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Dear Cubes,

As for teachers, the Holy Spirit quickens to us the truth when God decides to reveal it to us. There is no monopoly on the truth. That you are correct in saying. Unfortunately, truth is a rare commodity in today's world. The reason being most adorn the love of sin more then the love of God. Many boast they are believers with their lips, but in their hearts is darkness. If it were not do, the world would be getting better instead of getting worse. When you see good becoming evil and evil becoming good, you know that the day of the Lord is at hand and we have arrived.

October 17, 2006 at 2:40 am#30652

Participant

Quote (heiscomingintheclouds @ Oct. 17 2006,08:07)

How many here believe that water baptism saves?

Jhn 12:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.

I am not a farmer, or a scientist and so can't tell you the intricacies of why this is but I realize that various things are involved beyond my understanding, the least of which is that ears of corn grow out of a seed of corn… that he also causes rain, sunshine and the wind to aid this process along.

My point being that it's a concert of things working together in harmony that lead to a desired result. e.g. the body of Christ being many members of one body, with each part depending on the other by the will of God.

So yes, I believe in water baptism as a part of my salvation process because the Lord commanded it, and yet, not water baptism exclusively.

I believe that God is, and yet, not through belief alone…

October 17, 2006 at 2:40 am#30653

Participant

It is the grace of God that saves us Nick. Should we get baptized by water? How can one have Christ in his heart and not want to fulfill all righteousness. Should we receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit? How can one have Christ in his heart and not want to fulfill all righteousness.

If a man dies after being born again, but before being baptized of water, will he still go to heaven. There is nothing in scripture that says he will not. Will a man not go to heaven if he does not receive the baptism of the Holy Ghost? There is nothing in scripture that says he will not. Yet, the point is, when a man gets saved, born again, he should seek both. Why, because it fulfills all righteousness. It is being obedient to God.

October 17, 2006 at 2:50 am#30654

Participant

Dear Cubes,

As long as one does not teach that it is water that saves, and it is faith, then fine. You believe what you like. The thing is, there are those who teach that water baptism is what saves us. This is something NIck and I have been over a few times. I have asked him not to teach this. It is not water baptism that saves and this type of doctrine can cost the souls of men.

The point is, if your heart is not right, and you do not repent completely, will your salvation be valid? You must put it all on the cross. You must be completely submissive to God's will. Many go to the cross and do not repent fully. We must give up the world. To hold the world, to hold the carnal, is death.

October 17, 2006 at 2:57 am#30657

Participant

Quote (heiscomingintheclouds @ Oct. 17 2006,08:40)

I agree.

To repent and seek the Lord in earnest requires obediece and God in his grace and power, honors that on our behalf. Also in actuality, given the ratio presented in scripture, I believe that few die BEFOREHAND, in that we are given opportunity to obey Christ, and to worship and serve God.

So although there are exemptions given extenuating circumstances that are best known and judged by God, many who rely on those exemptions may not necessarily qualify if it turns out they were trying to outsmart God, as the bible says he cannot be mocked.

October 17, 2006 at 3:00 am#30658

Participant

Quote (heiscomingintheclouds @ Oct. 17 2006,03:40)

Hi H,
Off the point but where does scripture say men go to heaven?
What do you make of the three witnesses of 1Jn 5.

“6This is the One who came by water and blood, Jesus Christ; not with the water only, but with the water and with the blood It is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth.

7For there are three that testify:

8the Spirit and the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.”

They are witnesses for Jesus, and for us.

They all seem to be vital and not optional in the eyes of Him to Whom we have to give account.

October 17, 2006 at 3:04 am#30660

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 17 2006,08:32)

And in another post I said
“So in the context of the whole bible baptism ALONE does not save you.
Neither does
repentance ALONE
faith ALONE
Spirit baptism ALONE

ALL SAVE US”

Hi Nick,

I would be more apt to put all that and some in a container titled, “faith.”

In that in its basic form, faith is simply believing in God. However, its complex form involves aspects of all that, including the righteous works by those who where noted to have faith in scripture.

October 17, 2006 at 3:08 am#30661

Participant

I am noticing that you do not make use of the quotation function in your posts. Especially since you no longer have editing rights at the moment, and since you feel that others cannot be trusted not to change the contents of their posts, why not start using this feature so we don't have to go through this whole thing again?!

Just a thought.

October 17, 2006 at 3:40 am#30664

Participant

Quote (heiscomingintheclouds @ Oct. 17 2006,08:26)

Cubes, I will answer your question after you answer mine. Is Nick your teacher?

I am a disciple of Jesus Christ so the Father is my foremost and primary teacher through his Christ by the scriptures.

Having said that, all who preach the gospel of God are my teachers and fellow students. I consider Nick to be among them, and yet we do have differences on some things… and there are things I am yet to understand, and questions I don't even yet know to ask.

Rom 10:15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

October 17, 2006 at 4:06 am#30665

942767

Participant

Hi Nick and H:

Before February 1980, I was an agnostic, but when my wife was going to leave me and take my then 8 year old son with her, I got on my knees and prayed “Lord if you are there, I would like for my wife and I to stay together if it is your will, but nevertheless, not my will but yours be done”. He heard me from heaven and baptized me with the Holy Spirit.

I was full of zeal wanting to share my testimony with whoever would listen. I was going to the various churches asking if I could share my testimony. I met a woman on the street and she told me that she was a pastor of a small church, and I asked her if I could come and share my testimony, and she agreed.

On the Sunday that I was going to share my testimony at her church, I felt a restraining tug from heaven trying to keep me from going, and I said, “it is the devil trying to keep me from going to witness”. I heard a voice from heaven saying, “no, I am not the devil you are the devil”. I thought I can't be the devil because I have the Holy Spirit within me.

I continued on to the church and shared my testimony. The pastor then asked me if I had been baptized in water, and I said that I had not. She told me that if I had not been baptized in water I still was not saved.

I did not think that this was right, but after reading the scriptures about the apostle Peter commanding Cornelius to be baptized in water after he had received the Holy Spirit, and 1st Peter 3:21, which states: The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:”, I thought that she must be right and so I allowed her and her husband to baptize me in water.

Later, I found out that she was in the pulpit but that she was an adulterous.

I know that it was the Lord trying to keep me from going to her church because I would accept the false doctrine that water baptism is essential to salvation. We are saved by “Faith”, and water baptism is a work in response to that faith. We know that Faith without works is dead. (James 2:17)

If a man is on his death bed, and believes God's testimony regarding His Son Jesus, and asks God to forgive him, God will forgive him if his repentance is sincere. I used to think that I would have to get him up and baptize him, because of the scripture which states: “Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God”. The water here is not water baptism but the word of God (Ephesians 5:26, “That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word”.) No doubt we should be baptized in water as soon as possible after we believe. I we do not believe or if we believe and have not repented water baptism is of no merit. It is symbolic of our union with our Lord Jesus in his death, burial and resurrection. (Col. 2:12) It is not water baptism that saves us but it is symbolic of salvation if it is done by Faith with a repentant heart. Of course, it is the blood that washes our sins away, but I do not understand that as a baptism.

The thief who was crucified with Jesus said: “Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. And Jesus said unto him, 'verily I say unto thee, today shalt thou be with me in paradise”. (Luke 23:42-43) There was no water bapitism here.

October 17, 2006 at 5:52 am#30671

Participant

Hi 94,
Thanks for the testimony.
You said
” The water here is not water baptism but the word of God (Ephesians 5:26, “That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word”.

Eph 5
” 25Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

26That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

27That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle”

And it fits in a way with Jn 15
” 3Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. “

But both scriptures relate to the washing of the church, the body of Christ.

First each individual has to become a member of that church, they must be reborn of water and the Spirit to enter that kingdom.

October 17, 2006 at 9:41 pm#30700

Participant

Dear 942767,

You will not convince Nick that it is not water that saves us. He will continue to believe that and so will the others that follow him. And I don't care as long as they do not teach that it is water that saves. That it is faith that saves.

They do not believe their salvation is complete until a man is saved, baptized by water and baptized by the Holy Spirit. This will not keep them from the kingdom of God. What matters is that they know that the heart must be made right and this is done by faith. If they believe that their life is salvation growing unto righteousness by doing the works of righteousness, they can do this, and it does not effect the faith. Just as long as it is made clear that a man must be born again.

Now, I am only referring to their personal convictions. For when it comes to scripture, their stand is unfounded. And how you and I view scripure speaks of the way things are to transpire. And that is that a man is born again through faith in Jesus Christ. And that alone saves him. Yet, to fulfill all righteousness, the man is baptized by water and that of the Holy Spirit as required to do to in order to put on the full armor of the faith. Yet, if a man is lack in water or the baptism of the Holy Spirit after being saved, no where in scripture does it say he will lose his salvation because of it. Yet, it greatly increases the odds that he could, since he has not put on the full armor of the faith.

The main thing is, and we should all agree on is, when a man is born again, they should be taken and baptized by water and they should be baptized in the Holy Spirit. For if we are going to go out to battle, it is better to have the full armor of God upon us in our battles against principalities in high places.

October 17, 2006 at 10:29 pm#30716

Participant

Hi H,
You keep claiming to know when God forgives men and cleanses their cup with no evidence to back it up.
You would be wiser to leave the matters of God to Him and concentrate of fulfilling the righteous demands God makes of His servants.

October 17, 2006 at 10:34 pm#30718

Participant

And you would do well to ask Jesus into your heart Nick.

October 17, 2006 at 11:04 pm#30728

Participant

Hi H,
If he was dwelling in me then I would be abiding in the Word.
As much as I am able I strive to I do that.
What about you?

October 18, 2006 at 12:02 am#30733

Participant

As you said, if he was dwelling in you.

I know he dwells in me. I know that no good thing comes by me, but through him. That is what it is all about. Becoming less of ourselves and allowing Christ to work through us, perfecting us. If you were of the same spirit, you would know this.

October 18, 2006 at 12:24 am#30734

942767

Participant

Hi Nick:

We are baptized in water in response to our Faith, and so, it is not baptism that saves us it is our faith. Water baptism is symbolic of our union with our Lord Jesus in his death, burial and resurrection, and we demonstrate that we believe by being baptized.

When we hear the Word of God regarding salvation through our Lord Jesus, and believe the Word in sincerity with a repentant heart, we are born of the Word (water). When we receive the Holy Ghost we are born of the Spirit.

Except for Cornelius, those who received the Holy Ghost in the scriptures did not receive it until after they were baptized in water (Acts 2:37-41, 8:12-17, 8:29-39) , but Cornelius was saved when he received the Holy Ghost. (Acts 10:42-47) His sins had been forgiven. Also, I showed you through my testimony that I received the Holy Ghost prior to being baptized. Yes, we should be baptized when we believe whether we have received the Holy Ghost prior to being baptized or not, and we know faith without works is dead. And our obedience to God's Word does not stop with baptism.

I disagree with Heiscoming. The scripture states: “Except a man be born or water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God”. (John 3:5) But I believe that the water here refers to the Word of God, and not to water baptism.

Those who were striving to obey God under the Law of Moses were born of water, but they did not receive the Holy Spirit, but they will receive the Holy Spirit when they are raised from the dead when Jesus comes for the church.

October 18, 2006 at 12:50 am#30735