Adam to Abraham

[NickHassan]

Hi,
A recent post has said that Adam is condemned and cannot be saved. I do not see this written. I see not a sentence of condemnation for a man who features throughout scripture.

I see man being cast out of Eden and sentenced to work hard and later having his days shortened but otherwise scripture seems silent about their fate.

Surely those in the bosom of Abraham in Lk 16 would be those from the time of Abraham but what of those before that time?

[NickHassan]

Hi,
Rom 5.12f
“Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned-for until the Law sin was in the world;

BUT SIN IS NOT IMPUTED WHEN THERE IS NO LAW.

Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of Adam's offense, who is a type of him who is to come”

So could men be condemned before the Law?

[Proclaimer]

I would imagine that Adam's salvation depends on the way he lived the remainder of his life. Jesus died for all men I think.

[NickHassan]

Hi t8,
So you think for Adam salvation was according to works, or conscience? If sin is not imputed to one and no record is kept of it how can condemnation follow? Would you speculate, as I do, that he will be in the kingdom or should we assume otherwise?

[Proclaimer]

I am speculating here, but if a man lays a stumbling block it is woe to him. But if he repents, I would assume that the blood of Christ can cover ALL sin, with the exception of Blasphemy of the Spirt.

I am not sure that Adam blasphemed the Spirit, but I would have thought it possible that Christ's sacrifice could even redeem the very man whom sin entered into the world.

I guess that if Adam is condemned then probably all his offspring are too. That is correct on the outset, but salvation is offered to Adams offspring, so why not Adam too?

After all we are just like Adam before salvation. So if we can obtain salvation, then probably he could too.

[NickHassan]

Hi t8,
I am sure the mercy of God will extend to the one who was tested first.
He had no guidelines excepot the express instructions of God.
He had no experiences of others to learn from.
He had no Law to refer to.
He had not eaten of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil till he had decided to disobey.
Would God punish further the template man for showing we are all weak?

[NickHassan]

Hi,
Ps 32.1f
“How blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered.
How blessed is the man to whom the Lord does not impute iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no deceit”

All sin.
Some do not have sin imputed to them
Some are blessed with forgiveness.

[Proclaimer]

Genesis 3:22
And the LORD God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”

I would assume that Adam (and consequently all men) were stopped from living (as sinners) forever. What are your thoughts?

[NickHassan]

Hi t8,
I believe so. But on an earth that confines us I wonder how that could have happened.

[Cubes]

I too believe that Adam shall be saved for the afore stated reasons.  When the LORD found out that they had eaten of the tree, he was not pleased, but he didn't lose it either.  I have heard him more angry with the shenanigans of Israel and others.  Instead, he seemed to recognize their innocence,  “where are you?… who told you that you were naked? …have you eaten from the tree of which I commanded you that you should not eat?…” (Genesis 3:8f).  The kids have gotten themselves in serious trouble.  I see a Father disappointed and concerned but not one who has lost it.  He told them what was to follow and took precautionary measures to ensure things did not get worst as t8 mentions above w/ (Genesis 3:22).  And sets the plan in motion for Messiah to come and waits, along with us.

Rom 8:19   For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God.
Rom 8:20   For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope
Rom 8:21   that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.
Rom 8:22   For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now.

NASB

[NickHassan]

Hi cubes,
Yes the love of God for his firstborn man shines through and I am sure that prototype man will have been forgiven his folly. Creation would seem incomplete without him. God loved his children such as Enoch and Abraham. Should only his children benefit from his life that eventually led to salvation through Christ?

[Cubes]

Also it should be taken into consideration that although Adam and Eve disobeyed God, they were ensnared.  They faced a clever adversary and God knows this:  why else would he bear so much with us?  Obviously Satan is the father of all this but if men like Balaam would be judged for ensnaring people, how much more would Satan?

[Cubes]

When Eve bears Seth, she still has a knowledge of God leading to the name she gave. That's more than I can say for a lot of people in our generation.

Gen 4:25 And Adam knew his wife again; and she bare a son, and called his name Seth: For God, [said she], hath appointed me another seed instead of Abel, whom Cain slew.

[Proclaimer]

God offers salvation to men, and Adam was/is a man. So there is no reason for me to believe that he was exempted unless it said somewhere that he was. I cannot see a scripture that teaches this.

Also God didn't give salvation to angels. They were in God's light and created perfect. To reject that was seperation from God. They probably did the equivalent of the following:

Hebrews 6:4-6
4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit,
5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

Matthew 12:31
And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.

But God had mercy on men. We are born in sin and haven't actually rejected God's grace like these other creatures. However if a man rejects the gospel then dies, and/or blasphemes the Spirit, then he seems to be in the same situation as the demons, in that they are damned.

Did Adam reject God in the same way that the demons have? Well Adam was a new creature and probably was not aware of the full consequences of his actions. He only knew that he went against what God had said to him. “You shall not eat from that tree.”

How many times have we eaten from that tree when we knew we shouldn't have (so to speak)?

[kenrch]

Just some thoughts:

Adam was created with No sin, a perfect as perfect a human could be. God fellowshiped with Adam. He was told what not to do, and if he did then he would surely die (spiritual death). Adam had no excuse, he had all that we will have in the New Kingdom. But he CHOOSE to disobey God.

What would we have done. Adam was told Not to KNOW the differance between Good and Evil. Like telling a child don't put your finger in the fire, you will get burned. But the child doesn't KNOW THAT so the child ( like all of us) finds out the hard way.
Adam only knew GOOD or what he thought was good, after all how can you know what is good if you don't know what is evil, and vise versa.
Did God make a mistake when creating Adam? Some say God knew what Adam would do. But this would mean that God knew that He would have to send His Son to be crusified for what God already knew would happen.

When we enter the New Kingdom we will have an advantage that Adam never had. We will have LEARNED evil, and so KNOW what is good. We will know that only Our Father (who said the fire will burn) is GOOD.

Mar 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good save one, even God.

[Proclaimer]

Thanks kenrch.

Philippians 2:15
so that you may become blameless and pure, children of God without fault in a crooked and depraved generation, in which you shine like stars in the universe

[NickHassan]

Hi,
H has raised the issue of condemnation before the Law was given when men were under conscience.

[malcolm ferris]

For as in Adam all die
Even so in Christ all are made alive

All – as in everyone? I don't think so – so the ALL here refers to ALL of a certain group.
I beleive it is all the lost sheep of God.
Was Adam part of that flock that God could not lose – that He gave to Jesus to save?
I beleive so.

Clearly Adam failed to keep the Edenic covenant – bringing death upon all as a result.
So we can thank him from every disease and sickness that followed.

Adam failed to keep just one commandment in the Garden of Eden – it was a conditional covenant – based on Adam keeping his part in it.

The Eden and the Mosaic covenants are conditional.
In Eden Adam had 1 commandment to keep and failed
The grace covenant of Abraham followed this – which was an unconditional covenant.

There was nothing that Abraham had to do relative to this covanant – God told him –

“I HAVE made you a father of many nations – all nations will be blessed because of you…”

Then came the covenant called the Law – which began primarily as 10 commandments.
Now if Adam before the fall could not keep even 1 command, what hope did they have trying to keep 10?…

But thanks be to God – He gave us the New Covenant – once again an unconditional covenant – based on a finished work of God, and with no imput of our own affecting its outcome.

[NickHassan]

Hi Malcolm,
Did not Adam, by his failure, prove the weakness of the flesh without the Spirit?
Was it not bound to happen and God had to show man his total inadequacy without His help?

[NickHassan]

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