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Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 14 2010,17:58) The problem with your response is that it didn't answer my question. When slavery was perfectly acceptable in America it was because of Social Capital which is really just another word for Politics. What stopped slavery in America was Religion and the belief in God.
You should really look int the history of the Southern Baptists if you believe this lie.Quote (Stu @ Jan. 15 2010,13:34) Karmarie Quote More I think to do with faultlines and plates, not an angry God, Samoa was the same.
Absolutely. The Pat Robertsons of the world live in an insane religious fantasy.Quote Jesus said only that it was a sign of the times, that there would be an increase in earthquakes, famines, wars.
And yet there has been no change at all in earthquake frequency, it is just that we have been better at detecting them!Maybe Jesus wasn't a seismologist.
Stuart
STU,If you want to be an atheist that's fine but you have no idea of the frequency of earthquakes and the data of such things is not that established.
Why do you pretend to know so many scientific things and you are not even close to being a scientist or for that matter not even someone who does scientific research.
Did you ever consider that the combination of population to the ratio of earthquakes would be counted as “more” earthquakes because more people live in more places?
Earthquakes only matter where they can be felt. Famine only counts where there is people with no food not simply where there is no food.
bodhitharta wrote:
Quote The problem with your response is that it didn't answer my question. When slavery was perfectly acceptable in America it was because of Social Capital which is really just another word for Politics. What stopped slavery in America was Religion and the belief in God. Let me try this again, since you clearly missed the point.
Why don't most people walk around in public in pajamas, dirty clothes, or naked?
A) They believe they will be punished in the afterlife, if they don't make themselves presentable in public.
B) They want to present a good image in their everyday social interactions so that others will treat them well and/or think of them positively.
(Bonus question: Why do many kids in highschool dress in ways that many adults find embarrassing? Hint: Think of what's “socially normal” on college campuses.)
Why don't people generally settle disputes with their family and friends by beating the crap out of them?
A) They believe they will be punished in the afterlife, if they physically hurt someone.
B) They don't want to alienate the people in their immediate social network as that might leave them isolated relationally and perhaps materially as well.
(As a bonus question, why do men who beat their wives generally try to hide it from other people? Hint: Think about what things are considered socially acceptable.)
If you think the answers are closer to A than to B, then I can't help you.
Religion has very little to do with how people act on a day to day basis, and that is true of most religious people as well. Religious people do have an added incentive to behave well, (i.e. their social capital with their god), but in most cases, they seem far more willing to offend their god then to offend their neighbor.
Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Jan. 15 2010,14:41) bodhitharta wrote: Quote The problem with your response is that it didn't answer my question. When slavery was perfectly acceptable in America it was because of Social Capital which is really just another word for Politics. What stopped slavery in America was Religion and the belief in God. Let me try this again, since you clearly missed the point.
Why don't most people walk around in public in pajamas, dirty clothes, or naked?
A) They believe they will be punished in the afterlife, if they don't make themselves presentable in public.
B) They want to present a good image in their everyday social interactions so that others will treat them well and/or think of them positively.
(Bonus question: Why do many kids in highschool dress in ways that many adults find embarrassing? Hint: Think of what's “socially normal” on college campuses.)
Why don't people generally settle disputes with their family and friends by beating the crap out of them?
A) They believe they will be punished in the afterlife, if they physically hurt someone.
B) They don't want to alienate the people in their immediate social network as that might leave them isolated relationally and perhaps materially as well.
(As a bonus question, why do men who beat their wives generally try to hide it from other people? Hint: Think about what things are considered socially acceptable.)
If you think the answers are closer to A than to B, then I can't help you.
Religion has very little to do with how people act on a day to day basis, and that is true of most religious people as well. Religious people do have an added incentive to behave well, (i.e. their social capital with their god), but in most cases, they seem far more willing to offend their god then to offend their neighbor.
I'm sorry, you seem to not really know about society. have you ever lived in an actual city?People do settle their disputes with violence all the time and when they don't it's from fear of being arrested not an outcast, same thing with abusive husbands they don't want to be arrested.
People do all the time walk around in pajamas and dirty clothes and once again they don't walk around naked because they will be arrested.
Where do you live? Not in New York, Los Angelas, Chicago, Newark or any major city, am I right?
I have always lived in big cities, trust me I know what I'm talking about.
Those who are willing to offend God are more than willing to offend their neighbor.
Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 14 2010,22:14) Those who are willing to offend God are more than willing to offend their neighbor.
Gee, I wonder how many people contemplating some crime are thinking “I think I will go offend God today”?Quote (kejonn @ Jan. 16 2010,00:11) Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 14 2010,22:14) Those who are willing to offend God are more than willing to offend their neighbor.
Gee, I wonder how many people contemplating some crime are thinking “I think I will go offend God today”?
When a person contemplates a crime they first have to digest the fact that it is wrong and it is only wrong to them because they know God exists so at that point they are offending God before the crime is commited. But if they turn back because of their conscience they have not done wrongQuote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 15 2010,10:14) Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Jan. 15 2010,14:41) bodhitharta wrote: Quote The problem with your response is that it didn't answer my question. When slavery was perfectly acceptable in America it was because of Social Capital which is really just another word for Politics. What stopped slavery in America was Religion and the belief in God. Let me try this again, since you clearly missed the point.
Why don't most people walk around in public in pajamas, dirty clothes, or naked?
A) They believe they will be punished in the afterlife, if they don't make themselves presentable in public.
B) They want to present a good image in their everyday social interactions so that others will treat them well and/or think of them positively.
(Bonus question: Why do many kids in highschool dress in ways that many adults find embarrassing? Hint: Think of what's “socially normal” on college campuses.)
Why don't people generally settle disputes with their family and friends by beating the crap out of them?
A) They believe they will be punished in the afterlife, if they physically hurt someone.
B) They don't want to alienate the people in their immediate social network as that might leave them isolated relationally and perhaps materially as well.
(As a bonus question, why do men who beat their wives generally try to hide it from other people? Hint: Think about what things are considered socially acceptable.)
If you think the answers are closer to A than to B, then I can't help you.
Religion has very little to do with how people act on a day to day basis, and that is true of most religious people as well. Religious people do have an added incentive to behave well, (i.e. their social capital with their god), but in most cases, they seem far more willing to offend their god then to offend their neighbor.
I'm sorry, you seem to not really know about society. have you ever lived in an actual city?People do settle their disputes with violence all the time and when they don't it's from fear of being arrested not an outcast, same thing with abusive husbands they don't want to be arrested.
People do all the time walk around in pajamas and dirty clothes and once again they don't walk around naked because they will be arrested.
Where do you live? Not in New York, Los Angelas, Chicago, Newark or any major city, am I right?
I have always lived in big cities, trust me I know what I'm talking about.
Those who are willing to offend God are more than willing to offend their neighbor.
You actually demonstrate my point perfectly. Wherever people value their social interactions, there is more civility. Wherever people don't value their social interactions, you find more crime, more violence, more filth, etc.. In big cities, social capital is less valuable and therefore less influential. In small towns, social capital is very valuable, thus much less crime, nicer neighbors, etc..Go back and take my quiz. Skip the bonus questions, 'cause you're not ready for them yet.
I wonder about all the closet-drinking muslims (I had a Syrian flatmate who was christian-afflicted and who explained with great relish that our muslim Syrian flatmates all had bottles of something comforting in their wardrobes, so the story roughly went).
Do they turn away from Mecca when they imbible so allah can't see them?
What a farcical belief system. Drinking alcohol is not for everyone, but why, O creationist, did allah give us enzymes for dealing with ethanol if we were not meant to have it?
Stuart
Quote Those who are willing to offend God are more than willing to offend their neighbor.
My neighbours are very decent people, I would have no reason to go out of my way to try and offend them.Your god on the other hand, is offensive and I take offense at it, probably not quite as quickly as some muslims manufacture offense from trivial matters.
Is your god offended by me?
I would hope so, if there was any such thing.
Stuart
Hmmm. I wrote 'imbible' two posts ago. I did mean 'imbibe'.
I am sure imbible is a verb waiting for a religious use.
Stuart
Muslims and alcohol on YouTube:
Logic…damage outweighs the benefits…obedience…it’s a test…how about just a LITTLE BIT?..the hadith says it is forbidden, it will make you drunk (!)…
…MEDICINAL PURPOSES! That’s what my flatmates were taking it for. They only took a little bit and I never saw any of them drunk.
Even alcohol for sterilizing medical equipment should only be used if there is no alternative available. (Rubbing alcohol was invented, apparently by a tenth century muslim!). WHY?
Once again we get to the bottom of islam: experiments on chimpanzees show that once a rule is established in a group, for example avoiding a metal plate even though it has food on it, because a researcher will occasionally electrify it, you can stop giving the electric shocks altogether and, one by one replace all of the chimpanzees until there are none of the original group left, and those new chimps will still ATTACK ANY CHIMP who approaches the metal plate with food!
Muslims are following Dark Age rules about food and drink mindlessly. That is evident in the absurd appeals to authority and range of spurious nonsense reasons (‘pigs are filthy animals’).
How moronic.
Stuart
Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Jan. 16 2010,07:42) Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 15 2010,10:14) Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Jan. 15 2010,14:41) bodhitharta wrote: Quote The problem with your response is that it didn't answer my question. When slavery was perfectly acceptable in America it was because of Social Capital which is really just another word for Politics. What stopped slavery in America was Religion and the belief in God. Let me try this again, since you clearly missed the point.
Why don't most people walk around in public in pajamas, dirty clothes, or naked?
A) They believe they will be punished in the afterlife, if they don't make themselves presentable in public.
B) They want to present a good image in their everyday social interactions so that others will treat them well and/or think of them positively.
(Bonus question: Why do many kids in highschool dress in ways that many adults find embarrassing? Hint: Think of what's “socially normal” on college campuses.)
Why don't people generally settle disputes with their family and friends by beating the crap out of them?
A) They believe they will be punished in the afterlife, if they physically hurt someone.
B) They don't want to alienate the people in their immediate social network as that might leave them isolated relationally and perhaps materially as well.
(As a bonus question, why do men who beat their wives generally try to hide it from other people? Hint: Think about what things are considered socially acceptable.)
If you think the answers are closer to A than to B, then I can't help you.
Religion has very little to do with how people act on a day to day basis, and that is true of most religious people as well. Religious people do have an added incentive to behave well, (i.e. their social capital with their god), but in most cases, they seem far more willing to offend their god then to offend their neighbor.
I'm sorry, you seem to not really know about society. have you ever lived in an actual city?People do settle their disputes with violence all the time and when they don't it's from fear of being arrested not an outcast, same thing with abusive husbands they don't want to be arrested.
People do all the time walk around in pajamas and dirty clothes and once again they don't walk around naked because they will be arrested.
Where do you live? Not in New York, Los Angelas, Chicago, Newark or any major city, am I right?
I have always lived in big cities, trust me I know what I'm talking about.
Those who are willing to offend God are more than willing to offend their neighbor.
You actually demonstrate my point perfectly. Wherever people value their social interactions, there is more civility. Wherever people don't value their social interactions, you find more crime, more violence, more filth, etc.. In big cities, social capital is less valuable and therefore less influential. In small towns, social capital is very valuable, thus much less crime, nicer neighbors, etc..Go back and take my quiz. Skip the bonus questions, 'cause you're not ready for them yet.
The populations are by far in the larger cities therefore your whole point is moot.Quote (Stu @ Jan. 16 2010,08:34) Muslims and alcohol on YouTube: Logic…damage outweighs the benefits…obedience…it’s a test…how about just a LITTLE BIT?..the hadith says it is forbidden, it will make you drunk (!)…
…MEDICINAL PURPOSES! That’s what my flatmates were taking it for. They only took a little bit and I never saw any of them drunk.
Even alcohol for sterilizing medical equipment should only be used if there is no alternative available. (Rubbing alcohol was invented, apparently by a tenth century muslim!). WHY?
Once again we get to the bottom of islam: experiments on chimpanzees show that once a rule is established in a group, for example avoiding a metal plate even though it has food on it, because a researcher will occasionally electrify it, you can stop giving the electric shocks altogether and, one by one replace all of the chimpanzees until there are none of the original group left, and those new chimps will still ATTACK ANY CHIMP who approaches the metal plate with food!
Muslims are following Dark Age rules about food and drink mindlessly. That is evident in the absurd appeals to authority and range of spurious nonsense reasons (‘pigs are filthy animals’).
How moronic.
Stuart
There is nothing wrong with drinking alcohol if someone can control their usage. Some are very disciplined and can control their urges to over consume, many cannot control their urge to over consume and many who consume too much alcohol harm comes to them.It is the same with other things as well, I'm sure there are people that do only small amounts of drugs but mainly most drug users escalate their drug usage.
It's not the alcohol or drugs themselves it's their power to seduce that is the issue.
Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 16 2010,11:35) Quote (Stu @ Jan. 16 2010,08:34) Muslims and alcohol on YouTube: Logic…damage outweighs the benefits…obedience…it’s a test…how about just a LITTLE BIT?..the hadith says it is forbidden, it will make you drunk (!)…
…MEDICINAL PURPOSES! That’s what my flatmates were taking it for. They only took a little bit and I never saw any of them drunk.
Even alcohol for sterilizing medical equipment should only be used if there is no alternative available. (Rubbing alcohol was invented, apparently by a tenth century muslim!). WHY?
Once again we get to the bottom of islam: experiments on chimpanzees show that once a rule is established in a group, for example avoiding a metal plate even though it has food on it, because a researcher will occasionally electrify it, you can stop giving the electric shocks altogether and, one by one replace all of the chimpanzees until there are none of the original group left, and those new chimps will still ATTACK ANY CHIMP who approaches the metal plate with food!
Muslims are following Dark Age rules about food and drink mindlessly. That is evident in the absurd appeals to authority and range of spurious nonsense reasons (‘pigs are filthy animals’).
How moronic.
Stuart
There is nothing wrong with drinking alcohol if someone can control their usage. Some are very disciplined and can control their urges to over consume, many cannot control their urge to over consume and many who consume too much alcohol harm comes to them.It is the same with other things as well, I'm sure there are people that do only small amounts of drugs but mainly most drug users escalate their drug usage.
It's not the alcohol or drugs themselves it's their power to seduce that is the issue.
SO you are saying that muslims SHOULD drink alcohol if they want?Stuart
Quote (Stu @ Jan. 16 2010,13:55) Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 16 2010,11:35) Quote (Stu @ Jan. 16 2010,08:34) Muslims and alcohol on YouTube: Logic…damage outweighs the benefits…obedience…it’s a test…how about just a LITTLE BIT?..the hadith says it is forbidden, it will make you drunk (!)…
…MEDICINAL PURPOSES! That’s what my flatmates were taking it for. They only took a little bit and I never saw any of them drunk.
Even alcohol for sterilizing medical equipment should only be used if there is no alternative available. (Rubbing alcohol was invented, apparently by a tenth century muslim!). WHY?
Once again we get to the bottom of islam: experiments on chimpanzees show that once a rule is established in a group, for example avoiding a metal plate even though it has food on it, because a researcher will occasionally electrify it, you can stop giving the electric shocks altogether and, one by one replace all of the chimpanzees until there are none of the original group left, and those new chimps will still ATTACK ANY CHIMP who approaches the metal plate with food!
Muslims are following Dark Age rules about food and drink mindlessly. That is evident in the absurd appeals to authority and range of spurious nonsense reasons (‘pigs are filthy animals’).
How moronic.
Stuart
There is nothing wrong with drinking alcohol if someone can control their usage. Some are very disciplined and can control their urges to over consume, many cannot control their urge to over consume and many who consume too much alcohol harm comes to them.It is the same with other things as well, I'm sure there are people that do only small amounts of drugs but mainly most drug users escalate their drug usage.
It's not the alcohol or drugs themselves it's their power to seduce that is the issue.
SO you are saying that muslims SHOULD drink alcohol if they want?Stuart
I am saying that if someone wants to drink and can control themselves, yes.ALLAH, does not wish to oppress His servants but at the same time not many can control themselves with alcohol which leads to a lot of misery and lapses of judgement so it is not the alcohol itself it is the effect that it can have on an individual that is the problem. The same goes for gambling, I have lived in Las Vegas and I will tell you, gambling has caused many people to kill themselves and often their spouse and children as well because a man lost control and gambled away all the money they had.
All Spiritual Laws are the way of life that leads to successful relations
Quote I am saying that if someone wants to drink and can control themselves, yes. ALLAH, does not wish to oppress His servants but at the same time not many can control themselves with alcohol which leads to a lot of misery and lapses of judgement so it is not the alcohol itself it is the effect that it can have on an individual that is the problem. The same goes for gambling, I have lived in Las Vegas and I will tell you, gambling has caused many people to kill themselves and often their spouse and children as well because a man lost control and gambled away all the money they had.
All Spiritual Laws are the way of life that leads to successful relations
I take it that your difference with other muslims on this issue is to do with your attitude towards the hadiths. Is that fair?
Stuart
Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 15 2010,13:31) When a person contemplates a crime they first have to digest the fact that it is wrong and it is only wrong to them because they know God exists so at that point they are offending God before the crime is commited. But if they turn back because of their conscience they have not done wrong
Opinion != FactYou've yet to show the correlation of gob-belief and “morality”. You simply believe that this is the case.
Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 16 2010,06:29) Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Jan. 16 2010,07:42) Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 15 2010,10:14) Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Jan. 15 2010,14:41) bodhitharta wrote: Quote The problem with your response is that it didn't answer my question. When slavery was perfectly acceptable in America it was because of Social Capital which is really just another word for Politics. What stopped slavery in America was Religion and the belief in God. Let me try this again, since you clearly missed the point.
Why don't most people walk around in public in pajamas, dirty clothes, or naked?
A) They believe they will be punished in the afterlife, if they don't make themselves presentable in public.
B) They want to present a good image in their everyday social interactions so that others will treat them well and/or think of them positively.
(Bonus question: Why do many kids in highschool dress in ways that many adults find embarrassing? Hint: Think of what's “socially normal” on college campuses.)
Why don't people generally settle disputes with their family and friends by beating the crap out of them?
A) They believe they will be punished in the afterlife, if they physically hurt someone.
B) They don't want to alienate the people in their immediate social network as that might leave them isolated relationally and perhaps materially as well.
(As a bonus question, why do men who beat their wives generally try to hide it from other people? Hint: Think about what things are considered socially acceptable.)
If you think the answers are closer to A than to B, then I can't help you.
Religion has very little to do with how people act on a day to day basis, and that is true of most religious people as well. Religious people do have an added incentive to behave well, (i.e. their social capital with their god), but in most cases, they seem far more willing to offend their god then to offend their neighbor.
I'm sorry, you seem to not really know about society. have you ever lived in an actual city?People do settle their disputes with violence all the time and when they don't it's from fear of being arrested not an outcast, same thing with abusive husbands they don't want to be arrested.
People do all the time walk around in pajamas and dirty clothes and once again they don't walk around naked because they will be arrested.
Where do you live? Not in New York, Los Angelas, Chicago, Newark or any major city, am I right?
I have always lived in big cities, trust me I know what I'm talking about.
Those who are willing to offend God are more than willing to offend their neighbor.
You actually demonstrate my point perfectly. Wherever people value their social interactions, there is more civility. Wherever people don't value their social interactions, you find more crime, more violence, more filth, etc.. In big cities, social capital is less valuable and therefore less influential. In small towns, social capital is very valuable, thus much less crime, nicer neighbors, etc..Go back and take my quiz. Skip the bonus questions, 'cause you're not ready for them yet.
The populations are by far in the larger cities therefore your whole point is moot.
When you can explain to me what you think my point is, we can discuss whether or not it's moot. As of now, my impression is that you just don't get it.Quote (Stu @ Jan. 16 2010,20:13) Quote I am saying that if someone wants to drink and can control themselves, yes. ALLAH, does not wish to oppress His servants but at the same time not many can control themselves with alcohol which leads to a lot of misery and lapses of judgement so it is not the alcohol itself it is the effect that it can have on an individual that is the problem. The same goes for gambling, I have lived in Las Vegas and I will tell you, gambling has caused many people to kill themselves and often their spouse and children as well because a man lost control and gambled away all the money they had.
All Spiritual Laws are the way of life that leads to successful relations
I take it that your difference with other muslims on this issue is to do with your attitude towards the hadiths. Is that fair?
Stuart
I don't have an additude towards the Hadiths, I have never considered them because they are not the words of ALLAHQuote (kejonn @ Jan. 16 2010,22:58) Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 15 2010,13:31) When a person contemplates a crime they first have to digest the fact that it is wrong and it is only wrong to them because they know God exists so at that point they are offending God before the crime is commited. But if they turn back because of their conscience they have not done wrong
Opinion != FactYou've yet to show the correlation of gob-belief and “morality”. You simply believe that this is the case.
Morality is directly correlated to obedience of a standard of behaviour. Any standard of obedience must come from a recognition of Authority.So either you believe that man is an authority of morality or that morality is a standard of God.
But consider this, which man or men have the ability over you to decide what is moral?
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