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No, but I have encountered other writings with no bloodshed and eternal damnation. But I suppose they are wrong because they are not included in the Catholic or Protestant canon of scripture.
Quote Doubt can lead one in search of truth so not all doubt is bad. Some doubt that what they are learning in school is true and decide for themselves that the world must have a devine Creator, and they go on to find God. So in this way, doubt turned out well and fine. –mandy
Yes, sometimes doubt is good. But sometimes, bad.
JAMES 1:5-8
“So, if any one of YOU is lacking in wisdom, let him keep on asking God, for he gives generously to all and without reproaching; and it will be given him. But let him keep on asking in faith, not doubting at all, for he who doubts is like a wave of the sea driven by the wind and blown about. In fact, let not that man suppose that he will receive anything from Jehovah; he is an indecisive man, unsteady in all his ways.”EPHESIANS 4:14
“in order that we should no longer be babes, tossed about as by waves and carried hither and thither by every wind of teaching by means of the trickery of men, by means of cunning in contriving error.”Just concerned that you seem to switch gears so quickly, once believing very very badly about tow, but then, being sad at his leaving.
Quote Well, everything happens for a reason
Sometimes the reason things happen is because Satan is the “god of this world,” the “ruler of the world” and is “misleading the entire inhabited earth.”david
JOHN 17:17
“Sanctify them by means of the truth; your word is truth.”JAMES 1:18
“Because he willed it, he brought us forth by the word of truth, for us to be certain firstfruits of his creatures.”The phrase: “the word of Jehovah” occurs 210 times in the Bible, roughly. The Bible is the word of God. When Jesus said that God's word is truth, he meant that all the expressions from God's inspired word is true, and therefore, not in error.
Quote To the people of Jesus' day, Paul was mixing some elements with paganism in with the message of Judaism. –kejonn
I've heard you say this before. What were the “elements with paganism”?
kejonn, Yes, these scriptures do seem to condradict, UNTIL we look at what they are actually discussing.
Faith and Works.
Works of the MOSAIC LAW, which included such things as sacrificial offerings, purifications, and circumcision, did not make a person righteous. (Ro 3:20; 4:1-10; Ga 3:2)
ROMANS 3:20
“Therefore by works of law no flesh will be declared righteous before him, for by law is the accurate knowledge of sin.”ROMANS 4:1-10
“That being so, what shall we say about Abraham our forefather according to the flesh? If, for instance, Abraham were declared righteous as a result of works, he would have ground for boasting; but not with God. For what does the scripture say? “Abraham exercised faith in Jehovah, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” Now to the man that works the pay is counted, not as an undeserved kindness, but as a debt. On the other hand, to the man that does not work but puts faith in him who declares the ungodly one righteous, his faith is counted as righteousness. Just as David also speaks of the happiness of the man to whom God counts righteousness apart from works: “Happy are those whose lawless deeds have been pardoned and whose sins have been covered; happy is the man whose sin Jehovah will by no means take into account.” Does this happiness, then, come upon circumcised people or also upon uncircumcised people? For we say: “His faith was counted to Abraham as righteousness.” Under what circumstances, then, was it counted? When he was in circumcision or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.”GALATIANS 3:2
“This alone I want to learn from YOU: Did YOU receive the spirit due to works of law or due to a hearing by faith?”Yet, the disciple James—who is not discussing works of Mosaic Law—says “a man is to be declared righteous by works, and not by faith alone” (Jas 2:24), for there must be practical works that demonstrate one’s faith, giving proof of it. (Compare Mt 7:21-27; Eph 2:8-10; Jas 1:27; 2:14-17; 4:4.)
MATTHEW 7:21-27
““Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. Many will say to me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ And yet then I will confess to them: I never knew YOU! Get away from me, YOU workers of lawlessness. “Therefore everyone that hears these sayings of mine and does them will be likened to a discreet man, who built his house upon the rock-mass. And the rain poured down and the floods came and the winds blew and lashed against that house, but it did not cave in, for it had been founded upon the rock-mass. Furthermore, everyone hearing these sayings of mine and not doing them will be likened to a foolish man, who built his house upon the sand. And the rain poured down and the floods came and the winds blew and struck against that house and it caved in, and its collapse was great.””EPHESIANS 2:8-10
“By this undeserved kindness, indeed, YOU have been saved through faith; and this not owing to YOU, it is God’s gift. No, it is not owing to works, in order that no man should have ground for boasting. For we are a product of his work and were created in union with Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared in advance for us to walk in them.”JAMES 1:27
“The form of worship that is clean and undefiled from the standpoint of our God and Father is this: to look after orphans and widows in their tribulation, and to keep oneself without spot from the world.”JAMES 2:14-17
“Of what benefit is it, my brothers, if a certain one says he has faith but he does not have works? That faith cannot save him, can it? If a brother or a sister is in a naked state and lacking the food sufficient for the day, yet a certain one of YOU says to them: “Go in peace, keep warm and well fed,” but YOU do not give them the necessities for [their] body, of what benefit is it? Thus, too, faith, if it does not have works, is dead in itself.”JAMES 4:4
“Adulteresses, do YOU not know that the friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever, therefore, wants to be a friend of the world is constituting himself an enemy of God.”For example, Abraham had works that proved his faith, such as his willingness to offer up Isaac. Rahab also proved her faith by her works of hiding the Israelite spies.—Heb 11:17-19; Jas 2:21-25.
HEBREWS 11:17-19
“By faith Abraham, when he was tested, as good as offered up Isaac, and the man that had gladly received the promises attempted to offer up [his] only-begotten [son], although it had been said to him: “What will be called ‘your seed’ will be through Isaac.” But he reckoned that God was able to raise him up even from the dead; and from there he did receive him also in an illustrative way.”JAMES 2:21-25
“Was not Abraham our father declared righteous by works after he had offered up Isaac his son upon the altar? You behold that [his] faith worked along with his works and by [his] works [his] faith was perfected, and the scripture was fulfilled which says: “Abraham put faith in Jehovah, and it was counted to him as righteousness,” and he came to be called “Jehovah’s friend.” YOU see that a man is to be declared righteous by works, and not by faith alone. In the same manner was not also Ra′hab the harlot declared righteous by works, after she had received the messengers hospitably and sent them out by another way?”For centuries the Law that God gave through Moses had required Jewish worshipers to make specific sacrifices and offerings, to observe festival days, and to conform to dietary and other requirements. Such “works of law,” or simply “works,” were no longer necessary after Jesus provided the ultimate sacrifice.—Romans 10:4.
But the fact that these works performed under the Mosaic Law were replaced by Jesus’ superlative sacrifice did not mean that we can ignore the Bible’s instructions. It says: “How much more will the blood of the Christ . . . cleanse our consciences from [the older] dead works that we may render sacred service to the living God?”—Hebrews 9:14.
How do we “render sacred service to the living God”? Among other things, the Bible tells us to combat the works of the flesh, to resist the world’s immorality, and to avoid its snares. It says: “Fight the fine fight of the faith,” put off “the sin that easily entangles us,” and “run with endurance the race that is set before us, as we look intently at the Chief Agent and Perfecter of our faith, Jesus.” And the Bible urges us not to ‘get tired and give out in our souls.’—1 Timothy 6:12; Hebrews 12:1-3; Galatians 5:19-21.
We do not earn salvation by doing these things, for no human could ever do enough to merit such an astounding blessing. We are not worthy of this magnificent gift, though, if we fail to demonstrate our love and obedience by doing the things that the Bible says God and Christ want us to do. Without works to demonstrate our faith, our claim to follow Jesus would fall far short, for the Bible clearly states: “Faith, if it does not have works, is dead in itself.”—James 2:17.
Quote (david @ Jan. 22 2008,16:39) Quote Doubt can lead one in search of truth so not all doubt is bad. Some doubt that what they are learning in school is true and decide for themselves that the world must have a devine Creator, and they go on to find God. So in this way, doubt turned out well and fine. –mandy
Yes, sometimes doubt is good. But sometimes, bad.
JAMES 1:5-8
“So, if any one of YOU is lacking in wisdom, let him keep on asking God, for he gives generously to all and without reproaching; and it will be given him. But let him keep on asking in faith, not doubting at all, for he who doubts is like a wave of the sea driven by the wind and blown about. In fact, let not that man suppose that he will receive anything from Jehovah; he is an indecisive man, unsteady in all his ways.”EPHESIANS 4:14
“in order that we should no longer be babes, tossed about as by waves and carried hither and thither by every wind of teaching by means of the trickery of men, by means of cunning in contriving error.”Just concerned that you seem to switch gears so quickly, once believing very very badly about tow, but then, being sad at his leaving.
Quote Well, everything happens for a reason
Sometimes the reason things happen is because Satan is the “god of this world,” the “ruler of the world” and is “misleading the entire inhabited earth.”david
That's a great point you raise David.You know Mandy, when Towshab first arrived I was certain I witnessed a spiritual reaction of aversion in your posts. In my experience sometimes the Holy Spirit will manifest Himself this way in the presence of evil (refering to the spirit Tow carries). What do you think about that?
Quote (Is 1:18 @ Jan. 22 2008,18:11) You know Mandy, when Towshab first arrived I was certain I witnessed a spiritual reaction of aversion in your posts. In my experience sometimes the Holy Spirit will manifest Himself this way in the presence of evil (refering to the spirit Tow carries). What do you think about that?
Hi Isaiah and David,Yes, my words have been thrown back at me so many times now I've lost count.
I believe that it is easy enough for anyone to be deceived. Perhaps I was filled with pride? You know what preceeds a fall, right? I really don't know to be honest with you. I felt as though I had heard from the Lord, but then I doubted. It happens. I am not immune from doubt – none of us are – even the most devote here have admitted to doubt in their walks with the Lord.
Yes, my first reaction seemed to come from a place that seemed most offended and it almost seemed to self-propel from my mouth before I really had time to think about it. I've been given “words of knowledge” before and just figured that was the case with Tow. Quite right, maybe it was the case with Tow. Nevertheless, something also deep within me wanted to make sure that what he was saying was false. I wanted to make sure that I wasn't just speaking from a place of fear. Fear has motivated many a Christian to believe and do things they wouldn't naturally do (please don't ask me to elaborate on this – you can use your minds to think of a few examples without me spelling it out). I just wanted to be certain……
However, being “certain” has evaded us all, I believe. In the end, we walk by faith and not by sight. I'm in the process of working this out now. God is faithful to his children even when they are not faithful to him. Praise his holy name!
Quote (Not3in1 @ Jan. 22 2008,18:27) I felt as though I had heard from the Lord, but then I doubted. It happens. I am not immune from doubt – none of us are – even the most devote here have admitted to doubt in their walks with the Lord.
So very true Mandy.
In spite of what apologists may make of the final words of Jesus, I think that He displayed doubt. Even with His very personal relationship with God He asked “why hast thou forsaken me?” In my mind that clearly displays doubt.Tim
Quote (david @ Jan. 21 2008,23:47) Quote To the people of Jesus' day, Paul was mixing some elements with paganism in with the message of Judaism. –kejonn
I've heard you say this before. What were the “elements with paganism”?
- 1Co 8:4 Therefore concerning the eating of things sacrificed to idols, we know that there is no such thing as an idol in the world, and that there is no God but one.
1Co 8:5 For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords,
1Co 8:6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.
1Co 8:7 However not all men have this knowledge; but some, being accustomed to the idol until now, eat food as if it were sacrificed to an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled.
1Co 8:8 But food will not commend us to God; we are neither the worse if we do not eat, nor the better if we do eat.Show me where that would hold up to OT scrutiny. In fact, it goes against what Paul was told to teach
- Act 15:19 “Therefore it is my judgment that we do not trouble those who are turning to God from among the Gentiles,
Act 15:20 but that we write to them that they abstain from things contaminated by idols and from fornication and from what is strangled and from blood.Paul was a great compromiser. He was willing to compromise to spread the gospel so he allowed people to make certain compromises to make it more palatable to them. That is what he really had against Judaizers — they were much more strict in their observances.
Hi KJ,
Acts 15
13And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me:14Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
15And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
16After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
17That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.
18Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.
19Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
20But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
So James in blessed accord with the apostles wrote to the new gentile converts some simple traditions and rules to help guide their first steps. Paul was a man of wisdom and deep spiritual understanding, one accustomed to meat and not milk, who knew that such superficial matters were not of real importance to God given that faith would guide individuals in every circumstance they face. are you wiser than Paul?
Since all we know of Paul comes from the NT, and we know little of his life, who can say? I do not claim to be wiser than Paul but when you elevate any man on a pedestal, you lower God a notch (im man's eyes, not in reality) too.
To tell you the truth, I agree with Paul personally. Although I would not sacrifice to idols or be associated with such practices (this was much more prevalent in Paul's time obviously), I see Paul as a progessive in his time. Therefore, don't get me wrong in my attitude towards Paul because I see Paul as someone who was letting his faith evolve. Truth be told, Paul brought God to the Gentiles so its hard to fault him.
Yet that does not mean Paul was perfect. He had faults like any other person and some of his teaching showed some bias towards his own character. All people have some bias.
Quote (TimothyVI @ Jan. 22 2008,22:52) Quote (Not3in1 @ Jan. 22 2008,18:27) I felt as though I had heard from the Lord, but then I doubted. It happens. I am not immune from doubt – none of us are – even the most devote here have admitted to doubt in their walks with the Lord.
So very true Mandy.
In spite of what apologists may make of the final words of Jesus, I think that He displayed doubt. Even with His very personal relationship with God He asked “why hast thou forsaken me?” In my mind that clearly displays doubt.Tim
Good point, Tim.I know that some are afraid to admit that Jesus may have doubted, but personally I find comfort in knowing that Jesus was indeed made like me in every way. Besides, what is faith if you have proof? Was it required of Jesus to have faith in God? Interesting question…
Quote (kejonn @ Jan. 22 2008,23:55) Quote (david @ Jan. 21 2008,23:47) Quote To the people of Jesus' day, Paul was mixing some elements with paganism in with the message of Judaism. –kejonn
I've heard you say this before. What were the “elements with paganism”?
- 1Co 8:4 Therefore concerning the eating of things sacrificed to idols, we know that there is no such thing as an idol in the world, and that there is no God but one.
1Co 8:5 For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords,
1Co 8:6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.
1Co 8:7 However not all men have this knowledge; but some, being accustomed to the idol until now, eat food as if it were sacrificed to an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled.
1Co 8:8 But food will not commend us to God; we are neither the worse if we do not eat, nor the better if we do eat.Show me where that would hold up to OT scrutiny. In fact, it goes against what Paul was told to teach
- Act 15:19 “Therefore it is my judgment that we do not trouble those who are turning to God from among the Gentiles,
Act 15:20 but that we write to them that they abstain from things contaminated by idols and from fornication and from what is strangled and from blood.Paul was a great compromiser. He was willing to compromise to spread the gospel so he allowed people to make certain compromises to make it more palatable to them. That is what he really had against Judaizers — they were much more strict in their observances.
this to me is HUGE.he taught something different.
I read Paul and much of what I read has great beauty.
BUT IT IS DIFFERENT.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 22 2008,12:44) Hi KJ,
Shall we rely on you to point out “the faults and false teachings of Paul”?
No, I simply express my thoughts. You do with them what you please. You can totally ignore them or dwell on them, I should have no influence on your faith. But in return, do not expect to have an influence on mine unless you can bring something worth pondering.
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