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Hi WJ:
There is a thread on whether or not we were born sinners. I have given my understanding of the subject there if you would like to read what I have to say.
I asked you to define sin for me and you are right it means to “miss the mark” or “sin is the transgression of the Law”. (1 John 3:4) Therefore, sin is a spiritual condition that results from one's yielding to temptation.
I brought this up because you say: “The body of Christ was born sinnless because he was not of the seed of Adam but of God”.
God Bless
Quote Hi W,
Try these and you will see two things.
Sin actions and sin living in us.
James 1:14
But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
James 1:15
Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
John 8:34
Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
Romans 8:10
And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
1 Corinthians 6:18
Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.
Romans 6:11
Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
7What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.8But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
9For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
10And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
11For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
12Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
13Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
14For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
NH
Ok So basically we are sinners by nature and committ sin! No problem here. The point is we are all sinners, but not all are saved by grace!
Hi W,
Born into the kingdom of darkness under the rule of Satan through sin dwelling in us. As Jesus told the Pharisees they and we need to clean the inside of the cup and not dwell on an external titivations. All commit sin as men seem unable to resist temptation so all need salvation.
That inner cleansing is now possible in faith in Christ, repentance and the sign of baptism pleading for God to do the inner cleansing by the blood of the Lamb so that our vessel is fit to house the treasure of the Spirit of God.
Grace leads men to repentance and every other step of obedience.
Grace is all.
Ephesians 2:5
Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)942767
Quote I brought this up because you say: “The body of Christ was born sinnless because he was not of the seed of Adam but of God”. See the following:
Heb 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
Heb 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
Heb 2:18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Christ did not yield to temptation.
Quote I asked you to define sin for me and you are right it means to “miss the mark” or “sin is the transgression of the Law”. (1 John 3:4) 1Jo 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
Yes; Sin is the transgression of the law.
Quote (Cult Buster @ Jan. 19 2007,05:05) 942767 Quote I brought this up because you say: “The body of Christ was born sinnless because he was not of the seed of Adam but of God”. See the following:
Heb 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
Heb 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
Heb 2:18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Christ did not yield to temptation.
Quote I asked you to define sin for me and you are right it means to “miss the mark” or “sin is the transgression of the Law”. (1 John 3:4) 1Jo 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
Yes; Sin is the transgression of the law.
Hi CB:And so, Jesus was born into this world as and infant just as you and I and the rest of humanity were born into this world.
And as we agree, sin is the transgression of the Law, and so, did you transgress the law as an infant?
God Bless
Sin is two things. First, it is the state that we are all born in, ie, seperation from God. Secondly, sin is the act of doing or thinking (intentionally) something that is against righteousness.
Quote Sin is two things. First, it is the state that we are all born in, ie, seperation from God. Secondly, sin is the act of doing or thinking (intentionally) something that is against righteousness. Oxy
Amen!
Quote (Oxy @ Jan. 19 2007,23:46) Sin is two things. First, it is the state that we are all born in, ie, seperation from God. Secondly, sin is the act of doing or thinking (intentionally) something that is against righteousness.
Hi Oxy:I thought we just defined sin “as the transgression of the law”. Where in the bible do you find the definitions that you are giving me?
And are children of born again Christian parents born separated from God? What about the following scriptures that suggest that they are not?
“For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: ELSE YOUR CHILDREN WERE UNCLEAN BUT NOW THEY ARE HOLY”. (1 Co. 7:14)
“Children, obey your parents in the Lord: for this is right. Honour thy father and mother; which is the first commandment with promise; that it may be well with thee, and thou mayest live long on the earth”. (Ephesians 6:1-3)
God Bless
Quote (942767 @ Jan. 20 2007,00:38) Quote (Oxy @ Jan. 19 2007,23:46) Sin is two things. First, it is the state that we are all born in, ie, seperation from God. Secondly, sin is the act of doing or thinking (intentionally) something that is against righteousness.
Hi Oxy:I thought we just defined sin “as the transgression of the law”. Where in the bible do you find the definitions that you are giving me?
And are children of born again Christian parents born separated from God? What about the following scriptures that suggest that they are not?
“For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: ELSE YOUR CHILDREN WERE UNCLEAN BUT NOW THEY ARE HOLY”. (1 Co. 7:14)
“Children, obey your parents in the Lord: for this is right. Honour thy father and mother; which is the first commandment with promise; that it may be well with thee, and thou mayest live long on the earth”. (Ephesians 6:1-3)
God Bless
You are exactly right in quoting 1 Cor 7:14. It proves my point exactly. According to that Scripture the child is born in sin, but covered by the believing parent. If that child had no believing parent, their state of sin would be against them.Quote (Oxy @ Jan. 20 2007,06:54) Quote (942767 @ Jan. 20 2007,00:38) Quote (Oxy @ Jan. 19 2007,23:46) Sin is two things. First, it is the state that we are all born in, ie, seperation from God. Secondly, sin is the act of doing or thinking (intentionally) something that is against righteousness.
Hi Oxy:I thought we just defined sin “as the transgression of the law”. Where in the bible do you find the definitions that you are giving me?
And are children of born again Christian parents born separated from God? What about the following scriptures that suggest that they are not?
“For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: ELSE YOUR CHILDREN WERE UNCLEAN BUT NOW THEY ARE HOLY”. (1 Co. 7:14)
“Children, obey your parents in the Lord: for this is right. Honour thy father and mother; which is the first commandment with promise; that it may be well with thee, and thou mayest live long on the earth”. (Ephesians 6:1-3)
God Bless
You are exactly right in quoting 1 Cor 7:14. It proves my point exactly. According to that Scripture the child is born in sin, but covered by the believing parent. If that child had no believing parent, their state of sin would be against them.
Hi Oxy:Please explain to me how my quoting 1 Co. 7:14 proves your point.
What it shows is that children are the responsibility of the parent. The child of an unbeliever is not separated from God through his own sin but because of the sin of the parents. The child has not transgressed the law, and therefore, has not sinned, but of course, all mankind will sin.
But as I said, please explain to me how 1 Co. 7:14 proves your point, or give me scripture for your point.
Thanks, and God Bless
Sorry 942767, I thought I did explain it.
The Scripture in question… 1Co 7:14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband; else your children would be unclean, but now they are holy.
This verse points out that the children would be unclean (opposite to holy) without a believing parent. If they were not born into a state of sin (seperation from God) then they would not need a believing parent to make them holy.
The really sad thing is that not many people will accept this Scripture. The popular belief is that all children are innocent and therefore automatically go to Heaven. I have not seen Scripture to support this.
My first child was stillborn and we knew that because of our belief that the child went to be with the Lord. My belief that my wife and I shared were a covering for that child. Non believers do not have the luxury of peace and joy in such an event, but their grief is consuming because there is no hope.
Quote (Oxy @ Jan. 21 2007,09:14) Sorry 942767, I thought I did explain it. The Scripture in question… 1Co 7:14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband; else your children would be unclean, but now they are holy.
This verse points out that the children would be unclean (opposite to holy) without a believing parent. If they were not born into a state of sin (seperation from God) then they would not need a believing parent to make them holy.
The really sad thing is that not many people will accept this Scripture. The popular belief is that all children are innocent and therefore automatically go to Heaven. I have not seen Scripture to support this.
My first child was stillborn and we knew that because of our belief that the child went to be with the Lord. My belief that my wife and I shared were a covering for that child. Non believers do not have the luxury of peace and joy in such an event, but their grief is consuming because there is no hope.
Hi Oxy:My understanding of this is that the children of unsaved parents are born separated from God not because of their sin but because of the sin of their parents. The child has not yet sinned although we know that all men who are born of the sperm of man will sin.
The child will not go to heaven if it dies prior to the salvation of one of the parents, that is if it dies during childhood. The parents are responsible and they will be judged because of their sins, but not the child.
But to say a child is born a sinner is not an accurate statement given that we difine sin as “the transgression of the law”. The Apostle Paul in another scripture also states: that by the law is “knowlege of sin”.
I'm sorry to hear about your stillborn child, but yes, I believe that you and your wife will see your child again if you continue in the faith.
God Bless
Quote (942767 @ Jan. 21 2007,14:47) Quote (Oxy @ Jan. 21 2007,09:14) Sorry 942767, I thought I did explain it. The Scripture in question… 1Co 7:14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband; else your children would be unclean, but now they are holy.
This verse points out that the children would be unclean (opposite to holy) without a believing parent. If they were not born into a state of sin (seperation from God) then they would not need a believing parent to make them holy.
The really sad thing is that not many people will accept this Scripture. The popular belief is that all children are innocent and therefore automatically go to Heaven. I have not seen Scripture to support this.
My first child was stillborn and we knew that because of our belief that the child went to be with the Lord. My belief that my wife and I shared were a covering for that child. Non believers do not have the luxury of peace and joy in such an event, but their grief is consuming because there is no hope.
Hi Oxy:My understanding of this is that the children of unsaved parents are born separated from God not because of their sin but because of the sin of their parents. The child has not yet sinned although we know that all men who are born of the sperm of man will sin.
The child will not go to heaven if it dies prior to the salvation of one of the parents, that is if it dies during childhood. The parents are responsible and they will be judged because of their sins, but not the child.
But to say a child is born a sinner is not an accurate statement given that we difine sin as “the transgression of the law”. The Apostle Paul in another scripture also states: that by the law is “knowlege of sin”.
I'm sorry to hear about your stillborn child, but yes, I believe that you and your wife will see your child again if you continue in the faith.
God Bless
Thanks for your reply. I hear what you are saying, I think. I hadn't looked at it quite that way.My thoughts are that the child is unholy unless covered by a believing parent. This means the child is seperated from God. It is sin that seperates us from God and this is our inheritance from Adam. The child is only covered by the parent's faith until such time as they choose to follow or reject the Lord.
So to say that sin is a transgression of the law is true.
But I believe that sin (seperation from God) is also our inheritance from Adam, which is why Christ came, to restore.I really would like to consider this subject more thoroughly.
On page 540 of the “trinity” thread, Is 1:18 stated:
“The 'First and Last', 'Alpha and Omega' verses are the strongest possible proof that Yahshua claimed to be God (YHWH), as this is a title that YHWH exclusively reserves for Himself. “
(bold added for emphasis)If someone like Is 1:18, who often seems to know what he is talking about says that this is the strongest possible proof, I think we should all spend some time on this.
As much as I love and respect Is 1:18, I cannot see how the Son can be the Father.
I am aware that the title “Almighty” belonged to God the Father, but then later it is shown as being a title given to Jesus. This title was given to Jesus AFTER the resurrection and AFTER He was given all authority. Interesting.
Quote I am aware that the title “Almighty” belonged to God the Father, but then later it is shown as being a title given to Jesus. I'm wondering what you base this on. Which scriptures?
david
Indeed david,
Revelation 21:22
And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.Their is One God.Deu 4:35 “To you it was shown that you might know that the LORD, He is God; there is no other besides Him. Jesus is God in Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.. He became flesh in ,Joh 1:14And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.
Isa 43:10 “You are My witnesses,” declares the LORD, “And My servant whom I have chosen, So that you may know and believe Me And understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me.
Isa 43:11 “I, even I, am the LORD, And there is no savior besides Me.
Isa 43:12 “It is I who have declared and saved and proclaimed, And there was no strange god among you; So you are My witnesses,” declares the LORD, “And I am God.
Isa 43:13 “Even from eternity I am He, And there is none who can deliver out of My hand; I act and who can reverse it?”
Isaiah make it clear that there is only one true God.
Jesus in John said and claimed that He was this God and savior.
Joh 8:24 “Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”
John 1:3 show Jesus as God the Creator.
Joh 1:3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.
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