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Quote (davidbfun @ Aug. 18 2010,23:44) Good Morning Georg, Notice that the Paradise Lazarus was in was with Abraham. The Hebrews had the two places of waiting for the Judgment with one being called Paradise.
How do you come up with “Lazarus” was not the one Jesus raised from the dead. Look at the complete conversation and then look at Jesus' later actions. Then look at the Jewish leaders' actions (they sought to kill Lazarus). Also, there is only ONE Lazarus talked about in the NT and to my recollection, in no other parable is an actual name given, and Jesus usually prefaces that the story is a parable.
Jhn 12:10 But the chief priests planned to put Lazarus to death also;
Jesus ascended into Heaven into the Father's arms.
Yes I agree that Jesus is the only sacrifice for our sins.
Hbr 9:27 And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment,
Mat 12:36 “But I tell you that every careless word that people speak, they shall give an accounting for it in the day of judgment.
How do you give an accounting if you can't remember?
Jhn 5:24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
When do they pass from death into life and have Eternal Life? What does it profit me if I have eternal life and have no memory of anything prior….also, how does someone without memory get judged for their good works and bad works?
Also, most of the OT verses are questions not statements. David keeps saying that he wants to praise God and if he isn't with God what's the point?
How many times does David keep asking to be in the house of the Lord forever? How would he know the Lord if he has no recollection of anything?
The Professor
Last time I commented on this subject, I overlooked this part, I will do it now.Jhn 11:1 ¶ Now a certain man was sick, named Lazarus, of Bethany, the town of Mary and her sister Martha.
Jhn 11:2 (It was that Mary which anointed the Lord with ointment, and wiped his feet with her hair, whose brother Lazarus was sick.)
Now look at the description of this Lazarus.
Luk 16:20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
Luk 16:21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
The first Lazarus was the brother of Mary and Martha, you think they would not have cared for their brother?
Jhn 12:1 ¶ Then Jesus six days before the passover came to Bethany, where Lazarus was which had been dead, whom he raised from the dead.
Jhn 12:3 Then took Mary a pound of ointment of spikenard, very costly, and anointed the feet of Jesus, and wiped his feet with her hair: and the house was filled with the odour of the ointment.
This was expensive perfume.
Jhn 12:5 Why was not this ointment sold for three hundred pence, and given to the poor?
Why indeed, was not this perfume sold to care for Lazarus?
The Jewish leaders wanted to kill Lazarus, because he was a living witness to the teachings of Jesus.
Nowhere in the Bible does it say, you can't remember when you are resurrected. The Flesh decays, but the mind, which most people refer to as the spirit, is preserved by God.
It is not the good or bad that you did in this life that determines whether you live, or die again; but how you lived can be a hindrance; whether you will repent or not. At your resurrection, God will give you a new body, but your mind is the same as it was at your death. Ezekiel is explaining this to the Israelites.Eze. 16:49 “Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sisters Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idelness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy.”
Meaning, they did not care for the poor and needy either.
Ezekiel is referring to Sodom and the surrounding cities as sisters of Israel because of their “own” iniquities, as he is pointing out in the next verse.v. 52 “Thou also, which hast judged thy sisters, bear thine own shame for thy sins that thou hast committed more abominable than they: they are more righteous than thou: yea, be thou confounded also, and bear thy shame, in that thou hast justified thy sisters.”
In fact, he is accusing them to be worse then they. This next verse is talking about the resurrection of Sodom, Samaria, and Israel.
v. 55 “When thy sisters, Sodom and her daughters, shall return to their former estate, and Samaria and her daughters shall return to their former estate, then thou and thy daughters shall return to your former estate.”
Return to their former estate means among other things, “to bring back to a former period or condition in life”, that includes remembering everything you ever did, just as you do now.
All of us will be exactly as we were before. except with a new flesh body.
Eternal life is given after you show that you repent, and listen to the teacher, Jesus Christ, in the millennium, Acts 3:23.
David ask, “in the GRAVE”, who can praise you? no one.Georg
Quote (Baker @ Aug. 22 2010,03:48) Quote (davidbfun @ Aug. 18 2010,23:44) Good Morning Georg, Notice that the Paradise Lazarus was in was with Abraham. The Hebrews had the two places of waiting for the Judgment with one being called Paradise.
How do you come up with “Lazarus” was not the one Jesus raised from the dead. Look at the complete conversation and then look at Jesus' later actions. Then look at the Jewish leaders' actions (they sought to kill Lazarus). Also, there is only ONE Lazarus talked about in the NT and to my recollection, in no other parable is an actual name given, and Jesus usually prefaces that the story is a parable.
Jhn 12:10 But the chief priests planned to put Lazarus to death also;
Jesus ascended into Heaven into the Father's arms.
Yes I agree that Jesus is the only sacrifice for our sins.
Hbr 9:27 And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment,
Mat 12:36 “But I tell you that every careless word that people speak, they shall give an accounting for it in the day of judgment.
How do you give an accounting if you can't remember?
Jhn 5:24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
When do they pass from death into life and have Eternal Life? What does it profit me if I have eternal life and have no memory of anything prior….also, how does someone without memory get judged for their good works and bad works?
Also, most of the OT verses are questions not statements. David keeps saying that he wants to praise God and if he isn't with God what's the point?
How many times does David keep asking to be in the house of the Lord forever? How would he know the Lord if he has no recollection of anything?
The Professor
Last time I commented on this subject, I overlooked this part, I will do it now.Jhn 11:1 ¶ Now a certain man was sick, named Lazarus, of Bethany, the town of Mary and her sister Martha.
Jhn 11:2 (It was that Mary which anointed the Lord with ointment, and wiped his feet with her hair, whose brother Lazarus was sick.)
Now look at the description of this Lazarus.
Luk 16:20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
Luk 16:21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
The first Lazarus was the brother of Mary and Martha, you think they would not have cared for their brother?
Jhn 12:1 ¶ Then Jesus six days before the passover came to Bethany, where Lazarus was which had been dead, whom he raised from the dead.
Jhn 12:3 Then took Mary a pound of ointment of spikenard, very costly, and anointed the feet of Jesus, and wiped his feet with her hair: and the house was filled with the odour of the ointment.
This was expensive perfume.
Jhn 12:5 Why was not this ointment sold for three hundred pence, and given to the poor?
Why indeed, was not this perfume sold to care for Lazarus?
The Jewish leaders wanted to kill Lazarus, because he was a living witness to the teachings of Jesus.
Nowhere in the Bible does it say, you can't remember when you are resurrected. The Flesh decays, but the mind, which most people refer to as the spirit, is preserved by God.
It is not the good or bad that you did in this life that determines whether you live, or die again; but how you lived can be a hindrance; whether you will repent or not. At your resurrection, God will give you a new body, but your mind is the same as it was at your death. Ezekiel is explaining this to the Israelites.Eze. 16:49 “Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sisters Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idelness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy.”
Meaning, they did not care for the poor and needy either.
Ezekiel is referring to Sodom and the surrounding cities as sisters of Israel because of their “own” iniquities, as he is pointing out in the next verse.v. 52 “Thou also, which hast judged thy sisters, bear thine own shame for thy sins that thou hast committed more abominable than they: they are more righteous than thou: yea, be thou confounded also, and bear thy shame, in that thou hast justified thy sisters.”
In fact, he is accusing them to be worse then they. This next verse is talking about the resurrection of Sodom, Samaria, and Israel.
v. 55 “When thy sisters, Sodom and her daughters, shall return to their former estate, and Samaria and her daughters shall return to their former estate, then thou and thy daughters shall return to your former estate.”
Return to their former estate means among other things, “to bring back to a former period or condition in life”, that includes remembering everything you ever did, just as you do now.
All of us will be exactly as we were before. except with a new flesh body.
Eternal life is given after you show that you repent, and listen to the teacher, Jesus Christ, in the millennium, Acts 3:23.
David ask, “in the GRAVE”, who can praise you? no one.Georg
Georg,Many excellent points and good Scriptures. Your views are quite logical.
First of all, I can't comment on the economical status of Mary, Martha and Lazarus. It doesn't say that he worked for the “rich man” or not, so I can't say if it was this “Lazarus” that Jesus was talking about. The only thing I feels sure of is that it was not a parable.
However to me, it seems likely that since Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead that it was his friend who went back and was a witness against the “rich man” and his family. Or a fun coincidence?
In the OT times they went to Sheol or Paradise in waiting to go to Heaven for the judgment. Now, according to Paul it seems that once we die, we go to Heaven immediately; because Jesus fulfilled the prophecy of being the firstborn of the dead.
The Professor
Professor
You haven't commented on these scriptures yet, would you like to do it now?
Rom. 6:23 “ For the wages of sin is death…”
Death is the opposite of life; you stop breathing, and you stop living.
Ps. 104:29 “Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled, thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust.”
Eccl. 3:19 “For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man has no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.”
v. 20 “All go unto one place, all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.”
Eccl. 9:5 “For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.”
Ps. 6:5 “For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?”
Ps. 88:10 “Wilt thou show wonders to the dead? Shall the dead arise and praise thee?”
v. 11 “Shall thy lovingkindness be declared in the grave? Or thy faithfulness in destruction?”
v. 12 “Shall thy wonders be known in the dark? And thy righteousness in the land of forgetfulness?”
Ps. 115:17 “The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.”
Georg
Ps. nowhere in the Bible does it say, any one goes to heaven.
Quote (Baker @ Aug. 23 2010,04:38) Professor You haven't commented on these scriptures yet, would you like to do it now?
Rom. 6:23 “ For the wages of sin is death…”
Death is the opposite of life; you stop breathing, and you stop living.
Ps. 104:29 “Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled, thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust.”
Eccl. 3:19 “For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man has no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.”
v. 20 “All go unto one place, all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.”
Eccl. 9:5 “For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.”
Ps. 6:5 “For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?”
Ps. 88:10 “Wilt thou show wonders to the dead? Shall the dead arise and praise thee?”
v. 11 “Shall thy lovingkindness be declared in the grave? Or thy faithfulness in destruction?”
v. 12 “Shall thy wonders be known in the dark? And thy righteousness in the land of forgetfulness?”
Ps. 115:17 “The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.”
Georg
Ps. nowhere in the Bible does it say, any one goes to heaven.
Hello Gerog,I'd love to answer some of your concerns.
All of the OT verses would've been BEFORE Jesus died and became the firstborn of the dead so they would be understood in a different “light”.
OT people died and their “soul/spirit” went to sheol or paradise immediately and the bodies decayed.
Before I can answer regarding “heaven” please answer the following, ok?:
I'd have to ask you, “Where is Jesus now?”
The Professor
Professor
Where do you read that any scripture of the OT, has no baring on the NT?
“””OT people died and their “soul/spirit” went to sheol or paradise immediately and the bodies decayed.”””
Again, where do you read that? Here is what Peter said.
Act 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
Act 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens:…
Act 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
This time of refreshing will be the millennium, Christ will restore this world back to paradise.
Act 3:20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
Act 3:21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
That is in the OT.
Jesus is in heaven now, sitting at the right hand of the Father (highest position of honour).
Now make good on you promise, (I'd love to answer some of your concerns.)
Georg
Quote (Baker @ Aug. 26 2010,15:43) Professor Where do you read that any scripture of the OT, has no baring on the NT?
“””OT people died and their “soul/spirit” went to sheol or paradise immediately and the bodies decayed.”””
Again, where do you read that? Here is what Peter said.
Act 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
Act 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens:…
Act 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
This time of refreshing will be the millennium, Christ will restore this world back to paradise.
Act 3:20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
Act 3:21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
That is in the OT.
Jesus is in heaven now, sitting at the right hand of the Father (highest position of honour).
Now make good on you promise, (I'd love to answer some of your concerns.)
Georg
Hello Georg,I don't know why you don't think that the bodies return to dust nor the places they go; however, because I like you and you asked I will show some Scriptures.
I will try to answer some of your questions but, please do quote the Scriptures as there is a BIG discrepancy in what it says and what YOU said:
Act 2:34 “For it was not David who ascended into heaven, but he himself says: 'THE LORD SAID TO MY LORD, “SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND,
YOU: Act 2:34 For David is not ascended into the
heavens:…This is for another post but, doesn't refer to what you refer….what the heck..
Act 2:31 he looked ahead and spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that HE WAS NEITHER ABANDONED TO HADES, NOR DID His flesh SUFFER DECAY.
2:29 says that David's “grave/tomb” is with us today.
Jesus' grave is with us today, too.As for bodies decaying and Sheol:
Gen 3:19 By the sweat of your face You will eat bread, Till you return to the ground, Because from it you were taken; For you are dust, And to dust you shall return.”
Job 17:16 “Will it go down with me to Sheol? Shall we together go down into the dust?”
Job 34:15 All flesh would perish together, And man would return to dust.
Psa 104:29 You hide Your face, they are dismayed; You take away their spirit, they expire And return to their dust.
Ecc 3:20 All go to the same place. All came from the dust and all return to the dust.
1Sa 2:6 “The LORD kills and makes alive; He brings down to Sheol and raises up.
Job 33:18 He keeps back his soul from the pit, And his life from passing over into Sheol.
Psa 9:17 The wicked will return to Sheol, Even all the nations who forget God.
Psa 30:3 O LORD, You have brought up my soul from Sheol; You have kept me alive, that I would not go down to the pit.
Psa 49:15 But God will redeem my soul from the power of Sheol, For He will receive me. Selah.
Psa 86:13 For Your lovingkindness toward me is great, And You have delivered my soul from the depths of Sheol.
Pro 27:20 Sheol and Abaddon are never satisfied, Nor are the eyes of man ever satisfied.
Luk 23:43 And He said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.”
2Cr 12:4 was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which a man is not permitted to speak.
Rev 2:7 'He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will grant to eat of the tree of life which is in the Paradise of God.'
1Sa 2:6 The LORD killeth, and maketh alive: he bringeth down to the grave, and bringeth up.
Gen 35:18 And it came to pass, as her soul was in departing, (for she died) that she called his name Benoni: but his father called him Benjamin.
Job 7:11 Therefore I will not refrain my mouth; I will speak in the anguish of my spirit; I will complain in the bitterness of my soul.
Job 10:1 My soul is weary of my life; I will leave my complaint upon myself; I will speak in the bitterness of my soul.
Wikipedia: In Judaism She'ol[3] is the earliest conception of the afterlife in the Jewish Scriptures. It is a place of darkness to which all dead go (righteous and wicked go alike).
Luk 16:23 And in “hell” he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in “Abraham's bosom”.
Luk 16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that [would come] from thence.
The Professor
Quote (Baker @ Aug. 26 2010,15:43) Professor Where do you read that any scripture of the OT, has no baring on the NT?
“””OT people died and their “soul/spirit” went to sheol or paradise immediately and the bodies decayed.”””
Again, where do you read that? Here is what Peter said.
Act 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
Act 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens:…
Act 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
This time of refreshing will be the millennium, Christ will restore this world back to paradise.
Act 3:20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
Act 3:21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
That is in the OT.
Jesus is in heaven now, sitting at the right hand of the Father (highest position of honour).
Now make good on you promise, (I'd love to answer some of your concerns.)
Georg
Georg,This isn't like you. I don't think that I said that the OT doesn't have a bearing on the NT, it is just things have changed and don't apply in the same ways.
Lady caught in adultery: Law required stoning.
Animal sacrifice: See Leviticus, et al.: No longer performed.
OT: Heaven closed to the dead: Sheol; Abraham's bosom accepted dead.
NT: Jesus firstborn of the dead: Heaven open. Jesus said the thief would be with him in Paradise, this day.Paul says absent from the body present with the Lord.
Where is the Lord? Heaven you said. Thus, once we die we are present with Jesus in Heaven.
Where are the “bad” people waiting? In Hell/Hades in the NT….Luke 16:23
Being a blonde it is hard for me to remember the points I wanted to make days ago.
I don't think I had concerns, just needed to know where Jesus is because that is where Paul is, no?
Where do you think your spirit/soul will be when you die?
2Cr 5:15 and He died for all, so that they who live might no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose again on their behalf.
2Cr 5:16 Therefore from now on we recognize no one according to the flesh; even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him in this way no longer.
2Cr 5:17 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.
1Cr 6:19 Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own?
1Cr 12:13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.
1Cr 12:14 For the body is not one member, but many.
1Cr 12:15 If the foot says, “Because I am not a hand, I am not a part of the body,” it is not for this reason any the less a part of the body.
1Cr 12:27 Now you are Christ's body, and individually members of it.
1Cr 15:35 But someone (Georg) will say, “How are the dead raised? And with what kind of body do they come?”
1Cr 15:44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.
2Cr 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.
Phl 3:21 who will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory, by the exertion of the power that He has even to subject all things to Himself.
1Th 5:23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Jam 2:26 For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.
The Professor
David Georg will be back on here tomorrow, He is sleeping now and will go to work at 4:30 A.M. helping out for 4 hrs. and then when He comes Home will take a nap, will pick up our Granddaughter bring Her to work, and then maybe He will return here….Peace Irene
Quote (Baker @ Aug. 26 2010,18:47) David Georg will be back on here tomorrow, He is sleeping now and will go to work at 4:30 A.M. helping out for 4 hrs. and then when He comes Home will take a nap, will pick up our Granddaughter bring Her to work, and then maybe He will return here….Peace Irene
Thanks Irene,If I ever miss responding to a question I am not avoiding it. Please PM me and let me know that there is an unanswered question I need to respond to and give it to me there, ok?
And like Georg, I do sleep.
David
Professor
When Jesus died on the cross, the OT Law (Law of Moses) was done away with.
“””OT: Heaven closed to the dead: Sheol; Abraham's bosom accepted dead.
NT: Jesus firstborn of the dead: Heaven open. Jesus said the thief would be with him in Paradise, this day.”””Jesus promised the thief he would be in paradise, but how could he have been there ahead of Jesus, did not Jesus spend three days in the grave?
What in your mind is paradise?“””Act 2:34 “For it was not David who ascended into heaven, but he himself says: 'THE LORD SAID TO MY LORD, “SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND,
YOU: Act 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens:…”””I quoted from the KJV, you obviously quoted from a different one, but, where is there a difference in what it says?
“””2:29 says that David's “grave/tomb” is with us today. Jesus' grave is with us today, too.”””
If any one would know where Davids grave/tomb was, they would find his bones in it, Jesus grave is empty; that is what is being said here. Jesus was resurrected, David was not.
The scriptures I gave you were to show you that when you die you don't go anywhere, you sleep in your grave unaware of anything.What did I say, that made you think, I don't believe the dead bodies want decay in their graves?
“””Luk 16:23 And in “hell” he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in “Abraham's bosom”.”””
Are you a believer in a literal “hell”?
“””Where is the Lord? Heaven you said. Thus, once we die we are present with Jesus in Heaven.”””
Show me, where in the Bible does it say anyone is going to heaven?
“”” I don't think I had concerns, just needed to know where Jesus is because that is where Paul is, no?”””
NO, read Hebrews chapter 11.
“””Where are the “bad” people waiting? In Hell/Hades in the NT….Luke 16:23″””
Bad people are in the same place as are good people, in their graves, waiting for the resurrection.
“””Where do you think your spirit/soul will be when you die?”””
My soul/body will be in the grave, my spirit/mind will be restored to me at my resurrection.
“””1Cr 15:35 But someone (Georg) will say, “How are the dead raised? And with what kind of body do they come?””””
You ask this question, but didn't realise you answered it with the next verse.
“”” 1Cr 15:44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.”””
The problem with this verse is, it has people thinking that every body will become a spirit being; that is not true; Paul is speaking to the church, the true believers, the saints; those that will be in the “first” resurrection.
Georg
Wow Georg,,,,,long post. Now I know what others meant about me posting long stuff…. haha
I agree that the OT law passed away with Jesus and we entered an ERA of Grace versus the ERA of the Law.
Luk 23:46 And Jesus, crying out with a loud voice, said, “Father, INTO YOUR HANDS I COMMIT MY SPIRIT.” Having said this, He breathed His last. (Here's ONE person that is going to Heaven; absent from the body, present with YHWH)
The tomb's where Jesus and David were placed are still in Israel….it doesn't say their “BODIES” are there.
Yes, I do believe in a literal “hell” and it will be thrown into the lake of fire….along with “death”.
I did re-read Heb 11….give me a clue to what you are referring to, ok? Then I can respond.
Here is what hell is like: Luk 16:24 “And he cried out and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.'
I believe that my spirit will be present with the Lord when I die.
Sorry Georg,
I meant to say their “SPIRITS” aren't in the grave, you are right and caught me in my error. Of course David's decayed body would be in his tomb….David isn't.
Answering about “paradise” is a rather long and tedious task because so little is written about it in the Bible. There is the paradise in Eden, the paradise Jesus mentioned, and the paradise of Heaven.
I believe that God is preparing another paradise in Heaven that will be brought to Earth after all Earth is burnt up with intense heat. But, please let's not debate this, ok? You asked so I gave you my opinion.
The emphasis was that Jesus is the one ascending into Heaven and the Scripture is talking about him, not David…in Acts 2:34 and Psalm 110.
Act 2:33 “Therefore having been exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He has poured forth this which you both see and hear.
Act 2:34 “For it was not David who ascended into [fn] heaven, but he himself says: 'THE LORD SAID TO MY LORD, “SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND,
Act 2:35 UNTIL I MAKE YOUR ENEMIES A FOOTSTOOL FOR YOUR FEET.”'
It also later talks about Jesus becoming a Priest according to the Order of Melchizedek….which David didn't do.
Hope I covered everything…if not, ask, and I will.
Professor
“””Luk 23:46 And Jesus, crying out with a loud voice, said, “Father, INTO YOUR HANDS I COMMIT MY SPIRIT.” Having said this, He breathed His last. (Here's ONE person that is going to Heaven; absent from the body, present with YHWH)”””
What God does with our spirit/mind when we die, we don't know, but the fact that we are resurrected with all of our good and bad memories shows, they don't decay.
If you believe what you said, then how does that square with this?Jhn 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am “”not yet”” ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
When Jesus ascended to heaven, 40 days “after” his resurrection, the apostles saw him ascend.
Act 1:9 ¶ And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
“””Yes, I do believe in a literal “hell” and it will be thrown into the lake of fire….along with “death”.”””
Death is a “condition”, brought on by sin, you can only destroy death, by destroying the one who has the power of death.
Hbr 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
“””Yes, I do believe in a literal “hell” and it will be thrown into the lake of fire….along with “death”.”””
The lake of fire is the second death, all unrepentant sinners will end up in it. Why fire? fire destroys all, it does not preserve.
Mal 4:1 ¶ For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
Mal 4:3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.
“Hell” is your grave, that is were all dead bodies are put in. After the millennium, there will be no more death, therefore, there will be no more graves. That is why you read in
Rev 20:14 And death and hell (grave) were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
“””I did re-read Heb 11….give me a clue to what you are referring to, ok? Then I can respond.”””
Hbr 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
Hbr 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they (OT saints) without us (NT saints) should not be made perfect.
Paradise, the garden of Eden, was lost due to sin, during the millennium Jesus is going to restore Paradise.
Act 3:20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
Act 3:21 Whom the heaven must receive “”until”” the times of restitution (restoring) of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
“””The emphasis was that Jesus is the one ascending into Heaven and the Scripture is talking about him, not David…in Acts 2:34 and Psalm 110.”””
If you go back you will see, that is what I said in the scripture I gave you.
Georg
About Lazarus and the rich man, read my article below.
Lazarus and the rich man
Most ministers will use this parable, and it is a parable as I will show, to prove that when you die you either go to heaven, or you go to hell. One thing we should understand, it is not whether you are rich or poor that determents where you will end up.
Jesus was approached by a rich young man who ask him.Mat. 19:16 “And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?”
v. 17 “And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is: God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.”
v. 21 “Jesus said unto him, if thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.”
v. 22 “But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.”
v. 23 “Then said Jesus unto his disciples, verily I say unto you, that a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.”
v. 24 “And again I say unto you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.”
Of course, the eye of a needle is meant symbolically; but what is his message about riches?
Luke 16:19 “There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day.”
v. 20 “And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores.”
This, ministers will say, is prove the story is real because Jesus named the beggar by name. Why then did Jesus say, a “certain” beggar? He also said, a “certain” rich man, did he not wish to identify the rich man?
v. 21 “And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table: moreover the dogs came and liked his sores.”
What this parable has shown us so far is, the rich man had absolutely no concern or compassion, no love whatsoever toward the beggar. He was so indulged in luxury and pleasure; he didn’t even see the beggar. The beggar was eating what fell of his table, in other words, his garbage.
Jesus is by no means picking on rich people, being rich is not a sin, however, if your wealth blinds you to the needs of others, it can become sin. Listen what James has to say.Ja. 2:15 “If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily foot.”
v. 16 “And one of you say unto them, depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what does it profit?
And then it happened, both of them died.
Luke 16:22 “And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom: the rich man also died and was buried.”
v. 23 “And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.”
It is in these two verses where the wrong assumptions are being made. First, when you die you don’t go anywhere except in your grave. The Bible says.Rom. 3:23 “For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God.”
We are all sinners, including Lazarus, and we know the penalty for sin is death (Rom. 6:23). Was not the reason Jesus came into the world to die for our sins?John 3:17 “For God sent not his son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.”
Is it not through his dying on the cross, the shedding of his blood, that we are saved? His blood will only cleanse us from all unrighteousness if we except his death in our stead; make him our Lord and savior. So, what was it that saved Lazarus?
This parable, as are all parables, is to teach us a lesson. Go back to the young rich man, did he not go away sad when he was told to sell his possessions? Is Jesus telling us to sell what we have? Of course not. What this young man was showing was, that his possessions meant more to him than following Jesus.
Wealthy people, more than poor people, can become so consumed with pleasure and self interest, can become so selfish, and greedy, that nothing and nobody else matters. That is what this “rich man” is to demonstrate to us.
When Jesus shows the beggar in the bosom of Abraham, that is meant symbolically to be paradise, and the rich man being tormented by the flames, symbolizes the second death; the lake of fire.
What is not mentioned in this parable is the resurrection. It is during the millennium when all that are in their grave will come forth.John 5:28 “Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice.”
v. 29 “And shall cone forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.”
It is not the good or bad that you did in this life that determents whether you live, or die again; but how you lived can be a hindrance; whether you will repent or not. At your resurrection, God will give you a new body, but your mind is the same as it was at your death. Ezekiel is explaining this to the Israelites.
Eze. 16:49 “Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sisters Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idelness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy.”
Meaning, they did not care for the poor and needy either. Ezekiel is referring to Sodom and the surrounding cities as sisters of Israel because of their own iniquities, as he is pointing out in the next verse.
v. 52 “Thou also, which hast judged thy sisters, bear thine own shame for thy sins that thou hast committed more abominable than they: they are more righteous than thou: yea, be thou confounded also, and bear thy shame, in that thou hast justified thy sisters.”
In fact, he is accusing them to be worse then they. This next verse is talking about the resurrection of Sodom, Samaria, and Israel.
v. 55 “When thy sisters, Sodom and her daughters, shall return to their former estate, and Samaria and her daughters shall return to their former estate, then thou and thy daughters shall return to your former estate.”
Return to their former estate means among other things, “to bring back to a former period or condition in life”. This is what I said earlier, you will have a new body, but not a new mind. You will remember all the good and the bad that you had done; you will remember, and meet again, people you new before. You may have before said, I don’t care what any one says, I do my thing; that will have to change. Every body will have to listen to Jesus, teaching God’s way, or this will happen.
Acts 3:23 “And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.”
This is what happened to the rich man. He could not adjust to the new way of life. He could not learn to care, he could not learn to love, he could not humble himself, he did not repent.
Luke 16:23 “And in hell he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.”
This is not just hell, a grave, the rich man found himself in; Jesus is referring to hellfire, the lake of fire, second death.
The beggar on the other hand had been humbled all his life; he repented, he had no problem asking God for forgiveness, and listening to Jesus Christ; his reward was eternal life.
As the rich man was cast into the lake of fire, he realized what he had done, or rather, what he had failed to do, it brought him to his senses, but to late. The rich man’s cries
were not answered.v. 24 “And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.”
The water the rich man requested was not for thirst, how would a drop have helped him anyway in his situation? Remember what Jesus told the woman by the well?
John 4:10 “Jesus answered and said unto her, if thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, give me to drink; thou wouldest have ask of him, and he would have given thee living water.”
v. 14 “But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.”
The rich man’s understanding where he was, and what had gotten him there, came to late.
v. 25 “But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.”
v. 26 “And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.”
When final judgment has been past on a sinner, there is no appeal, and no reversal of that sentence.
v. 27 “Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father’s house.”
Even his request to send Lazarus to his house was denied, because.
v. 29 “Abraham saith unto him, they have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.”
He kept on pleading.
v. 30 “And he said, nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.”
But to no avail. Jesus tells us through this parable; that even if a dead would return, we would not change.
v. 31 “And he said unto him, if they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.”
What this is saying is, those that don’t believe the bible now, want believe even if someone came back from the dead. What this parable also is saying is, it matters how you live your life now. How you train your mind in this life, the attitude you develop, may hinder you in your next. No one will then have an excuse not to understand the truth. As Peter said; those that will not hear, it is not a matter of can not hear, or can not understand.
Zeph. 3:9 “For then will I turn to the people a pure language, that they may all call upon the name of the LORD, to serve him with one consent.”
Hab. 2:14 “For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.”
Don’t let the pleasures of this life hinder you from passing through the needles eye. It is not the money that is evil; it is the love of money.
1 Tim. 6:10 “For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.”
GeorgPLEASE, take your time reading it.
Georg,
I never could understand why Jesus said this: Jhn 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am “”not yet”” ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
Maybe you can explain it? Because later he said this to Thomas: Jhn 20:27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust [it] into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
The only thing I can think of is that Jesus was making the point that he was not #1The Father as some people claim and #2 He is not God.
Ok Georg,
I responded to you that when Jesus was alive and prior to him, things were different(Age of Law vs Age of Grace). You even placed that in another post and I agreed. So, I won't respond to all of the quotes, again. However, Paul makes it clear that when absent from the body he would be present with the Lord….so do you have a problem with that?
You did say something that I feel should be addressed on the “fringe” of the topic:
YOU: This is not just hell, a grave, the rich man found himself in; Jesus is referring to hellfire, the lake of fire, second death.
Rev 20:14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
The book of Revelation was written over 50 years from this event, so this rich man was in the lake of fire before any one else, AND before DEATH and HADES were thrown into it?
Salvation, repentance, piety and all other concerns are for other threads and are excellent ideas, Georg but not on topic so I won't respond to them here, ok?
I tried to find topical statements so that I could answer and I will check back to see if I missed anything, ok?
Professor
Paul is the one who explains the resurrection in 1 Cor. 15, see what he said.
1Cr 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
All men will die, but all will be made alive again; two questions;
One, why will all be made alive again?
Two, was the rich man made alive again?1Cr 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
Christ is the first of the firstfruits, the saints. They will be resurrected before all others; it's called, the first resurrection.
Then come all the other dead, but, as Paul said, every one in his order, meaning, not all the dead will be resurrected at once.
This is important that you read this scripture.Act 24:14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:
Paul believed everything written in the scriptures, and here is what he said about the dead.
Act 24:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.
Both, the just and the unjust; that means, that even the rich man had hope of a resurrection.
There are a number of things that have not occurred yet.
Jesus has not yet established his kingdom here on earth yet.
Satan has not yet been put in prison.
The dead have not yet been resurrected, just to mention a few.
In my article I have explained why I believe that “Lazarus and the rich man” is a parable, so I want go into it again.
If Paul would mean what he said about, absent from the body, present with the Lord, would that not be a contradiction of what he said in 1 Cor. 15?Jn. 20:17, Mary was weeping outside the grave, because the body of Jesus was gone; when Jesus spoke to her, she thought it was the gardener. When he called her by her name, she suddenly recognized his voice. Overwhelmed with joy, she must have put her arms around his legs, and not wanted to let go. I don't believe that Jesus said to her, “don't touch me”, because, in those 40 days, prior to his ascension, he must have been “touched” by many more, besides Thomas. I believe that he told Mary, let me go, and tell the others, I have not yet ascended to heaven, but I will shortly.
Jesus never claimed that he was God, and he is not.Georg
Georg,
I may not see things as you do. I believe that our spirits never die, only our bodies. But maybe this might answer your question:Hbr 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
Jhn 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
I agree that Jesus is not our God. God said that He created everything thru His son, so that makes Jesus our Creator. God said that He sent His son to be our Salvation, so that makes Jesus our Savior. And Jesus said the he was the son of God, and not God.
As for the rich man: You see him in torment, in what body? As far as being “resurrected” Jesus is the one and only “body” that I know of that has been resurrected.
If our bodies die and decay what is going to be in front of the judgment seat? Our spirits, and probably in an incorruptible body.
Professor
In order to understand scriptures, you have to know the plan of God for man kind.
Look at this scripture, and tell me, how can that be true?Eze 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
Think of all the people that died, never even have heard the name Jesus, how can they be saved?
Hbr 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
What is the difference between this scripture and the next?
1Pe 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house (saints) of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
Were the judged, or were they taught? “judgment” is not what most people think it means; it means teaching, education.
How can Jesus judge any one that has no knowledge of him, or understanding of the word of God?
If the dead were to be resurrected, and then judged, it would be a sentencing, and then you would have to ask; what is the point of a resurrection?Jhn 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
After the resurrection, every one will be given a period during which he will be taught the truth, if at the end of that period you have done good, you will receive eternal life, if you have not, you will receive death.
Act 3:23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet (Jesus), shall be destroyed (second death) from among the people.
The rich man was in his flesh body.
Jesus was the only one resurrected, but nowhere does it say, in his flesh body.
Is not the penalty for sin death? Rom. 8:23.
Did not Jesus take on all of “OUR” sins? did he not become sin for us?
Adam had to die because he sinned, it was his sin that kept him in the grave; Jesus removed his sin and placed it on him self, by doing that he freed Adam from his sin, and he will be resurrected. Jesus flesh body took on all of man-kind sins, the penalty for sin is still the same, death; therefore his flesh body had to remain dead. Having been a “spirit” being before he became flesh, God gave him back his true nature, spirit nature.
You are right, our spirit/mind does not die at the first death, it will die, along with the body, at the second death.Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul (spirit/mind): but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. (hell-fire, meaning the lake of fire; “hell”, meaning your grave; “fire”, meaning, total destruction)
Jesus was our ransom, his flesh body that is, had that body been resurrected, it would have made the ransom void, and our sins would not be forgiven.
How will we be resurrected? here is what Job said.Job 14:14 If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.
Job 14:15 Thou shalt call, and I will answer thee: thou wilt have a desire to the work of thine hands.
Job 33:25 His flesh shall be fresher than a child's: he shall return to the days of his youth:
Georg
Georg,
Rom 1:15 So, for my part, I am eager to preach the gospel
Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
Rom 1:19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
Rom 1:20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.
Rom 1:21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Rom 1:22 Professing to be wise, they became fools,
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