTLE YOU WILL ROLL THEM UP;LIKE A GARMENT THEY WILL ALSO BE CHANGED BUT YOU ARE THE SAME,AND YOUR YEARS WILL NOT COME TO AN END.” 13But to which of the angels has He ever said, “SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND, UNTIL I MAKE YOUR ENEMIES A FOOTSTOOL FOR YOUR FEET”? 14Are they not all ministering spirits, sent out to render service for the sake of those who will inherit salvation?He is LORD.
Hi Paul,Who's narrative? (Rev.18:3-4)
The systems of religion and traditions of men communicate…
distortions of truth, confusion of mind, and distractions of spirit.Witnessing to the world in behalf of… (Psalm 45:17)
יהוה האלהים(JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (AKJV Joshua 22:34 / Isaiah 60:13-15)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgI was referring to Chapter 1 vss 1-10. I've put you in the “the Father was addressing the Son as YHVH category” and I'm interested in reading what others have to say about this verse. Thanks for your input Ed.
Quote (Is 1:18 @ April 05 2010,19:30) I was referring to Chapter 1 vss 1-10. I've put you in the “the Father was addressing the Son as YHVH category” and I'm interested in reading what others have to say about this verse. Thanks for your input Ed.
Hi Paul,I think 'your' confusion is coming from not knowing where Hebrews 1:8 originates…
Psalm 45:2 refers to [יהשוע] YÄ-shü-ă, which is the “Object”,
while Psalm 45:6 refers to the “Subject” [יהוה] YÄ-hä-vā!Psalm 45:6-7 Thy throne, O God(יהוה), is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre.
(7)Thou(יהשוע) lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God(יהוה), thy God(יהוה),
hath anointed thee(משיח Mäh-shē-äkh) with the oil of gladness above thy fellows(Brothers).
Perhaps this will help remove 'your' confusion? Religious traditions are 'hard' to give up!“YHVH is GOD”=117
PSALM 117 is [The Bible's Center Chapter], the [smallest chapter] of the [LARGEST BOOK]!Witnessing to the world in behalf of… (Psalm 45:17)
117=יהוה האלהים(JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (AKJV Joshua 22:34 / Isaiah 60:13-15)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgThanks for your concern but i'm not confused. I've got your answer now Ed so I'm more interested in the thoughts some of the others have on Hebrews 1:10 than following your rabbit trails.
Quote (Is 1:18 @ April 05 2010,19:30) I was referring to Chapter 1 vss 1-10. I've put you in the “the Father was addressing the Son as YHVH category”
Hi Paul,The Father was “Not” addressing the son (as you say) as YHVH.
Ed J
Quote (Ed J @ April 05 2010,14:45) Lord in Hebrews 1:10 should have been LORD, because it is referring to [יהוה] YÄ-hä-vā NOT [יהשוע] YÄ-shü-ă.
These are your words Ed.Quote (Ed J @ April 05 2010,16:54) Psalm 102:24-28 I said, O my God(JEHOVAH), take me not away in the midst of my days: thy(YHVH) years are throughout all generations.
Of old hast thou(YHVH) laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the work of thy hands. They shall perish, but thou shalt endure:
yea, all of them shall wax old like a garment; as a vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed: But thou art the same,
and thy years shall have no end. The children of thy servants shall continue, and their seed shall be established before thee.God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
…and this….Quote (Is 1:18 @ April 05 2010,20:28) Quote (Ed J @ April 05 2010,14:45) Lord in Hebrews 1:10 should have been LORD, because it is referring to [יהוה] YÄ-hä-vā NOT [יהשוע] YÄ-shü-ă.
These are your words Ed.
Hi Paul,Then why do you say it's talking about Jesus there?
Hebrews 1:10 And, Thou, LORD(יהוה), in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
Ed J
Let's drill down into this a bit….
Hebrews 1
1God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, 2in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. 3And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4having become as much better than the angels, as He has inherited a more excellent name than they. 5For to which of the angels did He ever say, “YOU ARE MY SON, TODAY I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU”? And again, ” I WILL BE A FATHER TO HIM AND HE SHALL BE A SON TO ME”? 6And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says, “AND LET ALL THE ANGELS OF GOD WORSHIP HIM.” 7And of the angels He says,” WHO MAKES HIS ANGELS WINDS, AND HIS MINISTERS A FLAME OF FIRE.” 8But of the Son He says, “YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER, AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM. 9″ YOU HAVE LOVED RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HATED LAWLESSNESS; THEREFORE GOD, YOUR GOD, HAS ANOINTED YOU WITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE YOUR COMPANIONS.” 10And, “YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH, AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS; 11THEY WILL PERISH, BUT YOU REMAIN;AND THEY ALL WILL BECOME OLD LIKE A GARMENT, 12AND LIKE A MANTLE YOU WILL ROLL THEM UP;LIKE A GARMENT THEY WILL ALSO BE CHANGED BUT YOU ARE THE SAME,AND YOUR YEARS WILL NOT COME TO AN END.” 13But to which of the angels has He ever said, “SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND, UNTIL I MAKE YOUR ENEMIES A FOOTSTOOL FOR YOUR FEET”? 14Are they not all ministering spirits, sent out to render service for the sake of those who will inherit salvation?When the writer of Hebrews wrote “but of the Son He says” (v8), who specifically was he referring to? Who is the “He” and who is the “Son”?
Quote (Is 1:18 @ April 05 2010,14:11) Right now that i've answered the questions asked of me in this thread it's time for me to ask one of my own…. In Hebrews 1:10 the Father addresses the Son as “Lord”. In what sense is the Son “Lord” to the Father?
Any takers?
…to this question, I mean.Quote (Is 1:18 @ April 05 2010,20:33) Let's drill down into this a bit…. Hebrews 1
1God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, 2in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. 3And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4having become as much better than the angels, as He has inherited a more excellent name than they. 5For to which of the angels did He ever say, “YOU ARE MY SON, TODAY I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU”? And again, ” I WILL BE A FATHER TO HIM AND HE SHALL BE A SON TO ME”? 6And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says, “AND LET ALL THE ANGELS OF GOD WORSHIP HIM.” 7And of the angels He says,” WHO MAKES HIS ANGELS WINDS, AND HIS MINISTERS A FLAME OF FIRE.” 8But of the Son He says, “YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER, AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM. 9″ YOU HAVE LOVED RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HATED LAWLESSNESS; THEREFORE GOD, YOUR GOD, HAS ANOINTED YOU WITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE YOUR COMPANIONS.” 10And, “YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH, AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS; 11THEY WILL PERISH, BUT YOU REMAIN;AND THEY ALL WILL BECOME OLD LIKE A GARMENT, 12AND LIKE A MANTLE YOU WILL ROLL THEM UP;LIKE A GARMENT THEY WILL ALSO BE CHANGED BUT YOU ARE THE SAME,AND YOUR YEARS WILL NOT COME TO AN END.” 13But to which of the angels has He ever said, “SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND, UNTIL I MAKE YOUR ENEMIES A FOOTSTOOL FOR YOUR FEET”? 14Are they not all ministering spirits, sent out to render service for the sake of those who will inherit salvation?When the writer of Hebrews wrote “but of the Son He says” (v8), who specifically was he referring to? Who is the “He” and who is the “Son”?
Hi Paul,Hebrews 1:8 But unto the Son(יהשוע) he(HolySpirit) saith, Thy throne, O God(יהוה),
is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.Does this help you to understand Hebrews 1:1-11?
God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
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