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Hi Is 1.18,
Jn 1017
To take up
” 2983Transliteration:
lambano {lam-ban'-o}
Word Origin:
a prolonged form of a primary verb, which is use only as an alternate in certain tenses
TDNT:
4:5,495
Part of Speech:
verb
Usage in the KJV:
receive 133, take 106, have 3, catch 3, not tr 1, misc 17Total: 263
Definition:
to take
to take with the hand, lay hold of, any person or thing in order to use it
to take up a thing to be carried
to take upon one's self
to take in order to carry away
without the notion of violence, i,e to remove, take away
to take what is one's own, to take to one's self, to make one's own
to claim, procure, for one's self
to associate with one's self as companion, attendant
of that which when taken is not let go, to seize, to lay hold of, apprehend
to take by craft (our catch, used of hunters, fisherman, etc.), to circumvent one by fraud
to take to one's self, lay hold upon, take possession of, i.e. to appropriate to one's self
catch at, reach after, strive to obtain
to take a thing due, to collect, gather (tribute)
to take
to admit, receive
to receive what is offered
not to refuse or reject
to receive a person, give him access to one's self,
to regard any one's power, rank, external circumstances, and on that account to do some injustice or neglect something
to take, to choose, select
to take beginning, to prove anything, to make a trial of, to experience
to receive (what is given), to gain, get, obtain, to get back For Synonyms see entry 5877Does not sound like resurrection to me.
Certain laws of logic are used by everyone, including those who claim to reject the use of logic.
Paul was well trained in Aristotelian logic and used it a lot in His epistles. Do you hold this against him?
Jesus used logic. In fact He was undoubtedly the best exponent of logical argumentation using scripture, in His antagonistic dealings with the Phasisees and Sadducees. Do you hold this against Him?
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 13 2007,01:51) Hi Is 1.18,
Jn 1017
To take up
” 2983Transliteration:
lambano {lam-ban'-o}
Word Origin:
a prolonged form of a primary verb, which is use only as an alternate in certain tenses
TDNT:
4:5,495
Part of Speech:
verb
Usage in the KJV:
receive 133, take 106, have 3, catch 3, not tr 1, misc 17Total: 263
Definition:
to take
to take with the hand, lay hold of, any person or thing in order to use it
to take up a thing to be carried
to take upon one's self
to take in order to carry away
without the notion of violence, i,e to remove, take away
to take what is one's own, to take to one's self, to make one's own
to claim, procure, for one's self
to associate with one's self as companion, attendant
of that which when taken is not let go, to seize, to lay hold of, apprehend
to take by craft (our catch, used of hunters, fisherman, etc.), to circumvent one by fraud
to take to one's self, lay hold upon, take possession of, i.e. to appropriate to one's self
catch at, reach after, strive to obtain
to take a thing due, to collect, gather (tribute)
to take
to admit, receive
to receive what is offered
not to refuse or reject
to receive a person, give him access to one's self,
to regard any one's power, rank, external circumstances, and on that account to do some injustice or neglect something
to take, to choose, select
to take beginning, to prove anything, to make a trial of, to experience
to receive (what is given), to gain, get, obtain, to get back For Synonyms see entry 5877Does not sound like resurrection to me.
I don't see how this post refutes what I wrote, at all. He “layed down” His life (does this, or does this not, refer to his death?) and then “took it up again” (does this, or does this not, refer to His resurrection?)Common sense.
Hi Is 1.18,
He did not kill himself when he laid down his life.
Neither did he raise Himself when he took it up again.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 13 2007,02:04) Hi Is 1.18,
Aa things can teach us, if they align with the truth of Scripture.
The truth according to Nick?Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 13 2007,02:06) Hi Is 1.18,
He did not kill himself when he laid down his life.
Neither did he raise Himself when he took it up again.
Well this most definately does not “align with the truth of Scripture”Hi Is 1.18,
How many scriptures can you find that say the Father raised Jesus?
How do you reconcile this if Jesus is not the Father?Hi,
That framework is not biblical to where do you go from there?
Jesus told us the Father spoke through him so that would be my view.But your view doesn't go any way to explaining John 2:18-20, John 10:17-18, Matthew 26:61, Matthew 27:40, Mark 14:58 and Mark 15:29….
Quote (Is 1:18 @ Jan. 13 2007,00:12) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 13 2007,00:02) Hi Is 1.18,
If God really died then God could not be raised.
According to scripture Yahshua did raise Himself from the dead.John 2:18-20
18 The Jews then said to Him, “What sign do You show us as your authority for doing these things?”
19 Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.”
20 The Jews then said, “It took forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?”
21 But He was speaking of the temple of His body.
22 So when He was raised from the dead, His disciples remembered that He said this; and they believed the Scripture and the word which Jesus had spoken.John 10:17-18
17 “For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I may take it again.
18 ” No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again This commandment I received from My Father.”A claim that was remember and repeated by others:
Matthew 26:61
and said, “This man stated, 'I am able to destroy the temple of God and to rebuild it in three days.'”Matthew 27:40
and saying, “You who are going to destroy the temple and rebuild it in three days, save Yourself! If You are the Son of God, come down from the cross.”Mark 14:58
“We heard Him say, 'I will destroy this temple made with hands, and in three days I will build another made without hands.'”Mark 15:29
Those passing by were hurling abuse at Him, wagging their heads, and saying, “Ha! You who are going to destroy the temple and rebuild it in three days,He followed through on this claim.
Hi Isaiah 1:18:These statements by Jesus relative to raising himself from the dead are not easy to understand because we know that He was dead, and so, I understand these statements to be based on the fact that He knew that the life of perfect obedience to the God would justify his resurrection from the dead, and so, through the spirit of holiness he had the authority to raise himself from the dead. When Jesus died, Luke 23 states that Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, “Father into thy hands I commend my spirit”: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost. Romans 1:4 states about Jesus: “And (he was) declared to the the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:”.
All of the following scriptures show that God raised him from the dead:
Acts 2:32, Acts 4:10, Acts 5:30, Romans 4:24,8:11, 8:34, 10:9, 2 Co. 4:14, Ga 1:1, 1 Th 1:10
God Bless
Quote (Is 1:18 @ Jan. 13 2007,02:38) But your view doesn't go any way to explaining John 2:18-20, John 10:17-18, Matthew 26:61, Matthew 27:40, Mark 14:58 and Mark 15:29….
Hi Is 1.18,
How many of those verse are quotes of Jn 2.19 made by the false witnesses testifying against Jesus? 3Quote (942767 @ Jan. 13 2007,02:53) Quote (Is 1:18 @ Jan. 13 2007,00:12) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 13 2007,00:02) Hi Is 1.18,
If God really died then God could not be raised.
According to scripture Yahshua did raise Himself from the dead.John 2:18-20
18 The Jews then said to Him, “What sign do You show us as your authority for doing these things?”
19 Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.”
20 The Jews then said, “It took forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?”
21 But He was speaking of the temple of His body.
22 So when He was raised from the dead, His disciples remembered that He said this; and they believed the Scripture and the word which Jesus had spoken.John 10:17-18
17 “For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I may take it again.
18 ” No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again This commandment I received from My Father.”A claim that was remember and repeated by others:
Matthew 26:61
and said, “This man stated, 'I am able to destroy the temple of God and to rebuild it in three days.'”Matthew 27:40
and saying, “You who are going to destroy the temple and rebuild it in three days, save Yourself! If You are the Son of God, come down from the cross.”Mark 14:58
“We heard Him say, 'I will destroy this temple made with hands, and in three days I will build another made without hands.'”Mark 15:29
Those passing by were hurling abuse at Him, wagging their heads, and saying, “Ha! You who are going to destroy the temple and rebuild it in three days,He followed through on this claim.
Hi Isaiah 1:18:These statements by Jesus relative to raising himself from the dead are not easy to understand because we know that He was dead, and so, I understand these statements to be based on the fact that He knew that the life of perfect obedience to the God would justify his resurrection from the dead, and so, through the spirit of holiness he had the authority to raise himself from the dead. When Jesus died, Luke 23 states that Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, “Father into thy hands I commend my spirit”: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost. Romans 1:4 states about Jesus: “And (he was) declared to the the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:”.
All of the following scriptures show that God raised him from the dead:
Acts 2:32, Acts 4:10, Acts 5:30, Romans 4:24,8:11, 8:34, 10:9, 2 Co. 4:14, Ga 1:1, 1 Th 1:10
God Bless
Hello six digit number,
I'm not sure that this would explain away the explicit claims that Yahshua uttered. He said, in very unambiguous language (first person, singular), that he would raise the “destroyed temple”, and that He had the authority to do it.John 2:18-20
18 The Jews then said to Him, “What sign do You show us as your authority for doing these things?”
19 Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.”John 10:17-18
17 “For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I may take it again.
18 ” No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again This commandment I received from My Father.”Thanks for the input though.
Can someone please comment on this post?
ALPHA AND OMEGA–Who does this title belong to?
REVELATION 1:11
Certain scholars hold that Rev 1:11 is spurious. The additional occurrence of this phrase (Alpha and Omega) in the King James rendering of Revelation 1:11, does not receive support from some of the oldest Greek manuscripts, including the Alexandrine, Sinaitic, and Codex Ephraemi rescriptus. It is, therefore, omitted in many modern translations. It does not appear in Revised Standard, New English, Jerusalem Bible, New American Bible, Challenor-Douay Version, etc.Revelation 21:6, 7 indicates that Christians who are spiritual conquerors are to be ‘sons’ of the one known as the Alpha and the Omega. That is never said of the relationship of spirit-anointed Christians to Jesus Christ. Jesus spoke of them as his ‘brothers.’ (Heb. 2:11; Matt. 12:50; 25:40) But those ‘brothers’ of Jesus are referred to as “sons of God.” (Gal. 3:26; 4:6)
So this would contradict the rest of the Bible, if it was taken that Jesus was the alpha and omega of Rev 1:11.Again, this indicates that the alpha and omega spoken of are God Almighty, not Jesus.
THE BOOK OF REVELATION
When looking at this symbolic book, it's important to remember that a number of different ones are involved. GOD gave the revelation to JESUS who used his angel (messenger) to present it in signs to JOHN.
Sometimes, John himself is speaking. Sometimes, Jesus. Sometimes God.
They all seem to introduce themselves at the beginning or mention is made of them all.
If it's not made clear who is speaking, I would think it is better to consult the rest of scripture.We must remember this point: The first verse of Revelation shows that the revelation was given originally by God and through Jesus Christ, hence the one speaking (through an angelic representative) at times is God himself, and at other times it is Christ Jesus. (Re 22:8)
WHO IS THE ALMIGHTY IN THE BIBLE?
Thus Revelation 1:8 (RS) says: “‘I am the Alpha and the Omega,’ says the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.” Although the preceding verse speaks of Christ Jesus, it is clear that in verse 8 the application of the title is to “the Almighty” God.About 42 other times in the Bible the title “Almighty” is used with reference to the Father, God. It is nowhere else used with reference to Jesus! This is a strong indication that this verse is speaking of the Father. Think about that: 42 other times, the word “Almighty” is used in connection with the Father, Jehovah God. And then we have this verse, we are told that the Alpha and Omega is also the “Almighty” and “God.” We know that different ones speak in this book. There is really no way to conclude anything other than this: Jehovah God is the Alpha and Omega referred to here.
In this regard Barnes’ Notes on the New Testament (1974) observes: “It cannot be absolutely certain that the writer meant to refer to the Lord Jesus specifically here . . . There is no real incongruity in supposing, also, that the writer here meant to refer to God as such.”
And in view of the rest of the Bible, that must in fact, be the case.
REVELATION 21:6
The title occurs again at Revelation 21:6, and the following verse identifies the speaker by saying: “Anyone conquering will inherit these things, and I shall be his God and he will be my son.” Inasmuch as Jesus referred to those who are joint heirs with him in his Kingdom as “brothers,” not “sons,” the speaker must be Jesus’ heavenly Father, Jehovah God.—Mt 25:40; compare Heb 2:10-12.REVELATION 22:12 (TODAY’S ENGLISH VERSION)
It's clear that some Bibles want this to be Jesus. At Revelation 22:12, TEV inserts the name Jesus, so the reference to Alpha and Omega in verse 13 is made to appear to apply to him. But the name Jesus does not appear there in Greek, and other translations do not include it.REVELATION 22:13
The final occurrence of the title is at Revelation 22:13, which states: “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.” It is evident that a number of persons are represented as speaking in this chapter of Revelation.
–Verses 8 and 9 show that the angel spoke to John,
–verse 16 obviously applies to Jesus,
–the first part of verse 17 is credited to “the spirit and the bride,”
–and the one speaking in the latter part of verse 20 is manifestly John himself.
“The Alpha and the Omega” of verses 12-15, therefore, may properly be identified as the same one who bears the title in the other two occurrences: Jehovah God.
As I said before:
“The expression, “Look! I am coming quickly,” in verse 12, does not require that these aforementioned verses apply to Jesus, inasmuch as God also speaks of himself as “coming” to execute judgment. (Compare Isa 26:21.) Malachi 3:1-6 speaks of a joint coming for judgment on the part of Jehovah and his “messenger of the covenant.””At Revelation 22:13, the Alpha and Omega is also said to be “the first and the last,” which expression is applied to Jesus at Revelation 1:17, 18. Similarly, the expression “apostle” is applied both to Jesus Christ and to certain ones of his followers. But that does not prove that they are the same person, does it? (Heb. 3:1)
The title “the Alpha and the Omega” carries the same thought as “the first and the last” and “the beginning and the end” when these terms are used with reference to Jehovah. Before him there was no Almighty God, and there will be none after him. He will bring to a successful conclusion the issue over Godship, forever vindicated as the one and only Almighty God.
ISAIAH 44:6
““This is what Jehovah has said, the King of Israel and the Repurchaser of him, Jehovah of armies, ‘I am the first and I am the last, and besides me there is no God.”Quote (Is 1:18 @ Jan. 13 2007,00:08) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 13 2007,00:01) Hi Is 1.18,
God has other spirit being sons shown in Jb 1, 2,38 and gen6.
Does your reasoning prove they are God?
My point is it would be hard to make a sound good case for the two designations “Son of God” and “God” being exclusively antithetical when “Son of” often means 'of the nature of' or 'of the order of' in the Hebrew context.
I think that the reaction of the Jews to Yahshua calling Himself the “Son of God” (e.g. Jn.19:7 cf. Jn.10:33 & 36) adds weight to this. If they took the title to be a reference to a supernatural procreative event that happaned “in the beginning” this would not offend them, it would amuse them. It would be tantamount to Jesus calling himself a boiled egg, so far removed from their framework of understanding YHWH would it be. But they would be grossly offended by the hebraic “nature of” connotation intrinsic to the title “Son of ….”. So it's clear from these exchanges that to the jewish mind there “Son of God” means 'nature of' God….BTW, I don't hold that Yahshua is the Son of God is just one exclusive sense. It's abundantly obvious that there is a genuine Father/Son relationship between them. Yahshua calls the Father “My Father” and the Father addresses Yahshua as “My Son”. But when was the begettal? That's the BIG question. I am firmly of the belief that the sonship is linked to the earthly existence of Yahshua (Luke 1:35, Hebrews 1:5) and the resurrection (Acts 13:33, Romans 1:4) somehow. I also find no evidence that would support a pre-incarnation birth.
Quote (david @ Jan. 13 2007,03:29) Can someone please comment on this post? ALPHA AND OMEGA–Who does this title belong to?
REVELATION 1:11
Certain scholars hold that Rev 1:11 is spurious. The additional occurrence of this phrase (Alpha and Omega) in the King James rendering of Revelation 1:11, does not receive support from some of the oldest Greek manuscripts, including the Alexandrine, Sinaitic, and Codex Ephraemi rescriptus. It is, therefore, omitted in many modern translations. It does not appear in Revised Standard, New English, Jerusalem Bible, New American Bible, Challenor-Douay Version, etc.Revelation 21:6, 7 indicates that Christians who are spiritual conquerors are to be ‘sons’ of the one known as the Alpha and the Omega. That is never said of the relationship of spirit-anointed Christians to Jesus Christ. Jesus spoke of them as his ‘brothers.’ (Heb. 2:11; Matt. 12:50; 25:40) But those ‘brothers’ of Jesus are referred to as “sons of God.” (Gal. 3:26; 4:6)
So this would contradict the rest of the Bible, if it was taken that Jesus was the alpha and omega of Rev 1:11.Again, this indicates that the alpha and omega spoken of are God Almighty, not Jesus.
THE BOOK OF REVELATION
When looking at this symbolic book, it's important to remember that a number of different ones are involved. GOD gave the revelation to JESUS who used his angel (messenger) to present it in signs to JOHN.
Sometimes, John himself is speaking. Sometimes, Jesus. Sometimes God.
They all seem to introduce themselves at the beginning or mention is made of them all.
If it's not made clear who is speaking, I would think it is better to consult the rest of scripture.We must remember this point: The first verse of Revelation shows that the revelation was given originally by God and through Jesus Christ, hence the one speaking (through an angelic representative) at times is God himself, and at other times it is Christ Jesus. (Re 22:8)
WHO IS THE ALMIGHTY IN THE BIBLE?
Thus Revelation 1:8 (RS) says: “‘I am the Alpha and the Omega,’ says the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.” Although the preceding verse speaks of Christ Jesus, it is clear that in verse 8 the application of the title is to “the Almighty” God.About 42 other times in the Bible the title “Almighty” is used with reference to the Father, God. It is nowhere else used with reference to Jesus! This is a strong indication that this verse is speaking of the Father. Think about that: 42 other times, the word “Almighty” is used in connection with the Father, Jehovah God. And then we have this verse, we are told that the Alpha and Omega is also the “Almighty” and “God.” We know that different ones speak in this book. There is really no way to conclude anything other than this: Jehovah God is the Alpha and Omega referred to here.
In this regard Barnes’ Notes on the New Testament (1974) observes: “It cannot be absolutely certain that the writer meant to refer to the Lord Jesus specifically here . . . There is no real incongruity in supposing, also, that the writer here meant to refer to God as such.”
And in view of the rest of the Bible, that must in fact, be the case.
REVELATION 21:6
The title occurs again at Revelation 21:6, and the following verse identifies the speaker by saying: “Anyone conquering will inherit these things, and I shall be his God and he will be my son.” Inasmuch as Jesus referred to those who are joint heirs with him in his Kingdom as “brothers,” not “sons,” the speaker must be Jesus’ heavenly Father, Jehovah God.—Mt 25:40; compare Heb 2:10-12.REVELATION 22:12 (TODAY’S ENGLISH VERSION)
It's clear that some Bibles want this to be Jesus. At Revelation 22:12, TEV inserts the name Jesus, so the reference to Alpha and Omega in verse 13 is made to appear to apply to him. But the name Jesus does not appear there in Greek, and other translations do not include it.REVELATION 22:13
The final occurrence of the title is at Revelation 22:13, which states: “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.” It is evident that a number of persons are represented as speaking in this chapter of Revelation.
–Verses 8 and 9 show that the angel spoke to John,
–verse 16 obviously applies to Jesus,
–the first part of verse 17 is credited to “the spirit and the bride,”
–and the one speaking in the latter part of verse 20 is manifestly John himself.
“The Alpha and the Omega” of verses 12-15, therefore, may properly be identified as the same one who bears the title in the other two occurrences: Jehovah God.
As I said before:
“The expression, “Look! I am coming quickly,” in verse 12, does not require that these aforementioned verses apply to Jesus, inasmuch as God also speaks of himself as “coming” to execute judgment. (Compare Isa 26:21.) Malachi 3:1-6 speaks of a joint coming for judgment on the part of Jehovah and his “messenger of the covenant.””At Revelation 22:13, the Alpha and Omega is also said to be “the first and the last,” which expression is applied to Jesus at Revelation 1:17, 18. Similarly, the expression “apostle” is applied both to Jesus Christ and to certain ones of his followers. But that does not prove that they are the same person, does it? (Heb. 3:1)
The title “the Alpha and the Omega” carries the same thought as “the first and the last” and “the beginning and the end” when these terms are used with reference to Jehovah. Before him there was no Almighty God, and there will be none after him. He will bring to a successful conclusion the issue over Godship, forever vindicated as the one and only Almighty God.
ISAIAH 44:6
““This is what Jehovah has said, the King of Israel and the Repurchaser of him, Jehovah of armies, ‘I am the first and I am the last, and besides me there is no God.”
David, did you write this post? If the answer is yes, then so is mine. If the answer is no, then shame on you for being so deceptive by claiming (by ommision of a reference) that it's your own work.Blatant plagerism is not tolerated in other TMBs, why does this one have such a loose policy on cheats?
Hi Is 1.18,
The jews accused Jesus of blasphemy and wanted to kill him because he said he was
“the Son of God”,
not because he said he had the nature of God,
because he did not say that.So your greek logic and jewish traditional source has failed to prove anything here.
They misconstrued what the Father said through him in prophecy in Jn 2.19 and quoted it against him also at his trial as evidence also that in saying this he was saying he was God, not just of the nature of God.
Of course the rest is history, the Father raised him by the Spirit and this fact is trumpeted through scripture.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 13 2007,03:56) Hi Is 1.18,
The jews accused Jesus of blasphemy and wanted to kill him because he said he was
“the Son of God”,
not because he said he had the nature of God,
because he did not say that.So your greek logic and jewish traditional source has failed to prove anything here.
They misconstrued what the Father said through him in prophecy in Jn 2.19 and quoted it against him also at his trial as evidence also that in saying this he was saying he was God, not just of the nature of God.
Of course the rest is history, the Father raised him by the Spirit and this fact is trumpeted through scripture.
When Yahshua named James and John the “Sons of thunder” (Mk 3:17) was is because they were the reproductive product of the meterological phenomenon or was it because they had that nature? In John 17:12 Judas is described as the “son of perdition”, does this mean that perdition was his literal Father? There is a theme here….Also, does not Hebrews 1:3 tell us emphatically that Yahshua had the nature of God – “The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of His being…”.
Put one and one together….
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