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Quote (kejonn @ Jan. 21 2008,02:49) So you're saying questions in Christianity are a bad thing?
I'm saying you have to have faith in anything you believe. And once you have tasted of God's Spirit and loose that faith then you cannot regain that faith.Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Did you have faith in what you believed while in the Catholic church? Why did you start questioning it?
1Jo 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
1Jo 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
1Jo 2:21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.
1Jo 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
1Jo 2:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.
1Jo 2:24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
1Jo 2:25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.
1Jo 2:26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.
Quote (kenrch @ Jan. 21 2008,02:42) Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.Are the above scriptures correct? I Pray NOT! It seems to be saying that their is NO use trying to “once again” renew some one who has tasted of God. Their is NO USE in telling them AGAIN of the principles of God and His Son. Because they have had a relationship with God by His Spirit.
This being true then why entertain their questions of doubt. Is their goal to “once again find Christ”? Or is it to instill doubt!
HI Ken,
You say that you pray that these scriptures are not correct
and then go on to say “this being true. It sounds like you would like for your interpretation to be true.First and foremost, Heb 6:4-6 can not mean that you lose salvation
If it does then there is no place for the prodical son in the bible. The prodical son is all about God forgiving our falling away and accepting us back.
Jesus also said that we should forgive 70 X 7. Would he do less?The literal translation as found in the Greek interlineary concordance goes like this:
6:4 unable for the ones once being enlightened………………………
6:6 and being fallen again, to be up-newizing (renewing) into repentance crucifying again to selves the son of God“Parapipto means to fall beside, inadvertently. Denoting a side-falling and not a conscious and deceitful falling into sin as would be expressed by 'parabaino' , to willfully transgress.” As to the words 'renew' and 'again' these words are important to know in light of the context. The word 'renew' is the Greek word 'anakainzo' which means to renew, qualitatively new. In reference to Hebrews 6:6 this would be saying that a Christian is unable to have a 'new or qualitatively' different repentance toward Christ, since that would mean Christ's death was not sufficient the first time. In other words this is saying it is impossible for a believer to be born again twice since that would mean the sacrifice of Jesus was not good enough the first time and would have to do it again and thus putting Jesus to open shame. These verses are indicating that a person who is born again does not need to be born again a second time, or that he is going to lose his salvation, but actually that he is secure in Christ.
There will be those who fall away or get side tracked as all of us do, but remember the promise of God, “that He who began the good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ.” (Philippians 1:6)
For those who do fall down and get caught in sins they cannot lose their salvation and regain it again, for that would mean Jesus would then have to die again which contradicts the Scriptures entirely
Tim
Quote (kejonn @ Jan. 20 2008,10:07) Did you have faith in what you believed while in the Catholic church? Why did you start questioning it?
Why did you leave Catholicism Ken? Did you start questioning its practices?Quote (TimothyVI @ Jan. 21 2008,03:40) Quote (kenrch @ Jan. 21 2008,02:42) Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.Are the above scriptures correct? I Pray NOT! It seems to be saying that their is NO use trying to “once again” renew some one who has tasted of God. Their is NO USE in telling them AGAIN of the principles of God and His Son. Because they have had a relationship with God by His Spirit.
This being true then why entertain their questions of doubt. Is their goal to “once again find Christ”? Or is it to instill doubt!
HI Ken,
You say that you pray that these scriptures are not correct
and then go on to say “this being true. It sounds like you would like for your interpretation to be true.First and foremost, Heb 6:4-6 can not mean that you lose salvation
If it does then there is no place for the prodical son in the bible. The prodical son is all about God forgiving our falling away and accepting us back.
Jesus also said that we should forgive 70 X 7. Would he do less?The literal translation as found in the Greek interlineary concordance goes like this:
6:4 unable for the ones once being enlightened………………………
6:6 and being fallen again, to be up-newizing (renewing) into repentance crucifying again to selves the son of God“Parapipto means to fall beside, inadvertently. Denoting a side-falling and not a conscious and deceitful falling into sin as would be expressed by 'parabaino' , to willfully transgress.” As to the words 'renew' and 'again' these words are important to know in light of the context. The word 'renew' is the Greek word 'anakainzo' which means to renew, qualitatively new. In reference to Hebrews 6:6 this would be saying that a Christian is unable to have a 'new or qualitatively' different repentance toward Christ, since that would mean Christ's death was not sufficient the first time. In other words this is saying it is impossible for a believer to be born again twice since that would mean the sacrifice of Jesus was not good enough the first time and would have to do it again and thus putting Jesus to open shame. These verses are indicating that a person who is born again does not need to be born again a second time, or that he is going to lose his salvation, but actually that he is secure in Christ.
There will be those who fall away or get side tracked as all of us do, but remember the promise of God, “that He who began the good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ.” (Philippians 1:6)
For those who do fall down and get caught in sins they cannot lose their salvation and regain it again, for that would mean Jesus would then have to die again which contradicts the Scriptures entirely
Tim
Tim you are confusing those who have backslid to those who have rejected Christ.Many many many have backslid BUT repented and were forgiven Because they never Rejected Christ.
I CERTAINLY do not want any to perish! I pray all are confused and have NOT rejected Jesus as the Messiah.
You do not believe scripture? It's ok with me. Do as you will. YOU are signed up with the Antichrist aren't you? You do have the door to your mind open for doubt. Jesus will not stay if you allow doubt in your heart.
2Co 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
I pray you are doing the above scripture.
I'm not going to dance with anyone who denies Jesus to be the Messiah.
Do you still believe Jesus IS the Messiah, Tim?
Quote (kenrch @ Jan. 21 2008,04:21) Do you still believe Jesus IS the Messiah, Tim?
Absolutely I do.
I do still question things like whether God will only hear my prayers if done in His name and other things like that.
I do only question whether every word in the bible is the innerent word of God.I do not question whether Jesus is the Messiah because I know in my heart that it was Jesus that brought me to God, just as it was God that brought me to Jesus.
Tim
Quote (TimothyVI @ Jan. 21 2008,06:17) Quote (kenrch @ Jan. 21 2008,04:21) Do you still believe Jesus IS the Messiah, Tim?
Absolutely I do.
I do still question things like whether God will only hear my prayers if done in His name and other things like that.
I do only question whether every word in the bible is the innerent word of God.I do not question whether Jesus is the Messiah because I know in my heart that it was Jesus that brought me to God, just as it was God that brought me to Jesus.
Tim
IMO, doubting what is considered orthodoxy comes when you finally just admit that the bible is full of errors and even forgies.It starts with recognizing 1 John 5:7 is a forgery as well as the last chapter of Mark and the story of the adultress in John 8.
Then you research and discover that NO TWO manuscripts are exactly alike out of the thousands that exists.
This bothers you on the inside either you stop searching and accept that somehow our modern bibles are “close enough” and just have faith in the “general” over all message or you don't stop because something inside you says you will never have the “true” peace if you don't really really really know the truth or come as close as possible to it.
You begin to research scholary works on this subject. Studying text alterations and forgiers. You begin to learn exactly how the canon was formed. You begin to read the early church fathers.
It then dawns on you that doctrines and scriptures changed with each new generation of Christians since after Christ.
Seriously, doctrines and writings considered orthodox became heresy in LATER generations.
THE FORMATION OF THE CANON WAS BASED ON WHAT TEXT AGREED WITH AN ALREADY ALTERED AND EVOLVED CHURCH DOGMA.
Then you learn about the gnostics, ebionites and nazarenes and what they believed. You realized that these groups actually lived in palestine while the “orthodox” lived in greece and rome.
You research the essenes and realize how much chrisitianity resembles their beliefs. You research how simular the ebionites and nazarenes doctrines are with the essenes. It begins to dawn on you that Jesus was an essene. You find out that pratically ALL of modern scholarship agrees.
You eventually start to question Paul, whom all these groups considered an apostate from the message of Christ and his TWELVE disciples. You actually read what Paul thought of the TWELVE in the bible.
Paul basically says that he took NOTHING from them. Which seems obvious since he did not preach anything Jesus said. He considered them just regular men and was tired of them being referred to as pillars or super apostles.
WAKE UP PAUL TAUGHT A DIFFERENT GOSPEL!
You then do a study on comparitive religions and find out that he combined roman mystery religions with essene and pharisee teachings.
I don't think Paul was evil or wrong on everything. But he DID go off an preach a different message.
So what was the message of Jesus? We need to look to James the Just to answer that.
Just like in the days of old, there used to be a saying:
“Look to James the Just!”
Hi SOL,
Paul was a faithful and powerful servant of God, effective in speech and action.
He is proven and you are not.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 21 2008,07:32)
What evidence are you using?Spiritual insight?
Raw hard data demonstrated through textual criticism, history and archeology?
Paul's own writing that say he is correct. In other words Paul is right because he says he is right?
I could use the same tactic against you by saying
James was a faithful and powerful servant of God, effective in speech and action.
He is proven and you are not.Hi SOL,
We believe in the Word of God which includes the Christ-enlightened teaching of Paul.
You would rather set another, more suitable platform for the faith you want to preach?Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 21 2008,08:06) Hi SOL,
We believe in the Word of God which includes the Christ-enlightened teaching of Paul.
You would rather set another, more suitable platform for the faith you want to preach?
Please answer me Nick?I know what you believe, my question is:
WHY?
1 Peter 3:15
15But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect,
In the spirit of this verse I ask you:
“Why do you belive the RCC canon is perfect without forgeries or additions?”
Hi SOL,
It is ALL TRUTH including Paul's letters, and what is chosen suffices for the ability to have discussion.
There are some few additions and alterations but the originals are pure.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 21 2008,08:23) Hi SOL,
It is ALL TRUTH including Paul's letters, and what is chosen suffices for the ability to have discussion.
There are some few additions and alterations but the originals are pure.
With all do respect.I know you believe this.
My question is:
WHY?
Hi SOL,
Because the Spirit of God reverberates with the Word warming my heart and reminding me of the teachings of ChristQuote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 21 2008,08:38) Hi SOL,
Because the Spirit of God reverberates with the Word warming my heart and reminding me of the teachings of Christ
I get that same warmth from my position.You see the empass we are at?
Hi SOL,
Not really.
We can refer back to ALL that is written.
You have to remove parts like Paul's teachings and add sympathetic writings.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 20 2008,15:52) Hi SOL,
Not really.
We can refer back to ALL that is written.
You have to remove parts like Paul's teachings and add sympathetic writings.
But there are gnostic writings that are written. The Koran is written. the Book of Mormon is written. L. Ron Hubbard's works on Scientology are written.So what you are saying is that you believe in the Protestant canon of books that are written, right?
Hi KJ,
http://www.rotten.com/library/religion/gnosticism/
Some light rreading but many sites are accessible to learn of this bizzarre beliefQuote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 21 2008,09:26) Hi KJ,
http://www.rotten.com/library/religion/gnosticism/
Some light rreading but many sites are accessible to learn of this bizzarre belief
It is true that SOME gnostics held beliefs simular to your article.However, just as many denominations existed under “orthodoxy” the same can be said about the gnostics, nazarenes and ebionites.
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