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Nick,
Last I looked, your name was not in my copy of the Holy Bible. Is there a translation with your name in it? Then you don't offer me anything but the ability to disagree with me. Anyone can do that, I do it with others myself.
But you don't think scripture is inspired, you think it is tha actual words of the living God. If that had been true, no variations would exist. God is perfect. Since the variations do exist, and men decided which books went into our bibles, I would dare say the bible is perfect. Unless you think God is that variable?
- Jas 1:17 Every good thing given and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shifting shadow.
Hi KJ,
Do you not think God would require us to need His Spirit to discern the problems men have given to His teachings?Quote (kejonn @ Jan. 23 2008,07:13) Nick, Last I looked, your name was not in my copy of the Holy Bible. Is there a translation with your name in it? Then you don't offer me anything but the ability to disagree with me. Anyone can do that, I do it with others myself.
But you don't think scripture is inspired, you think it is tha actual words of the living God. If that had been true, no variations would exist. God is perfect. Since the variations do exist, and men decided which books went into our bibles, I would dare say the bible is perfect. Unless you think God is that variable?
- Jas 1:17 Every good thing given and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shifting shadow.
James is one of my favorite books in the bible.Yet, Martin Luther tried to remove it from the canon and he called it “an epistle of straw”.
SOL,
Yes, even back when the canon was being formulated, they wanted to leave James out because it sounded too Jewish. It is said that the only reason they decided to include it was because it was written by the brother of Jesus.
Did Martin Luther say that before or after he started hating Jews?
Quote (kejonn @ Jan. 23 2008,07:22) SOL, Yes, even back when the canon was being formulated, they wanted to leave James out because it sounded too Jewish. It is said that the only reason they decided to include it was because it was written by the brother of Jesus.
Did Martin Luther say that before or after he started hating Jews?
I don't know, but yes he was very anti-semitic.Quote (kejonn @ Jan. 23 2008,07:13) Nick, Last I looked, your name was not in my copy of the Holy Bible. Is there a translation with your name in it? Then you don't offer me anything but the ability to disagree with me. Anyone can do that, I do it with others myself.
But you don't think scripture is inspired, you think it is tha actual words of the living God. If that had been true, no variations would exist. God is perfect. Since the variations do exist, and men decided which books went into our bibles, I would dare say the bible is perfect. Unless you think God is that variable?
- Jas 1:17 Every good thing given and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shifting shadow.
Hi KJ,
What I do is show you what is written.Quote (TimothyVI @ Jan. 22 2008,17:52) Quote (Not3in1 @ Jan. 22 2008,18:27) I felt as though I had heard from the Lord, but then I doubted. It happens. I am not immune from doubt – none of us are – even the most devote here have admitted to doubt in their walks with the Lord.
So very true Mandy.
In spite of what apologists may make of the final words of Jesus, I think that He displayed doubt. Even with His very personal relationship with God He asked “why hast thou forsaken me?” In my mind that clearly displays doubt.Tim
Tim,
I do not believe He was displaying doubt but was proclaiming the lead verse of the 22nd Psalm which He was at that moment fullfilling (same as He did at the beginning, of His ministry, in Luke 4:17 The scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed to him. Unrolling it, he found the place where it is written: 18 “The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, to release the oppressed, 19 to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor. 20Then he rolled up the scroll, gave it back to the attendant and sat down. The eyes of everyone in the synagogue were fastened on him, 21 and he began by saying to them, “Today this scripture is fulfilled in your hearing.”)Wm
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 22 2008,19:38) Quote (kejonn @ Jan. 23 2008,07:13) Nick, Last I looked, your name was not in my copy of the Holy Bible. Is there a translation with your name in it? Then you don't offer me anything but the ability to disagree with me. Anyone can do that, I do it with others myself.
But you don't think scripture is inspired, you think it is tha actual words of the living God. If that had been true, no variations would exist. God is perfect. Since the variations do exist, and men decided which books went into our bibles, I would dare say the bible is perfect. Unless you think God is that variable?
- Jas 1:17 Every good thing given and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shifting shadow.
Hi KJ,
What I do is show you what is written.
No, you talk about what is written in one set of books.What of the books that were written by those who claimed inspiration that did not make it into the canon? Many of the early fathers quoted from books that never made the cut. Who chose and why? So don't be so quick to hold as precious just those that were approved by the early church.
If you are brave you should check out http://earlychristianwritings.com/
I would be less concerned about the fragments of what is not in the canon than I would of what is in the canon. You can read some info on each canonical book there too.
Quote (seekingtruth @ Jan. 23 2008,12:58) Quote (TimothyVI @ Jan. 22 2008,17:52) Quote (Not3in1 @ Jan. 22 2008,18:27) I felt as though I had heard from the Lord, but then I doubted. It happens. I am not immune from doubt – none of us are – even the most devote here have admitted to doubt in their walks with the Lord.
So very true Mandy.
In spite of what apologists may make of the final words of Jesus, I think that He displayed doubt. Even with His very personal relationship with God He asked “why hast thou forsaken me?” In my mind that clearly displays doubt.Tim
Tim,
I do not believe He was displaying doubt but was proclaiming the lead verse of the 22nd Psalm which He was at that moment fullfilling (same as He did at the beginning, of His ministry, in Luke 4:17 The scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed to him. Unrolling it, he found the place where it is written: 18 “The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, to release the oppressed, 19 to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor. 20Then he rolled up the scroll, gave it back to the attendant and sat down. The eyes of everyone in the synagogue were fastened on him, 21 and he began by saying to them, “Today this scripture is fulfilled in your hearing.”)Wm
Nice post ST, you….
Quote (seekingtruth @ Jan. 23 2008,12:58) Quote (TimothyVI @ Jan. 22 2008,17:52) Quote (Not3in1 @ Jan. 22 2008,18:27) I felt as though I had heard from the Lord, but then I doubted. It happens. I am not immune from doubt – none of us are – even the most devote here have admitted to doubt in their walks with the Lord.
So very true Mandy.
In spite of what apologists may make of the final words of Jesus, I think that He displayed doubt. Even with His very personal relationship with God He asked “why hast thou forsaken me?” In my mind that clearly displays doubt.Tim
Tim,
I do not believe He was displaying doubt but was proclaiming the lead verse of the 22nd Psalm which He was at that moment fullfilling (same as He did at the beginning, of His ministry, in Luke 4:17 The scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed to him. Unrolling it, he found the place where it is written: 18 “The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, to release the oppressed, 19 to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor. 20Then he rolled up the scroll, gave it back to the attendant and sat down. The eyes of everyone in the synagogue were fastened on him, 21 and he began by saying to them, “Today this scripture is fulfilled in your hearing.”)Wm
Hi ST,That may very well be true. I like that thought.
Thank you.
None the less, David was expressing extreme doubt in that Psalm. I have no reason to fully believe that Jesus was not
expressing the same doubt by quoting scripture, which He did often. Jesus was, after all, capable of worry, concern about his ordeal to come while in the garden. He was given to the same emotions of man.Tim
The only problem I have with ppl saying he was fulfilling Psalm 22 was you make Jesus out to be going by a script. He was not an actor in a play. Its one thing to quote scripture, but another in your death throes to say to yourself “OK, gotta throw out one more quote for dramatic effect before I give up the ghost “.
Tim,
Quote Jesus was, after all, capable of worry, concern about his ordeal to come while in the garden. He was given to the same emotions of man. I agree that when it came down to it He was reluctant to do the Fathers will but even then He proved His faith with “Your will not mine”.
Quote because he who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind. 7 That man should not think he will receive anything from the Lord; 8 he is a double-minded man, unstable in all he does. The above quote is from James and I do not believe it describes Jesus.
Wm
Quote (kejonn @ Jan. 22 2008,23:55) Quote (david @ Jan. 21 2008,23:47) Quote To the people of Jesus' day, Paul was mixing some elements with paganism in with the message of Judaism. –kejonn
I've heard you say this before. What were the “elements with paganism”?
- 1Co 8:4 Therefore concerning the eating of things sacrificed to idols, we know that there is no such thing as an idol in the world, and that there is no God but one.
1Co 8:5 For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords,
1Co 8:6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.
1Co 8:7 However not all men have this knowledge; but some, being accustomed to the idol until now, eat food as if it were sacrificed to an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled.
1Co 8:8 But food will not commend us to God; we are neither the worse if we do not eat, nor the better if we do eat.Show me where that would hold up to OT scrutiny. In fact, it goes against what Paul was told to teach
- Act 15:19 “Therefore it is my judgment that we do not trouble those who are turning to God from among the Gentiles,
Act 15:20 but that we write to them that they abstain from things contaminated by idols and from fornication and from what is strangled and from blood.Paul was a great compromiser. He was willing to compromise to spread the gospel so he allowed people to make certain compromises to make it more palatable to them. That is what he really had against Judaizers — they were much more strict in their observances.
Kejonn, still not sure how Paul was mixing elements of Christianity with elements of paganism.When you take a tree that is worshiped and consecrate it to Christ, as the pope did, and call it a Christ tree, that is mixing paganism with Christianity.
Many persons before becoming Christians had been accustomed to eating meats offered to idols with a feeling of reverence for the idol. (1Co 8:7)
In so doing, these former pagans had been sharers with the demon god represented by the idol. (1Co 10:20)
Quite fittingly, therefore, by formal letter from Jerusalem, the governing body of the early Christian congregation, under the guidance of the holy spirit, forbade such formal, religious eating of meats offered to idols, thus safeguarding Christians from idolatry in this regard.—Ac 15:19-23, 28, 29.
Christians, like those living in pagan Corinth, were faced with a number of questions in this matter. Could they conscientiously go into an idol temple and eat meat if they did so with no thought of honoring the idol? And, would there be any objection to buying from the ma′kel·lon meats that had been ceremonially offered to idols? Finally, how should a Christian handle this matter when eating as a guest in someone else’s home?
Under inspiration Paul provided the Corinthian Christians with timely information to aid them in making the correct decisions. Although “an idol is nothing,” it would not be advisable for a Christian to go to an idol temple to eat meat (even though his eating was not part of a religious ceremony), because he could thereby be giving spiritually weak observers the wrong impression. Such observers might conclude that the Christian was worshiping the idol, and they could be stumbled by this. It could lead such weaker ones to the point of actually eating meats sacrificed to idols in religious ceremony, in direct violation of the decree of the governing body. There was also the danger that the Christian eater would violate his own conscience and yield to idol worship.—1Co 8:1-13.
Since the ceremonial offering of meats to idols produced no change in the meat, the Christian could, however, with a good conscience buy meat from a market that received some of its meat from religious temples.
This meat had lost its “sacred” significance. It was just as good as any other meat, and the Christian was therefore not under obligation to make inquiry respecting its origin.—1Co 10:25, 26.Furthermore, the Christian, upon being invited to a meal, did not have to make inquiry concerning the source of the meat but could eat it with a good conscience. If, however, an individual present at the meal were to remark that the meat had been “offered in sacrifice,” then the Christian would refrain from eating it to avoid stumbling others.—1Co 10:27-29.
Now, I ask where does this go against what “Paul was told to teach” as you say?
Quote Show me where that would hold up to OT scrutiny. In fact, it goes against what Paul was told to teach
It wasn't really a compromise, as much as it was being reasonable. paganism exists. How are Christians to live next to it? They are not to adopt it, or sanctify it, or celebrate it, but they must live next to it, as they live in the world.Quote (david @ Jan. 23 2008,16:06) Quote (kejonn @ Jan. 22 2008,23:55) Quote (david @ Jan. 21 2008,23:47) Quote To the people of Jesus' day, Paul was mixing some elements with paganism in with the message of Judaism. –kejonn
I've heard you say this before. What were the “elements with paganism”?
- 1Co 8:4 Therefore concerning the eating of things sacrificed to idols, we know that there is no such thing as an idol in the world, and that there is no God but one.
1Co 8:5 For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords,
1Co 8:6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.
1Co 8:7 However not all men have this knowledge; but some, being accustomed to the idol until now, eat food as if it were sacrificed to an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled.
1Co 8:8 But food will not commend us to God; we are neither the worse if we do not eat, nor the better if we do eat.Show me where that would hold up to OT scrutiny. In fact, it goes against what Paul was told to teach
- Act 15:19 “Therefore it is my judgment that we do not trouble those who are turning to God from among the Gentiles,
Act 15:20 but that we write to them that they abstain from things contaminated by idols and from fornication and from what is strangled and from blood.Paul was a great compromiser. He was willing to compromise to spread the gospel so he allowed people to make certain compromises to make it more palatable to them. That is what he really had against Judaizers — they were much more strict in their observances.
Kejonn, still not sure how Paul was mixing elements of Christianity with elements of paganism.When you take a tree that is worshiped and consecrate it to Christ, as the pope did, and call it a Christ tree, that is mixing paganism with Christianity.
Many persons before becoming Christians had been accustomed to eating meats offered to idols with a feeling of reverence for the idol. (1Co 8:7)
In so doing, these former pagans had been sharers with the demon god represented by the idol. (1Co 10:20)
Quite fittingly, therefore, by formal letter from Jerusalem, the governing body of the early Christian congregation, under the guidance of the holy spirit, forbade such formal, religious eating of meats offered to idols, thus safeguarding Christians from idolatry in this regard.—Ac 15:19-23, 28, 29.
But Paul is saying it is only a problem if if makes someone else stumble. Like drinking a beer — if doing so in someone's presence makes them stumble, do it at home instead?
Quote Christians, like those living in pagan Corinth, were faced with a number of questions in this matter. Could they conscientiously go into an idol temple and eat meat if they did so with no thought of honoring the idol? And, would there be any objection to buying from the ma′kel·lon meats that had been ceremonially offered to idols? Finally, how should a Christian handle this matter when eating as a guest in someone else’s home? Under inspiration Paul provided the Corinthian Christians with timely information to aid them in making the correct decisions. Although “an idol is nothing,” it would not be advisable for a Christian to go to an idol temple to eat meat (even though his eating was not part of a religious ceremony), because he could thereby be giving spiritually weak observers the wrong impression. Such observers might conclude that the Christian was worshiping the idol, and they could be stumbled by this. It could lead such weaker ones to the point of actually eating meats sacrificed to idols in religious ceremony, in direct violation of the decree of the governing body. There was also the danger that the Christian eater would violate his own conscience and yield to idol worship.—1Co 8:1-13.
Since the ceremonial offering of meats to idols produced no change in the meat, the Christian could, however, with a good conscience buy meat from a market that received some of its meat from religious temples.
This meat had lost its “sacred” significance. It was just as good as any other meat, and the Christian was therefore not under obligation to make inquiry respecting its origin.—1Co 10:25, 26.Furthermore, the Christian, upon being invited to a meal, did not have to make inquiry concerning the source of the meat but could eat it with a good conscience. If, however, an individual present at the meal were to remark that the meat had been “offered in sacrifice,” then the Christian would refrain from eating it to avoid stumbling others.—1Co 10:27-29.
Now, I ask where does this go against what “Paul was told to teach” as you say?
Quote Show me where that would hold up to OT scrutiny. In fact, it goes against what Paul was told to teach
It wasn't really a compromise, as much as it was being reasonable. paganism exists. How are Christians to live next to it? They are not to adopt it, or sanctify it, or celebrate it, but they must live next to it, as they live in the world.
But didn't the OT say stay away from it altogether?- Exo 23:24 “You shall not worship their gods, nor serve them, nor do according to their deeds; but you shall utterly overthrow them and break their sacred pillars in pieces.
Exo 34:12 “Watch yourself that you make no covenant with the inhabitants of the land into which you are going, or it will become a snare in your midst.
Exo 34:13 “But rather, you are to tear down their altars and smash their sacred pillars and cut down their Asherim
Exo 34:14 –for you shall not worship any other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God–
Exo 34:15 otherwise you might make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land and they would play the harlot with their gods and sacrifice to their gods, and someone might invite you to eat of his sacrifice,
Exo 34:16 and you might take some of his daughters for your sons, and his daughters might play the harlot with their gods and cause your sons also to play the harlot with their gods.
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