Alpha Omega First Last

[Morning Star]

Quote (Is 1:18 @ Jan. 12 2007,23:40)

Hmmmm….is it impossible for YHWH to take on flesh, live amongst His creation and suffer the first death? Is this something that YHWH is incapable of doing IYO?

Yes it is impossible:

Not because of limiting the “power” of God

but, because it goes against his “holy” nature

the reason we are seperated from God is sin

because God does not dwell with sin

the solution to God not being present with sin is not to give him all the sins of the world.

It is his son and mediator who did this.

Reconciling us to God.

[Is 1:18]

Quote (t8 @ Jan. 12 2007,23:48)

John 20:30-31. 30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “ I concur with this reason. But others come up with “Jesus Christ is God”. I believe John's reason/conclusion for his own book.

I also concur with John's statement in John 20:31, as do all trinitarians I have come across.

Are the designations “God” and “Son of God” antithetical?

Hmmm….

I'll answer with another couple of questions….

Is Yahshua both “man” and the “Son of man”? And if so, does the fact that He is the Son of man disprove that he is man?

[NickHassan]

Hi Is 1.18,
God has other spirit being sons shown in Jb 1, 2,38 and gen6.
Does your reasoning prove they are God?

[Is 1:18]

Quote (Morning Star @ Jan. 12 2007,23:53)

Quote (Is 1:18 @ Jan. 12 2007,23:40) Hmmmm….is it impossible for YHWH to take on flesh, live amongst His creation and suffer the first death? Is this something that YHWH is incapable of doing IYO? Yes it is impossible: Not because of limiting the “power” of God but, because it goes against his “holy” nature the reason we are seperated from God is sin because God does not dwell with sin the solution to God not being present with sin is not to give him all the sins of the world. It is his son and mediator who did this. Reconciling us to God.

Scripture please. And can I ask that the verse you cite are specific to my inferred premise.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Morning Star @ Jan. 13 2007,18:53)

Quote (Is 1:18 @ Jan. 12 2007,23:40) Hmmmm….is it impossible for YHWH to take on flesh, live amongst His creation and suffer the first death? Is this something that YHWH is incapable of doing IYO? Yes it is impossible: Not because of limiting the “power” of God but, because it goes against his “holy” nature the reason we are seperated from God is sin because God does not dwell with sin the solution to God not being present with sin is not to give him all the sins of the world. It is his son and mediator who did this. Reconciling us to God.

Amen Morning Star.

It is great to meet someone who appears to be able to see and hear.

[NickHassan]

Hi Is 1.18,
If God really died then God could not be raised.

[Is 1:18]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 13 2007,00:01)

Hi Is 1.18, God has other spirit being sons shown in Jb 1, 2,38 and gen6. Does your reasoning prove they are God?

These are part of creation. They would fall into the “all things” category in Col 1:16. Do you agree?

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Is 1:18 @ Jan. 13 2007,18:59)

Quote (t8 @ Jan. 12 2007,23:48) John 20:30-31. 30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “ I concur with this reason. But others come up with “Jesus Christ is God”. I believe John's reason/conclusion for his own book. I also concur with John's statement in John 20:31, as do all trinitarians I have come across. Are the designations “God” and “Son of God” antithetical? Hmmm…. I'll answer with another couple of questions…. Is Yahshua both “man” and the “Son of man”? And if so, does the fact that He is the Son of man disprove that he is man?

The point is that the Word and God are spoken of in identity and then the last word God is spoken as a quality.

But Trinitarians who argue against us, quote John 1:1c as if it is saying The Logos is Yahweh.

The point is that we both know that the Father is Yahweh.

So reasoning that both interpretations are saying that Jesus us Yahweh is incorrect.

After all we will partake of divine nature which is qualitive and we will never be the Divine in identity.

But as I mentioned before if you want to argue that the Logos is Yahweh, then it would be better to take it to a discussion that focusses on this.

[Is 1:18]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 13 2007,00:01)

Hi Is 1.18, God has other spirit being sons shown in Jb 1, 2,38 and gen6. Does your reasoning prove they are God?

My point is it would be hard to make a sound good case for the two designations “Son of God” and “God” being exclusively antithetical when “Son of” often means 'of the nature of' or 'of the order of' in the Hebrew context.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 13 2007,19:02)

Hi Is 1.18, If God really died then God could not be raised.

Who would want to see God die more than his enemy.

Yet some Christians promote a doctrine that says that God died.

Pretty sad and unbelievable, but yet it happens to this day.

[Is 1:18]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 13 2007,00:02)

Hi Is 1.18, If God really died then God could not be raised.

According to scripture Yahshua did raise Himself from the dead.

John 2:18-20
18 The Jews then said to Him, “What sign do You show us as your authority for doing these things?”
19 Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.”
20 The Jews then said, “It took forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?”
21 But He was speaking of the temple of His body.
22 So when He was raised from the dead, His disciples remembered that He said this; and they believed the Scripture and the word which Jesus had spoken.

John 10:17-18
17 “For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I may take it again.
18 ” No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again This commandment I received from My Father.”

A claim that was remember and repeated by others:

Matthew 26:61
and said, “This man stated, 'I am able to destroy the temple of God and to rebuild it in three days.'”

Matthew 27:40
and saying, “You who are going to destroy the temple and rebuild it in three days, save Yourself! If You are the Son of God, come down from the cross.”

Mark 14:58
“We heard Him say, 'I will destroy this temple made with hands, and in three days I will build another made without hands.'”

Mark 15:29
Those passing by were hurling abuse at Him, wagging their heads, and saying, “Ha! You who are going to destroy the temple and rebuild it in three days,

He followed through on this claim.

[Is 1:18]

Quote (t8 @ Jan. 13 2007,00:10)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 13 2007,19:02) Hi Is 1.18, If God really died then God could not be raised. Who would want to see God die more than his enemy. Yet some Christians promote a doctrine that says that God died. Pretty sad and unbelievable, but yet it happens to this day.

Polytheism is sadder still….

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Is 1:18 @ Jan. 13 2007,18:59)

Quote (t8 @ Jan. 12 2007,23:48) John 20:30-31. 30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “ I concur with this reason. But others come up with “Jesus Christ is God”. I believe John's reason/conclusion for his own book. I also concur with John's statement in John 20:31, as do all trinitarians I have come across. Are the designations “God” and “Son of God” antithetical? Hmmm…. I'll answer with another couple of questions…. Is Yahshua both “man” and the “Son of man”? And if so, does the fact that He is the Son of man disprove that he is man?

That's not what I have seen.

Myself, Nick, and others have been teaching that Jesus is the son of God, the messiah, and came to earth as a man, for years now.

You and others have been teaching that Jesus is God. You are not promoting that Jesus Christ is the messiah and the son of God, or the image of God. You just admit that it is true now and then in the midst of the main thrust of your doctrine which is Jesus Christ is God.

You teach falsely and inject truth here and there to make an appearance of truth.

Those who are in the light can detect this sort of thing quite easily. So called mysteries and creeds do not baffle us. We see them for what they are.

[Proclaimer]

To Is 1:18.

Quote (Is 1:18 @ Jan. 13 2007,19:14)

Quote (t8 @ Jan. 13 2007,00:10) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 13 2007,19:02) Hi Is 1.18, If God really died then God could not be raised. Who would want to see God die more than his enemy. Yet some Christians promote a doctrine that says that God died. Pretty sad and unbelievable, but yet it happens to this day. Polytheism is sadder still….

Yes Polytheism is sad.

Three is 3 not 1.

The above example shows one being. But 3 identities. But God is one. Not one substance but one identity.

That is why God is referred to as a HE, or HIM.

If you were addressing 2 identities moulded together at birth (Siamese Twins), would you refer to them as HIM/HER or as THEM?

The answer is THEM because you don't address the (one) substance but the mind/identities.

When you talk to someone are you talking to a hunk of flesh (substance), or to the mind/identity?

Therefore if God has 3 identities then why is he referred to as a HE?

If you really believe the Trinity Doctrine, then call your god THEM. Otherwise refer to HIM when addressing the son or the Father, but God (who you say is all 3) should be addressed as THEM if you take your own doctrine seriously enough.

[NickHassan]

Quote (Is 1:18 @ Jan. 13 2007,00:12)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 13 2007,00:02) Hi Is 1.18, If God really died then God could not be raised. According to scripture Yahshua did raise Himself from the dead. John 2:18-20 18 The Jews then said to Him, “What sign do You show us as your authority for doing these things?” 19 Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.” 20 The Jews then said, “It took forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?” 21 But He was speaking of the temple of His body. 22 So when He was raised from the dead, His disciples remembered that He said this; and they believed the Scripture and the word which Jesus had spoken. John 10:17-18 17 “For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I may take it again. 18 ” No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again This commandment I received from My Father.” A claim that was remember and repeated by others: Matthew 26:61 and said, “This man stated, 'I am able to destroy the temple of God and to rebuild it in three days.'” Matthew 27:40 and saying, “You who are going to destroy the temple and rebuild it in three days, save Yourself! If You are the Son of God, come down from the cross.” Mark 14:58 “We heard Him say, 'I will destroy this temple made with hands, and in three days I will build another made without hands.'” Mark 15:29 Those passing by were hurling abuse at Him, wagging their heads, and saying, “Ha! You who are going to destroy the temple and rebuild it in three days, He followed through on this claim.

Hi Is 1.18,
So Christ was dead and unable to raise himself so he could not be not the God who raised him.

[Is 1:18]

John 10:17-18
17 “For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I may take it again. 18 ” No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again This commandment I received from My Father.”

Did He have this authority or not?

[Is 1:18]

Quote (t8 @ Jan. 13 2007,00:19)

To Is 1:18. Quote (Is 1:18 @ Jan. 13 2007,19:14) Quote (t8 @ Jan. 13 2007,00:10) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 13 2007,19:02) Hi Is 1.18, If God really died then God could not be raised. Who would want to see God die more than his enemy. Yet some Christians promote a doctrine that says that God died. Pretty sad and unbelievable, but yet it happens to this day. Polytheism is sadder still…. Yes Polytheism is sad. Three is 3 not 1. The above example shows one being. But 3 identities. But God is one. Not one substance but one identity. That is why God is referred to as a HE, or HIM. If you were addressing 2 identities moulded together at birth (Siamese Twins), would you refer to them as HIM/HER or as THEM? The answer is THEM because you don't address the (one) substance but the mind/identities. When you talk to someone are you talking to a hunk of flesh (substance), or to the mind/identity? Therefore if God has 3 identities then why is he referred to as a HE? If you really believe the Trinity Doctrine, then call your god THEM. Otherwise refer to HIM when addressing the son or the Father, but God (who you say is all 3) should be addressed as THEM if you take your own doctrine seriously enough.

Polytheism is essentially defined as believing in more than one divine being…..I believe there is only one divine being in existence.

What about you?

[Is 1:18]

Quote (Is 1:18 @ Jan. 13 2007,00:03)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 13 2007,00:01) Hi Is 1.18, God has other spirit being sons shown in Jb 1, 2,38 and gen6. Does your reasoning prove they are God? These are part of creation. They would fall into the “all things” category in Col 1:16. Do you agree?

Still waiting for an answer to this question too….

[NickHassan]

Quote (Is 1:18 @ Jan. 13 2007,01:18)

John 10:17-18 17 “For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I may take it again. 18 ” No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again This commandment I received from My Father.” Did He have this authority or not?

Hi Is 1.18,
Do you think “take it up” means ” raise myself”?
I do not think it does.
He resumed life in the Spirit of God having really died and committed his own spirit back to God.
Stephen died too and committed his spirit back to Christ with God.

[Is 1:18]

John 10:17-18
17 “For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I may take it again. 18 ” No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again This commandment I received from My Father.”

I do believe when He said that He would “take it up” (in reference to His LIFE), He was speaking about raising Himself, Yes. Common sense would tell us this.

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