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hi ED,
God reasons with those yet to see that they must submit to Him.
Hi Nick,
God does not *MAKE* people submit to Him.
___________
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org _________________________________________________________________________________________________________
”Call unto me, and I will answer thee, and show thee great and mighty things, which thou knowest not.” – JEHOVAH GODEdJ,
You said you’re certain that Jesus is part of God. The Bible does seem to point to Jesus being part of God, assuming the Bible is 100% accurate and assuming our translations are conveying the message properly. Our translations are not very good at all, and we could never get a 100% accurate translation due to cultural differences and sayings. However, I think the Bible’s close enough to get most truths…however, we’re are not taught to see the world the way an Easterner does, and we’re missing several practices we used to have, so we have a very skewed way of viewing God and the world, making it very hard to understand what the Bible’s saying.
So, what makes you certain that Jesus is part of God? What do you believe is your 100% “proof”?
EdJ,
You said you’re certain that Jesus is part of God. The Bible does seem to point to Jesus being part of God, assuming the Bible is 100% accurate and assuming our translations are conveying the message properly. Our translations are not very good at all, and (1)we could never get a 100% accurate translation due to cultural differences and sayings. However, I think the Bible’s close enough to get most truths…however, we’re are not taught to see the world the way an Easterner does, and we’re missing several practices we used to have, so we have a very skewed way of viewing God and the world, making it very hard to understand what the Bible’s saying.
(2)So, what makes you certain that Jesus is part of God? (3)What do you believe is your 100% “proof”?
Hi Brian,
1) Do you agree that the “AKJV Bible” is the best English translation we have?
2) “For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.
I came forth from the Father, and come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.” (John 16:27-28)
3) The BibleQ. Do you believe that the bible is written on more than one level?
A. …?___________
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org _________________________________________________________________________________________________________
”Call unto me, and I will answer thee, and show thee great and mighty things, which thou knowest not.” – JEHOVAH GODEdJ,
I’m sorry, I got ahead of myself when I was typing that response earlier. What I should’ve said is, one theory I have is that Jesus was created along with us and because He embodied the WORD, He identified with always having been in existence with God. Or, because we’re all made out of God, Jesus identified with having always existed as part of God. An Easterner might answer questions of existence the way Jesus answered them, but an Easterner isn’t God Himself. For example, if I wanted to, I could say I existed before Abraham since I believe I was likely with God in the beginning, and I could say I’m part of God, too, since I believe I’m made out of Him. I could possibly even say I am “god.” Jesus said we are “gods,” (though, I suspect that means we are “elohim,” which means powerful. You can see how my worldview could greatly influence what I mean when I say it, and how it could be very confusing for someone to understand if they have a different worldview.
My other theory, which I lean more toward, is that Jesus was probably always part of God, and when God manifested in the flesh, it was Jesus manifesting (for instance, to Abraham in Genesis 18). When people die and are resuscitated, 1/3rd of them have after-death experiences where they go to heaven and God takes them all through the same basic scenario. They go through the light, get to God, then He has them relive all the experiences in life where they hurt someone else’s feelings in some way, but this time, the person feels the other person’s emotions whom they hurt. It humbles people greatly. When God accepts them and says what they did wasn’t good or bad or right or wrong, but that it was just a lesson learned, their shame goes away and is replaced by amazing love, peace, and joy. (That’s the Refiner’s Fire in heaven) At that point, most people don’t want to leave to go back to their bodies. So other people will come to them and start trying to convince them to go back to earth. Sometimes, if the person is going to have kids in the future, their kids will come to them and say, “You made contracts with us. You agreed to have us. You have to go back.” The person goes back and the EMT or Doctor’s attempts to resuscitate them are successful. They come back to life, and years later, they have all of those children. It’s bizarre. There are thousands who report this phenomenon. There are tens of thousands of recorded after-death experiences. Dr. Moody is well known for recording them and examining them. Sometimes, the people in heaven get very reverent and say, “He’s coming. The Redeemer is coming.” So, Jesus, in heaven, is very important–a little different than everyone else. That’s why I tend to think He’s a part of God–an expression of God’s unconditional love. And I believe there are parts of the Bible that point to that reality, too.
I apologize for that long explanation and for misspeaking the first time. Sometimes, I get distracted and reply too quickly and don’t state things as succinctly as I’d like.
EdJ,
I just want to thank you for the great discussion. I really enjoy when people are friendly and humble while discussing this stuff.
1. No, I think we have almost no good translations. Usually, the translators are translating from a Western religious viewpoint, and they lack tons of information about the original culture and their sayings. I’ll give you an example of this with your next question. I’m going to use the translation I use for the New Testament. This translation has multiple renderings and it came out this year, so it’s pretty new.
2. I’ll show you the same verse in the translation I use. It’s called The New Testament by Jonathan Mitchell (it has a really long subtitle). John 16:27-28:
27. “for the Father, Himself, continuously likes, has fond affection for, and is constantly friendly to you people, because you have liked and been friendly to, and even have shown fond affection for Me, and further, you folks have trusted and still believe that I came out from God’s side (or: came forth from beside God).
28. “I came from out of the midst of [other MSS: I went forth from beside] the Father and I have come into the ordered arrangement (the world; the System of culture, religion, economics and politics; or: the system of culture and religion; or: leaving the ordered arrangement), and then I am progressively journeying on (traveling to another place), directed to and facing toward the Father.”
This translator gives you, as best he can, what the original sayings of the people mean. So, you don’t see it written simply at all. You see a full rendering of what the people were saying when they used a word. If you read the AKJV, you get the English impression of what was being said and it’s written for the masses to easily understand. However, it’s not a very good understand of what was actually said. This is why sayings are so important. Also, this translator adds in what other reputable manuscripts say. He also gives multiple renderings, because some sayings can mean multiple things. As you can see, translation work is not at all simple or cut and dry. And it’s not something where both languages have a word, or even multiple words, to describe what the source language means by their word. It’s incredibly hard to translate and it’ll never come out 100% accurate. The AKJV is sorely lacking a lot of translation discoveries we’ve found in the past 50 years that are extremely important. Also, a Greek translator needs to understand the original Hebrew, too. If they don’t, they won’t understand the Hebrew ideas and sayings that the New Testament speakers were trying to convey. This is a tri-culture affair spanning 2,000-3,600 years.
I believe the Bible has several layers of depth to its sayings. I’m not sure what you mean by “written on more than one level.”
Thanks Brian,
I think you did a pretty god job of explaining your view.
It would be nice if you would consider rather than Jesus, the HolySpirit is “The Word”.“The Word” which ye hear is not (Jesus) mine” (John 14:24)
“The words that I speak unto you are spirit” (John 6:63)___________
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org _________________________________________________________________________________________________________
”Call unto me, and I will answer thee, and show thee great and mighty things, which thou knowest not.” – JEHOVAH GODHi Brian,
1) Do you agree that the “AKJV Bible” is the best English translation we have?
2) “For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.
I came forth from the Father, and come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.” (John 16:27-28)
3) The BibleQ. Do you believe that the bible is written on more than one level?
A. …?EdJ,
I just want to thank you for the great discussion. I really enjoy when people are friendly and humble while discussing this stuff.
1. No, I think we have almost no good translations. Usually, the translators are translating from a Western religious viewpoint, and they lack tons of information about the original culture and their sayings. I’ll give you an example of this with your next question. I’m going to use the translation I use for the New Testament. This translation has multiple renderings and it came out this year, so it’s pretty new.
2. I’ll show you the same verse in the translation I use. It’s called The New Testament by Jonathan Mitchell (it has a really long subtitle). John 16:27-28:
27. “for the Father, Himself, continuously likes, has fond affection for, and is constantly friendly to you people, because you have liked and been friendly to, and even have shown fond affection for Me, and further, you folks have trusted and still believe that I came out from God’s side (or: came forth from beside God).
28. “I came from out of the midst of [other MSS: I went forth from beside] the Father and I have come into the ordered arrangement (the world; the System of culture, religion, economics and politics; or: the system of culture and religion; or: leaving the ordered arrangement), and then I am progressively journeying on (traveling to another place), directed to and facing toward the Father.”
Hi Brian,
1) What translation is that? Point #2 answers my question.
2) And just how do you figure he has done a better job of this verse?___________
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org _________________________________________________________________________________________________________
”Call unto me, and I will answer thee, and show thee great and mighty things, which thou knowest not.” – JEHOVAH GOD(1)This translator gives you, as best he can, what the original sayings of the people mean. So, you don’t see it written simply at all. (2)You see a full rendering of what the people were saying when they used a word. (3)If you read the AKJV, you get the English impression of what was being said and it’s written for the masses to easily understand. However, (4)it’s not a very good understand of what was actually said. This is why sayings are so important. (5)Also, this translator adds in what other reputable manuscripts say. (6)He also gives multiple renderings, because some sayings can mean multiple things. As you can see, translation work is not at all simple or cut and dry. And it’s not something where both languages have a word, or even multiple words, to describe what the source language means by their word. (7)It’s incredibly hard to translate and it’ll never come out 100% accurate. (8)The AKJV is sorely lacking a lot of translation discoveries we’ve found in the past 50 years that are extremely important. (9)Also, a Greek translator needs to understand the original Hebrew, too. If they don’t, they won’t understand the Hebrew ideas and sayings that the New Testament speakers were trying to convey. (10)This is a tri-culture affair spanning 2,000-3,600 years.
(11)I believe the Bible has several layers of depth to its sayings. I’m not sure what you mean by “written on more than one level.”
Hi Brian,
1) That is the goal of all translators, or at least it’s suppose to be.
2) What I see is: opinions added to God’s word.
3) Do you disagree with the text? …if so, how?
4) Why?
5) What “manuscripts” are these?
6) The AKJV Bible does this with certain words as well. (see 1Thess.4:15 as an example)
7) Certainly YHVH has created it this way.
8) Like what, and please be specific.
9) Do we not have the Septuagint Bible?
10) 1Cor.14:27 “If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two(Hebrew, Aramaic),
or at the most by three(Greek), and that by course; [and let one (“AKJV Bible”) translate].
11) My Point #10 gives one such example.___________
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org _________________________________________________________________________________________________________
”Call unto me, and I will answer thee, and show thee great and mighty things, which thou knowest not.” – JEHOVAH GODEdJ,
Isaiah 14:19-20
Ha! I’d never read through that considering it’s talking about Jesus. Typically, people think it’s talking about Satan. But I always wondered why it called Satan the Morning Star when the Morning Star was Jesus according to Revelation 22. I never studied the passage with the intent to figure out who the Morning Star was it was talking about. That’s pretty intriguing. I’d have to agree that it’s talking about Jesus.
Thanks!
So, why did you share that with me?
why did you share that with me?
Hi Brian,
To help you to better understand the big picture.
I have a thread on this subject, perhaps you
would like to discuss this in greater detail. …[b](Link)[/b]___________
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org _________________________________________________________________________________________________________
”Call unto me, and I will answer thee, and show thee great and mighty things, which thou knowest not.” – JEHOVAH GODEdJ,
I’ll only answer a few of these:
1) That is the goal of all translators, or at least it’s suppose to be.
(My answer: Yes, but translators must know the original culture well and must know what the original writers intended. If a translator doesn’t know the old culture extremely well, they’ll completely misunderstand. Also, a translator’s beliefs absolutely must influence their translation unless they cast out their beliefs as best they can and adopt the original writers’ beliefs. Unfortunately, we do not know the Ancient Hebrew beliefs. We know just a little about them. However, in the past 50 years, the Israeli researchers have learned tons more about them, because they found a nomadic tribe, directly descended from Abraham who clued us in to their beliefs. Most people don’t know that the Hebrews were pantheistic–not in the typical Pantheism way, but in the way that God made everything out of Himself, so everything is “God,” or more specifically part of God. This is how we found that they’re Eastern philosophy)
2) What I see is: opinions added to God’s word.
Then you might want to research translation. What you’ll find is that translator took the Greek sayings back then and their way of writing and thinking and gave the full explanation of their words. You can find translations like this from scholars such as Jonathan Mitchell, but they’re sitting in dusty libraries at seminaries and get used by scholars or students sometimes. The public rarely gets to see translations such as this. He’s giving some of the best-known translations we have of late with what we know of the old Greek culture and the Hebrew culture. Trust me when I say, “You’ll want to research translation.” I recommend Hope Beyond Hell to get a taste of it, and At the End of the Ages gives a little taste of it, too. And finally, Jeff Benner shares the cutting edge of what’s been discovered in translation recently that most American translators don’t know about.
3) Do you disagree with the text? …if so, how?
I don’t disagree with the text. I just think that when I read it with a Christian worldview, it means one thing, and when I read it with an Eastern worldview, it means something slightly different or it could have a few different meanings. I’ve heard Easterners interpret Jesus’ words and actions far better than I’ve ever heard a Westerner interpret them.
5) What “manuscripts” are these?
Oh, he’s not using manuscripts that aren’t normally used for translation. I forget which exactly, but you can look up his website and it should tell you. He’s not using anything out of the ordinary. He just did his research on the old cultures really well. And he could be wrong, too, despite his research.
6) The AKJV Bible does this with certain words as well. (see 1Thess.4:15 as an example)
The AKJV is ripe with incorrect word translations or inspecific word usages. For instant, Job is called a “perfect” man, and Joseph is called a “simple” man. But the root word is the same word. It does not mean perfect or simple. It means, “mature in thought and action, and a feeling of wholeness and completeness.” In other words, “perfect” is a religious word created by the Catholics and used by Tyndale, Wycliff and other translators. Also, there are 5 different words for “love” that all mean different types of love, but we only see the word “love” in the Greek. The word “punishment” in “eternal punishment” is actually the word the Greeks use for correctional punishment, and it’s the word always used when describing hell. The one time the other word, vindictive punishment, is used is when Paul talks about what he did to the Christians when persecuting them. This is why good translations are hard to find. We’re saturated with very lacking translations.
7) Certainly YHVH has created it this way.Yeah, but the Pharisees could say the same thing: “Sure, God created our texts this way and he has a reason for it. Surely God has things playing out this way for a reason.” And yet the Pharisees were blind to their indoctrination and religious mindsets. I do not care for religion. God is everyone’s Father because we’re all human and He created us. Sure, there’s metaphoric language in the Bible to describe those who’ve accepted Jesus as “children of God,” but that’s their saying back then. Religion excludes people and pits them against each other. It separates. So religious people can easily say “God surely made it this way” or “He made it this way for a reason,” but what reason? That’s the question…and who can answer it correctly?
9) Do we not have the Septuagint Bible?
Again, translation is a tricky business. Go learn about it if you want to truly understand what I’m talking about. I’m about to bow out of this conversation because I can quickly see it turning into a debate. I don’t care to debate. And it’s pointless to discuss something like this when one party has no idea what the other is talking about in regard to translation. I used to think I understood translation and I used to think the AKJV was one of the best translations nowadays. Then I started studying translation. Very quickly I realized just how wrong I was and just how difficult translation is. Heck, the word “eternal,” for instance, doesn’t mean forever. That word is “aeon” in the Greek, which means “age” or “age abiding.” There are very few instances when aeon can mean ageless, and it’s only when its coupled with God, because we know His nature is endless. However, the saying itself “eternal judgment” seems to be used in such a way that indicates a place, not a duration of time. Eternal indicates the place, and judgment indicates the action. In other words, someone dies and goes into eternity (place) for judgment (correctional purification). That’s the way the Church Fathers and Sibylline Oracles use the term. They say it’s strictly to purify people so they can be in paradise with God eventually. Even the Jews today believe people are only in hell temporarily because God forgives. They say 11 months is the limit, but I say there’s no such thing as “time” in eternity. Do you see the problem with translations yet and how they skew our perception of what’s being said? Did you know that in the 500 AD era, Augustine and the government decided that eternal hell was definitely correct, and they started burning documentation that said otherwise and outlawed the belief in hell being temporary? This happened for a few hundred years during the dark ages. Translation and information matters.
10) 1Cor.14:27 “If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two(Hebrew, Aramaic),
or at the most by three(Greek), and that by course; [and let one (“AKJV Bible”) translate].
11) My Point #10 gives one such example.Your reference from 1 Cor 14:27 is in a chapter discussing speaking in different languages. It’s also trying to discern people who are speaking in supposed “tongues of angels” and “tongues of men.” That, in itself, is an interesting study, but has nothing to do with translation.
NickHassan,
I see faith differently than you. I believe faith comes from working through our dysfunctional emotions (fear, anger, grief) and connecting with our true child-of-God self on the other side of them. Everything comes into alignment with one another then (spirit, emotions/heart, mind, body). We get insight from our child-of-God self who’s intimately interwoven with God once we achieve this. And it is a natural state of being, at that point, to live in the moment instead of worrying about the past or the future all the time and getting stuck in our minds because of it. Instead of leading our lives by intellect out of the mind, we lead our lives in the moment by our intuitions that come from God. And we have this deep peace, joy, and contentment that is always with us, and it’s natural to know God has everything worked out. Even if we must go into extremely painful situations or even death, we are more than happy to do it because of this state of being. That’s faith. It develops over time as we go deeper into our painful emotions and connect with our true selves which are hidden in God.
– Brian
Hi Brian,
Faith comes from hearing, and hearing the word of God.
If you are interested in what God teaches
God saves.
We need to grasp that we are in a desperate state and need His help.
He who does not obey the Son will not see life , but the wrath of God remains on him.
EdJ,
1) That is the goal of all translators, or at least it’s suppose to be.
a) My answer: Yes, but translators must know the original culture well and must know what the original writers intended.
b) Also, a translator’s beliefs absolutely must influence their translation6) The AKJV Bible does this with certain words as well. (see 1Thess.4:15 as an example)
a) The AKJV is ripe with incorrect word translations or inspecific word usages. For instant, Job is called a “perfect” man, and Joseph is called a “simple” man. But the root word is the same word. It does not mean perfect or simple. It means, “mature in thought and action, and a feeling of wholeness and completeness.
b) In other words, “perfect” is a religious word created by the Catholics and used by Tyndale, Wycliff and other translators
c) Also, there are 5 different words for “love” that all mean different types of love, but we only see the word “love” in the Greek.
d) The word “punishment” in “eternal punishment” is actually the word the Greeks use for correctional punishment, and it’s the word always used when describing hell. The one time the other word, vindictive punishment, is used is when Paul talks about what he did to the Christians when persecuting them.9) Do we not have the Septuagint Bible?
a) Go learn about it if you want to truly understand what I’m talking about.
b) I’m about to bow out of this conversation because I can quickly see it turning into a debate.
c) And it’s pointless to discuss something like this when one party has no idea what the other is talking about in regard to translation.
d) I used to think I understood translation and I used to think the AKJV was one of the best translations nowadays.
e) Heck, the word “eternal,” for instance, doesn’t mean forever. That word is “aeon” in the Greek, which means “age” or “age abiding.Hi Brian,
1a) How can the translators know what the original writers intended?
1b) That’s the problem with modern translations which are not translated “word for word”6a) That is why we use a bible Concordance, Dr. James Strong did a very good job as he was a Hebrew Scholar.
6b) Is God complete, or mature, or “Perfect”?
6c) Yes, knew that
6d) Yes, knew that too9a) I have learned about it, but still do not completely know what you are talking about
9b) How so?
9c) I get what you are trying to say.
9d) Many multi-linguists disagree with you.
9e) Yes, knew that too___________
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org _________________________________________________________________________________________________________
”Call unto me, and I will answer thee, and show thee great and mighty things, which thou knowest not.” – JEHOVAH GODThanks for the link, EdJ. I’ll check that out. That’s pretty interesting.
Hi Brian,
Great, looking forward to discussing may things with you as I can see you are well studied!
___________
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org _________________________________________________________________________________________________________
”Call unto me, and I will answer thee, and show thee great and mighty things, which thou knowest not.” – JEHOVAH GODNickHassan,
No need to try to proselytize me. I grew up Christian. I’ve studied tons since I was 16 when God dropped all of my shame. I don’t see salvation the same way as Christians. The Ancient Hebrews saw salvation as being saved out of their situation. Often, when God would save them out of their situation, it would trigger something in their hearts that would cause them to start wanting to know God better. But they understood that to know God better, they must mature emotionally. So, when Paul says, “Work out your salvation with fear and trembling,” that’s what he’s talking about.
He’s talking about continuing on the path of salvation by going into the dysfunctional emotions that are stuck (fear, anger, and grief). I’ve worked a lot on letting fear, anger, and grief surface so I can be with those emotions unconditionally (that’s what unconditional love is). Those emotions are what block us from experiencing God and our true child-of-God selves. Just below the emotions is the spirit, and our spirits are interwoven with God–inseparable. But we’re so focused on the physical world and our thoughts and intellect, we often don’t worry about the emotions. Usually, we try to get to God physically, or mentally (intellectually), but it doesn’t work. We may get glimpses, but we don’t experience Him fully. It takes the heart being emotionally mature and in alignment with our mind and body for us to truly experience God and live out of our authentic child-of-God spirit.
I’ve processed a lot of fear and anger and grief. It’s awesome as they integrate. And as they integrate, I noticed that I have less fear, anger, and grief (sadness/depression), because those emotions aren’t stuck anymore. They’re not present so they can’t be triggered anymore. The Bible says, “Be angry, but don’t sin in your anger.” In other words, feel your anger, but don’t act out dysfunctionally to suppress it, because that hurts other people. The emotions are what trigger the sinful behaviors. If we learn to just contain those emotions by feeling them and letting them be unconditionally without reacting, then we grow emotionally.
The Bible says, “Perfect love casts out fear…If a man fears, his heart has not yet been made perfect in love.” That’s why we love those dysfunctional emotions unconditionally (perfect love). Because it causes them to resolve. Then, in time, we no longer fear. We no longer get angry. We no longer become sad. Or, in instances where those emotions do come up, they’re completely contained and we don’t react to them. Once we’re fully integrated, our emotional energy is completely freed up to drive all of the positive emotions. That’s what salvation is all about. It’s not about escaping hell. Yes, it keeps us from having to spend any time in hell to break our resistance to God (pride), but it doesn’t get us out of the job of maturing emotionally.
I studied the Bible so much, and none of it helped my heart mature. Only experiencing my painful emotions without condition helped my heart mature. I can tell you from experience, that is far better than “escaping hell,” because it connects me with God. And I understand what the Bible means so much better now due to these experiences. When hell is no longer an eternal threat, you’d be surprised how much fear that releases in a person, and how much hidden resentment toward God it releases. Because how could a loving God do that to people? Heck, how could a loving God even cause people to not exist anymore by destroying them instantly in hell? (depends on your belief of what hell is, of course) If God is not wise enough and powerful enough to orchestrate everything to get every last person saved and matured and into heaven, then He’s not very wise or loving. The God I know can do all things, as the Bible says, and He saved everyone, as the Bible says. In the Old Testament, you’d be surprised how many verses say God will restore everyone and everything–not just some. All.
No need to try to “save” me, brother. The Bible says that’s the Holy Spirit’s job. I’m well taken care of, but thanks for the sentiment. Read Hope Beyond Hell and At the End of the Ages if you want to see why hell is not eternal and why the translations make it a little difficult to understand this. Lots of good references to scholastic works in those books if you want to rely on the scholars. If you want emotional development (working out your salvation), I recommend The Presence Process by Michael Brown (Revised/Second Edition).
dysfunctional emotions that are stuck (fear, anger, and grief)
Hi Brian,
Would you like to hear my input regarding that?
___________
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org _________________________________________________________________________________________________________
”Call unto me, and I will answer thee, and show thee great and mighty things, which thou knowest not.” – JEHOVAH GODHi, EdJ.
1a) How can the translators know what the original writers intended?
Exactly. They can’t know what the original writers intended. This is all a huge guessing game. And that’s why the translators beliefs play such a huge role in how his translation comes out. The best a translator can do is learn as much about the old culture as possible, and that’s always going to be very limited. Then he has to guess at what the writer intended to say, because language is just an expression of thought. Most of our translators have very little information to go on about the original cultures they’re translating from. So, my goal when looking into the translation of verses is always to seek out what our most cutting-edge discoveries are about the original culture and how that affects the translation of the verse I want translated more accurately. I like Jeff Benner’s website in regard to this stuff. He does an excellent job.
1b) That’s the problem with modern translations which are not translated “word for word”
Well, for one, “word for word” is impossible, but I suspect you understand that. Translation is a conveying of an idea, not “word for word.” There’s a tribe in South America who has no term left and right. They say “up-river” and “down-river” when they’re telling someone which way to turn, because all of their directions are set off the river close to their village. Imagine trying to translate “turn right” or “right hand” into their language. You can’t do it. It’s not possible, because they have no words for it. And they have no words for it, because they have no mental concepts of it. Ideas must be conveyed in translation, not words. It’s incredibly difficult and tricky.
6a) That is why we use a bible Concordance, Dr. James Strong did a very good job as he was a Hebrew Scholar.
Jeff Benner says that Strongs is a good place to start, and for most words, it’s fairly accurate. But he says that the words lose a lot of their meaning in the Strongs. A person has to go much deeper if they’re to really figure out what many key words meant to the original writers. As I study his translation work brought over from the more recent discoveries in Israel, I find different meaning in the Bible. The best way to describe this is to link you to a page on his website that goes more in-depth on about 36 Ancient Hebrew words. It’ll show some of the Paleo Hebrew, too, which is very revealing. Once you get a good understanding of those words and you use that understanding while reading the Bible, you’ll see how things have different meanings than we think they do, and God is painted in a different light than what we paint Him in.
6b) Is God complete, or mature, or “Perfect”?
Yes, God is completely mature. In my opinion, by religion’s standards of the word they created called “perfect,” God does not measure up. lol
Take Jesus, for example. Christians believe Jesus was really nice and friendly and made you feel great about yourself and would never upset you. Let’s take a look at His behavior and see if that’s true.
– When the rich man comes to Him, He tells the man to sell all of his stuff and come follow Him if he wants to be in the Kingdom of Heaven. That guy felt awful after that, because he couldn’t do it.
– Jesus walks into the Outer Court of the Temple and throws a raving mad fit, flipping over the money changers tables and telling them off. They felt awful about that.
– He disproved the Pharisees regularly. They were enraged at that.
– He said, “<span id=”en-NIV-23452″ class=”text Matt-10-34″><span class=”woj”>Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.</span></span><span id=”en-NIV-23453″ class=”text Matt-10-35″><span class=”woj”><sup class=”versenum”> </sup>For I have come to turn </span></span>a man against his father, <span class=”text Matt-10-35″><span class=”woj”>a daughter against her mother, a</span></span> daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law—a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.”
Does that sound like a guy who is concerned with making you feel good about yourself? No. Those are the actions of a man who is reflecting the dysfunctional issues of a person’s heart back to them. And it triggers those dysfunctional emotions in them, making them feel awful. But if they don’t know how to be with those emotions unconditionally to integrate them, they’ll go right back to their old dysfunctional (sinful) behaviors. That’s what Jesus/God does to people today, too. It’s why people say that you enter that battle once you’re saved. People pray to get closer to God, and God starts showing them the scariest, ugliest parts of their heart by orchestrating events to trigger those painful emotions. People think they’re doing something wrong, but they’re not. They just haven’t been taught what it means to mature into relationship with God and our authentic selves.
6c) Yes, knew that [in regard to 5 versions of the word “love” in the Greek]
6d) Yes, knew that too [in regard to eternal punishment being correctional according to the Greek]Lots of people know about the 5 versions of “love” in the Greek, but few know about the two types of “punishment” in Greek. I’m impressed that you’ve come across that. I figured you might know that–you seem pretty well studied. So, you can see how it would throw a person’s beliefs way off if they thought hell were not correctional (for the purpose of purifying us rather than harming us), right? The translations and our teachings today completely mess up Christians. I think we’re back to the time of the Pharisees again.
Regarding feeling like this could become a debate, don’t worry about that. That’s just my old experiences creeping up on me. It’s hard to tell what people mean online sometimes, because there’s no body language or vocal inflection to help interpret.
9a) I have learned about it [translation], but still do not completely know what you are talking about
When I first started researching translation a long time ago, all of the sources I came across were American translators (or multi-linguists if you prefer that term). The scholars were all in general agreement on everything and Strong’s Concordance ruled supreme. Then, a couple of years ago, I started learning about how translation is taught here in America. I found that it’s all based off of very out-dated research. What I mean by out-dated is, the research is well over 50 years old. The Israelis, however, are discovering so much more that sheds a ton of light on translation and goes much much deeper. In fact, as we go deeper, we end up finding that many of our concepts are incorrect, because our translations are not good representations of what’s being stated in the texts. I’ll give you an example:
“The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom, and knowledge of the Holy One is understanding.” (Pro 9:10)
We’re told “fear” means both fear and reverence or respect. This is a reverent or respectful fear, according to scholars. Well, how do we reconcile that with this verse: “Perfect love casts out fear…If a man fears, his heart has not yet been made perfect in love.” So, if I put those together, it means that God tells me not to fear, but that if I’m going to gain wisdom, I need to fear and respect Him. That’s contradictory. Let’s look at the real meaning of that word. And what I’m about to show you is not something American scholars and translators are largely unaware of.
The word “fear” is completely misunderstood. Where is fear felt? Typically in the gut. It’s sometimes felt in the chest or lungs. Where is reverence felt? Typically in the gut area. We call the gut/stomach the “second brain” because of the Enteric nervous system there. It is its own independent nervous system separate from the brain’s autonomic system. Tons of nerves connect there and we get tons of sensations in that part of our body as a result of our different emotional states. As a result, this is the part of the body where we stuff some of the most important emotions due to shame. Shame and fear sit in this part of the body. Once we can’t feel them, we can’t feel our other emotions very well either. We eventually will rarely feel any of our emotional sensations in our gut area. Unfortunately, that means that we lose our capacity for true insight and connection with God through our emotions. But, if a person learns how to get better at feeling, they start feeling those horrible emotions stuffed down there, and eventually, those emotions resolve and integrate. At that point, we start really connecting with God strongly through our emotions and through emotional insights. It makes life REALLY awesome. I’ve experienced it and I still experience it to this day. I’m in process right now, so it gets suppressed a little, here and there, but after processing, it feels amazing. Makes life so much more enjoyable. That’s what the Hebrews were referring to in that statement–the emotional sensations of the gut. Some call them “felt resonances.” They happen all over the body. But shame sits in the gut, and shame is the key. Once shame integrates, it’s much easier to connect with God and experience Him directly in relationship. Without that emotional processing, one gets stuck and has a very difficult time connecting with God.
Okay, now let’s look at the next problem with the verse. When you see “hand of the LORD” or “face of the LORD” or “name of the LORD,” they’re all written in the Ancient Hebrew the same way–denoting ownership (God’s hand, God’s face, etc). But for some reason, translators don’t understand that “fear of the LORD” is written with the same ownership denoted. If a translator truly understands how the Hebrew sentences (letters and words) work mechanically, he’ll immediately see that this is God’s “fear,” not our fear. But, as you just saw, “fear” doesn’t mean fear at all. It means the emotional stirrings of the gut. So, one could read it as such: “God’s emotional stirrings are the beginning of wisdom…”
Let’s think about that for a second. It’s saying that if we connect with God emotionally, that’s the beginning of wisdom. And it’s even indicating where in your body you’ll feel this. It indicates the gut as to where the emotional stirrings are. So, when we start accessing our painful emotions and learning to love them unconditionally without trying to suppress them with sinful behavior, they’ll integrate/resolve. And when that happens, we start to connect with God much more strongly. We connect with His emotions through the resolving of our own emotions. Emotions are one step above the spiritual realm (our spirit self). Ever since I was 16 and God dropped all of my shame, I understood that God speaks to me through my emotions. And if my emotions were dysfunctional, I would misunderstand Him. I didn’t know they were still dysfunctional to some degree back then, though.
The rest of the verse says: “…and knowledge of the LORD is understanding.” Knowledge, to an Ancient Hebrew comes from the word “Know.” If one “knows” someone else in Ancient Hebrew, it means they know them intimately. Not sexually, necessarily, but intimately. When Adam and Eve had sex the first time, it said he “knew” her, and it meant sex. However, on a deeper level, what it was actually talking about is the emotional connection that sex represent–being “inside” of someone else. Being intimately connected with their emotions, and opening up your emotions so that they can be intimately connected with them, too. In other words, God is saying that if we “know” Him intimately by experientially going down through our emotions to connect with His emotions, we will truly understand Him, because we’ll come into alignment with Him and His emotions.
Did you ever in your life expect that that’s what The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom meant? Have you ever been taught that? I was never taught that until I saw Jeff Benner explain it. And as I go through The Presence Process, I get to experience it first hand.
Does that better explain how up-to-date information in regard to translation can be vital in our understanding the texts of the Bible?
9c) I get what you are trying to say.
Thanks for not taking that statement offensively. It’s hard to communicate with someone if they have a different set of information than you do. It’s not meant condescendingly. We just know different things and have differing views, so it makes it difficult to communicate. That’s why I rarely get on forums online anymore. When they ask me what I believe, or why, I have to explain so much that it takes up tons of my time. And often, people still don’t quite understand what I mean, because the concepts don’t fit into their way of seeing things. I found it pointless eventually. Also, it used to trigger my pride and I’d get upset. I had to stop eventually a few years ago so I wouldn’t feed my pride. I hated it.
9d) Many multi-linguists disagree with you.
Good. That means I’m doing something right. lol And this is why I say, if you’re interested in learning what I’m talking about, check out Jeff Benner’s stuff, and check out Hope Beyond Hell and At the End of the Ages. At the End of the Ages has better proof of what hell is for, but deals with translation a little. Hope Beyond Hell does a better job at dealing with translation before it goes into its exposition on hell and our misunderstandings. The point is just for you to see the difficulties in translation and how we misunderstand so easily and so much. Jeff Benner’s stuff can be taken in little chunks, though, so it’s easier to learn that way.
I learned eventually that just because the majority believes something doesn’t mean it’s right. And I was surprised how often I found that the masses were wrong. The Pharisees were the majority back in Jesus’ day and look where that got them. Today, with science and our massive leaps in intellect, we think we’re so much more sure of what we know. And sometimes, that’s very true. But we still miss so much in our pride. That is why I keep humbly seeking God and my authentic self. The Practice of the Presence of God by Brother Lawrence is an awesome book to show a person what it’s like to be fully connected with God, or at least darn near “fully” connect. Brother Lawrence said that he learned so much more quickly from God than he ever could from books. And the other monks around him were always astounded by his insights as a result of this. He could always cut through to the heart of the matter. That book is best if one gets the version with all five (sometimes six) sections (the Eulogy, the Life of, the Letters, the Conversations, and the Maxims).
9e) Yes, knew that too [in reference to eternal meaning age-abiding]
You’re way ahead of most Christians then. I’ll PM you real quick to ask about your beliefs changing after you discovered this. I don’t care to discuss it in this monumentally long post or thread.
Thanks for the discussion. I’ve spent way too much time on this, though, so I think I’ll retire from the conversation now. Thanks for being very civil and respectful. People here, so far, have been more civil than most of the forums I was on a few years ago. Oh, and sorry for the long posts. I’m a writer, so I sometimes tend to get long-winded when trying to explain things.
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