Alpha Omega First Last

Participant

Hi Sscott,
There is none before and none after God in anything.
There is none before and none after the Son under God in terms of creation.

December 25, 2006 at 12:28 am#35173

sscott

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 24 2006,18:06)

Hi Sscott,
There is none before and none after God in anything.
There is none before and none after the Son under God in terms of creation.

so who do you think is saying rev 1:11?

December 25, 2006 at 2:19 am#35176

Participant

Quote (sscott @ Dec. 25 2006,00:28)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 24 2006,18:06)

Hi Sscott,
There is none before and none after God in anything.
There is none before and none after the Son under God in terms of creation.

so who do you think is saying rev 1:11?

Hi Sscott,
I would be speculating.
All I can say with certainty is that it is some being with a loud voice like a trumpet.

December 25, 2006 at 2:21 am#35177

942767

Participant

Hi sscott:

I know you addressed Nick, but if I may say that according to JFB commentary on crosswalk.com study tools, the oldest manuscripts omit the clause: “I am Alpha and Omega, the First and the Last; and” for Rev. 1:11.

The NIV does not read this way. I hope this helps.

December 25, 2006 at 2:53 am#35179

sscott

Participant

Quote (942767 @ Dec. 25 2006,02:21)

Hi sscott:

The NIV does not read this way. I hope this helps.

Thanks. I just went and looked it up there.

I read this as well:

Revelation 1:11

Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last…
These characters, which are repeated here, (See Gill on Revelation 1:8); are left out in the Alexandrian copy, the Complutensian edition, the Vulgate Latin, Syriac, and Ethiopic versions; but are very fitly retained, to point out the person that speaks; to express his dignity, deity, and eternity; to excite the attention of John, and to give weight to what he said

What text was this verse found in?

December 25, 2006 at 4:18 am#35180

Participant

Thanks sscott,
It does make you wonder. There was only one original version and these words were either added, or left out, and it would be great to see the original. That is why Eusebius, who is the only known and reported witness to an original copy of Matthew should not be ignored in his report on Matt 28.19

December 26, 2006 at 9:38 pm#35289

http://www.scionofzion.com/revelation_1_11.htm

Participant

Here is the proof. Found on the net.

Revelation 1:11

(KJV) Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

NKJV
saying, *”I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last,” and, “What you see, write in a book and send it to the seven churches *which are in Asia: to Ephesus, to Smyrna, to Pergamos, to Thyatira, to Sardis, to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea.”

YLT
I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last;' and, `What thou dost see, write in a scroll, and send to the seven assemblies that [are] in Asia; to Ephesus, and to Smyrna, and to Pergamos, and to Thyatira, and to Sardis, and to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea.'

Websters
Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send [it] to the seven churches which are in Asia; to Ephesus, and to Smyrna, and to Pergamos, and to Thyatira, and to Sardis, and to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea.

(NIV) which said: “Write on a scroll what you see and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia and Laodicea.”

(NAB – Roman Catholic) – which said: “Write on a scroll what you now see and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia and Laodicea.”

(NWT – Jehovah’s Witness) – saying: “What you see write in a scroll and send it to the seven congregations in Ephesus and in Smyrna and in Pergamum and in Thyatira and in Sardis and in Philadelphia and in Laodicea.

(NASB) – saying, “Write in a book what you see, and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus and to Smyrna and to Pergamum and to Thyatira and to Sardis and to Philadelphia and to Laodicea.”

(ESV) – saying, “Write what you see in a book and send it to the seven churches, to Ephesus and to Smyrna and to Pergamum and to Thyatira and to Sardis and to Philadelphia and to Laodicea.”

(WE – Worldwide English New Testament) – The voice said, `Write what you see in a book. Send it to the seven churches in the cities of Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia, and Laodicea.'

(RSV) – saying, “Write what you see in a book and send it to the seven churches, to Ephesus and to Smyrna and to Per'gamum and to Thyati'ra and to Sardis and to Philadelphia and to La-odice'a.”

Effect
I want you to notice something interesting, go back and read the verse in the NIV and NAB. Except for the word “now” in the NAB, the rendering is identical. How’s that for collusion with Catholicism? The highlighted section in the Textus Receptus Greek is the part which is left out of the modern versions undergirded by the Westcott-Hort Alexandiran Text of 1881. In the Greek NT of the United Bible Societies which I have in my possession, there is not even a notation as to why this was omitted. This section is omitted in the Sinaiticus and is completely omitted in the Vaticanus, in fact, the entire book of Revelation is omitted in the Vaticanus. After all, if your church was labeled the Great Whore in that book and the leader of that church called the Antichrist, wouldn’t you want to leave it out too?

The part which is left out of Revelation 1:11 witnesses to the divinity of the Lord Jesus Christ plus it shows His eternality. Gnostic influence disbelieves the reality of eternal life so here too they chopped up another divine title of the Lord Jesus in an attempt to make Him just a mere man. This portion of Scripture shows that everything begins with the Lord Jesus Christ and ends with Him.

In fact, the Hebrew manuscript which underlies the King James Version is the 1525 Bomberg Edition of the Masoretic text also known as the Ben Chayyim text. That manuscript witnesses harmony with Revelation 1:11 in Micah 5:2.

(Micah 5:2 KJV) But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.

But notice how the Hebrew text in the modern versions witness to the eternality of the Lord Jesus. This is because in 1937 Rudolph Kittel changed the Hebrew text from the Ben Chayyim Text to the corrupted Ben Asher Text which they based on the Leningrad Manuscript dated 1008 AD (Older is better error). The NIV, NASV, and the NKJV use this corrupted Hebrew text and therefore differs from the reading in the KJB. In 1967/77 there was a revision of Kittel’s Biblia Hebraica which became known as the Biblia Hebraica Stuttgartensia text. This new revision is used in the modern versions such as the NIV and NASV and others.

Corrupted Manuscripts
This verse is corrupted in the following manuscripts:
Aleph 01 – Sinaiticus – Fourth century
A 02 – Alexandrinus – Fifth century
C 04 – Ephraemi Rescriptus – Fifth century

There are basically to sources for all bible translatons.

The Byzantine text-type and the Alexandrian type.

The following is from Wikipedia.com
Most textual critics of the New Testament favor the Alexandrian text-type as the best representative of the autographs for many reasons. One reason is that Alexandrian manuscripts are the oldest we have found, and some of the earliest church fathers used readings found in the Alexandrian text. Another is that often the Alexandrian reading is the only one that can explain the origin of all the variant readings found in other text-types.
Nevertheless, there are some dissenting voices to this general consensus. A few textual critics, especially those in France, argue that the Western text-type, an old text from which the Old Latin versions of the New Testament are derived, is more original.
In the United States, some critics have a dissenting view that prefers the Byzantine text-type. They assert that Egypt, almost alone, offers optimal climatic conditions favoring preservation of ancient manuscripts. Thus, the papyri used in the east (Asia Minor and Greece) would not have survived due to the unfavorable climatic conditions. The argument is that the much greater number of Byzantine manuscripts indicate a superior claim to being an accurate copy from the autograph. The Byzantine text is also the one found in modern Greek Orthodox editions, though this might simply be a matter of not wanting to break with tradition.
Some of those arguing in favor of Byzantine priority further assert that the Alexandrian church was dominated by the gnostics who generally had either docetic views of Jesus, or considered his life to just be an allegory that was not based on facts. Alexandrian proponents counter that the Byzantine church was dominated by Arianism around the time that we first see evidence of the Byzantine text emerging. However most scholars generally agree that there is no evidence of systematic theological alteration in any of the text types.

KJV and NKJV are the only modern translations using the Textus Receptus Greek text. All the others (NASB, NIV, etc) use the Westcott-Hort or Alexandrian texts. After studying these a bit (which we’ll get to), it becomes apparent they’ve all been edited for theological reasons; the influence of early Gnostic heresy is unmistakable in Westcott-Hort’s text.

2.1.3 Gnostic Influence — Westcott and Hort
Early in church history a heretical group sprang up called the Gnostics, accepting the Greek idea of dualism between spirit and matter. [5] All matter in Gnostic teaching was evil; since all matter is evil, Jesus really didn’t have a physical body and no physical resurrection occurred. The Gnostics also believed they had special knowledge, leading to spiri
tual elitism in the early church.
Westcott and Hort edited the original Greek as they compiled their edition, but as we shall see, both were heavily influenced by Gnostic philosophy. These Greek texts are usually footnoted in your Bible as “the oldest and best manuscripts”. Yes, they’re the oldest, but are they the best? Westcott and Hort had strange theological views — do we trust them with God’s Word? Consider the words of Westcott and Hort themselves.
But the book which has engaged me most is Darwin … My feeling is strong that the theory is unanswerable. [6]
No one now I suppose holds that the first three chapters of Genesis, for example, give a literal history–I could never understand how anyone reading them with open eyes could think they did. [7]
Christians are themselves in a true sense “Christs”. [8]
I am inclined to think that no such state as Eden (I mean the popular notion) ever existed, and that Adam’s fall in no degree differed from the fall of each of his descendents. [9]
These are their views. They’re entitled to them, of course, but do they agree with your Bible reading? In light of John’s warning about Gnostic heresy, can we trust these men to compile an accurate Greek text? As we’ll see in the examples, they allowed their un-orthodox views to influence their compilation of the Holy Scriptures — in some ways that simply make no sense

http://www.dyeager.org/articles/bibletranslations.php

Having said all this. Jesus is still the Alpha and Omega.

All of the transators agree and attest to this fact…

Rev 22:12,13

RSV
“Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense, to repay every one for what he has done.
I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.”

KJV
And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward [is] with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

NKJV
And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work.
“I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.”*

NLT
“See, I am coming soon, and my reward is with me, to repay all according to their deeds.
I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.”

NIV
“Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done.
I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.

ESV
Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense with me, to repay everyone for what he has done.
“I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.”

NASB
Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward {is} with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done.
“I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.”

ASV
Behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to render to each man according as his work is.
I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.

YLT
And lo, I come quickly, and my reward [is] with me, to render to each as his work shall be;
I am the Alpha and the Omega — the Beginning and End — the First and the Last.

Darby
Behold, I come quickly, and my reward with me, to render to every one as his work shall be.
*I* [am] the Alpha and the Omega, [the] first and [the] last, the beginning and the end.

Websters
And behold, I come quickly; and my reward [is] with me, to give to every man according as his work shall be.
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

HNV
“Behold, I come quickly. My reward is with me, to repay to each man according to his work.
I am the Alef and the Tav, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.

Jesus is the the Alpha and Omega the Almighty!

December 26, 2006 at 9:51 pm#35292

Participant

Hi W,
Know the Son.
In him is life.

December 26, 2006 at 11:44 pm#35321

Participant

Hello.

I don't know why people persist with this nonsense that Jesus is not called the true God or the Almighty when 1John 5:20 and Revelation 1:8 clearly give him these titles.

Not to mention the various passages speaking of Yahweh from the Tanakh applied directly to Jesus in the New Testament (e.g. Is. 6:9-10; Joel 2:32).

What sense does it make to assert that the Father alone is God,
Matt 28:18,19
And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Jesus is his Son, and the Holy Spirit is how God operates in the Church, therefore that is why they are all mentioned in Matthew 28:19?

Perhaps those on this forum have never read the text in Greek, or maybe you have and are just hoping that your audience hasn't.

But there is one name (onoma) and the definite article (tou) appears before each person, showing a definite distinction. In other words, the Spirit of God simply being the same as the Father doesn't wash. :blues:

December 27, 2006 at 1:35 am#35338

Participant

Hi W,
So the Spirit is not the finger of God?
Is your finger disconnected from you??

December 27, 2006 at 11:35 pm#35436

Participant

Quote

Hi W,
So the Spirit is not the finger of God?
Is your finger disconnected from you??

Exaclty my point NH the Spirit of God is one with God. Is your foot the same as you hand. Niether is the Finger the same as the head.

But they all make up that one Godhead, Father ,Son and Holy Ghost.

In him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily!

December 28, 2006 at 4:06 am#35451

Participant

For some reason, certain scholars hold that Rev 1:11 is spurious.

It does not appear in Revised Standard, New English, Jerusalem Bible, New American Bible, Challenor-Douay Version.

Revelation 21:6, 7 indicates that Christians who are spiritual conquerors are to be ‘sons’ of the one known as the Alpha and the Omega. That is never said of the relationship of spirit-anointed Christians to Jesus Christ. Jesus spoke of them as his ‘brothers.’ (Heb. 2:11; Matt. 12:50; 25:40) But those ‘brothers’ of Jesus are referred to as “sons of God.” (Gal. 3:26; 4:6)

So this would contradict the rest of the Bible, if it was taken that Jesus was the alpha and omega of Rev 1:11.

Again, this indicates that the alpha and omega spoken of are God Almighty, not Jesus.

It's clear that some Bibles want this to be Jesus. At Revelation 22:12, TEV inserts the name Jesus, so the reference to Alpha and Omega in verse 13 is made to appear to apply to him. But the name Jesus does not appear there in Greek, and other translations do not include it.

At Revelation 22:13, the Alpha and Omega is also said to be “the first and the last,” which expression is applied to Jesus at Revelation 1:17, 18. Similarly, the expression “apostle” is applied both to Jesus Christ and to certain ones of his followers. But that does not prove that they are the same person or are of equal rank, does it? (Heb. 3:1)

Nope.

When looking at this symbolic book, it's important to remember that a number of different ones are invovled. GOD gave the revelation to JESUS who used his angel (messenger) to present it in signs to JOHN.

Sometimes, John himself is speaking. Sometimes, Jesus. Sometimes God.

If it's not made clear who is speaking, I would think it is better to consult the rest of scripture.

December 28, 2006 at 7:34 am#35463

Participant

Quote

For some reason, certain scholars hold that Rev 1:11 is spurious.

It does not appear in Revised Standard, New English, Jerusalem Bible, New American Bible, Challenor-Douay Version.

So this would contradict the rest of the Bible, if it was taken that Jesus was the alpha and omega of Rev 1:11.

Again, this indicates that the alpha and omega spoken of are God Almighty, not Jesus.

Nope.

Sometimes, John himself is speaking. Sometimes, Jesus. Sometimes God.

If it's not made clear who is speaking, I would think it is better to consult the rest of scripture.

David as I said in my post, that most of the newer translations took the words “the Alpha and Omega” out of vs 11.

In my post it explains the two sources of documents.

But even if it were true, it shouldnt be there, which I believe by the older translations that it should because it was found in the majority of the most ancient copies, we still know that Jesus is the Alpha and Omega.

Rev 22:12,13
And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

Rev 1:8
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

December 28, 2006 at 7:45 am#35465

Participant

Quote

Rev 22:12,13
And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

Rev 1:8
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

I'm sorry. Why do you know that these scriptures are referring to Jesus and not Jehovah, the Almighty?

December 28, 2006 at 7:48 am#35466

Participant

The expression, “Look! I am coming quickly,” in verse 12, does not require that these aforementioned verses apply to Jesus, inasmuch as God also speaks of himself as “coming” to execute judgment. (Compare Isa 26:21.) Malachi 3:1-6 speaks of a joint coming for judgment on the part of Jehovah and his “messenger of the covenant.”

December 28, 2006 at 7:53 am#35467

Participant

The additional occurrence of this phrase (Alpha and Omega) in the King James rendering of Revelation 1:11, does not receive support from some of the oldest Greek manuscripts, including the Alexandrine, Sinaitic, and Codex Ephraemi rescriptus. It is, therefore, omitted in many modern translations.

The first verse of Revelation shows that the revelation was given originally by God and through Jesus Christ, hence the one speaking (through an angelic representative) at times is God himself, and at other times it is Christ Jesus. (Re 22:8)

Thus Revelation 1:8 (RS) says: “‘I am the Alpha and the Omega,’ says the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.” Although the preceding verse speaks of Christ Jesus, it is clear that in verse 8 the application of the title is to “the Almighty” God.

About 42 other times in the Bible the title “Almighty” is used with reference to the Father, God. It is nowhere else used with reference to Jesus.
This indicates that this verse is speaking of the Father.

In this regard Barnes’ Notes on the New Testament (1974) observes: “It cannot be absolutely certain that the writer meant to refer to the Lord Jesus specifically here . . . There is no real incongruity in supposing, also, that the writer here meant to refer to God as such.”

The title occurs again at Revelation 21:6, and the following verse identifies the speaker by saying: “Anyone conquering will inherit these things, and I shall be his God and he will be my son.” Inasmuch as Jesus referred to those who are joint heirs with him in his Kingdom as “brothers,” not “sons,” the speaker must be Jesus’ heavenly Father, Jehovah God.—Mt 25:40; compare Heb 2:10-12.

The final occurrence of the title is at Revelation 22:13, which states: “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.” It is evident that a number of persons are represented as speaking in this chapter of Revelation.
–Verses 8 and 9 show that the angel spoke to John,
–verse 16 obviously applies to Jesus,
–the first part of verse 17 is credited to “the spirit and the bride,”
–and the one speaking in the latter part of verse 20 is manifestly John himself.
“The Alpha and the Omega” of verses 12-15, therefore, may properly be identified as the same one who bears the title in the other two occurrences: Jehovah God.
As I said before:
“The expression, “Look! I am coming quickly,” in verse 12, does not require that these aforementioned verses apply to Jesus, inasmuch as God also speaks of himself as “coming” to execute judgment. (Compare Isa 26:21.) Malachi 3:1-6 speaks of a joint coming for judgment on the part of Jehovah and his “messenger of the covenant.””

The title “the Alpha and the Omega” carries the same thought as “the first and the last” and “the beginning and the end” when these terms are used with reference to Jehovah. Before him there was no Almighty God, and there will be none after him. He will bring to a successful conclusion the issue over Godship, forever vindicated as the one and only Almighty God.
ISAIAH 44:6
““This is what Jehovah has said, the King of Israel and the Repurchaser of him, Jehovah of armies, ‘I am the first and I am the last, and besides me there is no God.”

December 28, 2006 at 7:55 am#35468

Participant

Quote

David

Is Jesus your Father? Why not?

Isa 9:6
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

The title Father is just that a title. But what does Father mean?

An authority figure, a guide, a comforter, a provider, a disciplinary, a teacher, an example, a protector.

And much more I am sure. But can not all these attributes be applied to the Son?

Is he not all of the above?

Everyone gets hung up with the title “Father”. But is it not true that the Father does everything with and by the Son?

I Cor 4:15
For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet [have ye] not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel

Paul the Apostle can be a Father[pater same title used for God] in the Spirit to those whom he had begotten in the Faith, then why cant Jesus be a Father to many Sons.???

December 28, 2006 at 7:56 am#35469

Participant

Quote

Quote
Rev 22:12,13
And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

Rev 1:8
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

I'm sorry. Why do you know that these scriptures are referring to Jesus and not Jehovah, the Almighty?

David

Who is comming quickly?

December 28, 2006 at 8:01 am#35470