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Quote the question is Who is the Alpha and Omega mentioned In Revelations? My stand is that The Alpha and the Omega is claimed to be Lord Jesus according to his words in revelations.
1.Revelation 1:8
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.2.Revelation 1:11
Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.3.Revelation 21:6
And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.4.Revelation 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
–SF (Page 1, of his “alpha omega” thread)
I think this is an important topic.
On page 540 of the trinity thread, Is 1:18 stated:
“The 'First and Last', 'Alpha and Omega' verses are the strongest possible proof that Yahshua claimed to be God (YHWH), as this is a title that YHWH exclusively reserves for Himself. “Given that this topic is so important, I think it deserves another thread. I'm going to post 4 posts, each one dealing with the 4 scriptures that Simply Forgiven referenced above. If you could wait for me to post on all four scriptures, that would be appreciated. It won't take long.
I'd like to begin with the most simple one, the one that doesn't belong: Revelation 1:11
REVELATION 1:11
The phrase “I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last” found in the King James Bible and a few others, is NOT found in some of the oldest Greek manuscripts, such as the Alexandrine, Sinaitic, and Codex Ephraemi rescriptus.
Most modern versions of the Bible don’t include the phrase “I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last” in Revelation 1:11.
Here is a list of some Bibles that DON'T have those words:
New International Version (and UK version)
American Standard Version
New American Standard Version
The Message Version
New Living Translation
English Standard Version
New English
Basic English Bible
American Standard Version
Darby Translations
Holman Christian Standard Bible
New International Reader’s Version
Worldwide English (New Testament)
Today’s New International Version
Contemporary English Version
New World Translation
Jerusalem Bible
New American Bible
Douay-Rheims Bible (and Challenor’s)
Weymouth NTIt also doesn’t occur in some of the older Bibles, such as The Latin Vulgate.
The words in question ARE FOUND in the King James Versions, the Webster Bible, and the Young Literal Translation, and I’m sure there must be others, but I only checked the 25 that were the easiest to find for myself.
I believe that the words: “Alpha and Omega, the first and the last” found in the King James Version is at the least, extremely questionable, and therefore should not be used as any sort of evidence or certainly not of any sort of 'strongest possible proof' of anything.
Moving on….
David.
REVELATION 1:8
“The Lord God says, ‘I am the Alpha and the Omega, the One who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty!’” (The New American Bible)While Jesus Christ is referred to in the previous verse as “coming with the clouds,” the words of Revelation 1:8 indicate that it is “the Lord God,” “the Almighty” who is speaking. In Scripture, only the Father is spoken of as “the Lord God” and as “Almighty.”
As well, just a few verses before, God is shown to be separate from Jesus and is referred to as “the one who is and who was and who is coming.” (Rev 1:5)
If we have a phrase or a title that is repeatedly applied numerous times to a certain one, and we don’t find this word used in connection with anyone else by name, what are we to think if we come across another instance of that word or phrase where it isn’t absolutely clear who is being spoken of?
The burden of proof would have to rest on anyone insisting case was different from all the rest.
“ALMIGHTY”:
Shaddai (Heb. “Almighty”) and Pantokrator (Gk. “Almighty”) are repeatedly used with reference to Jehovah, the Father. (Ex 6:3; 2 Cor 6:18; Rev 19:6, Rev 4:8, etc) Neither of these expressions are ever applied to “Jesus” or “Christ.” Yet, the word “almighty” is applied to Jehovah 42 other times, from the very first occurrence of that word to the very last occurrence:
GENESIS 17:1
“When Abram got to be ninety-nine years old, then Jehovah appeared to Abram and said to him: “I am God Almighty. . . ..”
REVELATION 21:22 (King James Version)
“And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty AND Lamb ARE the temple of it.” (It’s clear in this verse that the Lamb, [Jesus] is distinguished and separate from the “Almighty” here. Both of them “are” spoken of. It does not say that the Almighty and Jesus “is,” but uses the plural: “are.”)
Since “Jehovah” is specifically and without question called “God” a thousand times in scripture, and many more without the actual use of his name, the “burden of proof” clearly rests on anyone who wants to prove that the words “God Almighty” refers to anyone but Jehovah.“LORD GOD”:
The words “Lord God” never occur with reference to “Jesus,” although it does occur about 80 times with reference to Jesus’ Father, Jehovah. In all instances where the phrase occurs in the Greek scriptures, it is in reference to Jehovah, the God and Father of our Lord Jesus. (Luke 1:32; 1 Peter 3:10-15; Revelation 11:17,19; 15:3; 16:7; 18:8; 21:11; 22:6)
The phrase “the Lord God” was used as a Greek substitute for the expression “Jehovah God”, that appears many times in the Old Testament. The expression “Lord God” occurs in many Bibles roughly 80 times. It never occurs with reference to the name “Jesus.” In fact, in the original languages, the expression found about 80 times is “Jehovah God.” The substitution of the word “Lord” and the removal of God’s name has confused many as to who this one is.
Likewise, with the phrases “the Lord our God” and “the Lord your God”: These phrases are always used in reference to Yahweh, the God and Father of our Lord Jesus. — Matthew 4:7 (Deuteronomy 6:16); Matthew 4:10 (Deuteronomy 6:13; 10:20); Matthew 22:37 (Deuteronomy 6:5); Mark 12:29 (Deuteronomy 6:4); etc.
Since the words “Lord God” are definitely used with reference to Jehovah many times and nowhere specifically clearly used with reference to “Jesus,” the burden of proof rests on those who wish to prove that this scripture refers to anyone other than Jehovah.“THE ONE WHO IS AND WHO WAS AND WHO IS TO COME”
As well, this verse (1:8) is speaking of “the One who is and who was and who is to come.” Just a couple verses before, at Revelation 1:4,5, we see greetings are given from the one “who is, and who was, and who is to come,” “and from Jesus Christ.” (NIV)
In verse 5 it’s obvious that the one “who is, and who was, and who is to come” is not Jesus Christ, because greetings are given from him “AND from Jesus Christ. So, when the phrase “the one who is and who was and who is to come” occurs 3 verses later, it would seem that this again establishes that we are speaking of someone other than Jesus. Or at the very least, it’s not at all clear that it’s speaking of Jesus.
Moreover, in the very next verse, the apostle John, says: “I . . . came to be in the isle that is called Patmos for speaking about God and bearing witness to Jesus.” (Rev. 1:9) So John understood God to be separate and distinct from Jesus.
Also, compare Revelation 4:8 where it says: “Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God Almighty, who was, and is, and is to come.” (NIV) We notice the phrase “holy, holy, holy” occurs only one other time in the Bible at Isaiah 6:3, and there it is referring to “Jehovah.” (Compare Rev 11:17)So, looking at Rev 1:8, if we were to just look at it by itself, all indications are that it refers to God, the Almighty.
HOWEVER, as I'm sure you'll point out, the verse before was speaking of Jesus coming on the clouds.
WE HAVE TO UNDERSTAND HOW THIS WAS PRESENTED.
REVELATION 1:1,2
1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
1:2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.So we have John writing down what was signified to him by the angel.
The angel was telling John what Jesus told him to tell John.
But it was Jesus who told the angel to tell John that.
And to add the confusion, it was God who told Jesus, who told the angel, who told John, who told us….Sometimes John is talking. (1:4; 1:9)
Sometimes it's John talking about Jesus or God.
Sometimes it's God talking (or John telling us what the angel told him Jesus said that God said.)
Sometimes it's the angel himself talking (or telling us what Jesus told him to signify to John)We have to remember that this isn't just one person talking. It is someone telling us what someone told someone to tell someone to tell them to say.
Looking at the verse in question specifically, there is strong evidence and everything indicates it is Jehovah God speaking. He is the Alpha and Omega in question here.
Just because it was speaking of Jesus in the verse before is not strong enough evidence to alter the other evidence.david
Before moving on to Rev 21:6, I think we should also include Rev 1:17,18. This scripture (Rev 1:17,18) is referring to Jesus, as the first and the last in a specific way. But just because Jesus is called the first and the last in a specific way, does not mean that he is the Father, who is the first and the last in a very different way. It would be a title confusion trick to suggest so.
In what way is Jehovah God the Father the first and last?
In what way is Jesus the first and last?First, the easy one, the one everyone understands:
ISAIAH 44:6
““This is what Jehovah has said, the King of Israel and the Repurchaser of him, Jehovah of armies, ‘I am the first and I am the last, and besides me there is no God.”
ISAIAH 48:12
““Listen to me, O Jacob, and you Israel my called one. I am the same One. I am the first. Moreover, I am the last.”
ISAIAH 41:4
“Who has been active and has done [this], calling out the generations from the start? “I, Jehovah, the First One; and with the last ones I am the same.””
ISAIAH 46:4
“Even to [one’s] old age I am the same One; and to [one’s] gray-headedness I myself shall keep bearing up . . .” (Compare Mal 3:6)Jehovah, as the Creator, and king of eternity, will always be and has always been. And no matter what time, or who is observing, he is the same one. It is in this sense of his always existing and not changing that he is the first and also the last.
We know that Jehovah God, the Almighty, the king of Eternity is the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last– in that he has always existed, will always exist.
But, is this why Jesus is called ‘the first and the last’? What does the context show?
REVELATION 1:17-18
“And when I saw him [referring to Jesus], I fell as dead at his feet. And he laid his right hand upon me and said: “Do not be fearful. I am the First [“First,” Alexandrian Manuscript, “Firstborn.”] and the Last, and the living one; and I became dead, but, look! I am living forever and ever, and I have the keys of death and of Hádes.”We remember that in Rev 1:5, Jesus was called “the firstborn from the dead.” Here, we notice that Jesus being the “first and last” is connected to him being the living one who became dead, and him now having the keys of death and hades.
In what way does the rest of the Bible and the context of this scripture demonstrate that Jesus is the “FIRST”?
REVELATION 1:5
“and from Jesus Christ, “the Faithful Witness,” “The FIRSTBORN FROM THE DEAD,”. . . “
ACTS 26:23
“Christ was to suffer and, as the FIRST to be RESURRECTED FROM THE DEAD, . . .”“
1 CORINTHIANS 15:20
“Christ has been RAISE UP FROM THE DEAD, THE FIRSTFRUITS of those who have fallen asleep [in death].”
COLOSSIANS 1:18
“he is the head of the body, the congregation. He is the BEGINNING, THE FIRSTBORN FROM THE DEAD, that he might become the one who is FIRST in all things;”(Obviously, he wasn't the first to be resurrected from the dead, so this must be referring to him being the first to be resurrected in a specific way. Jesus was the first to be resurrected of those who would not have to die again. Also, he was the first to be raised as a spirit person.–1 Peter 3:18)
CONTEXT:
1. He is described, even in the same chapter of revelation (1:5), as being the first in that he was the first to be resurrected to immortal spirit life. (Col 1:18)
2. Looking at the context, the statement in question continues to say that he is the living one who “BECAME DEAD, BUT LOOK! I AM LIVING FOREVER AND EVER.” Based on the context and these other scriptures, we have to believe that Jesus is the “first” in this respect, in that he “became dead, but look” he is the “firstborn from the dead,” (Rev 1:5; Col 1:18) the “first to be resurrected from the dead” (Acts 26:23) to immortal spirit life–living “forever and ever” as the scripture says.
3. Further, we note something else at Revelation 2:8, where we are again told Jesus was the first and the last. Notice what it says and what is again connected to being first and last:
“These are the things that he says, ‘the First and the Last,’ who became dead and came to life [again],” (REVELATION 2:8)It seems that with reference to Jesus being the first (and the last) this is connected with his resurrection. Several scriptures indicate that he was the “first” to be resurrected from the dead to immortal spirit life. (Rev 1:5; Acts 26:23; 1 Cor 15:20; Col 1:18)
How is he the “LAST”?
That too is covered in the rest of the statement. It says that he had been “given the keys of death and of hades.” The scriptures not only explain that Jesus was the first to be resurrected by Jehovah to immortal spirit life, but also that he was the “last” that Jehovah would personally resurrect this way. As it says, Jesus has been given the keys of death and hades, so if someone is locked in death, as it were, Jesus has been given the power to open that door, to resurrect them.
JOHN 5:21
“For just as the Father raises the dead up and makes them alive, so the Son also makes those alive whom he wants to.”
JOHN 6:40
“For this is the will of my Father, that everyone that beholds the Son and exercises faith in him should have everlasting life, and I will resurrect him at the last day.””
JOHN 11:25
“Jesus said to her: “I am the resurrection and the life. He that exercises faith in me, even though he dies, will come to life;”
ACTS 17:31
“Because he has set a day in which he purposes to judge the inhabited earth in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed, and he has furnished a guarantee to all men in that he has resurrected him from the dead.”” (See also Dan 7:13,14; 2 Tim 4:1,2)It seems that Jehovah has entrusted both the power of judging and resurrecting to Jesus. As Revelation 1:17,18 says, Jesus now has the keys of death and hades. He was the “last” to be resurrected by Jehovah, the responsibility of resurrecting now being given to Jesus. For all others of humanity, Jesus himself is “the resurrection and the life.” (John 11:25)
Jesus was the first to be resurrected by Jehovah to immortal spirit life and he was also the last to be resurrected by Jehovah, since Jehovah has entrusted him with the power of judging and resurrecting.
Jesus is the first and the last in a very different way from Jehovah. The context is clear evidence of this.
REVELATION 21:6-7
“And he said to me: “They have come to pass! I am the Aĺpha and the O·méga, the beginning and the end. To anyone thirsting I will give from the fountain of the water of life free. Anyone conquering will inherit these things, and I shall be his God and he will be my son.”Who is the speaker? Notice verse 7. Jesus always referred to those who would inherit these things, (those who are joint heirs with him in his Kingdom) as “brothers,” not “sons.” The speaker must be Jesus’ heavenly Father, Jehovah God.
MATTHEW 25:40
“And in reply the king will say to them, ‘Truly I say to YOU, To the extent that YOU did it to one of the least of these my brothers, YOU did it to me.’” (Compare Mat 12:50)
HEBREWS 2:10-12
“For it was fitting for the one for whose sake all things are and through whom all things are, in bringing many sons to glory, to make the Chief Agent of their salvation perfect through sufferings. For both he who is sanctifying and those who are being sanctified all [stem] from one, and for this cause he is not ashamed to call them “brothers,” as he says: “I will declare your name to my brothers; in the middle of [the] congregation I will praise you with song.””
It is true that Jesus, because of being God’s chief agent of life, is referred to as Eternal Father at Isaiah 9:6. Looking at the Bible, we see that anyone who has followers, or those who exhibit his qualities, is regarded as a father to them. (Mt 5:44, 45; Ro 4:11, 12) In this sense the Devil is spoken of as a father. (Joh 8:44) But of course, “Father” is applied to Jehovah God numerous times, and when we hear “Father” we think of Jehovah, and not of his son.Looking back at Rev 21:6,7, it indicates that Christians who are spiritual conquerors are to be ‘sons’ of the one known as the Alpha and the Omega. That is never said of the relationship of spirit-anointed Christians to Jesus Christ. Jesus spoke of them as his ‘brothers.’ But those ‘brothers’ of Jesus are referred to as “sons of God.” (Gal. 3:26; 4:6)
So this would seem to contradict other parts of the Bible, if it was taken that Jesus was the Alpha and Omega here.
As well, we have the phrase: “To anyone thirsting I will give from the fountain of the water of life free.”
While Jesus spoke of giving such water (John 4:14; 6:35) Jehovah is spoken of as being the “source of living water.” (Jer 2:13; Ps 36:9)For the sake of completeness, I thought I'd include this:
REVELATION 22:12 (TODAY’S ENGLISH VERSION)
It's clear that some Bibles want this to be Jesus. At Revelation 22:12, TEV inserts the name Jesus, so the reference to Alpha and Omega in verse 13 is made to appear to apply to him. But the name Jesus does not appear there in Greek, and other translations do not include it.And finally, we have this scripture:
REVELATION 22:12-13
““‘Look! I am coming quickly, and the reward I give is with me, to render to each one as his work is. I am the Aĺpha and the O·méga, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.”It is evident that a number of persons are represented as speaking in this chapter of Revelation.
–in verses 8 we have John talking.
–In verse 9, we have the angel speaking to John.
–verse 16 obviously applies to “Jesus,”
–the first part of verse 17 is credited to “the spirit and the bride,”
–and the one speaking in the latter part of verse 20 is manifestly John himself.
“The Alpha and the Omega” of verses 12-15 may properly be identified as the same one who bears the title in the other two occurrences.I AM COMING QUICKLY
“The expression, “Look! I am coming quickly,” in verse 12, does not require that these aforementioned verses apply to Jesus, inasmuch as God also speaks of himself as “coming” to execute judgment. (Compare Isa 26:21) Malachi 3:1-6 speaks of a joint coming for judgment on the part of Jehovah and his “messenger of the covenant.””
Jehovah, the God and Father of Jesus, comes to judge the world, not only with and by means of Jesus, but also the holy ones.–Malachi 3:1-6; Psalm 96:13; 98:9; Daniel 7:18,22; Isaiah 40:10,11; Micah 1:3; Zechariah 14:5; Acts 17:31; 2 Peter 3:7,8; 1 Corinthians 6:2; Psalm 90:4; Jude 1:14,15; Revelation 1:1; 20:4,11-13; 22:6.
Of course, the coming judgment will be expressed by Jehovah God through his Son, for the apostle also says: “This will be in the day when God through Christ Jesus judges the secret things of mankind.” (Rom. 2:5-10,16)
REVELATION 4:8
“And as for the four living creatures, each one of them respectively has six wings; round about and underneath they are full of eyes. And they have no rest day and night as they say: “Holy, holy, holy is Jehovah God, the Almighty, who was and who is and who is coming.””
REVELATION 1:4-5
“John to the seven congregations that are in the [district of] Asia: May YOU have undeserved kindness and peace from “The One who is and who was and who is coming,” and from the seven spirits that are before his throne, and from Jesus Christ, “the Faithful Witness,” “The firstborn from the dead,” and “The Ruler of the kings of the earth.””BUT JEHOVAH IS ALSO CALLED “THE FIRST AND THE LAST”
Can two different beings be called the same thing or be explained with the same words?
Nebuchadrezzar is twice called “king of kings” and so is Jesus. Yet, this in no way means they must be the same person. (Ezek 26:7; Dan 2:37; Rev. 17:14; 19:16)
Nebuchadrezzar was king of kings in a certain respect and Jesus is king of kings to a much greater degree.
Similarly, the expression “apostle” is applied to Jesus and certain ones of his followers. But that does not prove that they are the same person does it? (Heb 3:1)
Jehovah is the first and last in that he is king of eternity and Creator. (Isaiah 44:6) Jesus is the first and last in that he is the “FIRST to be resurrected from the dead” to immortal spirit life (Acts 26:23) and having been given “the keys of death and of hades,” becoming “the resurrection and the life” (John 11:25) Jesus is the LAST to be resurrected by Jehovah himself. (Acts 17:31)Both the beginning of Revelation and the end of Revelation (where two of the scriptures in question are found) seem to be an introducing of all those involved and a “good-bye” of all those involved. The many involved make it a little confusing for some. (Other Bible books are not written that way.)
david
Quote THx for stealing my Thread! –SF
Your welcome SF. I've had these discussions in the 5 or 6 “alpha Omega” threads, but my posts are always lost in the middle and I can never find them. If anything, this is just to simplify things for myself. I was pretty sure I had started a discussion on this already, but I simply can't find it.
Quote (david @ Aug. 22 2010,04:19) And finally, we have this scripture: REVELATION 22:12-13
““‘Look! I am coming quickly, and the reward I give is with me, to render to each one as his work is. I am the Aĺpha and the O·méga, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.”It is evident that a number of persons are represented as speaking in this chapter of Revelation.
–in verses 8 we have John talking.
–In verse 9, we have the angel speaking to John.
–verse 16 obviously applies to “Jesus,”
–the first part of verse 17 is credited to “the spirit and the bride,”
–and the one speaking in the latter part of verse 20 is manifestly John himself.
“The Alpha and the Omega” of verses 12-15 may properly be identified as the same one who bears the title in the other two occurrences.I AM COMING QUICKLY
“The expression, “Look! I am coming quickly,” in verse 12, does not require that these aforementioned verses apply to Jesus, inasmuch as God also speaks of himself as “coming” to execute judgment. (Compare Isa 26:21) Malachi 3:1-6 speaks of a joint coming for judgment on the part of Jehovah and his “messenger of the covenant.””
Jehovah, the God and Father of Jesus, comes to judge the world, not only with and by means of Jesus, but also the holy ones.–Malachi 3:1-6; Psalm 96:13; 98:9; Daniel 7:18,22; Isaiah 40:10,11; Micah 1:3; Zechariah 14:5; Acts 17:31; 2 Peter 3:7,8; 1 Corinthians 6:2; Psalm 90:4; Jude 1:14,15; Revelation 1:1; 20:4,11-13; 22:6.
Of course, the coming judgment will be expressed by Jehovah God through his Son, for the apostle also says: “This will be in the day when God through Christ Jesus judges the secret things of mankind.” (Rom. 2:5-10,16)
REVELATION 4:8
“And as for the four living creatures, each one of them respectively has six wings; round about and underneath they are full of eyes. And they have no rest day and night as they say: “Holy, holy, holy is Jehovah God, the Almighty, who was and who is and who is coming.””
REVELATION 1:4-5
“John to the seven congregations that are in the [district of] Asia: May YOU have undeserved kindness and peace from “The One who is and who was and who is coming,” and from the seven spirits that are before his throne, and from Jesus Christ, “the Faithful Witness,” “The firstborn from the dead,” and “The Ruler of the kings of the earth.””BUT JEHOVAH IS ALSO CALLED “THE FIRST AND THE LAST”
Can two different beings be called the same thing or be explained with the same words?
Nebuchadrezzar is twice called “king of kings” and so is Jesus. Yet, this in no way means they must be the same person. (Ezek 26:7; Dan 2:37; Rev. 17:14; 19:16)
Nebuchadrezzar was king of kings in a certain respect and Jesus is king of kings to a much greater degree.
Similarly, the expression “apostle” is applied to Jesus and certain ones of his followers. But that does not prove that they are the same person does it? (Heb 3:1)
Jehovah is the first and last in that he is king of eternity and Creator. (Isaiah 44:6) Jesus is the first and last in that he is the “FIRST to be resurrected from the dead” to immortal spirit life (Acts 26:23) and having been given “the keys of death and of hades,” becoming “the resurrection and the life” (John 11:25) Jesus is the LAST to be resurrected by Jehovah himself. (Acts 17:31)Both the beginning of Revelation and the end of Revelation (where two of the scriptures in question are found) seem to be an introducing of all those involved and a “good-bye” of all those involved. The many involved make it a little confusing for some. (Other Bible books are not written that way.)
david
I think you forgot the testimony of John saying that Jesus is the one coming quickly,
and the very last statement in Revleations is in reference to not Jesus Christ, not the son of God, but the Lord Jesus.The angel was sent by Jesus,
Jesus was the one giving Tesitmony, but we know it was the Angel in the numerous times that John tried to worship it.I have found Greek text that do include those names written.
I also believe that the youngs literal translation includes those as well, as well as other languages such as spanish.Why is the one book, that was suppose to have nothing added or nothing deleted would have such a problem?
Quote Why is the one book, that was suppose to have nothing added or nothing deleted would have such a problem? For the same reason that Jesus illustrations were meant to be understood by only his followers.
Revelation was written in signs to show Jesus’ slaves [or servants] (and not the world in general) the things that would take place. (Rev 1:1,2) Much like Jesus illustrations, they were not meant to be understood by everyone. (Mat 13:10-12)
In chapter one, verse one, of the book of Revelation, the reader is told that the book is intended to be symbolic.
The Greek word is esemanen, which translates “shown in signs” or “shown by symbols.” Many Bibles (KJ, RSV, NRSV, ASV, NASB, etc.) translate the Greek as “signified,” which you’ll notice has the root word “sign” in it and which can also mean “given in signs” or “the idea conveyed by a sign.”
Perhaps the “signified” of Revelation 1:1 in the King James Version and its successors was influenced initially by the Latin Vulgate's rendering as “significavit.” However, this comes from the same root as Latin “signum,” which means a sign.
Similarly, the Greek “esemanen” is aorist indicative active of “semaino” and means “to show by some sort of sign.” (The New Linguistic and Exegetical Key to the Greek New Testament, by Cleon Rogers Jr. and Cleon Rogers III, page 610)
Clearly then, the point of Revelation 1:1 is that this book describes things “in/by signs.” (New World Translation, Rotherham's Emphasized Bible, etc.)
Similar to Jesus illustrations, the symbols and signs of Revelation were not really meant to be understood by everyone. That was the point.
REVELATION 1:1
“A revelation by Jesus Christ, which God gave him, to show his slaves [NOT ALL HUMANKIND] the things that must shortly take place. And he sent forth his angel and presented [it] in signs through him to his slave John,”In your previous post in reference to 22,
You stated that the one coming quickly is God correct?
and if thats so why is it presented that John's own testimony, expressing that Jesus is the one coming soon.
To come quickly.And the Angel gave reference to Jesus and Jesus alone for he was sent by Jesus.
Yet the Angel for himself told him to worship God.
So we know whom is speaking.
in relations to rev22,
John believed the one who is coming quickly is Jesus,
What say youQuote (SimplyForgiven @ Aug. 22 2010,19:01) In your previous post in reference to 22,
You stated that the one coming quickly is God correct?
and if thats so why is it presented that John's own testimony, expressing that Jesus is the one coming soon.
To come quickly.And the Angel gave reference to Jesus and Jesus alone for he was sent by Jesus.
Yet the Angel for himself told him to worship God.
So we know whom is speaking.
in relations to rev22,
John believed the one who is coming quickly is Jesus,
What say you
Dennison,In Rev 22 the “I” is followed to the end being Jesus, no?
The confusion may come when you compare this to Rev 1:4 when it talks about God being the “one who is, who was, and is to come”.
One is coming quickly and the other is simply “to come”.
The Professor
Quote (davidbfun @ Aug. 22 2010,21:52) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Aug. 22 2010,19:01) In your previous post in reference to 22,
You stated that the one coming quickly is God correct?
and if thats so why is it presented that John's own testimony, expressing that Jesus is the one coming soon.
To come quickly.And the Angel gave reference to Jesus and Jesus alone for he was sent by Jesus.
Yet the Angel for himself told him to worship God.
So we know whom is speaking.
in relations to rev22,
John believed the one who is coming quickly is Jesus,
What say you
Dennison,In Rev 22 the “I” is followed to the end being Jesus, no?
The confusion may come when you compare this to Rev 1:4 when it talks about God being the “one who is, who was, and is to come”.
One is coming quickly and the other is simply “to come”.
The Professor
The logic goes around what John believed.
John Believed that it is Jesus that is coming quickly.
THere is nothing left to discuss.I dont like how all these debates about scriptures lol end up being extra biblical debates.
Its very simple.
John declared it, and thats it.Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Aug. 23 2010,14:38) Quote (davidbfun @ Aug. 22 2010,21:52) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Aug. 22 2010,19:01) In your previous post in reference to 22,
You stated that the one coming quickly is God correct?
and if thats so why is it presented that John's own testimony, expressing that Jesus is the one coming soon.
To come quickly.And the Angel gave reference to Jesus and Jesus alone for he was sent by Jesus.
Yet the Angel for himself told him to worship God.
So we know whom is speaking.
in relations to rev22,
John believed the one who is coming quickly is Jesus,
What say you
Dennison,In Rev 22 the “I” is followed to the end being Jesus, no?
The confusion may come when you compare this to Rev 1:4 when it talks about God being the “one who is, who was, and is to come”.
One is coming quickly and the other is simply “to come”.
The Professor
The logic goes around what John believed.
John Believed that it is Jesus that is coming quickly.
THere is nothing left to discuss.I dont like how all these debates about scriptures lol end up being extra biblical debates.
Its very simple.
John declared it, and thats it.
Amen!Quote (davidbfun @ Aug. 23 2010,10:52) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Aug. 22 2010,19:01) In your previous post in reference to 22,
You stated that the one coming quickly is God correct?
and if thats so why is it presented that John's own testimony, expressing that Jesus is the one coming soon.
To come quickly.And the Angel gave reference to Jesus and Jesus alone for he was sent by Jesus.
Yet the Angel for himself told him to worship God.
So we know whom is speaking.
in relations to rev22,
John believed the one who is coming quickly is Jesus,
What say you
Dennison,In Rev 22 the “I” is followed to the end being Jesus, no?
The confusion may come when you compare this to Rev 1:4 when it talks about God being the “one who is, who was, and is to come”.
One is coming quickly and the other is simply “to come”.
The Professor
DBF
this is you;
The confusion may come when you compare this to Rev 1:4 when it talks about God being the “one who is, who was, and is to come”.
this is revelation 1-4
Grace and peace to you from him who is, and who was, and who is to come, and from the seven spirits before his throne,and this is not God that it referred to it is Christ.
because God never WAS only Christ was.
Pierre
Quote (david @ Aug. 21 2010,18:39) Similar to Jesus illustrations, the symbols and signs of Revelation were not really meant to be understood by everyone. That was the point. REVELATION 1:1
“A revelation by Jesus Christ, which God gave him, to show his slaves [NOT ALL HUMANKIND] the things that must shortly take place. And he sent forth his angel and presented [it] in signs through him to his slave John,”
Hi AllAnd what that interprets to is the JWs and Watchtower are the “faithful and descreet slave”.
The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, commonly known as the Jehovah's Witnesses, claims to be the faithful and discreet slave spoken of in Matt. 24:42-46,
•”Jesus foretold that among his people there would be a “faithful and discreet slave” class who would be providing the spiritual food to God's family of devoted servants on earth, acting as his channel of communication and overseeing the carrying out of the Kingdom interests world-wide (Matt. 24:45-47). These anointed overseers serve as though being guided in their activities by the right hand of Christ,” (Watchtower, Jan. 15, 1969, p. 51).
•All who want to understand the Bible should appreciate that the “greatly diversified wisdom of God” can become known only through Jehovah's channel of communication, the faithful and discreet slave,” (Watchtower, Oct. 1, 1994, p. 8).
•”We all need help to understand the Bible, and we cannot find the Scriptural guidance we need outside the 'faithful and discreet slave' organization,” (Watchtower, Feb. 15, 1981, p. 19).
As “The faithful and discreet slave” it claims that only its organization is capable of rightly understanding God's word: “Only this organization functions for Jehovah's purpose and to his praise. To it alone God's Sacred Word, the Bible, is not a sealed book (Watchtower, July 1, 1973, p. 402).
The Jehovah's Witnesses are certainly zealous for their beliefs, but they are misguided in those beliefs. The Watchtower Organization, including all the Jehovah's Witnesses, is not the faithful and discreet slave spoken of by Jesus in Matt. 24:42-46. The faithful and discreet slave is simply all who are true Christians. SourceNice way to set up a cult by telling everyone that only you and your church can rightly interpret the scriptures. There was another like that called “The Roman Catholic Church”.
Jehovah Witnesses and Watchtower is known to be a cult by the true church which is made up of every believer who has been baptised into the body of Christ.
WJ
Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Aug. 22 2010,14:38) Quote (davidbfun @ Aug. 22 2010,21:52) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Aug. 22 2010,19:01) In your previous post in reference to 22,
You stated that the one coming quickly is God correct?
and if thats so why is it presented that John's own testimony, expressing that Jesus is the one coming soon.
To come quickly.And the Angel gave reference to Jesus and Jesus alone for he was sent by Jesus.
Yet the Angel for himself told him to worship God.
So we know whom is speaking.
in relations to rev22,
John believed the one who is coming quickly is Jesus,
What say you
Dennison,In Rev 22 the “I” is followed to the end being Jesus, no?
The confusion may come when you compare this to Rev 1:4 when it talks about God being the “one who is, who was, and is to come”.
One is coming quickly and the other is simply “to come”.
The Professor
The logic goes around what John believed.
John Believed that it is Jesus that is coming quickly.
THere is nothing left to discuss.I dont like how all these debates about scriptures lol end up being extra biblical debates.
Its very simple.
John declared it, and thats it.
Amen!Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 27 2010,12:58) Quote (davidbfun @ Aug. 23 2010,10:52) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Aug. 22 2010,19:01) In your previous post in reference to 22,
You stated that the one coming quickly is God correct?
and if thats so why is it presented that John's own testimony, expressing that Jesus is the one coming soon.
To come quickly.And the Angel gave reference to Jesus and Jesus alone for he was sent by Jesus.
Yet the Angel for himself told him to worship God.
So we know whom is speaking.
in relations to rev22,
John believed the one who is coming quickly is Jesus,
What say you
Dennison,In Rev 22 the “I” is followed to the end being Jesus, no?
The confusion may come when you compare this to Rev 1:4 when it talks about God being the “one who is, who was, and is to come”.
One is coming quickly and the other is simply “to come”.
The Professor
DBF
this is you;
The confusion may come when you compare this to Rev 1:4 when it talks about God being the “one who is, who was, and is to come”.
this is revelation 1-4
Grace and peace to you from him who is, and who was, and who is to come, and from the seven spirits before his throne,and this is not God that it referred to it is Christ.
because God never WAS only Christ was.
Pierre
Hi Pierre,Here is the sentence in Rev 1 without the man-made inserted numbers:
John to the seven churches that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace, from Him (#1) who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven Spirits (#2) who are before His throne, AND from Jesus Christ (#3), the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth.
Jesus is not #1 nor #2 that are listed before him.
The Professor
Quote (davidbfun @ Aug. 27 2010,12:34) Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 27 2010,12:58) Quote (davidbfun @ Aug. 23 2010,10:52) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Aug. 22 2010,19:01) In your previous post in reference to 22,
You stated that the one coming quickly is God correct?
and if thats so why is it presented that John's own testimony, expressing that Jesus is the one coming soon.
To come quickly.And the Angel gave reference to Jesus and Jesus alone for he was sent by Jesus.
Yet the Angel for himself told him to worship God.
So we know whom is speaking.
in relations to rev22,
John believed the one who is coming quickly is Jesus,
What say you
Dennison,In Rev 22 the “I” is followed to the end being Jesus, no?
The confusion may come when you compare this to Rev 1:4 when it talks about God being the “one who is, who was, and is to come”.
One is coming quickly and the other is simply “to come”.
The Professor
DBF
this is you;
The confusion may come when you compare this to Rev 1:4 when it talks about God being the “one who is, who was, and is to come”.
this is revelation 1-4
Grace and peace to you from him who is, and who was, and who is to come, and from the seven spirits before his throne,and this is not God that it referred to it is Christ.
because God never WAS only Christ was.
Pierre
Hi Pierre,Here is the sentence in Rev 1 without the man-made inserted numbers:
John to the seven churches that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace, from Him (#1) who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven Spirits (#2) who are before His throne, AND from Jesus Christ (#3), the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth.
Jesus is not #1 nor #2 that are listed before him.
The Professor
DBFyou did not answer my problem;how is it that God is “WAS”
Pierre
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