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Hi boh,
Does it not seem a little odd that a God, Who is not of confusion but peace, has never taught this very important “truth” through His Son or the prophets and apostles but left it to theologians to piece together implications and inferences that convince them of it?I am obliged to abide in the Word and this teaching is not there. Thus we do not have to accept it. Thus it should be regarded as an arrogant attempt by men to encompass our fearsome God with their pathetic measures. It also should be treated warily as being likely to be of falsehood and abhorred if we are to be faithful to the Master.
Quote (Becauce of Him @ Jan. 31 2007,17:20) That the point the word bible is not in the bible. But you believe in it.
To Becauce of Him.But that is the point too.
The bible was compiled by man. Inspired by God, but it was men that put certain books together as one book and left others out.That is why the word 'bible' isn't in the bible.
Similarly the word 'Trinity' isn't in the bible because that too is a work of man.
Can anyone explain to me how the statment of alpha and omega in Revelation or first and last in any way proves the trinity?
Because I've been studying this topic, which Is 1:18 said was in his opinion one of the “strongest” proofs of the trinity. I found it highly odd that he said that, because this is incredibly week proof of anything like that.
Anyone?
Quote (david @ Feb. 02 2007,08:01) Can anyone explain to me how the statment of alpha and omega in Revelation or first and last in any way proves the trinity? Because I've been studying this topic, which Is 1:18 said was in his opinion one of the “strongest” proofs of the trinity. I found it highly odd that he said that, because this is incredibly week proof of anything like that.
Anyone?
Hmmm….did I claim that? I don't think I did.Quote please David.
Hi,
If anyone can confuse the Father and the Son on this matter then that does not give any support to a proposed trinity theory of the nature of God. It might if you could also produce scriptures saying the same thing about the so called third person in God, His own Spirit. Confusion of itself is no basis for the development of any doctrine.God is the alpha omega beginning and end
CREATING ALL….. THE lORD OF HOSTS
Gen 1:29 ¶ And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which [is] upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which [is] the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
God creates the hosts of heaven and earth
Gen 2:1 ¶ Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
Gen 2:2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
Gen 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
Gen 2:4 ¶ These [are] the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,Isa 37:16 O LORD of hosts, God of Israel, that dwellest [between] the cherubims, thou [art] the God, [even] thou alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth: thou hast made heaven and earth.
Isa 37:17 Incline thine ear, O LORD, and hear; open thine eyes, O LORD, and see: and hear all the words of Sennacherib, which hath sent to reproach the living God.
Isa 37:18 Of a truth, LORD, the kings of Assyria have laid waste all the nations, and their countries,
Isa 37:19 And have cast their gods into the fire: for they [were] no gods, but the work of men's hands, wood and stone: therefore they have destroyed them.
Isa 37:20 Now therefore, O LORD our God, save us from his hand, that all the kingdoms of the earth may know that thou [art] the LORD, [even] thou only.Heavenly host being made perfect; with the author christ
Psa 80:14 Return, we beseech thee, O God of hosts: look down from heaven, and behold, and visit this vine;
1Cr 14:33 For God is not [the author] of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
Hbr 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
Hbr 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of [our] faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.He is the root of David a bright morning star created in the beginning; FIGHTS THE EARTHLY BATTLE
God enterers his rest, Michael the arch angel fights the battle FROM HEAVEN
Isa 35:3 ¶ Strengthen ye the weak hands, and confirm the feeble knees.
Isa 35:4 Say to them [that are] of a fearful heart, Be strong, fear not: behold, your God will come [with] vengeance, [even] God [with] a recompence; he will come and save you.
Isa 35:5 Then the eyes of the blind shall be opened, and the ears of the deaf shall be unstopped.Day of the Lord God
Isa 13:6 Howl ye; for the day of the LORD [is] at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.Isa 41:4 Who hath wrought and done [it], calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I [am] he.
His son’s life and soul made a sacrifice…
Zep 1:7 Hold thy peace at the presence of the Lord GOD: for the day of the LORD [is] at hand: for the LORD hath prepared a sacrifice, he hath bid his guests.Zep 1:4 I will also stretch out mine hand upon Judah, and upon all the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and I will cut off the remnant of Baal from this place, [and] the name of the Chemarims with the priests;
selah Zep 1:5 And them that worship the host of heaven upon the housetops; and them that worship [and] that swear by the LORD, and that swear by Malcham;
Zep 1:6 And them that are turned back from the LORD; and [those] that have not sought the LORD, nor enquired for him.Rev 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
Rev 1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send [it] unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.Joe 3:14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD [is] near in the valley of decision.
Amo 5:18 Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end [is] it for you? the day of the LORD [is] darkness, and not light.Quote Hmmm….did I claim that? I don't think I did. Quote please David.
On page 540 of trinity thread, Is 1:18 stated:
“The 'First and Last', 'Alpha and Omega' verses are the strongest possible proof that Yahshua claimed to be God (YHWH), as this is a title that YHWH exclusively reserves for Himself. “
So I said that you said that in your opinion, this was one of the strongest possible proofs of the trinity. More precisely, what you said was that this is the “strongest possible proof that Yahshua claimed to be God (YHWH)” And Yahshua being Yahweh or not is a prime component of the trinity belief.
david.
(I also quoted this quote on page 32 of this thread.)Actually, Is 1:18, I had quoted you as saying that these scriptures are “ONE of the strongest proofs.”
But you actually said that they are “THE strongest possible proof.”That is quite a statement.
Since your prime goal on this site appears to me to be to prove the trinity doctrine true, I would think you'd spend more time discussing what you believe is the strongest possible proof.
There's very little written on this thread. I would like to discuss this “proof.”
Hi david,
Since it centres on Revelation, which is a book from God through the hands of many -Christ, angel, John,-who all speak there then there will always be opinions as to whom said what.I know. I was just struck when Is 1:18 who so strongly supports the trinity doctine said that this was some of the strongest proof.
Yet, as you mention, there are so many speaking, and names often aren't included, so I would love for Is 1:18 to explain how this is in any way considered proof, much less, some of the strongest proof.
ALPHA AND OMEGA
THE BOOK OF REVELATION
REVELATION 1:1-2
“A revelation by Jesus Christ, which God gave him, to show his slaves the things that must shortly take place. And he sent forth his angel and presented [it] in signs through him to his slave John, who bore witness to the word God gave and to the witness Jesus Christ gave, even to all the things he saw.”As a side observation, this revelation was presented in signs and is given to show God’s “slaves” and not the world in general, the things that must take place. Much like Jesus illustrations, unreceptive hearts would not get the meaning, or have understanding. (Mat 13:10-15)
When looking at this symbolic book, we should remember this:
Revelation 1:1 explains that the revelation was given by GOD through JESUS CHRIST, and therefore the one speaking, through an ANGELIC REPRESENTATIVE at times is God himself, and at other times it’s Jesus Christ. And sometimes JOHN himself is speaking.
Hence, it is reasonable to expect the words of Jehovah God the Almighty to be quoted in the account, along with Jesus’ words, and John’s (and even the angel’s words, who transmitted the message.)
And in my opinion, they all seem to introduce themselves at the beginning or introductory words are mentioned in connection with them, and they all are mentioned at the closing of Revelation.REVELATION 1:8
“The Lord God says, ‘I am the Alpha and the Omega, the One who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty!’” (The New American Bible)
While Jesus Christ is referred to in the previous verse as “coming with the clouds,” the words of Revelation 1:8 indicate that it is “the Lord God,” “the Almighty” who is speaking. In the Scriptures, only the Father of the Lord Jesus Christ is spoken of as “the Lord God” and as the “Almighty.”
Burden of proof: If we have a phrase or a title that is over and over again, repeatedly applied specifically to a certain one and we don’t find this word used in connection with anyone else by name, and we come across another instance of that word or phrase where it is uncertain who is being spoken of, it would have to be proved that this case is different from the majority and not the other way around.
“ALMIGHTY”:
Shaddai (Heb. “Almighty”) and Pantokrator (Gk. “Almighty”) are repeatedly used with reference to Jehovah, the Father. (Ex 6:3; 2 Cor 6:18; Rev 19:6, Rev 4:8, etc) Neither of these expressions are ever applied to “Jesus” or “Christ.” Yet, the word “almighty” is applied to Jehovah 42 other times, from the very first occurrence of that word to the very last occurrence:
GENESIS 17:1
“When Abram got to be ninety-nine years old, then Jehovah appeared to Abram and said to him: “I am God Almighty. Walk before me and prove yourself faultless.”
REVELATION 21:22 (King James Version)
“And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty AND Lamb ARE the temple of it.” (It’s clear in this verse that the Lamb, [Jesus] is distinguished and separate from the “Almighty” here. Both of them “are” spoken of. It does not say that the Almighty and Jesus “is,” but uses the plural: “are.”)
Since “Jehovah” is specifically and without question called “God” a thousand times in scripture, and many more without the actual use of his name, the “burden of proof” clearly rests on anyone who wants to prove that the words “God Almighty” refers to anyone but Jehovah.
(See the “*” in the section below entitled: “Can two different beings be called the same thing or be explained with the same words?”)
“LORD GOD”:
The expression “Lord God” occurs in many Bibles roughly 80 times. It never occurs with reference to the name “Jesus.” In fact, in the original languages, the expression found about 80 times is “Jehovah [or “Yahweh”] God.” The substitution of the word “Lord” and the removal of God’s name without question has confused many as to who this one is. The words “Lord God” never occur with reference to “Jesus,” although it does occur about 80 times with reference to Jesus’ Father, Jehovah.
Since the words “Lord God” are definitely used with reference to Jehovah many times and nowhere specifically clearly used with reference to “Jesus,” the burden of proof rests on those who wish to prove that this scripture refers to anyone other than Jehovah.
“THE ONE WHO IS AND WHO WAS AND WHO IS TO COME”
As well, this verse (1:8) is speaking of “the One who is and who was and who is to come.” Just a couple verses before, at Revelation 1:5, we see greetings are given from the one “who is, and who was, and who is to come,” “and from Jesus Christ.” (NIV)
In verse 5 it’s obvious that the one “who is, and who was, and who is to come” is not Jesus Christ, because greetings are given from him “AND from Jesus Christ. So, when the phrase “the one who is and who was and who is to come” occurs 3 verses later, it would seem that this again establishes that we are speaking of someone other than Jesus. Or at the very least, it’s not at all clear that it’s speaking of Jesus.
Moreover, in the very next verse, the apostle John, says: “I . . . came to be in the isle that is called Patmos for speaking about God and bearing witness to Jesus.” (Rev. 1:9) So John understood God to be separate and distinct from Jesus.
Also, compare Revelation 4:8 where it says: “Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God Almighty, who was, and is, and is to come.” (NIV) We notice the phrase “holy, holy, holy” occurs only one other time in the Bible at Isaiah 6:3, and there it is referring to “Jehovah.” (Also compare Rev 11:17)On this point and others, not the following:
“Verse 8. I am Alpha and Omega. These are the first and the last letters of the Greek alphabet, and denote properly the first and the last. So in Revelation 22:13, when the two expressions are united, “I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.” So in Revelation 1:17, the speaker says of himself, “I am the first and the last.” Among the Jewish Rabbins, it was common to use the first and the last letters of the Hebrew alphabet to denote the whole of anything, from beginning to end. Thus it is said, “Adam transgressed the whole law from \^HEBREW\^ to \^HEBREW\^”–from Aleph to Tav. “Abraham kept the whole law from \^HEBREW\^ to \^HEBREW\^.” The language here is that which would properly denote eternity in the being to whom it is applied, and could be used in reference to no one but the true God. It means that he is the beginning and the end of all things; that he was at the commencement, and will be at the close; and it is thus equivalent to saying that he has always existed, and that he will always exist. Compare Isaiah 41:4, “I the Lord, the first, and with the last;'– Isaiah 44:6, “I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God;”–Isaiah 48:12, “I am he; I am the first, I also am the last.” There can be no doubt that the language here would be naturally understood as implying divinity, and it could be properly applied to no one but the true God. The obvious interpretation here would be to apply this to the Lord Jesus; for
(a) it is he who is spoken of in the verses preceding, and
(b) there can be no doubt that the same language is applied to him in Revelation 1:11.
As there is, however, a difference of reading in this place in the Greek text, and as it cannot be absolutely certain that the writer meant to refer to the Lord Jesus specifically here, this cannot be adduced with propriety as a proof-text to demonstrate his divinity. Many MSS., instead of “Lord,” \~kuriov\~, read “God,” \~yeov\~; and this reading is adopted by Griesbach, Tittman, and Hahn, and is now regarded as the correct reading. There is no real inco
ngruity in supposing, also, that the writer here meant to refer to God as such, since the introduction of a reference to him would not be inappropriate to his manifest design. Besides, a portion of the language here used, “which is, and was, and is to come,” is that which would more naturally suggest a reference to God as such, than to the Lord Jesus Christ. See Revelation 1:4. The object for which this passage referring to the “first and the last–to him who was, and is, and is to come,” is introduced here evidently is, to show that as he was clothed with omnipotence, and would continue to exist through all ages to come as he had existed in all ages past, there could be no doubt about his ability to execute all which it is said he would execute. Saith the Lord. Or, saith God, according to what is now regarded as the correct reading. Which is, and which was, etc. See Barnes “Revelation 1:4”. The Almighty. An appellation often applied to God, meaning that he has all power, and used here to denote that he is able to accomplish what is disclosed in this book.” )–Barnes’ Notes on the New Testament (1974)
One place this can be found is here: http://www.studylight.org/com/bnn/view.cgi?book=re&chapter=001REVELATION 1:11
The phrase “I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last” found in the King James Bible and a few others, is not found in some of the oldest Greek manuscripts, such as the Alexandrine, Sinaitic, and Codex Ephraemi rescriptus.
As far as I can tell, most modern versions of the Bible don’t include the phrase “I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last” in Revelation 1:11.
Here is a list of some Bibles that don’t have those words:New International Version (and UK version)
American Standard Version
New American Standard Version
The Message Version
New Living Translation
English Standard Version
New English
Basic English Bible
American Standard Version
Darby Translations
Holman Christian Standard Bible
New International Reader’s Version
Worldwide English (New Testament)
Today’s New International Version
Contemporary English Version
New World Translation
Jerusalem Bible
New American Bible
Douay-Rheims Bible (and Challenor’s)
Weymouth NTIt also doesn’t occur in some of the older Bibles. The Latin Vulgate of Jerome, for example.
The words in question are found in the King James Versions, the Webster Bible, and the Young Literal Translation, and I’m sure there must be others, but I only checked the 25 that were the easiest to find for myself.
I believe that the words: “Alpha and Omega, the first and the last” found in the King James Version is at the least, very questionable.REVELATION 1:17-18
“And when I saw him [referring to Jesus], I fell as dead at his feet. And he laid his right hand upon me and said: “Do not be fearful. I am the First [“First,” א?VgSyh; A, “Firstborn.”] and the Last, and the living one; and I became dead, but, look! I am living forever and ever, and I have the keys of death and of Hádes.”
We remember that in Rev 1:5, Jesus was called “the firstborn from the dead.” Here, we notice that Jesus being the “first and last” is connected to him being the living one who became dead, and him now having the keys of death and hades.
In what way does the Bible demonstrate that Jesus is the “first”?
REVELATION 1:5
“and from Jesus Christ, “the Faithful Witness,” “The FIRSTBORN FROM THE DEAD,”. . . “
ACTS 26:23
“that the Christ was to suffer and, as the FIRST TO BE RESURRECTED FROM THE DEAD, . . .”“
(Obviously, he wasn't the first to be resurrected from the dead, so this must be referring to him being the first to be resurrected in a specific way. Jesus was the first to be resurrected of those who would not have to die again. Also, he was the first to be raised as a spirit person. (1 Peter 3:18)
COLOSSIANS 1:18
“and he is the head of the body, the congregation. He is the BEGINNING, THE FIRSTBORN FROM THE DEAD, that he might become the one who is FIRST in all things;”
So, we could guess that Jesus being the “first” means that he is God Almighty, but it doesn't say this. We do know 2 things:
1. He is described, even in the same chapter of revelation (1:5), as being the first in that we was the first to be resurrected to immortal spirit life. (Col 1:18)
2. The statement in question continues to say that he is the living one who “became dead, but, look! I am living forever and ever.”
I believe that based on the context and these other scriptures, and with no direct evidence to the contrary, we have to believe that Jesus is the first in this respect.
How is he the “last”?
That too is covered in the rest of the statement. It says that he had been given the keys of death and of hades. Jesus was the “last” to be resurrected by Jehovah personally.
JOHN 5:21
“For just as the Father raises the dead up and makes them alive, so the Son also makes those alive whom he wants to.”
JOHN 6:40
“For this is the will of my Father, that everyone that beholds the Son and exercises faith in him should have everlasting life, and I will resurrect him at the last day.””
REVELATION 2:8
““And to the angel of the congregation in Smyr?na write: These are the things that he says, ‘the First and the Last,’ WHO BECAME DEAD AND CAME TO LIFE [again],” (Again, notice that with reference to Jesus, how these words are connected to Jesus death and resurrection.)
JOHN 11:25
“Jesus said to her: “I am the resurrection and the life. He that exercises faith in me, even though he dies, will come to life;”
It seems that Jehovah resurrected Jesus and that Jehovah has entrusted power of judging to Jesus, the power to resurrect. (Dan 7:13,14; 2 Tim 4:1,2) Jesus said: “I will resurrect him on the last day” and “I am the ressurection and the life…”
As Revelation 1:17,18 says, Jesus now has the keys of death and hades.
So I believe he was the “last” to be resurrected by Jehovah, the responsibility of resurrecting now being given to Jesus. For all others of humanity, Jesus himself is “the resurrection and the life.” (John 11:25)
This explanation looks at the words and ideas surrounding the actual phrase “first and the last” and it also looks at other scriptures that speak of Jesus being the first. (Compare Rev. 2:8) It is not based on the idea that I want something to be true. This is what the Bible says. And as far as I can tell, it carries much stronger evidence.
BUT JEHOVAH IS ALSO CALLED “THE FIRST AND THE LAST”
Can two different beings be called the same thing or be explained with the same words?
“The Greek word a·pósto·los is derived from the common verb a·po·steĺlo, meaning simply “send forth (or off).” (Mt 10:5; Mr 11:3) Its basic sense is clearly illustrated in Jesus’ statement: “A slave is not greater than his master, nor is one that is sent forth [a·pósto·los] greater than the one that sent him.” (Joh 13:16) In this sense the word also applies to Christ Jesus as “the apostle and high priest whom we confess.” (Heb 3:1; compare Mt 10:40; 15:24; Lu 4:18, 43; 9:48; 10:16; Joh 3:17; 5:36, 38; 6:29, 57; 7:29; 8:42; 10:36; 11:42; 17:3, 8, 18, 21-25; 20:21.) Jesus was sent forth by God as his appointed and commissioned representative.”–Insight, Vol 1, page 127.
Jesus is called apostle. Jesus apostles are called apostles. This does not mean they are the same being. Yet the word applies to both. What does it prove? It proves that those words can apply to both–not that they are the same person.
Similarly, Jesus is the first and last in certain respects, as the Bible itself plainly says. (See scriptures quoted above) And Jehovah is the first and last in that he is king of eternity and Creator.
ILLUSTRATION:
As I’ve said before, the moderator of this board was probably the first to post and will be the last to post. Nick, another moderator can be spoken of as the first to comment on any specific topic and will be the last to have his word in. Nick is the first and last, in that he comments a lot. T8 is the first and last in that he has been here before and after everyone. They are in no way the same person, are they? We could say: ‘T8, the Super Administrator, the first and the last,’ and then apply that first and last to the fact that he is the super administrator and will always be here and always has. But this in no way prevents those words “first” and “last” from being applied to Nick in some other special way.
*It’s important that you not misunderstand what I’m saying here: I’m saying words CAN apply to more then one person (without them being the same person). I’m not saying words can’t be applied to more than one. You can’t say to me: ‘You say that the word “Almighty” CAN’T apply to more than one person, yet here you say that this phrase (first and last) can apply to more than one.’ No. I’m not saying that a word “can’t” apply to more than one. I’m saying that in the case of the word “almighty” it “doesn’t.” I’m saying this is what the Bible shows in that case. I don’t believe that it, a word, in itself “can” only apply to one person. I believe that scripture clearly shows that this word “Almighty” is only ever used with reference to Jehovah and is done so repeatedly, from beginning to end, from the first to the last. I’m not saying it’s impossible for a word to be applied to more than one. I’m saying, with the case of the word “Almighty” for example, the evidence doesn’t suggest this.This scripture comes up a lot. Let’s look at it:
ISAIAH 44:6
““This is what Jehovah has said, the King of Israel and the Repurchaser of him, Jehovah of armies, ‘I am the first and I am the last, and besides me there is no God.”
In the original Hebrew at Isaiah 44:6, there is no definite article with the words “first” and “last,” whereas in Jesus’ description of himself in the original Greek at Revelation 1:17, the definite article is found. So, grammatically, Revelation 1:17 indicates a title, whereas Isaiah 44:6 describes Jehovah’s Godship.
When Jesus is presented by the title: “the First and the Last,” this doesn't in any way prove he is claiming equality with Jehovah or that he is Jehovah. He is using a title properly given him by God.
In Isaiah, Jehovah was making a statement about His unique position as the true God. He is God eternal, and besides him there is indeed no God. (1 Timothy 1:17) In Revelation, Jesus is talking about his bestowed tit
le, calling attention to his unique resurrection.
Look at this verse again.
Imagine someone, the largest person on the planet said this true statement:
‘I am tall and wide and besides me no one weighs more.’
That does not mean that someone else can't be described as tall and wide.
WHAT IT DOES MEAN is that no one else can be described as weighing more.
How can we understand the expression: Besides me there is no God?
We know that the Bible uses the word God with reference to other mighty ones, angels, human judges of Israel, etc. Angels are not false gods.
Look at the scripture. Jehovah is the first and the last. There was no one before him and He will exist forever. He is described as the king of eternity in the Bible. In this sense, no one can be compared to him.Ok, since no one is probably reading this, I'm not going to post anything on
Rev 21:6,7; 22:12; 22:12,13 just yet.First, I'd like someone to once again say: This is strong proof. Anyone? Can anyone back up such claims?
Hi Is 1:18
Alpha omega. Which is, and which was, and to come
Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
Arduous omega…WAS and is not, and shall ascend out the bottomless pit
Rev 17:8 The beast that thou saw was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
Also christ was briused taken from prison and judgement saw corruption amongest the wicked; assending out of the grave even twice if the crucifixtion death was one of incorruption?
Even the beast that was, and is not, even the eight of sevenAlpha on earth?
Michael the Archangel fights Satan and has him chained?
Both of Power…one for Good one for pride?
One Angel of light remains corruptible
One Angel rises incorruptible
For what its worth anyway?
More torture
Has it ever been ponder whether Satan had life put him as Man; as the Son Of God was given life?
Satan cast down to the earth?
Angel came to earth to preach the everlasting gospel
Rev 12:13 ¶ And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man [child].
Rev 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
Rev 12:15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
Rev 12:16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.Michael and the king Of Persia
Dan 10:13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.
Dan 10:14 Now I am come to make thee understand what shall befall thy people in the latter days: for yet the vision [is] for [many] days.
Dan 10:17 For how can the servant of this my lord talk with this my lord? for as for me, straightway there remained no strength in me, neither is there breath left in me.
Dan 10:18 ¶ Then there came again and touched me [one] like the appearance of a man, and he strengthened me,Do we really wish to say AND BELEIVE Christ has created Satan?
So if Satan is able to enter us with power that was given him by Christ
Then we could say Christ has THEN just created HIMSELF a fight?
Least God created all things for a Devine purpose.
And such a challenge was taken up from when the world began
TOWARDS WHO SHALL BE CROWNED KING2Sa 23:2 The Spirit of the LORD spake by me, and his word [was] in my tongue.
2Sa 23:3 The God of Israel said, the Rock of Israel spake to me, He that ruleth over men [must be] just, ruling in the fear of God.
2Sa 23:4 And [he shall be] as the light of the morning, [when] the sun riseth, [even] a morning without clouds; [as] the tender grass [springing] out of the earth by clear shining after rain.Eze 31:9 I have made him fair by the multitude of his branches: so that all the trees of Eden, that [were] in the garden of God, envied him.
Eze 31:10 ¶ Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thou hast lifted up thyself in height, and he hath shot up his top among the thick boughs, and his heart is lifted up in his height;Luk 13:18 ¶ Then said he, Unto what is the kingdom of God like? and whereunto shall I resemble it?
Luk 13:19 It is like a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and cast into his garden; and it grew, and waxed a great tree; and the fowls of the air lodged in the branches of it.Jdg 9:8 The trees went forth [on a time] to anoint a king over them; and they said unto the olive tree, Reign thou over us.
Jdg 9:9 But the olive tree said unto them, Should I leave my fatness, wherewith by me they honour God and man, and go to be promoted over the trees?
Jdg 9:10 And the trees said to the fig tree, Come thou, [and] reign over us.
Jdg 9:11 But the fig tree said unto them, Should I forsake my sweetness, and my good fruit, and go to be promoted over the trees?
Jdg 9:12 Then said the trees unto the vine, Come thou, [and] reign over us.
Jdg 9:13 And the vine said unto them, Should I leave my wine, which cheereth God and man, and go to be promoted over the trees?
Jdg 9:14 Then said all the trees unto the bramble, Come thou, [and] reign over us.
Jdg 9:15 And the bramble said unto the trees, If in truth ye anoint me king over you, [then] come [and] put your trust in my shadow: and if not, let fire come out of the bramble, and devour the cedars of Lebanon.The elected one? that shall become the first in the Image Of God And the chosen first begotten Son?
One ruled to death
One ruled to lifeSelah
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