Albert Einstein sayings

[Proclaimer]

Quote (david @ Feb. 21 2012,20:31)

What is this stuff about the numbers?   And, on an unrelated topic, does .999… [repeating] equal exactly and precisely 1?  Algebra suggests it does.

I have been debating with Stu over the 3 possible options for how the universe got there.
1) God
2) Nothing
3) Something eternal but not aware or intelligent. (NOTE: this option has to be eternal because if it were not, then nothing must have preceded it. And it has to be non-aware otherwise it would be God)

My point is this:
Infinity exists and is not just a concept. If it didn't, then everything must have proceeded from nothing at the earliest point, and if nothing was the earliest state or thing, then there would be nothing now. Thus, infinity is proven by the very fact that there is something.

If nothing was the first state there is nothing now. But there is something now, so nothing is ruled out.
If an eternal something is dead and had no life whatsoever, then how did it create awareness. And why should the eternal something not be aware. What says it should not? Add to that the complexity of the universe and know that Albert Einstein himself could not make a universe even if he had 14 billion years to figure it out and that is being generous considering that the universe exploded and figured it all out on its 14 billion year journey. The point is, why should we believe that something with the IQ of a pair of socks somehow managed to pull that off?

Everything came from nothing.
Hence start with zero and show me how you get whole numbers.

Everything came from something eternal BUT dead.
Hence start with infinite and show me how infinity can recognise any finite number and recognise itself.

Usually with any scientific or deductive theory you can show it working with mathematics.

So I am asking Stu to show me things with 0 and infinity and he is absolutely lost when it comes to giving some kind of evidence.

Thus my conclusion about him having a kind of faith in a belief stands to this day.
Funny thing is that he despises faith and beliefs, so he really despises himself and often this condition leads to a person who with zealous intent persecutes those that display what he himself displays. This is how a person handles something when they don't want to take responsibility.

[Ed J]

Hi T8,

Absolutely right!
There are two hurtles
evolutionists cannot jump:

1. The Creation of the universe.
2. The Creation of life in the universe.

So they can't even get to square 1 with Darwin.
Yet they have deceived themselves to believe a lie.

Your brother
in Christ, Jesus.
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
holycitybiblecode.org

[david]

Hi t8

Are those three options the only three options?

1. God
2. Nothing
3. Something eternal but non-personal.

wouldn't a non believer say: “how did god get here?”. And then, wouldn't they ask: “does the universe necessarily need to have had a beginning?”

We know our observable universe does seem to have a definite moment where it began. But there are so many theories about what was before that–whether universes just begin, die, implode, explode, implode,…. Or penrose has some interesting mind blowing ideas.

Anyway, it seems to me a non believer would argue that there is another option or more accurately, that your question is wrong, since it assumes there was never ever anything physical before 14 billion years ago. We just don't know enough about this to say anything definitively.

You also said infinity was not just a concept. This is interesting to me because .999… Repeating to infinity, equalling precisely 1, with algebra (see wikipeadia proofs), can only really be understood for some if they realize that .9999999999…. Is more of a concept, than a number. I think I need to learn calculus to understand why some do not believe what algebra suggests.

[Stu]

Quote (t8 @ Feb. 21 2012,19:06)

I have been debating with Stu

What gave you that impression?

Stuart

[david]

Quote (t8 @ Feb. 21 2012,19:06)

Quote (david @ Feb. 21 2012,20:31) What is this stuff about the numbers?   And, on an unrelated topic, does .999… [repeating] equal exactly and precisely 1?  Algebra suggests it does. I have been debating with Stu over the 3 possible options for how the universe got there. 1) God 2) Nothing 3) Something eternal but not aware or intelligent. (NOTE: this option has to be eternal because if it were not, then nothing must have preceded it. And it has to be non-aware otherwise it would be God) My point is this: Infinity exists and is not just a concept. If it didn't, then everything must have proceeded from nothing at the earliest point, and if nothing was the earliest state or thing, then there would be nothing now. Thus, infinity is proven by the very fact that there is something. If nothing was the first state there is nothing now. But there is something now, so nothing is ruled out. If an eternal something is dead and had no life whatsoever, then how did it create awareness. And why should the eternal something not be aware. What says it should not? Add to that the complexity of the universe and know that Albert Einstein himself could not make a universe even if he had 14 billion years to figure it out and that is being generous considering that the universe exploded and figured it all out on its 14 billion year journey. The point is, why should we believe that something with the IQ of a pair of socks somehow managed to pull that off? Everything came from nothing. Hence start with zero and show me how you get whole numbers. Everything came from something eternal BUT dead. Hence start with infinite and show me how infinity can recognise any finite number and recognise itself. Usually with any scientific or deductive theory you can show it working with mathematics. So I am asking Stu to show me things with 0 and infinity and he is absolutely lost when it comes to giving some kind of evidence. Thus my conclusion about him having a kind of faith in a belief stands to this day. Funny thing is that he despises faith and beliefs, so he really despises himself and often this condition leads to a person who with zealous intent persecutes those that display what he himself displays. This is how a person handles something when they don't want to take responsibility.

Just reading your discussion with princess in another pricate thread. Playing devils advocate, how do we know the universe hasn't always existed?

For as long as there has been time, there has been the universe. 🙂

So, much like we can't ask how God came about, similarly the case could be made that we can't ask how the universe came about.

Scientists don't know anything before the Big Bang. They only trace it back to a singularity. If no time existed before the singularity, the question of before, can it even be asked.

But now you ask: well what, who, nothing, caused the singularity to expand?

Probably aliens. :-). This does seem to be a troubling question for non-believers.

I think the greater question is: why is there something when there could be nothing.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (david @ July 21 2013,19:31)

Just reading your discussion with princess in another pricate thread. Playing devils advocate, how do we know the universe hasn't always existed?

That is one of the options.
An eternal something that is not God. At the moment it is the Universe. It might have been something before that, or it could just be the Universe that we see for all eternity.

Just a quick point with the 'Eternal Something' theory is that the Universe is expanding, so if you rewind the tape, it all comes together into a point. But yeah I would like someone to argue that the Universe say, expands, then contracts, and has been doing that for Eternity and even though there was no life, there is now.

Do you want to argue for that point, even though you don't believe it?

[david]

Not really. To me it seems the only alternative though. I don't know that it can be argued or that there is any point in arguing it. I dont know what the argument is for it, other than it seems slightly less unlikely to me than alternatives.

What is the argument against it?

[Proclaimer]

[david]

If by “bananas” you mean modern banana's, then I would say and I would think you would know that bananas had a lot of help from humans. You wouldn't really recognize a banana from a few thousand years ago.

It's similar with how it's almost impossible to find a watermelon with seeds in it these days. 10 years ago, not so hard. We made watermelons better.

Bananas also had lots of larger seeds in them, and were much different looking.

Anyway, that wasnt really your point. I just know that “creationists” often look silly when they start speaking of bananas. (See Kirk Cameron's example)

[david]

Quote

That the Universe can self-organise with no consciousness.

If you have gravity, do you need consciousness to organize? But of course then the questions becomes: where did gravity and the other fundamental forces come from? We're these forces at one time one force? Perhaps gravity is just a function of mass. You have mass, and you have gravity, as though the two were linked just as time is linked. But then where did the mass come from? Energy. But then where did the energy come from? Nothing.

Throw in the idea of a multiverse, and this conversation becomes pointless. Maybe the energy seeped in from other universes. 🙂

[Proclaimer]

Quote (david @ July 23 2013,15:38)

If by “bananas” you mean modern banana's, then I would say and I would think you would know that bananas had a lot of help from humans.  You wouldn't really recognize a banana from a few thousand years ago.   It's similar with how it's almost impossible to find a watermelon with seeds in it these days.  10 years ago, not so hard.  We made watermelons better.   Bananas also had lots of larger seeds in them, and were much different looking.   Anyway, that wasnt really your point.  I just know that “creationists” often look silly when they start speaking of bananas.  (See Kirk Cameron's example)

Yes we have improved them to suit, but we didn't create them. Think about the miracle that they all exist and taste different to us. Could you even imagine a taste in your mind that you had never experienced. Well the Universe with an IQ of a car tyre did it all without one thought.

And if that is the case, then us who are endowed with consciousness and intelligence should feel ashamed that a Universe as intelligent as a car tyre can out smart us.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (david @ Feb. 22 2012,16:10)

Hi t8 Are those three options the only three options? 1. God 2. Nothing 3. Something eternal but non-personal. wouldn't a non believer say: “how did god get here?”. And then, wouldn't they ask:  “does the universe necessarily need to have had a beginning?” We know our observable universe does seem to have a definite moment where it began.  But there are so many theories about what was before that–whether universes just begin, die, implode, explode, implode,….   Or penrose has some interesting mind blowing ideas.   Anyway, it seems to me a non believer would argue that there is another option or more accurately, that your question is wrong, since it assumes there was never ever anything physical before 14 billion years ago.  We just don't know enough about this to say anything definitively. You also said infinity was not just a concept. This is interesting to me because .999… Repeating to infinity, equalling precisely 1, with algebra (see wikipeadia proofs), can only really be understood for some if they realize that .9999999999…. Is more of a concept, than a number.  I think I need to learn calculus to understand why some do not believe what algebra suggests.

Yes that leaves an infinite Universe or an Infinite Consciousness. They are the only real contenders.

I think a small section of Atheism is the only belief system to believe that the Universe is eternal while all other beliefs believe in God or gods or a Universe out of nothing.

But what we see in the Universe is more a product of mind. A self-contained universe that has always existed versus an eternal God.

The weakness with the Eternal Universe option is that design, complexity, logic, patterns, and the code of the universe suggests very strongly that there is a designer, logical mind, or programmer of some kind. It is far more likely that the universe is a product rather than the universe being the maker. It is like believing that a garage, car, or computer had always existed or that they can exist without a maker. In addition if the universe existed without an intelligent mind or awareness as its cause, then how did awareness or consciousness come about? You are the biggest proof of awareness if you think about it. I think therefore I am. If existence started with no life or intelligence, then life and intelligence would not exist today because the cause doesn't possess that attribute. Think of an eternal universe sitting there. How does it come up with consciousness and awareness when it doesn't possess it. You are back to the something out of nothing option, i.e., consciousness out of non-consciousness. Surely only awareness and life can produce awareness and life.

I see the Eternal Universe as a non-starter and falls in the ludicrous or fairytale category.

[Proclaimer]

David, we observe everyday, consciousness creating things, ideas, tangible products, cyberspace, AI, code, communication, etc. Never have we observed, life come from non-life.

All scientists need to do is make a dead body alive, and that will no longer be true. And for that life to be new, and not the same life that existed in that body before because that would just be a resurrection from the dead.

[Proclaimer]

Think of it like this. If the universe is first, then it had no cause because if it did, then it came from something and that something obviously precedes the universe and therefore the universe cannot be first. Whatever is first had to have no cause because that is the definition of first in this context. Once we understand that, then there are some interesting requirements that the original or first thing must have, such as it must be eternal or infinite. Otherwise again, it is not the first. The more you look into it, the more you can see the parallels with this and God.

If the universe has life, then life is part of the source of the universe. If the universe has order, then order is part of the source of the universe. If the universe has design, then the source of the universe has the ability to design. The ingredients and products of the universe must also be present in the source of the universe, otherwise they come from nothing which is impossible. Let’s see. The source produced intelligence, design. life, and laws. Is that not a description of God? Is he not living, a designer, an intelligence, and the law giver? You can deny God, but you cannot deny the need that the source of the universe possesses the qualities that it produced.

[david]

Quote

The weakness with the Eternal Universe option is that design, complexity, logic, patterns, and the code of the universe suggests very strongly that there is a designer, logical mind, or programmer of some kind. It is far more likely that the universe is a product rather than the universe being the maker. It is like believing that a garage, car, or computer had always existed or that they can exist without a maker. In addition if the universe existed without an intelligent mind or awareness as its cause, then how did awareness or consciousness come about? You are the biggest proof of awareness if you think about it. I think therefore I am. If existence started with no life or intelligence, then life and intelligence would not exist today because the cause doesn't possess that attribute. Think of an eternal universe sitting there. How does it come up with consciousness and awareness when it doesn't possess it. You are back to the something out of nothing option, i.e., consciousness out of non-consciousness. Surely only awareness and life can produce awareness and life.

Now apply that reasoning to the question of God. Does not your reasoning suggest that someone or something had to design God?

[terraricca]

Quote (david @ Aug. 14 2013,08:24)

Quote The weakness with the Eternal Universe option is that design, complexity, logic, patterns, and the code of the universe suggests very strongly that there is a designer, logical mind, or programmer of some kind. It is far more likely that the universe is a product rather than the universe being the maker. It is like believing that a garage, car, or computer had always existed or that they can exist without a maker. In addition if the universe existed without an intelligent mind or awareness as its cause, then how did awareness or consciousness come about? You are the biggest proof of awareness if you think about it. I think therefore I am. If existence started with no life or intelligence, then life and intelligence would not exist today because the cause doesn't possess that attribute. Think of an eternal  universe sitting there. How does it come up with consciousness and awareness when it doesn't possess it. You are back to the something out of nothing option, i.e., consciousness out of non-consciousness.  Surely only awareness and life can produce awareness and life. Now apply that reasoning to the question of God.  Does not your reasoning suggest that someone or something had to design God?

david

this would a never ending question ,so it does not make sens

[david]

Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 14 2013,15:51)

Quote (david @ Aug. 14 2013,08:24) Quote The weakness with the Eternal Universe option is that design, complexity, logic, patterns, and the code of the universe suggests very strongly that there is a designer, logical mind, or programmer of some kind. It is far more likely that the universe is a product rather than the universe being the maker. It is like believing that a garage, car, or computer had always existed or that they can exist without a maker. In addition if the universe existed without an intelligent mind or awareness as its cause, then how did awareness or consciousness come about? You are the biggest proof of awareness if you think about it. I think therefore I am. If existence started with no life or intelligence, then life and intelligence would not exist today because the cause doesn't possess that attribute. Think of an eternal  universe sitting there. How does it come up with consciousness and awareness when it doesn't possess it. You are back to the something out of nothing option, i.e., consciousness out of non-consciousness.  Surely only awareness and life can produce awareness and life. Now apply that reasoning to the question of God.  Does not your reasoning suggest that someone or something had to design God? david this would a never ending question ,so it does not make sens

Then the entire question of the universe also makes no sense.

[terraricca]

Quote (david @ Aug. 14 2013,10:57)

Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 14 2013,15:51) Quote (david @ Aug. 14 2013,08:24) Quote The weakness with the Eternal Universe option is that design, complexity, logic, patterns, and the code of the universe suggests very strongly that there is a designer, logical mind, or programmer of some kind. It is far more likely that the universe is a product rather than the universe being the maker. It is like believing that a garage, car, or computer had always existed or that they can exist without a maker. In addition if the universe existed without an intelligent mind or awareness as its cause, then how did awareness or consciousness come about? You are the biggest proof of awareness if you think about it. I think therefore I am. If existence started with no life or intelligence, then life and intelligence would not exist today because the cause doesn't possess that attribute. Think of an eternal  universe sitting there. How does it come up with consciousness and awareness when it doesn't possess it. You are back to the something out of nothing option, i.e., consciousness out of non-consciousness.  Surely only awareness and life can produce awareness and life. Now apply that reasoning to the question of God.  Does not your reasoning suggest that someone or something had to design God? david this would a never ending question ,so it does not make sens Then the entire question of the universe also makes no sense.

David

this is why scriptures says that God created all things ;end of story ,this is our faith for now ;either you believe it or you do not

[Author]

Posts