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Quote (Cult Buster @ Jan. 10 2007,12:59) This proves beyond doubt that the Son of man (Jesus) is the LORD thy God. Jer 23:5-6 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch (Jesus), and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD (Yhovah)OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.[/b]
Your right CB,But not in the way you think. You are implying since it says Yhovah that means the Most High.
but:
John 17:6
6″I have manifested Your name to the men whom You gave Me out of the world; they were Yours and You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word.John 17:11
11″I am no longer in the world; and yet they themselves are in the world, and I come to You Holy Father, keep them in Your name, the name which You have given Me, that they may be one even as We are.Philippians 2:9
9(A)For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name,WJ
Sorry brother I just don't see it that way. You said:
He is the beginning of all of creation because by him all things were made.
“He is the beginning of all creation” Sure Jesus was the first created I believe that would make Him the beginning of all creation.
The definition of Start is BEGIN. To commence. To come into being.
“because by Him all things were created” Sure Jehovah used the word to create. Again He is the end because all things are in Christ.
Does the Father have a beginning? Does the Father have an end? Jesus is the beginning and the end ~of what?~. He is the beginning of all creation and the end of all creation BECAUSE ALL ARE IN CHRIST.
Please pray about this. The traditions of men will be shown to be just what it is ~ a false teaching~ Mark 7:7.
Oxy was given a prophecy in it was “not to be bound by tridition”. I know that there are times when I miss what the Holy Spirit tries to tell me and the Holy spirit will use someone who is more on my level so I will understand. Sometimes it takes awhile because of “pride” but in the end the “TRUTH” wins ~always~ sooner or latter.
Most “Christians” trust their clergy with their salvation! They are soooooooo lazy that they don't test their fleshly teacher.
All denominations are lies covered with truth. The word of God is truth!
Jesus said HE is the beginning of the creation of God! It's that simple! As I said when we come out of her we become as children not swayed by every wind of doctrine with all the triditions of men.You love your neighbour as yourself you do well.
Quote WJ Sorry brother I just don't see it that way. You said:
He is the beginning of all of creation because by him all things were made.
“He is the beginning of all creation” Sure Jesus was the first created I believe that would make Him the beginning of all creation.
The definition of Start is BEGIN. To commence. To come into being.
“because by Him all things were created” Sure Jehovah used the word to create. Again He is the end because all things are in Christ.
Does the Father have a beginning? Does the Father have an end? Jesus is the beginning and the end ~of what?~. He is the beginning of all creation and the end of all creation BECAUSE ALL ARE IN CHRIST.
Please pray about this. The traditions of men will be shown to be just what it is ~ a false teaching~ Mark 7:7.
Oxy was given a prophecy in it was “not to be bound by tridition”. I know that there are times when I miss what the Holy Spirit tries to tell me and the Holy spirit will use someone who is more on my level so I will understand. Sometimes it takes awhile because of “pride” but in the end the “TRUTH” wins ~always~ sooner or latter.
Most “Christians” trust their clergy with their salvation! They are soooooooo lazy that they don't test their fleshly teacher.
All denominations are lies covered with truth. The word of God is truth!
Jesus said HE is the beginning of the creation of God! It's that simple! As I said when we come out of her we become as children not swayed by every wind of doctrine with all the triditions of men.You love your neighbour as yourself you do well.
kenrch
No offence. But first of all I resent the implication that I follow a mans teaching on this.
I have studied and prayed over the scriptures for 33 years, and have the anointing in me the Holy Spirit that teaches me.
Its seems that everytime a new teaching comes along everybody is ready to throw the old out because the new must be a revelation from God.
Not saying that is the case here, but I see this a lot!
Anyway, if you go into the greek and and do a close study of the word “beginning” you will see the overwelming evidence that it does not mean that Jesus the Co-Creator with God and the Holy Spirit who created **ALL** things, was at anytime crreated.
Further more your premise that he is the beginning of the creation of God meaning he was created is wrong. Heres why.
If by this he is the “Beginning and the End” of creation, so he has a begining, then he also must have and end.
This is a poor Christology!
Jn 1:3
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.This scripture contains two direct statements that tell us that it was the preexistent Jesus who created all things.
“All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.”
Notice that John is not content to say only that all things were made through Him, but John adds the fact that “without Him **nothing was made**.”
The Apostle Paul confirms exactly what John wrote:
“For by Him all things were created.”
Paul goes on to make sure that we understand what he means by all things.
Col 1:16
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: **ALL things were created by him, and for him**:
Since Jesus created all things, He could not have been one of the “created things.” Paul then adds, so there can be no mistake,“He is before all things, and in him all things hold together” (verse 17, NIV).
In view of the clear teaching that Christ is Creator and not a creature, the Arian misinterpretations of phrases like Christ is 'firstborn' (Colossians 1:15) or 'beginning of creation' (Revelation 3:14) are wrong.
Christ is 'firstborn' in the sense of being the unique (not created) Son of God. Christ is first over creation, not first in it”.
Micah 5:2
But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, [though] thou be little among the thousands of Judah, [yet] out of thee shall he come forth unto me [that is] to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth [have been] from of old, from everlasting.Jesus had appeared in His divine life before His human birth as the priest-king Melchizedek.
Heb 7:
1 For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him;
2 To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace;
3 Without father, without mother, without descent, **having neither beginning of days, nor end of life**; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.The Apostle John speaks of Jesus the Word that was made flesh as being the Eternal Life that was with the Father!
I Jn:
1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that **eternal life*, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)
The word for 'Eternal' is aionios, which means;
1) without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be
2) without beginning
3) without end, never to cease, everlasting
Jesus the Word had no beginning nor shall he have an end!
Hi W,
You say
“Its seems that everytime a new teaching comes along everybody is ready to throw the old out because the new must be a revelation from God.”You have accepted the NEW TEACHING of trinity
and thrown out the OLD TESTAMENT which teaches
GOD IS ONE.- God is one.
- There is one God the Father
- God has a son.
- The son is the Christ of God.
- Jesus is the Christ.
- Christ is the Word who became flesh
- Jesus Christ is the Word of God.
- Jesus Christ is the Truth
- Jesus Christ is the Life
- Jesus Christ is wisdom from God.
- Jesus Christ is the power of God.
But he isn't God himself.
Rather he is the image of God, the firstborn of all creation.No one is forcing anyone to believe this.
It is up to each individual whether they embrace these truths or not.
Not accepting these truths is allowed.
God has given us free will.
Quote God is one. There is one God the Father
God has a son.
The son is the Christ of God.
Jesus is the Christ.
Christ is the Word who became flesh
Jesus Christ is the Word of God.
Jesus Christ is the Truth
Jesus Christ is the Life
Jesus Christ is wisdom from God.
Jesus Christ is the power of God.
But he isn't God himself.
Rather he is the image of God, the firstborn of all creation.No one is forcing anyone to believe this.
It is up to each individual whether they embrace these truths or not.
Not accepting these truths is allowed.
God has given us free will.
t8
No one is saying he is the Father.
But you left something out.
THE WORD WAS/IS GOD?
You dont have to believe it either, you do have free will. But dont set on a high horse and say that you preach THE TRUTH, and that every one else is pigs, when there is plenty of scriptures that plainly show that Jesus is God, One with the Father and the Spirit!
The Word was/is God!
I John 5:20
And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life
Quote Hi W,
You say
“Its seems that everytime a new teaching comes along everybody is ready to throw the old out because the new must be a revelation from God.”You have accepted the NEW TEACHING of trinity
and thrown out the OLD TESTAMENT which teaches
GOD IS ONE.No NH!
You are the one throwing out scriptures!
Look at these and apply them to your doctine.
Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily
Phi 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus
Phi 2:6 Who being in the form of God thought it not robbery to be equal with GodRom 9:5 Whose are the fathers and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came who is over all God blessed for ever Amen
Tit 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ
1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness God was manifest in the flesh
1Jo 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding that we may know him that is true and we are in him that is true even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.
Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega (Jesus speaking), the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,..Mic 5:2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.
Heb 7:16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.
This is only a few. I could go on but I think you get the point!
All that Jesus has came from God.
Jesus is not God in that he is the source.
The source is the Father. Jesus is the image.
It goes without saying that a Father is the source of the son. Some argue that the son is in fact not OF God but is ACTUALLY God.
But such an error is exposed in scripture.
John 16:27 (English-NIV)
No, the Father himself loves you because you have loved me and have believed that I came from God.1 Corinthians 8:6
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.Let scripture speak and the doctrines of men be silent.
Jesus came from God and God is the Father. It is written.
To WorshippingJesus.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 13 2007,16:53) t8 No one is saying he is the Father.
But you left something out.
THE WORD WAS/IS GOD?
You dont have to believe it either, you do have free will. But dont set on a high horse and say that you preach THE TRUTH, and that every one else is pigs, when there is plenty of scriptures that plainly show that Jesus is God, One with the Father and the Spirit!
The Word was/is God!
I John 5:20
And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life
Again you read it wrong.I am not saying that you are saying that Jesus is the Father, I am saying that there is one God the Father and one Lord Jesus Christ.
You say that there is one God the Father, Son, Spirit.
But it is written that there is one God the Father and one Lord the Lord Jesus Christ.
That is what I/we are saying.
Comprehendo?
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 13 2007,16:53) But you left something out. THE WORD WAS/IS GOD?
You misuse this verse to back up your doctrine.Scripture doesn't contradict.
There is one God the Father as it is written.
The Word was logos is also written.
It is not saying that Jesus is God himself.
Even Trinitarian scholars admit as much.
Those who interpret it to say that Jesus is God have got it wrong. If it was, it would be saying that Jesus is God (even to the exclusion of the Father).
E.g., George Bush is the President means that no one else is the president when the statement is made.
If you want to argue this point, I would suggest doing it in a discussion that specifically covers this.
Quote (t8 @ Jan. 12 2007,22:29) You misuse this verse to back up your doctrine. Scripture doesn't contradict.
There is one God the Father as it is written.
The Word was logos is also written.
It is not saying that Jesus is God himself.
Even Trinitarian scholars admit as much.
Not true. The trinitarian scholars fall into two camps.1. Some adhere to a 'definite' rendering of the predicate noun in the third clause of John 1:1. They affirm that the Word was God in identity. But they soundly understand a modalistic concept was not being taught by John, as the noun is anarthrous (articleless). Two personages describes as “God” is quite consistent with the 'plurality within unity' concept.
2. The rest adhere to a 'qualitative' rendering, i.e. the Logos had all the qualities and attributes that make God God. But they do this fully understanding (and demonstrably affrim) that only “God” (YHWH) could be attributed this kind of description…i.e. .“And the Word was as to His essence absolute deity.” (Kenneth S. Wuest, 1961)
So either way the Word is STILL God
Quote Again you read it wrong. I am not saying that you are saying that Jesus is the Father, I am saying that there is one God the Father and one Lord Jesus Christ.
You say that there is one God the Father, Son, Spirit.
But it is written that there is one God the Father and one Lord the Lord Jesus Christ.
That is what I/we are saying.
Comprehendo?
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 13 2007,16:53)
But you left something out.THE WORD WAS/IS GOD?
You misuse this verse to back up your doctrine.
Scripture doesn't contradict.
There is one God the Father as it is written.
The Word was logos is also written.
It is not saying that Jesus is God himself.
Even Trinitarian scholars admit as much.
Those who interpret it to say that Jesus is God have got it wrong. If it was, it would be saying that Jesus is God (even to the exclusion of the Father).
E.g., George Bush is the President means that no one else is the president when the statement is made.
If you want to argue this point, I would suggest doing it in a discussion that specifically covers this.
t8
You are right, scripture dosnt contradict.
Then Explain…
Jn 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.If the Word was with God and was God, then it means God the Word was with God.
So What is your interpretation? Now it looks like to me that you and others are saying that the Word/God basically ceased to be. So God had a God with him in the beginning but now he dosnt?
What do you do with this? And other scriptures as you full well know say Jesus is God!
So if you take all of scripture, then the trinitarian view is the truest to the scriptures.
Your favorite scripture…
I Cor 8:6
But to us [there is but] one God, the Father, of whom [are] all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom [are] all things, and we by him.This is no contradiction to the trinitarian view.
For there is One God..
The Father, of whom [are] all things
and
The Son, by whom [are] all things, and we by him.[/B]Paul almost always mentions the Son with the Father so there would be no confusion about the Godhead. That the Father and the Son were seperate and yet one!
John did this in John 1:1 so that men would not confuse the Word/God as being the Father.
And as far as the Spirit.
II Cor 3:17
Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.It dosnt get any plainer than that!
And so it goes on.
Hmmmm….is it impossible for YHWH to take on flesh, live amongst His creation and suffer the first death?
Is this something that YHWH is incapable of doing IYO?
God of God
Yet only one Most High.
That explains it:
a) more accurate to literal scripture.
b) agrees with early christian writings.
c) doesn't create a God with multiple personality disorderQuote (Morning Star @ Jan. 12 2007,23:42) God of God Yet only one Most High.
That explains it:
a) more accurate to literal scripture.
b) agrees with early christian writings.
c) doesn't create a God with multiple personality disorder
Who is assigned the title “Most High” in Daniel 7 Morningstar?Quote (Is 1:18 @ Jan. 13 2007,18:20) Quote (t8 @ Jan. 12 2007,22:29) You misuse this verse to back up your doctrine. Scripture doesn't contradict.
There is one God the Father as it is written.
The Word was logos is also written.
It is not saying that Jesus is God himself.
Even Trinitarian scholars admit as much.
Not true. The trinitarian scholars fall into two camps.1. Some adhere to a 'definite' rendering of the predicate noun in the third clause of John 1:1. They affirm that the Word was God in identity. But they soundly understand a modalistic concept was not being taught by John, as the noun is anarthrous (articleless). Two personages describes as “God” is quite consistent with the 'plurality within unity' concept.
2. The rest adhere to a 'qualitative' rendering, i.e. the Logos had all the qualities and attributes that make God God. But they do this fully understanding (and affriming) that only “God” could be attributed this kind of description…i.e. .“And the Word was as to His essence absolute deity.” (Kenneth S. Wuest, 1961)
So either way the Word is STILL God
True.There are some that do not admit it. I left the word “some” out.
The ones that do, know that it is talking about a quality. This is not incorrect.
Therefore John 1:1 doesn't contradict scriptures that clearly say “there is one God the Father” and “The only true God who sent the son”.
Conclusion: John 1:1 doesn't teach the Trinity. The book of John is written not so that men will believe in a Trinity, but for this reason:
John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “I concur with this reason. But others come up with “Jesus Christ is God”.
I believe John's reason/conclusion for his own book.
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