Alpha Omega First Last

Participant

Quote

Hi W,
God is a person but His finger is a part of His person not another person. That is daft to suggest the Spirit is another person from God Himself, the Father.

You ascribe to Athanasius?
This is what he said
“25. And in this Trinity none is before or after another: none is greater or less than another.
26. But the whole three Persons are co-eternal together, and co-equal.
27. So that in all things, as aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity, and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshiped.
28. He therefore that will be saved, must thus think of the Trinity.”

Three persons.

But God's finger is of His person is it not?
Can you not look then at Athanasius's teachings and tell us he was wrong if you really believe what you are posting here?

So then God sent himself and Jesus also sent God?

JN 14:
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Jn 14:26
But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Jn 15:26
26
But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

How can you hold to your belief and deny these words?

January 13, 2007 at 10:56 pm#36993

Participant

Hi W,
Trying to create confusion does not help the cause of truth and neither does it give you credence.

The Spirit of God is of God who is in heaven and is sent by God into the created world to be His manifestation. Christ was fully made replete in the Spirit, in him and his brothers also called the Spirit of Christ. God poured the same Spirit in the name of Christ into his brothers. God in Christ and in us.
No confusion.

January 13, 2007 at 10:58 pm#36994

Participant

Quote (Is 1:18 @ Jan. 13 2007,22:23)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 13 2007,21:56)

Hi Is 1.18,
Jesus is never described as the creator.

What about Heb 1:10?

Hi Is 1.18,
Heb 1.10
“10And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:'
The work was done by and through him by God.
Where does it say Jesus is the creator?

January 13, 2007 at 11:23 pm#36995

Participant

Hi Is 1.18,
God was in him and spoke through him.
Jn 8
” 45And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

46Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?

47He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God. “

His accusers misunderstood him too.
Scripture says that God raised him.

January 13, 2007 at 11:31 pm#36996

Participant

Quote

Hi Is 1.18,
God was in him and spoke through him.
Jn 8
” 45And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

46Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?

47He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God. “

His accusers misunderstood him too.
Scripture says that God raised him.

So Jesus lied!

Jn 2:
18 Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What sign shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things?

19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?

21 But he spake of the temple of his body.

22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.

Why dont you believe them NH?

Its sad, you cant fit his word in your Arian view so lets just ignore them for the sake of your doctrine.

January 13, 2007 at 11:39 pm#36997

Participant

Hi W,
You only get confused if you do not know there are two beings involved.
Jesus and His Father.
God was IN HIM reconciling the world to Himself.
Listen to Thomas
“My Lord AND my God”

January 14, 2007 at 4:29 am#37004

Is 1:18

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 13 2007,22:58)

Heb 1.10
“10And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:'
The work was done by and through him by God.
Where does it say Jesus is the creator?

NT authors appear to have no hesitancy at all in applying OT verses that reference YHWH to Yahshua. Hebrews 1:10, I think, is an exemplar.

Hebrews 1:10
And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands

The writer of Hebrews was quoting Psalms 102:25, a verse that was written in exclusive reference to the Most High God, YHWH, as the context of the latter part of the Psalm bears out:

Psalm 102:19-27
19For He looked down from His holy height; From heaven the LORD gazed upon the earth, 20To hear the groaning of the prisoner, To set free those who were doomed to death, 21That men may tell of the name of the LORD in Zion And His praise in Jerusalem, 22When the peoples are gathered together, And the kingdoms, to serve the LORD. 23He has weakened my strength in the way; He has shortened my days. 24I say, “O my God, do not take me away in the midst of my days, Your years are throughout all generations. 25″Of old You founded the earth, And the heavens are the work of Your hands. 26″Even they will perish, but You endure; And all of them will wear out like a garment; Like clothing You will change them and they will be changed. 27″But You are the same, And Your years will not come to an end. 28″The children of Your servants will continue, And their descendants will be established before You.”

The application of Psa 102:25 to Yahshua shows that, in the Holy Spirit inspired-opinion of the author the language used to describe YHWH's act of creation is perfectly APPLICABLE TO the Logos. It also shows that the pre-incarnate Jesus was the Creator in the active and primary sense, the actual executor of the creation itself, not not just an inactive instrument that God used to create the heavens and earth. According to the writer of Hebrews it is the Father Himself who personally addresses his Son as THE Creator of the cosmos!

There is something else in this verse that is highly significant and I meant to put it to Adam Pastor is a previous exchange but never got around to it….note the highlighted word in the verse, which was quoted from Psalm 102:25-27 (LXX 101:25 – 27):

Hebrews 1:10
And, Thou, Lord (Gr. kurios), in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands

The Father calls the Son “Lord.” Now this is interesting! “kurios”, of course, is the Greek word used in most LXX manuscripts to render the Divine Name, YHWH. But importantly, when used as an honorific (i.e.”lord”) it signifies that the one addressed is superior in rank or station to the speaker. This is principal is exceptionless. So there are two possible senarios here:

1) The Father was addressing the Son in a way that denoted His subservience or inferiority in rank to Yahshua. Or,

2) He was addressing the Son as YHWH.

I surmise that #1 cannot be legitimate in light of the many NT verses the Father is spoken as being superior in office to the Son. So that leaves only one possibility – The Father addresses the Son as YHWH. This would align perfectly with the context of Hebrews Ch 1 as a whole, which is about the absolute supremacy of the Son. It also fits precisely within the context of vss 10-12 which are OT quotations that manifestly reference YHWH.

Blessings

January 14, 2007 at 4:50 am#37006

Participant

Hi Is 1.18,
There are verses that tell us God has a son.
There are none that say the Son is the Father.

January 14, 2007 at 5:20 am#37009

Participant

Quote

Hi Is 1.18,
Christ was fathered by God by His spirit[btw David this shows the Spirit of God is God]and born a son of God and Man but he had been with God in the beginning.

Nick. Can you hear yourself.

Over and over again, you hear people say: “The son of God is God.”
And you look at that as foolish. It's like the “I'm my own grandpa” song. Ridiculous. The son “of” God is related to God, in that he is the “son of” God. Yet, with this, you don't mind the ridiculousness of it all.
This is like saying: “Nick's finger is Nick.” (It's a part of Nick. It's of Nick. It's the finger of Nick. But it is not Nick.)

Yet, you say: “The spirit of God is God.” You also said that the holy spirit's name is “God.”

Nick's finger is Nick.
God's holy spirit is God.

These statements are illogical, impossible.

I assure you that your finger is not “Nick.” It is your finger. It is a part of you. “It” isn't a person. “It” isn't a him. You are a him. Your finger is “of” you.

(You had repeatedly stated that the holy spirit was God's finger. That's why I'm using this.)

So let's look at what you say:

Quote

Christ was fathered by God by His spirit[btw David this shows the Spirit of God is God]

OK Nick. HOW does this show that the spirit of God is God? Can you please answer me. If not, let your mind acknowledge to itself that you are wrong.

Nick pushed the button.
Nick's finger pushed the button.

OH, WELL, I GUESS NICKS FINGER IS NICK, THEREFORE.

Insanity.

Nick's finger is Nick's finger. Just because you make your finger do a certain action, whereby it can be said that you or your finger committed that action, DOES NOT IN ANY WAY, WHATSOVER, IN THE SLIGHTEST STRETCH OF ANY IMAGINATION, MAKE YOUR FINGER, YOU.

And nor does God's holy spirit's impregnation of Mary prove what you want it to prove.

And if it does, please explain how? I'm certain you can't.

Nick. You are wrong. I know you have to know this.

Jehovah is specifically clearly called God a thousand or so times in scripture. If the holy spirit is God, as you say, why Oh why don't the writers try to convey this thought?

david

January 14, 2007 at 5:32 am#37010

Participant

Hi david,

Acts 5
“1But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession,

2And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles' feet.

3But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?

4Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.

5And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things”

Where was God?
God is at work in us to will and to do.
God was in the apostles.

The Spirit of God was in the apostles.
Lying to the body of Christ was lying to the Spirit which is lying to God.
The consequences were severe.
We must respect the Spirit of God as God.

January 14, 2007 at 5:54 am#37013

Participant

Quote

We must respect the Spirit of God as God.

That we must Nick. One way we can respect God's holy spirit is by not going against it's workings. We must also respect God.
One way we can respect him is by teaching the truth and not misrepresenting Him or his holy spirit.

I asked you to show me why you beleived the holy spirit's name was “God.” Then, I asked again. You just post different thoughts.

Can anyone have an actual real converation with you Nick?

In the last post, I commented on what you said. You again made a claim: that “Christ was fathered by God by His spirit[btw David this shows the Spirit of God is God” and I called you on it.

You either
1)don't read my posts

2)you can't answer my questions.

#1 seems to show a lack of respect or a certain unhonourableness in dealing with people.
#2 indicates that you are wrong in your beliefs and have no answers.

WHICH IS IT?

(The irony of this post, is that I'm asking you to tell me why you don't answer questions. WILL YOU ANSWER IT? ? ?)

speaking statistically, I'd say the chances are “no.”
But still, the question remains: Is it #1 or #2?

I think I should conduct a poll on this question.

January 14, 2007 at 6:06 am#37014

Is 1:18

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 14 2007,04:50)

Hi Is 1.18,
There are verses that tell us God has a son.
There are none that say the Son is the Father.

I agree!

January 14, 2007 at 6:12 am#37016

Participant

Other than the first page of this thread, I havent really noticed people on here talking about the alpha and omega. Why is that?

I mean, there are many trinity threads. This one is about the phrase: “alpha and omega,” isn't it?

January 14, 2007 at 6:35 am#37020

Participant

Quote

NT authors appear to have no hesitancy at all in applying OT verses that reference YHWH to Yahshua. Hebrews 1:10, I think, is an exemplar.

Hebrews 1:10
And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands

The writer of Hebrews was quoting Psalms 102:25, a verse that was written in exclusive reference to the Most High God, YHWH, as the context of the latter part of the Psalm bears out:

Psalm 102:19-27
19For He looked down from His holy height; From heaven the LORD gazed upon the earth, 20To hear the groaning of the prisoner, To set free those who were doomed to death, 21That men may tell of the name of the LORD in Zion And His praise in Jerusalem, 22When the peoples are gathered together, And the kingdoms, to serve the LORD. 23He has weakened my strength in the way; He has shortened my days. 24I say, “O my God, do not take me away in the midst of my days, Your years are throughout all generations. 25″Of old You founded the earth, And the heavens are the work of Your hands. 26″Even they will perish, but You endure; And all of them will wear out like a garment; Like clothing You will change them and they will be changed. 27″But You are the same, And Your years will not come to an end. 28″The children of Your servants will continue, And their descendants will be established before You.”

Hebrews 1:10
And, Thou, Lord (Gr. kurios), in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands

The Father calls the Son “Lord.” Now this is interesting! “kurios”, of course, is the Greek word used in most LXX manuscripts to render the Divine Name, YHWH. But importantly, when used as an honorific (i.e.”lord”) it signifies that the one addressed is superior in rank or station to the speaker. This is principal is exceptionless. So there are two possible senarios here:

1) The Father was addressing the Son in a way that denoted His subservience or inferiority in rank to Yahshua. Or,

2) He was addressing the Son as YHWH.

I surmise that #1 cannot be legitimate in light of the many NT verses the Father is spoken as being superior in office to the Son. So that leaves only one possibility – The Father addresses the Son as YHWH. This would align perfectly with the context of Hebrews Ch 1 as a whole, which is about the absolute supremacy of the Son. It also fits precisely within the context of vss 10-12 which are OT quotations that manifestly reference YHWH.

Blessings

Is 1:18

Somehow it seems that those who dont accept the diety of Jesus and the Oneness he has with the Father as God, look at him as a mere vessel that the Father worked through, somewhat of a puppet I suppose. An empty shell that God the Father filled.

Not seeing of course that Jesus unlike any other man had life in himself!

Jn 5:16-28
And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day.
But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.
Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.
Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.
For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

A close examination of these scriptures shows intimacy of relationship with the Father.

This is what these scriptures show…

1. Jews wanted to kill him because he (Lord of the Sabbath), broke the Sabboth and made himself equal to God.

2. Whatever Jesus sees the Father do, “He does also”.

3. The Father raises the dead, and Jesus had the power to raise whom he will.

4. The Father judges no man, but committs all judgement to Jesus.

5. So that all men should honour Jesus “even as” they honour the Father.

6. Whoever hears Jesus word and believes in the Father has everlasting life.
Notice: When we speak the words that lead men to Jesus, they are not our words but “Jesus words”. We call this the “Word of God”. Jesus takes claim to the word as his.

7. The dead shall hear the voice (word) of Jesus and live.

8. “As the Father has life in himself”, he has given Jesus to have life in himself.
Note: NH, This is why he could lay it down and take it up.

9. Jesus has been given authority to execute judgment.

10. Jesus says the hour is coming when those in the graves will hear the Fathers voice.
Note: Jesus said the dead would hear his voice. HMM. What divine unity with the Father and the Son, God.

How does one explain his God like attributes like laying down his life and taking it up again.

Or like when Jesus said he would send the Holy Spirit to us.

Or when the scriptures plainly show that he is the one who created all things.

God they say created all things through Jesus, he was just a channel I suppose that the Father used.

Their Implication is that Jesus didnt do a thing, and I suppose the Spirit that moved upon the face of the waters didnt either.

So they say Jesus is not the creator. Which of course to admit this would mean he is Deity!

So If all things were made by him and for him, who did the making?

The Word of course!

For it is by him that all things consist and are upheld by the word of his/Jesus Power!

Jn 5:17
But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.

Blessings

January 14, 2007 at 6:38 am#37021

Participant

Quote

A close examination of these scriptures shows intimacy of relationship with the Father.

Just out of curiousity, where are the scriptures that show intimacy of relationship between the Father and holy spirit or between the holy spirit and Jesus?
Or where are the scriptures that speak of the love that the holy spirit has for the Father? Or vice versa?
Or where are the scriptures that speak of the love and intamicy that the holy spirit has for man? There's a pile of scriptures that speak of the love that Jehovah and Jesus have for man.

Why is the holy spirit left out of such personal emotions?

hmmm

(I know this thread isn't on the holy spirit. It's on the alpha and omega. But since we're not discussing that, oh well.)

January 14, 2007 at 7:05 am#37023

Participant

Quote

Why is the holy spirit left out of such personal emotions?

hmmm

(I know this thread isn't on the holy spirit. It's on the alpha and omega. But since we're not discussing that, oh wel

David

Those who are born of the Spirit,(Oops did I say that?How can a force or power bring birth to anything?), know that the Spirit of God is present wherever the Father and Son is at work!

Gen 1:1,2
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

Matt 1:18
Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.

And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.
And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

Jesus later in Jn ch 14,15,16, explains and reveals the Holy Spirit to the Disciples.

Jn 14:16-18
And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

“But ye KNOW HIIM, For he DWELLETH with you”

Jn 15:26
But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

The primary ministry of the Spirit is to Glorify and testify of Jesus!

January 14, 2007 at 7:26 am#37024

Participant

Quote

Those who are born of the Spirit,(Oops did I say that?How can a force or power bring birth to anything?), know that the Spirit of God is present wherever the Father and Son is at work!

“(Oops did I say that?How can a force or power bring birth to anything?)” you said.
I should mention that there is a difference between “power” and “force.”

As an illustration, one might compare it to another invisible force, electricity, which may be used to make various types of machines operate—causing stoves to produce heat, fans to produce wind, computers to solve problems, television sets to produce figures, voices and other sounds—yet which electric current never takes on any of the characteristics of the machines in which it functions or is active.

“Power” is basically the ability or capacity to act or do things and it can be latent, dormant, or inactively resident in someone or something.” “Power” might be likened to the energy stored in a battery, while “force” could be compared to the electric current flowing from such battery.

But my point, which you missed was: Don't you think it's odd that the holy spirit is never spoken of in that way, the way that both Jehovah and Jesus are so very many times?–As having great love for one another?

January 14, 2007 at 7:29 am#37025

Participant

Hi W,
The amazing thing is that Jesus could have opposed the work of God's Spirit in him and rebelled and not been led by that Spirit. In the garden of Gethsemene he showed that he still had his own will and could have used it to rebel but as with every choice in his life he chose to submit to God. He could have tried to get equality with God , or not emptied himself and come in flesh but he obeyed the greater being.
We can do the same.
That is why we are told to let the Spirit lead us.

Gal 5
” 25If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. “

We must follow him.

January 14, 2007 at 7:40 am#37027