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Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 12 2010,12:59) You keep speaking of evolution as if you have the slightest clue about it but Kejonn if you don't believe in God for the reasons you gave why would you believe in Evolution when in-fact you have no way of explain a few things. Because evolution at least has some scientific backing. God? Just some desert nomads who said “God did it!”. Since science has given us so much more than desert nomads ever will, I'll take science over superstition any day of the week.
Quote For life to evolve it would need to be able to reproduce, metabolize food, and manage its waste. Now, how could a life form not evolve into such a life giving source? In sexual reproduction 2 life forms must have the capacity to reproduce so in the sense of evolution how would the state of being Male or Female be reached without sexual reproduction Not evolving
In a genetic blueprint how would the “form” command function?
And how does the “write” command function? You suppose that through physical actions of an organism and it's environment “Natural selection” writes into the genetic blueprint necessary information and that is because much like STU you do not even understand Natural Selection
Which is best explained as what can survive will survive. It is biological viability, Nature doesn't “select” anything but somehow you got duped into believing that evolution was some sort of GOAL driven process it reminds me of the utter foolishness of Richard Dawkins who unbeknownst even to himself keeps giving Conscious attributes to what he calls a blind process.
Now if you really look at how life forms survive and thrive you will see life is a very conscious affair.
My point is you have not changed at all from when you first accepted God and religion, you have just changed your gullibility to something else. Just like before you act without knowledge but the fact is you know as much as you know about Science as you do about God and religion.
Being Numb has become a comfort to you
I bolded and underlined your words for emphasis. You just admitted that people who accept God are gullible
.In any case, nothing you said above in any way disproves evolution and proves Allah. Try again.
Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 13 2010,13:56) STU, Explain the Evolution of Sexual reproduction,
In-fact explain the evolution of Asexual reproduction
Can you do it? There is no link that you have ever provided that explains the evolution of either because there is no explanation.
It is so funny when anyone tries to explain it because they just fuddle around and use all sorts anthromorphic terms to give a semblence of consciousness. Terms like “Selfish” “Co-evolving” “Selecting” “self-repair”. “swap”…etc
It's really quite a joke how someone can ascribe consciousness to all these processes then without blinking dismiss GOD
STU,
You don't have a clue and you know it's true but then again that's STU
Why are you conflating this with consciousness now? Do you have ADHD or something?How about, instead of you making spurious demands for me to explain, YOU explain the origins of reproduction.
I do mean EXPLAIN, not just respond with goddidit.
Stuart
Quote (kejonn @ Jan. 13 2010,14:09) Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 12 2010,12:59) You keep speaking of evolution as if you have the slightest clue about it but Kejonn if you don't believe in God for the reasons you gave why would you believe in Evolution when in-fact you have no way of explain a few things. Because evolution at least has some scientific backing. God? Just some desert nomads who said “God did it!”. Since science has given us so much more than desert nomads ever will, I'll take science over superstition any day of the week.
Quote For life to evolve it would need to be able to reproduce, metabolize food, and manage its waste. Now, how could a life form not evolve into such a life giving source? In sexual reproduction 2 life forms must have the capacity to reproduce so in the sense of evolution how would the state of being Male or Female be reached without sexual reproduction Not evolving
In a genetic blueprint how would the “form” command function?
And how does the “write” command function? You suppose that through physical actions of an organism and it's environment “Natural selection” writes into the genetic blueprint necessary information and that is because much like STU you do not even understand Natural Selection
Which is best explained as what can survive will survive. It is biological viability, Nature doesn't “select” anything but somehow you got duped into believing that evolution was some sort of GOAL driven process it reminds me of the utter foolishness of Richard Dawkins who unbeknownst even to himself keeps giving Conscious attributes to what he calls a blind process.
Now if you really look at how life forms survive and thrive you will see life is a very conscious affair.
My point is you have not changed at all from when you first accepted God and religion, you have just changed your gullibility to something else. Just like before you act without knowledge but the fact is you know as much as you know about Science as you do about God and religion.
Being Numb has become a comfort to you
I bolded and underlined your words for emphasis. You just admitted that people who accept God are gullible .In any case, nothing you said above in any way disproves evolution and proves Allah. Try again.
Of course most people who believe in anything are gullible, then there are those that really dig in and find out the truth these are the ones that WITNESS THE REAL.I was exactly like you I was a Christian growing up simply because that's what I was told I was and even when I started studying I tried different denominations but the underlying fact was there was no confirmation for my belief and so I became Atheistic although deep inside it's all still there but just unconfirmed.
I wanted to disprove God so I went on a quest to do so
I studied many of the sciences, philosophies and critical thinking In-fact I realized that if there was no God I could also become a very succesful person because I could negotiate and mentally dominate at will knowing I was “free” to do so. I could seduce woman knowing that true disbelief in God entails wanting to enjoy the pleasures of this life by all means.Think about it, if this is your one and only life you should get whatever you feel you want as safely as possible.
As I went further and further God started showing me things and odd enough God started doing something amazing.
I started feeling energy in my hands and the energy could extend beyond me and I didn't know what it was nor did I care I just wanted to find away to utilize this phenomenon to make money, friends or whatever and I did but the funny thing was One day a friend of mine had a headache and I said I bet I can make it go away and I placed my hand above her head and within seconds she told me her migraine went away.
Pretty soon I was helping people in all sorts of ways and many kept saying and thanking God, I looked into the possibility of physics and electromagnetic energy and action at a distance(Spooky physics) and even Quantum teleportation.
But then it kept intensifying and I started knowing what was wrong with the person before they would tell me on one occasion a young lady told me her mother had been sick in bed for months she was afraid she would pass soon the compassion I felt was so great I simply hugged her and told her to go and give this hug from me to your mom and tell her I love her, she thought it was weird but she did it anyway
a day or two later this young lady returned with her mother in vibrant health in a few weeks later she was back shopping, dating and living her life.
I started realizing that it wasn't me at all and it didn't even matter if they had faith or what their religion was and the distance became less and less important
This went on for quite sometime even a small dog was raised from death but I fell in love with everything I would try to bring a dead bug or bee back to life sometimes I could and sometimes I couldn't usually depending on the extent of the length of their death or extent of injury.
At some point I knew for a fact that it was God and then God started communicating with me because at one point the Power of it all was a bit overwhelming and also I went to another point of understanding. For instance many that were being healed and thanking God soon forgot their former condition
As Jesus would say “Go and sin no more” and the fact is sometimes or even most times it is that illness or pain that is actually helping that person reach out to God so often healing them physically doesn't help them spiritually so I(By the power of God) stopped healing people but recently I have done it in some cases so I've learned to have discretion.
God permitted me to do many more things that If I were to say He didn't exist or didn't communicate with people I would be utterly lying.
BD you wrote:
Quote I keep telling you it is not about names per se if that were true there would only be a single name. Perhaps you can explain why, if it is the same god that muslims and christians worship, and it does not matter what you call it, Indonesian muslims have been setting churches on fire in an attempt to stop christians using the word allah?
http://www.stuff.co.nz/world….tension
Stuart
Quote (Stu @ Jan. 13 2010,16:44) BD you wrote: Quote I keep telling you it is not about names per se if that were true there would only be a single name. Perhaps you can explain why, if it is the same god that muslims and christians worship, and it does not matter what you call it, Indonesian muslims have been setting churches on fire in an attempt to stop christians using the word allah?
http://www.stuff.co.nz/world….tension
Stuart
Just proves its the same God Stuart.
Quote (karmarie @ Jan. 13 2010,17:41) Quote (Stu @ Jan. 13 2010,16:44) BD you wrote: Quote I keep telling you it is not about names per se if that were true there would only be a single name. Perhaps you can explain why, if it is the same god that muslims and christians worship, and it does not matter what you call it, Indonesian muslims have been setting churches on fire in an attempt to stop christians using the word allah?
http://www.stuff.co.nz/world….tension
Stuart
Just proves its the same God Stuart.
You can't prove anything about gods, but that was not the question, was it!Stuart
Quote (Stu @ Jan. 13 2010,16:44) BD you wrote: Quote I keep telling you it is not about names per se if that were true there would only be a single name. Perhaps you can explain why, if it is the same god that muslims and christians worship, and it does not matter what you call it, Indonesian muslims have been setting churches on fire in an attempt to stop christians using the word allah?
http://www.stuff.co.nz/world….tension
Stuart
Most likely because the Muslims feel like the Christians are calling Allah “Triune”It is not right to burn the churches though
(They are) those who have been expelled from their homes in defiance of right,- (for no cause) except that they say, “our Lord is Allah.. Did not Allah check one set of people by means of another, there would surely have been pulled down monasteries, churches, synagogues, and mosques, in which the name of Allah is commemorated in abundant measure. Allah will certainly aid those who aid his (cause);- for verily Allah is full of Strength, Exalted in Might, (able to enforce His Will).
So ALLAH will surely assist those who do what is right.
Sorry got that wrong about Indonesia. The firebombing muslims are in Malaysia. Close, but not quite the same!
Stuart
Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 13 2010,17:49) Quote (Stu @ Jan. 13 2010,16:44) BD you wrote: Quote I keep telling you it is not about names per se if that were true there would only be a single name. Perhaps you can explain why, if it is the same god that muslims and christians worship, and it does not matter what you call it, Indonesian muslims have been setting churches on fire in an attempt to stop christians using the word allah?
http://www.stuff.co.nz/world….tension
Stuart
Most likely because the Muslims feel like the Christians are calling Allah “Triune”It is not right to burn the churches though
(They are) those who have been expelled from their homes in defiance of right,- (for no cause) except that they say, “our Lord is Allah.. Did not Allah check one set of people by means of another, there would surely have been pulled down monasteries, churches, synagogues, and mosques, in which the name of Allah is commemorated in abundant measure. Allah will certainly aid those who aid his (cause);- for verily Allah is full of Strength, Exalted in Might, (able to enforce His Will).
So ALLAH will surely assist those who do what is right.
Boy will those firebombing muslims feel really stupid when allah brings down the full might of his wrath against them for their injustice towards others.Oh, wait, he doesn't do justice, does he.
Stuart
Only parts of the video are in English, but you don’t need a translation for most of it: the gist is very clear.
The blogger talking about 5min 20sec is highlighting the problem exactly. She says “where is the leadership” that indicates how muslims should behave? Good question! What are the clerics busy doing? They are spending their energy pressurising what used to be a modern, secular government into extending further the concessions that it has already made to islamists such as its institutionalisation of sharia. Have we heard the story before of appeasement followed by invasion with arms held out in salute before? Godwin’s Law prevents me from naming it! Meantime those who say this is not their idea of islam are being bullied back into the dark ages by these islamist thugs.
What advice would you give BD? When a christian uses the words ‘yahweh’ or ‘jehovah’ would you respond that actually it is the same god as allah? And then when the christian does use the word and apply it to part of their trinity, would you then say, uh hang on actually that is not the same as allah, you better not say that?
People’s lives are being put at risk, and their nation’s constitution is being stretched because of YET MORE manufactured islamic offense.
What has caused the ‘death of Malaysia’ as one man put it?
Islam.
Stuart
Quote (Stu @ Jan. 13 2010,18:25) Only parts of the video are in English, but you don’t need a translation for most of it: the gist is very clear. The blogger talking about 5min 20sec is highlighting the problem exactly. She says “where is the leadership” that indicates how muslims should behave? Good question! What are the clerics busy doing? They are spending their energy pressurising what used to be a modern, secular government into extending further the concessions that it has already made to islamists such as its institutionalisation of sharia. Have we heard the story before of appeasement followed by invasion with arms held out in salute before? Godwin’s Law prevents me from naming it! Meantime those who say this is not their idea of islam are being bullied back into the dark ages by these islamist thugs.
What advice would you give BD? When a christian uses the words ‘yahweh’ or ‘jehovah’ would you respond that actually it is the same god as allah? And then when the christian does use the word and apply it to part of their trinity, would you then say, uh hang on actually that is not the same as allah, you better not say that?
People’s lives are being put at risk, and their nation’s constitution is being stretched because of YET MORE manufactured islamic offense.
What has caused the ‘death of Malaysia’ as one man put it?
Islam.
Stuart
Actually I wouldn't tell somebody calling God Jehovah or Yahweh is incorrect because it is correct. I would tell them it is the Same God as Allah as that would also be correct.If their usage of the information is not correct it is not for me to do anything other than to convey the correct information.
The Quran says the same thing that a Muslim is only to convey the message.
So if they dispute with thee, say: “I have submitted My whole self to Allah and so have those who follow me.” And say to the People of the Book and to those who are unlearned: “Do ye (also) submit yourselves?” If they do, they are in right guidance, but if they turn back, Thy duty is to convey the Message; and in Allah.s sight are (all) His servants.
( سورة آل عمران , Aal-e-Imran, Chapter #3, Verse #20)So Shu'aib left them, saying: “O my people! I did indeed convey to you the messages for which I was sent by my Lord: I gave you good counsel, but how shall I lament over a people who refuse to believe!”
( سورة الأعراف , Al-Araf, Chapter #7, Verse #93)So Salih left them, saying: “O my people! I did indeed convey to you the message for which I was sent by my Lord: I gave you good counsel, but ye love not good counsellors!”
( سورة الأعراف , Al-Araf, Chapter #7, Verse #79)If then they run away, We have not sent thee as a guard over them. Thy duty is but to convey (the Message). And truly, when We give man a taste of a Mercy from Ourselves, he doth exult thereat, but when some ill happens to him, on account of the deeds which his hands have sent forth, truly then is man ungrateful!
( سورة الشورى , Ash-Shura, Chapter #42, Verse #48)I will tell you if there is someone violating someone elses right to worship they are not following the guidance set forth in the Quran.
There are cultures everywhere doing what they should not be doing.
I am a bit relieved to see you use the word should there.
However, what about “there are muslims everywhere doing what they should not be doing, thinking that those things are part of islam”?
I have read some of the koranic justifications given by terrorists and they make perfect rational sense to me. I have not forgotten that you have posted other verses that contradict their interpretation, but these are the problems as I see it:
1. those who claim their violence is inspired by the koran distinguish between conditional and unconditional sura: that is, when there is ambiguity and contradiction, they decide on a kind of
hierarchy of sura, and the one that says you should slay non-believers where you find them applies all the time because they are in a perpetual state of jihad which they consider to mean a war against god's enemies.2. The net effect of what muslims do is more relevant than the sum total of what they say.
3. I still have not seen you justify YOUR interpretation as being correct and theirs incorrect.
I guess you would reject the hadiths parts of this, but are you saying that a muslim is not islamic if they follow those other bits? After all the probity of the sura is not necessarily much better than the hadiths: mohammad wrote nothing himself, and presumably couldn't read what his followers had written either.
From here:
<a href="http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Atlanta-Law–Politics-Examiner~y2009m11d20-Actual-words-of-Koran-justify-murder-the
-Bible-does-not” target=’_blank’>http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-….oes-not“The following passage [is] from “Reliance of the Traveler,” a widely distributed manual of Islamic law produced by al-Azhar University in Egypt, the most authoritative interpreters of theology and sharia jurisprudence in Sunni Islam, the dominant tradition among the world's Muslims:”
Jihad means to war against non-Muslims, and, is etymologically derived from the word, mujahada, signifying warfare to establish the religion [of Islam]…The scriptural basis for jihad is such Koranic verses as “Fighting is prescribed for you” (Koran 2:216); “Slay them wherever you find them” (Koran 4:89); “Fight the idolators utterly” (Koran 9:36); and such hadiths [sayings of the Prophet] as the one related by (Sahih) Bukhari and (Sahih) Muslim that the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) said: “I have been commanded to fight people until they testify that there is no God but Allah and that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, and perform the prayer, and pay zakat. If they say it, they have saved their blood and possessions from me, except for the rights of Islam over them. And the final reckoning is with Allah”; and the hadith by (Sahih) Muslim, “To go forth in the morning or evening to fight in the path of Allah is better than the whole world and everything in it.”
This blogger
http://www.arguewitheveryone.com/blogs….an.html
describes Osama Bin Laden's justification:
In his 1996 “Declaration of War Against The Americans Occupying the Land of the Two Holy Places”, Osama bin Laden quotes Qur’anic suras 3:145, 47:4-6, 2:154, 9:14, 47:19, 8:72 and the infamous “Verse of the Sword”, sura 9:5. As one can see, the Qur’an provided him with ample, theological justification for committing mass murder. He reiterated his deep conviction that Allah had ordered him to slaughter thousands of innocent people in his 2003 sermon, given on the first day of the Muslim celebration, Eid al-Adha (Feast of Sacrifice): “Praise be to Allah, who revealed the Verse of the Sword to his servant and messenger, the Prophet Muhammad, in order to establish truth and abolish falsehood.”
You say allah has communicated to you. Well Osama Bin Laden claims exactly the same thing.
I guess as mohammad was slaying his way across the Arabian Peninsula he did not really work quite hard enough on being clear about who should be slayed and who shouldn't.
These cult leaders like mohammad really should take more responsibility for the massacres done in their names, don't you think. If they are serious about starting a new belief system and converting everyone to it perhaps it should be a little more robustly expressed. Unless your interpretation is wrong and indeed mohammad did set standards of speaking with a forked tongue while he used brutality to win cowering converts.
Submission equals peace. That is quite disgusting when you think about it.
Loud, shouty extremists push Malaysia towards international shame and a Dark Age mentality while moderates with their alternative interpretation of the same book stand by and cry shame, and allah does what about it? Perhaps allah likes the brutality.
Stuart
Quote (Stu @ Jan. 14 2010,08:25) I am a bit relieved to see you use the word should there. However, what about “there are muslims everywhere doing what they should not be doing, thinking that those things are part of islam”?
I have read some of the koranic justifications given by terrorists and they make perfect rational sense to me. I have not forgotten that you have posted other verses that contradict their interpretation, but these are the problems as I see it:
1. those who claim their violence is inspired by the koran distinguish between conditional and unconditional sura: that is, when there is ambiguity and contradiction, they decide on a kind of
hierarchy of sura, and the one that says you should slay non-believers where you find them applies all the time because they are in a perpetual state of jihad which they consider to mean a war against god's enemies.2. The net effect of what muslims do is more relevant than the sum total of what they say.
3. I still have not seen you justify YOUR interpretation as being correct and theirs incorrect.
I guess you would reject the hadiths parts of this, but are you saying that a muslim is not islamic if they follow those other bits? After all the probity of the sura is not necessarily much better than the hadiths: mohammad wrote nothing himself, and presumably couldn't read what his followers had written either.
From here:
<a href="http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Atlanta-Law–Politics-Examiner~y2009m11d20-Actual-words-of-Koran-justify-murder-the-Bible-does-not” target=”_blank”>http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-….oes-not
“The following passage [is] from “Reliance of the Traveler,” a widely distributed manual of Islamic law produced by al-Azhar University in Egypt, the most authoritative interpreters of theology and sharia jurisprudence in Sunni Islam, the dominant tradition among the world's Muslims:”
Jihad means to war against non-Muslims, and, is etymologically derived from the word, mujahada, signifying warfare to establish the religion [of Islam]…The scriptural basis for jihad is such Koranic verses as “Fighting is prescribed for you” (Koran 2:216); “Slay them wherever you find them” (Koran 4:89); “Fight the idolators utterly” (Koran 9:36); and such hadiths [sayings of the Prophet] as the one related by (Sahih) Bukhari and (Sahih) Muslim that the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) said: “I have been commanded to fight people until they testify that there is no God but Allah and that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, and perform the prayer, and pay zakat. If they say it, they have saved their blood and possessions from me, except for the rights of Islam over them. And the final reckoning is with Allah”; and the hadith by (Sahih) Muslim, “To go forth in the morning or evening to fight in the path of Allah is better than the whole world and everything in it.”
This blogger
http://www.arguewitheveryone.com/blogs….an.html
describes Osama Bin Laden's justification:
In his 1996 “Declaration of War Against The Americans Occupying the Land of the Two Holy Places”, Osama bin Laden quotes Qur’anic suras 3:145, 47:4-6, 2:154, 9:14, 47:19, 8:72 and the infamous “Verse of the Sword”, sura 9:5. As one can see, the Qur’an provided him with ample, theological justification for committing mass murder. He reiterated his deep conviction that Allah had ordered him to slaughter thousands of innocent people in his 2003 sermon, given on the first day of the Muslim celebration, Eid al-Adha (Feast of Sacrifice): “Praise be to Allah, who revealed the Verse of the Sword to his servant and messenger, the Prophet Muhammad, in order to establish truth and abolish falsehood.”
You say allah has communicated to you. Well Osama Bin Laden claims exactly the same thing.
I guess as mohammad was slaying his way across the Arabian Peninsula he did not really work quite hard enough on being clear about who should be slayed and who shouldn't.
These cult leaders like mohammad really should take more responsibility for the massacres done in their names, don't you think. If they are serious about starting a new belief system and converting everyone to it perhaps it should be a little more robustly expressed. Unless your interpretation is wrong and indeed mohammad did set standards of speaking with a forked tongue while he used brutality to win cowering converts.
Submission equals peace. That is quite disgusting when you think about it.
Loud, shouty extremists push Malaysia towards international shame and a Dark Age mentality while moderates with their alternative interpretation of the same book stand by and cry shame, and allah does what about it? Perhaps allah likes the brutality.
Stuart
A lot of your post was based on hearsay and speculation.The fact is The Quran only ever talks about fighting in the context of War. When it speaks of such things it does not say that we are in a constant state of war it says clearly that if they fight you you have permission to fight them back just like any people who defend themselves.
It also says that if they cease their agression against you that you should cease your agression also. This is what the Quran says.
Muhammad did not initiate conflict in the Arabian peninsula he defended himself and the Muslims that were with him defended themselves.
I don't know if Allah spoke to bin laden at any time but GOD may have communicated with him. I know many people who tell me God communicated with them but they didn't follow what God told them.
When God communicates with you, you can decide not to listen and if that is the case you simply eventually lose The Guidance. Do you know the history of bin laden or Afghanistan and how America trained them and helped them defeat Russia?
Did you know we had a former alliance and was responsible for assisting the Taliban into power? Some things you think you know are far more complex than you know.
When I see something terrible occur I just ask is there any thing I could do or whatever but I don't claim to know the inner complexities of issues I am not fully informed of.
Have you ever seen a guy and a girl fighting on the street and think I am going to help that girl, well sometimes another guy comes along and decides to jump on the guy fighting the girl and the girl gets upset with the person trying to help her and ends up hurting the person that tried to save her.
My point is what you think you know or see is not always correct.
Imagine a guy bangs on your door asking for help because he's been shot and is bleeding bad so you do all you can to help him and keep him alive. Then you get a call that your mom and daughter have both been raped and killed and the guy got away but he was shot by the police and is wounded and you realize that is the same guy that you have been with supporting and motivating, even forming a bond with.
Things are not always how they appear
Stu, so do you support the invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan?
Yes it is sad that in Malaysia things like this are happening. It is sad that countries like Iraq were invaded, It is also sad that Haiti was hit with a deadly earthquake yesterday.
Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 12 2010,23:40) Of course most people who believe in anything are gullible, then there are those that really dig in and find out the truth these are the ones that WITNESS THE REAL. Who are those people? Are they Hindu? Pagan? Jain? Buddhist? Muslim? Christian? Baha'i? Because ther eare mamny in all of the above who claim what they believe is “real”.
Of course, you say they all believe in the same god (even though there is little alike between their gods), so they must all have “witnessed the real”.
But only Islam has the “real reality”, right?
Quote I was exactly like you I was a Christian growing up simply because that's what I was told I was and even when I started studying I tried different denominations but the underlying fact was there was no confirmation for my belief and so I became Atheistic although deep inside it's all still there but just unconfirmed. I did not try different denominations, so you were not “exactly like me”. And I did not believe simply because I was told, I believed because I did. People make the unconscious decision to believe in something, and that is how it works. Some people are more skeptical than others but we all believe in many things.
Quote I wanted to disprove God so I went on a quest to do so
I studied many of the sciences, philosophies and critical thinking In-fact I realized that if there was no God I could also become a very succesful person because I could negotiate and mentally dominate at will knowing I was “free” to do so. I could seduce woman knowing that true disbelief in God entails wanting to enjoy the pleasures of this life by all means.Bullhockey. If you respect life and other people, than you don't need some god looking over your shoulder to keep you in line. With statements like the above, I say you were not really an atheist — you just thought you were.
Quote Think about it, if this is your one and only life you should get whatever you feel you want as safely as possible. This shows your negative points, not mine. With such an approach to life, I suppose I can see why some people need to believe a sky fairy is keeping them in line, because it seems you do not have a lick of self control.
I do not feel life is about “getting whatever you feel you want”. That is selfish. Life, to me, is about teaching and sharing with others, helping our children learn the true values in life, and how to survive so that they can continue the same. Its about finding joy but not doing so at the sake of others. It is indeed about living a full life, but within the boundaries of a civil society.
Quote As I went further and further God started showing me things and odd enough God started doing something amazing. I started feeling energy in my hands and the energy could extend beyond me and I didn't know what it was nor did I care I just wanted to find away to utilize this phenomenon to make money, friends or whatever and I did but the funny thing was One day a friend of mine had a headache and I said I bet I can make it go away and I placed my hand above her head and within seconds she told me her migraine went away.
Pretty soon I was helping people in all sorts of ways and many kept saying and thanking God, I looked into the possibility of physics and electromagnetic energy and action at a distance(Spooky physics) and even Quantum teleportation.
But then it kept intensifying and I started knowing what was wrong with the person before they would tell me on one occasion a young lady told me her mother had been sick in bed for months she was afraid she would pass soon the compassion I felt was so great I simply hugged her and told her to go and give this hug from me to your mom and tell her I love her, she thought it was weird but she did it anyway
a day or two later this young lady returned with her mother in vibrant health in a few weeks later she was back shopping, dating and living her life.
I started realizing that it wasn't me at all and it didn't even matter if they had faith or what their religion was and the distance became less and less important
This went on for quite sometime even a small dog was raised from death but I fell in love with everything I would try to bring a dead bug or bee back to life sometimes I could and sometimes I couldn't usually depending on the extent of the length of their death or extent of injury.
At some point I knew for a fact that it was God and then God started communicating with me because at one point the Power of it all was a bit overwhelming and also I went to another point of understanding. For instance many that were being healed and thanking God soon forgot their former condition
As Jesus would say “Go and sin no more” and the fact is sometimes or even most times it is that illness or pain that is actually helping that person reach out to God so often healing them physically doesn't help them spiritually so I(By the power of God) stopped healing people but recently I have done it in some cases so I've learned to have discretion.
God permitted me to do many more things that If I were to say He didn't exist or didn't communicate with people I would be utterly lying.
This is a very sad commentary on your life, IMHO. You needed to believe in some god to stop being so self-centered and selfish. Thank goodness there are people out there that don't need to believe in imaginary tyrants to behave amongst us other human beings.BD
Quote A lot of your post was based on hearsay and speculation.
I note reading below, that you have not demonstrated what was speculation or hearsay, you have just given your opinion. I reject your assertion: I have raised good points and supported them with references.Quote The fact is The Quran only ever talks about fighting in the context of War. When it speaks of such things it does not say that we are in a constant state of war it says clearly that if they fight you you have permission to fight them back just like any people who defend themselves.
But these people say that they ARE in a constant state of war, and their derivation of the word jihad clearly backs that up.Quote It also says that if they cease their agression against you that you should cease your agression also. This is what the Quran says. Muhammad did not initiate conflict in the Arabian peninsula he defended himself and the Muslims that were with him defended themselves.
I think we both know that is bollocks. That “aggression” is expressed as a rejection of the invitation to convert to islam. That is exactly what happened with mohammad. I have already given you the relevant quotes.Quote I don't know if Allah spoke to bin laden at any time but GOD may have communicated with him. I know many people who tell me God communicated with them but they didn't follow what God told them.
Well Bin Laden IS doing what he claims god told him to do. You can’t be critical of that, given what you have written about how convinced you are that god has communicated with you.Quote When God communicates with you, you can decide not to listen and if that is the case you simply eventually lose The Guidance. Do you know the history of bin laden or Afghanistan and how America trained them and helped them defeat Russia? Did you know we had a former alliance and was responsible for assisting the Taliban into power? Some things you think you know are far more complex than you know.
Sure. Hence jokes like ‘we know Saddam has weapons, we have the receipts’, but now you are suggesting that things done in the name of religion are actually things done in the name of politics. Of course I KNOW that there is no divine involvement here, and indeed these are all human conflicts done for political reasons, but we are not talking about what I BELIEVE, we are discussing the motives of violent jihadists and whether their justifications hold water. Osama Bin Laden is not concerned about gaining more land or water or for his people, whoever they are, he is upset that “muslim” land is, in his view at least, occupied by people who do not respect his religion. This is religion-political, but not a conventional basis for warfare. He has a very clear koranic argument for blowing people up, and I don’t see any islamic moderate with a good counter-argument. Islam is at a stalemate, standing in front of the still smoking gun that is mohammad’s violence against others.Quote When I see something terrible occur I just ask is there any thing I could do or whatever but I don't claim to know the inner complexities of issues I am not fully informed of. Have you ever seen a guy and a girl fighting on the street and think I am going to help that girl, well sometimes another guy comes along and decides to jump on the guy fighting the girl and the girl gets upset with the person trying to help her and ends up hurting the person that tried to save her. My point is what you think you know or see is not always correct. Imagine a guy bangs on your door asking for help because he's been shot and is bleeding bad so you do all you can to help him and keep him alive. Then you get a call that your mom and daughter have both been raped and killed and the guy got away but he was shot by the police and is wounded and you realize that is the same guy that you have been with supporting and motivating, even forming a bond with. Things are not always how they appear.
As a collective, we have a well-developed response to this situation. The man is entitled to hospital treatment at our collective expense (whether it be through insurance or a public health system like we have in NZ) and then we are entitled to see him answer for his murder and rape in court. Of course it would be illegal for you to not do anything to help a critically injured man, and especially illegal to do anything like hasten his death. I think those laws are the right way of going about it. Difficult situation, pretty clear ethical pathway. Are you suggesting that muslims would deny treatment for the alleged criminal?I think this is a red herring, though. Sure the situation in Afghanistan is complicated, and the US has acted for immediate convenience ahead of principle there, and elsewhere too, but you can still make a stand about how people behave towards one another, regardless of what political motives they might have.
Jews and muslims have been at loggerheads ever since there were muslims. I would suggest that both sides are full of people who have little idea about the origins of the conflict but have just been born and raised in it. Just like in Northern Ireland it was institutional conflict, with no rationality behind it, the original offense long since forgotten. Not even the establishment of Israel really should have been the cause, because that is a nominal assignment in any case. No, the fuel is religious and racial hatred and political involvement by others.
The koran is used as justification (as if that is a good reason to do anything!). What can you do about it?
Maybe muslims should reconsider whether they need a book of mythology that tells them to submit, whether or not a god is involved.
Maybe ‘moderate’ muslims could make a bit more noise of the ‘not in my name’ kind.
Maybe they could damage the violent jihadis the most by actually renouncing islam altogether. There is no point in me protesting, as a non-believer in islamic mythology I am of no significance to them, even if I am a fellow human occupying the same planet. If 500 million muslims simply walked away in disgust, that would have a significant impact on the murderous ones.
But then maybe thinking for yourself, and taking a radical stand for justice are not really for people who have demonstrated their herd instinct and capitulated to ‘submission’.
Stuart
Quote (kejonn @ Jan. 14 2010,11:51) Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 12 2010,23:40) Of course most people who believe in anything are gullible, then there are those that really dig in and find out the truth these are the ones that WITNESS THE REAL. Who are those people? Are they Hindu? Pagan? Jain? Buddhist? Muslim? Christian? Baha'i? Because ther eare mamny in all of the above who claim what they believe is “real”.
Of course, you say they all believe in the same god (even though there is little alike between their gods), so they must all have “witnessed the real”.
But only Islam has the “real reality”, right?
Quote I was exactly like you I was a Christian growing up simply because that's what I was told I was and even when I started studying I tried different denominations but the underlying fact was there was no confirmation for my belief and so I became Atheistic although deep inside it's all still there but just unconfirmed. I did not try different denominations, so you were not “exactly like me”. And I did not believe simply because I was told, I believed because I did. People make the unconscious decision to believe in something, and that is how it works. Some people are more skeptical than others but we all believe in many things.
Quote I wanted to disprove God so I went on a quest to do so
I studied many of the sciences, philosophies and critical thinking In-fact I realized that if there was no God I could also become a very succesful person because I could negotiate and mentally dominate at will knowing I was “free” to do so. I could seduce woman knowing that true disbelief in God entails wanting to enjoy the pleasures of this life by all means.Bullhockey. If you respect life and other people, than you don't need some god looking over your shoulder to keep you in line. With statements like the above, I say you were not really an atheist — you just thought you were.
Quote Think about it, if this is your one and only life you should get whatever you feel you want as safely as possible. This shows your negative points, not mine. With such an approach to life, I suppose I can see why some people need to believe a sky fairy is keeping them in line, because it seems you do not have a lick of self control.
I do not feel life is about “getting whatever you feel you want”. That is selfish. Life, to me, is about teaching and sharing with others, helping our children learn the true values in life, and how to survive so that they can continue the same. Its about finding joy but not doing so at the sake of others. It is indeed about living a full life, but within the boundaries of a civil society.
Quote As I went further and further God started showing me things and odd enough God started doing something amazing. I started feeling energy in my hands and the energy could extend beyond me and I didn't know what it was nor did I care I just wanted to find away to utilize this phenomenon to make money, friends or whatever and I did but the funny thing was One day a friend of mine had a headache and I said I bet I can make it go away and I placed my hand above her head and within seconds she told me her migraine went away.
Pretty soon I was helping people in all sorts of ways and many kept saying and thanking God, I looked into the possibility of physics and electromagnetic energy and action at a distance(Spooky physics) and even Quantum teleportation.
But then it kept intensifying and I started knowing what was wrong with the person before they would tell me on one occasion a young lady told me her mother had been sick in bed for months she was afraid she would pass soon the compassion I felt was so great I simply hugged her and told her to go and give this hug from me to your mom and tell her I love her, she thought it was weird but she did it anyway
a day or two later this young lady returned with her mother in vibrant health in a few weeks later she was back shopping, dating and living her life.
I started realizing that it wasn't me at all and it didn't even matter if they had faith or what their religion was and the distance became less and less important
This went on for quite sometime even a small dog was raised from death but I fell in love with everything I would try to bring a dead bug or bee back to life sometimes I could and sometimes I couldn't usually depending on the extent of the length of their death or extent of injury.
At some point I knew for a fact that it was God and then God started communicating with me because at one point the Power of it all was a bit overwhelming and also I went to another point of understanding. For instance many that were being healed and thanking God soon forgot their former condition
As Jesus would say “Go and sin no more” and the fact is sometimes or even most times it is that illness or pain that is actually helping that person reach out to God so often healing them physically doesn't help them spiritually so I(By the power of God) stopped healing people but recently I have done it in some cases so I've learned to have discretion.
God permitted me to do many more things that If I were to say He didn't exist or didn't communicate with people I would be utterly lying.
This is a very sad commentary on your life, IMHO. You needed to believe in some god to stop being so self-centered and selfish. Thank goodness there are people out there that don't need to believe in imaginary tyrants to behave amongst us other human beings.
I hate to tell you this Kejonn but without God and an afterlife existing there is no logical reason to be “moral”Because morality cannot exist without an Authoritive standard of what it is to be Moral. If there is no absolute judge and no absolute judgement then all morality is arbitrary and meaningless.
If there were no God why in the world would I not be selfish and self-centered in the extreme?
Why would you respect life? what would be the point of that? It sounds nice but someone who loves life a little more than you might want to take all of what you have so that they can have more and they wouldn't even worry about if it was right or wrong because if God doesn't exist they can't be wrong or right they could just be living or dead.
Without God what “true values in life” are there?
STU already has admitted that as an atheist he believes that Morality is a human construct and if that is true life is Amoral
Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 13 2010,20:48) I hate to tell you this Kejonn but without God and an afterlife existing there is no logical reason to be “moral” So theists say. But the very logical reason that we have “morals” (which are subjective) is the survival of our species. The Golden Rule ensures that we live another day. Without it, we'd be wild beasts, killing one another for the sport of it. No god is holding us back, our very survival is.
And afterlife means nothing. It is imaginary. It holds no weight. What is here and now is the true test.
Quote Because morality cannot exist without an Authoritive standard of what it is to be Moral. Malarkey. The “authoritative standard” is our fellow humans in our societies. No sky daddy that works on ancient precepts and behavior.
Quote If there is no absolute judge and no absolute judgement then all morality is arbitrary and meaningless. For you. You've already shown that you are selfish without the fear of a god. Some of us have enough care and compassion for our fellow man — for the other inhabitants of our planet — to not disrespect life so easily.
Quote If there were no God why in the world would I not be selfish and self-centered in the extreme? Because of your fear of the god you have created in your own mind. That god does not have to exist, just your imaginings of who he could be if he was real.
Quote Why would you respect life? what would be the point of that? It sounds nice but someone who loves life a little more than you might want to take all of what you have so that they can have more and they wouldn't even worry about if it was right or wrong because if God doesn't exist they can't be wrong or right they could just be living or dead. Without God what “true values in life” are there?
Life itself. If I'm lucky, I will live to be 90+ like my grandmother, or 80+ like my dad who is still alive and working 5 days a week! My dad has been an atheist all of his life, and he has been a good man. Not the best father, not the best husband, but overall, he has not gone out of his way to harm anyone. IOW, he did the best he could as a human. He has made it all of this time without the fear of some sky daddy, what is his excuse?
Quote STU already has admitted that as an atheist he believes that Morality is a human construct and if that is true life is Amoral
If Stu said that, then all it means is that we as humans are the only ones who even care to make a distinction. The rest of the animal world does what it takes to survive, even if that means helping their fellows. They do not sit and ponder about it (as far as we know), they just do it. They do not need to imagine some higher power to keep them in line.Quote (karmarie @ Jan. 14 2010,11:10) Stu, so do you support the invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan?
Yes it is sad that in Malaysia things like this are happening. It is sad that countries like Iraq were invaded, It is also sad that Haiti was hit with a deadly earthquake yesterday.
Afghanistan: yes. Although it did not have official sanction of the UN Security Council it was a widely supported international action that I think was justified ethically. The Taliban was certainly harbouring terrorists and making the region, and the world, unsafe. They did invade with the cooperation of the UN-recognised government of Afghanistan, the Northern Alliance.Iraq: no. Regime change by an idiot of a president whose father failed at regime change during the last invasion, and his UK poodle Tony Blair, against international law and backed by lies about imminent military threats and involvement with terrorism on the part of Saddam Hussein was an offense to decent moral people everywhere.
Saddam was a monster and the Kurds were suffering appallingly, but he was effectively a secular leader with control over Iraq, and was not protecting terrorists, with whom he had no sympathy. There were no weapons either. Now we have a breeding ground for terrorists where none existed before, and Afghanistan is in stalemate itself possibly because Iraq has consumed so much of the available resources.
Bush and Blair are war criminals in my opinion.
Of the four countries you mentioned, the only one not suffering from the effects of islamic violent jihad is Haiti. Because they had an earthquake! Iraq wasn't suffering from jihadist violence until Bush and Blair went in. Afghanistan still has Taliban-inspired insurgencies but they are better-off since Bush went in. Malaysia is following the pattern of what islamists have done elsewhere. Give a muslim extremist an inch and he incites others to violently steal the whole mile.
What do you think?
Stuart
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