Alpha Omega First Last

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 13 2007,20:23)

If you know Yashua was a son in the beginning, before all things, then what do you say about how he became a son?

Luke 1:35
And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

Hebrews 1:5
For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

Luke 1:35 speaks for itself but in Hebrews 1:5 it's important to note that these words were uttered to Logos, He was told that he would be “a Son”.

January 13, 2007 at 8:52 pm#36969

Participant

Quote

Luke 1:35
And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

Hebrews 1:5
For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

Luke 1:35 speaks for itself but in Hebrews 1:5 it's important to note that these words were uttered to Logos, He was told that he would be “a Son”.

How true!

January 13, 2007 at 8:57 pm#36970

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 13 2007,20:40)

Hi Is 1.18,
There are so called gods but for us only one God. Appellations, even in scripture, do not define our behaviors.

What on earth does this mean??

Quote

However since you agree the others are sons of Yahweh who were with Him and not part of His being why do you take a different view of The Son of God through whom they came into being?

Even by your logic the “Son” of YHWH (i.e. one that was really supernaturally procreated by YHWH) would have to share in his nature/substance. A being can not beget another (i.e. a clone) that is lesser in it's being. If this is untrue, I would like it explained to me how this could be so. While I don't hold that there was a pre-incarnation begettal (as scripture does not support this view), I do believe that the logos existed “in the form (Gr. morphe) of God”

Morphe – Perhaps from the base of G3313 (through the idea of adjustment of parts); shape; figuratively nature: – form. (Strong’s Concordance).

“always signifies a form which truly and fully expresses the being which underlies it” (James Hope Moulton and George Milligan, The Vocabulary of the Greek Testament [Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1930], p. 417).

The Word existed in the form of God, and “is the express image” (exact representation) of His (The Father's) “hypostasis” (Gr. essence/substance)

Hypostasis – From a compound of G5259 and G2476; a setting under (support), that is, (figuratively) concretely essence, or abstractly assurance (objectively or subjectively): – confidence, confident, person, substance. (Strong’s Concordance).

“… in Heb. 1:3, of Christ as “the very image” of God's “substance;” here the word has the meaning of the real nature of that to which reference is made in contrast to the outward manifestation (see the preceding clause); it speaks of the Divine essence of God existent and expressed in the revelation of His Son. The AV, “person” is an anachronism; the word was not so rendered till the 4th cent. Most of the earlier Eng. versions have “substance;” (Vine’s Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words)

Pretty clear really….whatever “form” the Father existed in, the Logos shared it….whatever the essence/substance/nature that defines the Father's being is represented exactly in the Son.

Hope this explains it to you.

January 13, 2007 at 9:03 pm#36972

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 13 2007,20:52)

Quote

Hebrews 1:5
For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

Luke 1:35 speaks for itself but in Hebrews 1:5 it's important to note that these words were uttered to Logos, He was told that he would be “a Son”.

How true!

Hi WJ, nice to see you. Hope you're well….

January 13, 2007 at 9:07 pm#36973

Participant

Hi Is 1.18,
The hebrews verse describes the relationship between the Father and the Son. The Father promises to be a true father to his son.
You still have not explained why you treat the Son of God, through whom God created , differently from the other created sons. You are happy to allow them to have life in themselves as separate beings with God but not the Son. All are sons and you do not try to prove they are part of God or part of Jesus because they were creaed through him but somehow you cannot accept that the Son was a real son because he derived directly from God as the unique monogenes son. Sonship seems to mean different things for different sons.

January 13, 2007 at 9:10 pm#36975

Participant

Hi Is 1.18,
Christ was fathered by God by His spirit[btw David this shows the Spirit of God is God]and born a son of God and Man but he had been with God in the beginning.

January 13, 2007 at 9:16 pm#36976

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 13 2007,21:07)

Hi Is 1.18,
The hebrews verse describes the relationship between the Father and the Son. The Father promises to be a true father to his son.

So exactly what kind of Father was he before this?? That's a very strained exegesis….

Quote

You still have not explained why you treat the Son of God, through whom God created , differently from the other created sons.

Ummmm….because One was the Creator of all things (i.e. YHWH) and the others are part of the created order. I thought I made that clear.

Quote

You are happy to allow them to have life in themselves as separate beings with God but not the Son. All are sons and you do not try to prove they are part of God or part of Jesus because they were creaed through him

I have never affirmed that the Logos was anything other than a volitional, sentient person.

Quote

but somehow you cannot accept that the Son was a real son because he derived directly from God as the unique monogenes son. Sonship seems to mean different things for different sons.

If you can direct me to one verse that shows The Logos was birthed by the Father “in the beginning” that would be a good starting point…..

January 13, 2007 at 9:17 pm#36978

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 13 2007,21:10)

Hi Is 1.18,
Christ was fathered by God by His spirit[btw David this shows the Spirit of God is God]and born a son of God and Man but he had been with God in the beginning.

I agree.

January 13, 2007 at 9:53 pm#36980

Participant

Quote (Is 1:18 @ Jan. 13 2007,21:16)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 13 2007,21:07)

Hi Is 1.18,
The hebrews verse describes the relationship between the Father and the Son. The Father promises to be a true father to his son.

So exactly what kind of Father was he before this?? That's a very strained exegesis….

Quote

You still have not explained why you treat the Son of God, through whom God created , differently from the other created sons.

Ummmm….because One was the Creator of all things (i.e. YHWH) and the others are part of the created order. I thought I made that clear.

Quote

I have never affirmed that the Logos was anything other than a volitional, sentient person.

Quote

but somehow you cannot accept that the Son was a real son because he derived directly from God as the unique monogenes son. Sonship seems to mean different things for different sons.

If you can direct me to one verse that shows The Logos was birthed by the Father “in the beginning” that would be a good starting point…..

Hi Is 1.18,
Speaking of his human sonship to God it says this about Jesus;
Hebrews 5:8
Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered

This is how a real father treats all his sons

Heb 12
” 1Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

2Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

3For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.

4Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.

5And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:

6For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

7If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

8But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

9Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?”

No advatages over us he grew to knowledge through suffering.

Is 53
1Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?

2For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.

3He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.”

Eph 3
“13Wherefore I desire that ye faint not at my tribulations for you, which is your glory.

14For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,

15Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,

16That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; '

1Peter 4
” 1Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;

2That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.”

God fathered, then parented Christ.

January 13, 2007 at 9:56 pm#36981

Participant

Hi Is 1.18,
Jesus is never described as the creator. He created for God according to the command of God. All things were created through him but he was not the Creator God who is his Father. As a Son he was totally unselfish and obeyed God. Phil 2 tells us we are to imitate him in his relationship with God. If he was that God they could not be in a relationship and we cannot imitate him.

January 13, 2007 at 10:02 pm#36982

Participant

Quote

btw David this shows the Spirit of God is God]

If the Spirit of God is God and God is a person it dosnt take a rocket scientist to figure that the Spirit of God is a person!

January 13, 2007 at 10:11 pm#36983

Participant

Hi W,
God is a person but His finger is a part of His person not another person. That is daft to suggest the Spirit is another person from God Himself, the Father.

You ascribe to Athanasius?
This is what he said
“25. And in this Trinity none is before or after another: none is greater or less than another.
26. But the whole three Persons are co-eternal together, and co-equal.
27. So that in all things, as aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity, and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshiped.
28. He therefore that will be saved, must thus think of the Trinity.”

Three persons.

But God's finger is of His person is it not?
Can you not look then at Athanasius's teachings and tell us he was wrong if you really believe what you are posting here?

January 13, 2007 at 10:16 pm#36984

Participant

Quote (t8 @ Jan. 13 2007,09:33)

Quote (Is 1:18 @ Jan. 14 2007,03:55)

OKAY! Now we're getting somewhere!

Is Yahshua the LITERAL firstborn Son, procreated by God 'in the beginning'?

If so, kindly give me scripture that bears this out….

I don't think I can give you a clear scripture for this if you are looking for one.

The closest one maybe this one, but it could be referring to Israel.

Proverbs 30:4
Who has gone up to heaven and come down?
Who has gathered up the wind in the hollow of his hands?
Who has wrapped up the waters in his cloak?
Who has established all the ends of the earth?
What is his name, and the name of his son?
Tell me if you know!

Instead I realise that Christ is a mystery and all I have are scriptures to give. I am sure in time the revelation of Jesus Christ will be clearer, but for now we look through a glass darkly and you have to consider this.

Anyway this scripture gives us a clue.

1 Corinthians 8:6
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

So all came THROUGH Christ. God made all things through him. This suggests that he was before all created things. Even angels.

We also know that the Word was with GOD in the beginning. We know that the Word is Jesus and he is the only begotten son of God and the only begotten of the Father.

So looking at many scriptures we know that Jesus is the son of God. That God created all things through him and that there are sons of God or angels in heaven that must have been created by God and through him, suggesting of course that he is older than them.

So I believe these things.

Jesus is the only begotten of the Father.
The firstborn of all creation.
The son of God.
The image of God.
The Word of God.
The agent by which God created all things.

If you ask me to define it any closer than that, then I may have to venture outside of scripture and come up with some sort of creed. I could have a good guess, but I wouldn't like to make a definite statement that I couldn't back up.

1 John 3:2
Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when he appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.

Thanks for not shirking the question and answering so honestly. I appreciate that. Though I think the confessions you have made are very telling indeed. I might have to remind you of them the next time to decide to chasten a trinitarian for daring to postulate a doctrine you consider to be not explicitly revealed in scripture.

PS; regarding Proverbs 30:4; this may or may not be a reference to the pre-earth Jesus. Israel was also called “My Son” by YHWH in scripture (Ex 4:22).

Exodus 4:22-23
22And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:
23And I say unto thee, Let my son go, that he may serve me: and if thou refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay thy son, even thy firstborn.

Blessings

January 13, 2007 at 10:21 pm#36985

Participant

Quote (942767 @ Jan. 13 2007,14:34)

Hi Isaiah 1:18:

And so, how do you explain the statements that Jesus made in light of all the scriptures that say that God raised him from the dead.

Just to quote one: “And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies trough his Spirit, who lives in you”. (Rom. 8:11)

I have given you my understanding which I am always happy to do. I know that my understanding can be wrong, and if i is I want to be corrected, and so, I would like your understanding of this.

Thank you and God Bless

I think we are both right. The Father raised the Son, but He did not do this to the exclusion of the Son. Likewise, the Son raised Himself, but He did not do this to the exclusion of the Father. That way there is no contradiction and scripture is harmonised. “YHWH' raised Yahshua.

January 13, 2007 at 10:22 pm#36986

Participant

Quote

Look again!!!

Heb 1:
8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.
13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?

This is the Father speaking to the Son!

January 13, 2007 at 10:23 pm#36987

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 13 2007,21:56)

Hi Is 1.18,
Jesus is never described as the creator.

What about Heb 1:10?

January 13, 2007 at 10:26 pm#36988

Participant

Quote (Is 1:18 @ Jan. 13 2007,22:21)

Quote (942767 @ Jan. 13 2007,14:34)

Hi Isaiah 1:18:

And so, how do you explain the statements that Jesus made in light of all the scriptures that say that God raised him from the dead.

I have given you my understanding which I am always happy to do. I know that my understanding can be wrong, and if i is I want to be corrected, and so, I would like your understanding of this.

Thank you and God Bless

Hi Is 1.18,
Show us ONE scripture that confirms that Jesus RAISED HIMSELF.
Jn 2 and it's quotations do not state that he DID this.

January 13, 2007 at 10:32 pm#36989

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 13 2007,22:26)

Quote (Is 1:18 @ Jan. 13 2007,22:21)

Quote (942767 @ Jan. 13 2007,14:34)

Hi Isaiah 1:18:

And so, how do you explain the statements that Jesus made in light of all the scriptures that say that God raised him from the dead.

I have given you my understanding which I am always happy to do. I know that my understanding can be wrong, and if i is I want to be corrected, and so, I would like your understanding of this.

Thank you and God Bless

Hi Is 1.18,
Show us ONE scripture that confirms that Jesus RAISED HIMSELF.
Jn 2 and it's quotations do not state that he DID this.

Been there, done that. I have written my thoughts plainly and have nothing more to add. Either you accept His claim the He would raise up the Temple (“of His body”) and had the authority to do this, or you don't.

January 13, 2007 at 10:33 pm#36990