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Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 29 2008,14:00) Hi 94,
Does the scripture say we have to first assess if the need is legitimate
or what was given would go for right purposes?
Hi Nick:By legitimate, I do mean that we should know that it is going for the right purposes, but there are other factors that may enter into whether or not I would want to give such as giving to someone who professes to be a Christian and does not want to work.
In other words, we should not just take one scripture and form our doctrine on the basis of the one scripture, but we must know what the Word of God says regarding the whole subject of giving.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 29 2008,16:17) Hi,
Do you not have love to give? A smile or a cheering word?
Hi Nick:Absolutely, I have those to give and I can also share the gospel with those who may not know the Lord and are willing to hear. As I have stated, I have been doing the work of evangelist in a street ministry for the past 13 years.
However, this thread is about almsgiving.
Hi 94,
Quite so.
Lazarus seems to have enjoyed eternal blessing just because he was deprived.
If the rich man had shared with Lazarus it seems that he would have also been in the Bosom of Abraham.
Luke 16:9
And I say unto you, Make to yourselves friends of the mammon of unrighteousness; that, when ye fail, they may receive you into everlasting habitations.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 30 2008,07:59) Hi 94,
Quite so.
Lazarus seems to have enjoyed eternal blessing just because he was deprived.
If the rich man had shared with Lazarus it seems that he would have also been in the Bosom of Abraham.
Luke 16:9
And I say unto you, Make to yourselves friends of the mammon of unrighteousness; that, when ye fail, they may receive you into everlasting habitations.
Hi Nick:The parable of the “unjust steward” relates to us that we are stewards of all that God has put in our possession, and we are to use what he has given us wisely. If we are faithful in using what talents and possessions we have wisely, then God can entrust us with more, and it also cautions us against comprimising the Word of God.
You say:
Quote Lazarus seems to have enjoyed eternal blessing just because he was deprived.
If the rich man had shared with Lazarus it seems that he would have also been in the Bosom of Abraham.Again, you cannot just take this parable and form a doctrine from it without understanding what was intended by the parable:
Quote Luk 16:13 No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon. Luk 16:14 ¶ And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him.
Luk 16:15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.
Also, Jesus states:
Quote Luk 16:16 The law and the prophets [were] until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it. Luk 16:17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.
Hi 94,
No doctrines, just questions.
But the verse I quoted comes from the same chapter of Luke as this one.
” 19There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:20And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
27Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
What was it that the rich man wanted to go and tell his brothers?
Obviously…
If you don't have silver and gold you can't give it.
But what you do have and you do give, then I believe that thats what its all about.Because we would not have nothing if it weren't for GOD.
We would not even have air to breathe.True Samuel,
I think it ties in with the concept of neighbour.
The rich man was a neighbour to Lazarus but did not love him.
Mark 12:31
And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.And the crude reality of MAN in this day and age…is that no-one loves anyone. It's a “Dog eat Dog” world in their eyes.
I would imagine that there are very few in the world that are actually even “Trying” to keep the commandments in the world at this time.
Half the world don't even believe in GOD, the other have that does are probably mad at him cause Satan has confused their minds and their ways. Even fewer than that are blindly following the path of least resistance. I've been in churches where they allow you to sit in your chair and listen to someone say a prayer…and then proceed to tell you that you are now saved.
What?
You need to confess with your mouth, and repent of your sins yourself. You might not have to walk down to the alter…but it is a very good display of “Faith” when you do. And GOD rewards displays of Faith.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 30 2008,09:00) True Samuel,
I think it ties in with the concept of neighbour.
The rich man was a neighbour to Lazarus but did not love him.
Mark 12:31
And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.
Hi Nick:Yes, I do believe that it ties in loving God and loving your neighbor as yourself.
Also, by the rich man, Jesus was describing the Pharisees who were covetous.
Quote Luk 16:13 No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon. Luk 16:14 ¶ And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him.
Luk 16:15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.
I mean 94 that certainly these words were directed to the Pharisees but does that mean to you that they apply just to them and to nobody else?
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 30 2008,10:43) I mean 94 that certainly these words were directed to the Pharisees but does that mean to you that they apply just to them and to nobody else?
Hi Nick:Certainly, we should take heed not follow the example of the Pharisees.
How do you interpret the following scripture:
Quote Luk 6:38 Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again Hi 94,
In context
30Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again.31And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.
32For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them.
33And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same.
34And if ye lend to them of whom ye hope to receive, what thank have ye? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again.
35But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.
36Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.
37Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:
38Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.
GIVE FREELY
God will refill your larder.Alms; Almsgiving:
ams, ams-giv’-ing:
The English word “alms” is an abridged form of the Greek word, eleemosune (compare “eleemosynary”), appearing in gradually reduced forms in German Almosen, Wyclif’s Almesse, Scotch Aw’mons, and our alms.
The later Jews often used “righteousness” tsedhaqah as meaning alms, that being in their view the foremost righteousness.
Compare our modern use of “charity” to denote almsgiving.
This use is seen in the Talmud and in the frequent translations of the Hebrew word for “righteousness” (tsedhaqah) by “alms” (eleemosune) in the Septuagint, though nothing warranting this is found in the Hebrew Old Testament, or in the true text of the New Testament.
This notion of righteousness as alms being well-nigh universal among Jews in Jesus’ day, and spreading even among Christians, accounts for “alms” in Mt 6:1, where the true text has “righteousness”:
“Take heed that ye do not your righteousness before men, to be seen of them” (the Revised Version (British and American) with Codex Vaticanus, Codex Sinaiticus, Codex Bezae, the Latin versions, etc.).
The oriental versions which generally read “alms” may be accounted for on the supposition that “alms” was first written on the margin as explaining the supposed meaning of “righteousness,” and then, as according with this accepted oriental idea, was substituted for it in the text by the copyists.
Dikaiosune and eleemosune are both used in the Septuagint to translate chesedh, “kindness,” and are also both used to translate tsedhaqah, “justice.”
Almsgiving was regarded not merely as a plain evidence of righteousness in general but also as an act of justice, a just debt owing to the needy.
“No one refuses directly,” Mackie says, hence, possibly, Christ’s teaching in Lu 11:41, “Let your righteousness (charity) be from within,” “Give your hearts to almsgiving.”
In the course of time the impulse and command to give alms in a true human way, out of pity, such as is found expressed in De 15:11 the King James Version, “Thou shalt open thine hand wide unto thy brother, to thy poor, and to thy needy, in thy land,” gave place to a formal, meritorious” practice, possessing, like sacrifice, as men came to think, the power of atoning for man’s sins, and redeeming him from calamity and death.
For instance, Pr 11:4 (compare Pr 16:6, 21:3) was expounded: “Water will quench blazing fire; so doth almsgiving make atonement for sins” (Ecclesiasticus 3:30). “Lay up alms in thy storehouse; it shall deliver thee from affliction” (Ecclesiasticus 29:12).
The story of Tobit is especially in point: it is simply a lesson on almsgiving and its redeeming powers:
“Alms delivers from death and will purge away all sin” (Tobit 1:3,16; 2:14; 4:7-11; 12:8,9. Compare Sirach 29:11 ff).
Kindred teaching abounds in the Talmud:
“Alms-giving is more excellent than all offerings,” is “equal to the whole law,” will “deliver from the condemnation of hell,” will “make one perfectly righteous,” etc.
According to Rabbi Assi, “Almsgiving is a powerful paraclete between the Israelites and their Father in heaven, it brings the time of redemption nigh (Babha’ Bathra’ Talmud 10a).
Protestants, by a natural reaction, have failed to hold always at its true value what was and is an important Christian duty (see Lu 12:33 the King James Version, and, compare Mt 6:19-24: “Sell that ye have and give alms,” etc.).
It seems to have been so regarded and kept up in the Christian communities until the beginning of the 4th century (Apos Const II 36; Cyprian, De Opera and Eleemos. xiv).
The teaching of Jesus on the subject is important, first, as bearing upon Jewish ideas and practices, and second, as bearing upon present-day Christian ideas and practices.
This teaching appears most conspicuously in the Sermon on the Mount.
While showing what is required of the subjects of the Messianic reign, He avowedly sets forth a higher and more spiritual morality than that which was taught and practiced by the scribes and Pharisees:
“Except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no wise enter into the kingdom of heaven” (Mt 5:20).
There, too, He lays down the general principle embodied in the words of Mt 6:1: “Take heed that ye do not your righteousness before men, to be seen of them,” and illustrates it by applying it to the three exercises most valued among the Jews (commended together in Tobit 12:8), namely, almsgiving (Mt 6:2,4), prayer (Mt 6:5-15), and fasting (Mt 6:16-18).
Jewish writers claim that these are “the three cardinal disciplines which the synagogue transmitted to the Christian church and the Mohammedan mosque” (compare Koran, Sura 2 40, 104; 9 54).
Clearly what Jesus here forbids in general is not publicity in performing good deeds, which is often necessary and proper, but ostentatious publicity, for the purpose of attracting attention. (The Greek conveys distinctly this idea of purpose, and the verb for “to be seen” is the one from which comes our word “theater.”)
Jewish writers, as also Greek and Roman philosophers, have many notable maxims upon the beauty and importance of being unostentatious in virtue, especially in deeds of benevolence.
The Essenes had their treasury in a chamber of their own in the temple that both the giving and the taking should be unobserved (Mishnah, Sheq., v.6).
Rabbi Eleazer said, “Alms-giving should be done in secret and not before men, for he who gives before men is a sinner, and God shall bring also the good deed before his judgment” (B.B. 9a; compare Ec 12:14).
In applying this principle to almsgiving Jesus teaches His disciple:
“When … thou doest alms, sound not a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do” (Mt 6:2).
The conjecture of Calvin, followed by Stier and others, and mentioned as early as Euthymius, that it was a practice among Jews for an ostentatious almsgiver literally to sound a trumpet, or cause a trumpet to be sounded before him, in public places to summon the needy is without foundation (Lightfoot); as is also the notion, made current by the rabbis and accepted by Edersheim (The Temple, etc., 26), that by “sounding a trumpet” Jesus was alluding to the trumpet-like receptacles of brass in the temple treasury.
There is no proof that these were found “in the synagogues,” or “in the streets.” “Sound a trumpet,” according to the Greek commentators, and the best modern authorities, is merely a figurative expression common to many languages, for self-parade—efforts to attract notice and win applause (compare our vulgar English saying about “blowing your own horn”).
The contrast with the common practice instituted by Jesus is the significant thing:
“But when thou doest alms”—”thou” is emphatic by position in the Greek—”let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth,” etc., i.e. “So far from trumpeting your almsgiving before the public, do not even let it be known to yourself.” Jesus here, Calvin well says, “silently glances at a kind of folly which prevails everywhere among men, that they think they have lost their pares if there have not been many spectators of their virtues.”
The traditional saying of Mohammed, “In almsgiving, the left hand should not know what the right has given,” is evidently borrowed from this saying of Jesus.
It is worthy of note that, despite popular practice, to give alms with right motives, and only to those who were worthy to receive, was a matter of special solicitude and instruction with the best among Jews as well as among Christians.
The words of the Psalmist, “Blessed is he that considereth the poor,” are construed to be an admonition to “take personal interest in him and not simply give him alms” (Lev. R. xxxiv).
“When thou wilt do good, know to whom thou doest it. Give unto the good and help not
the sinner” (Ecclesiasticus 12:1-6; compare Didache 1:5,6).“He that gives a free offering should give with a well-meaning eye” (Yer. B.D. 4 11).
Jesus’ words concerning the “single” and the “evil” eye (compare Lu 11:34-36), and Paul’s teaching, “God loveth a cheerful giver” (2Co 9:7-9) have their counterparts in Jewish teaching. Rabbi Eleazer, referring to Ho 10:12, taught this high doctrine.
“The kindness displayed in the giving of alms decides the final reward” (Suk. 49b).
Other kindred teaching in a way anticipated Jesus’ supreme lesson, “that thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father who seeth in secret shall recompense thee” (Mt 6:4).
International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia
Quote (942767 @ Mar. 24 2008,19:00) Hi Nick: Relative to giving alms to the poor you say:
Quote Some think giving to their church is what is meant but many of those churches do not know God and His ways. Churches that do not know God and His ways are not the true church. And so, what do you think is meant if it does not mean giving of alms as a church family to the needy?
Alms is not about whom it goes too. But that it goes out, and that it goes out from the heart.If it does not come from the heart, then it is done in vain.
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