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I really like this parable, and would like to have a discussion over it.
Many churches misinterpret the meaning. They use this parable to say that we go to an in-between place as soon as we die. I don't agree, for I know what the scriptures say concerning death. We stay in the grave until Christ comes and resurrects us. Yes, when we die, we are really dead, in the grave, and not somewhere else waiting for our new body…and definitely not in paradise..yet. I don't consider death to be paradise.
Remember it is a parable, just a story with a deep meaning behind it giving valuable insight into the future.
Luke 16:19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple an fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day.
Luke 16:20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores.
Luke 16:21 And desiring to be fed with crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came licked his sores.
Luke 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried.
Luke 16:23 And in hell he lifted up his eyes, being in torments, and sees Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Luke 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue, for I am tormented in this flame.
Luke 16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime recieved thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
Luke 16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
Luke 16:27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house.
Luke 16:28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
Luke 16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
Luke 16:30 And he said, Nay, father abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
Luke 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
This parable is referring to the Jews.
When Christ comes he will bring back the reserved Israelites and put them in the kingdom, on earth.But not all Israelites will be brought back into the kingdom.
There will be survivors who will live outside the kingdom, amongst the nations.God will provoke these ones to jealousy
Ezekiel 8:3 And he put forth the form of an hand, and took me by a lock of mine head; and the spirit lifted me up between the earth and the heaven, and brought me in the visions of God to Jerusalem, to the door of the inner gate that looketh toward the north; where was the seat of the image of jealousy, which provoketh to jealousy.
Romans 10:19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people,(gentiles) and by a foolish nation I will anger you (Israel)
also see, Duet 32:21, Isaiah 55:5, Jeremiah 8:9, Romans 9:25, Hosea 1:10
In the kingdom will be Christ, his saints, and the Israelites brought back from the dead and revived in the flesh. This will go on for a thousand years.
The Israelites who are left out will suffer jealousy and torment that they did not get accepted. They will see the gentiles there in spirit, and their brethren there in the flesh.
You can not be jealous when you are dead. You have to be alive to see what you are missing out on. They will witness their brethren being fed, comforted, and living in paradise. They will want to come in, and dwell there, but cannot. This is when there will be weeping and gnashing of the teeth. This is the frustration & regret they will feel within themselves for not listening to the moses and the prophets concerning the coming of their messiah. And even though Jesus was raised from the dead, they still did not believe it was him, and heed his teachings and warnings.Luke 13:28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.
So you see, this is not about all christians going somewhere in-between when they die, it is referring to the Israelites who missed out on being a part of the kingdom.
Quote (journey42 @ Jan. 02 2012,14:11) I really like this parable, and would like to have a discussion over it. Many churches misinterpret the meaning. They use this parable to say that we go to an in-between place as soon as we die. I don't agree, for I know what the scriptures say concerning death. We stay in the grave until Christ comes and resurrects us. Yes, when we die, we are really dead, in the grave, and not somewhere else waiting for our new body…and definitely not in paradise..yet. I don't consider death to be paradise.
Remember it is a parable, just a story with a deep meaning behind it giving valuable insight into the future.
Luke 16:19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple an fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day.
Luke 16:20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores.
Luke 16:21 And desiring to be fed with crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came licked his sores.
Luke 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried.
Luke 16:23 And in hell he lifted up his eyes, being in torments, and sees Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Luke 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue, for I am tormented in this flame.
Luke 16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime recieved thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
Luke 16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
Luke 16:27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house.
Luke 16:28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
Luke 16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
Luke 16:30 And he said, Nay, father abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
Luke 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
This parable is referring to the Jews.
When Christ comes he will bring back the reserved Israelites and put them in the kingdom, on earth.But not all Israelites will be brought back into the kingdom.
There will be survivors who will live outside the kingdom, amongst the nations.God will provoke these ones to jealousy
Ezekiel 8:3 And he put forth the form of an hand, and took me by a lock of mine head; and the spirit lifted me up between the earth and the heaven, and brought me in the visions of God to Jerusalem, to the door of the inner gate that looketh toward the north; where was the seat of the image of jealousy, which provoketh to jealousy.
Romans 10:19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people,(gentiles) and by a foolish nation I will anger you (Israel)
also see, Duet 32:21, Isaiah 55:5, Jeremiah 8:9, Romans 9:25, Hosea 1:10
In the kingdom will be Christ, his saints, and the Israelites brought back from the dead and revived in the flesh. This will go on for a thousand years.
The Israelites who are left out will suffer jealousy and torment that they did not get accepted. They will see the gentiles there in spirit, and their brethren there in the flesh.
You can not be jealous when you are dead. You have to be alive to see what you are missing out on. They will witness their brethren being fed, comforted, and living in paradise. They will want to come in, and dwell there, but cannot. This is when there will be weeping and gnashing of the teeth. This is the frustration & regret they will feel within themselves for not listening to the moses and the prophets concerning the coming of their messiah. And even though Jesus was raised from the dead, they still did not believe it was him, and heed his teachings and warnings.Luke 13:28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.
So you see, this is not about all christians going somewhere in-between when they die, it is referring to the Israelites who missed out on being a part of the kingdom.
Hi journey.yes that was knowledge,that only God could give.
bless you.
wakeup.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 17 2014,19:55) Hi,
Knowledge?
NickUnderstanding the scriptures is knowledge.
Whenever we speak of knowledge we are referring to spiritual knowledge, not going to university and learning to be an engineer, but learning spiritual things, and looking into the parables, and seeing the real meanings.Would you like to share your knowledge with us?
Have you got any parables you would like to explain?
Do you have any deep insight that can be of benefit to us?Hi J42,
REAL MEANINGS?
Spiritual knowledge?Only you can know real meanings?
Did God give you this special knowledge?Are you sure?
To whomever is concerned.
Quote Bosom of Abraham” refers to the place of comfort in sheol (Greek: hades) where the Jews said the righteous dead awaited Judgment Day. Note: Bosom of Abraham
Quote (kerwin @ April 18 2014,01:54) To whomever is concerned. Quote Bosom of Abraham” refers to the place of comfort in sheol (Greek: hades) where the Jews said the righteous dead awaited Judgment Day. Note: Bosom of Abraham
correct KerwinT,
The only people who debate it being such are those who lack knowledge, either intentionally or unintentionally or those who do not want to believe it.
This story is just simply a parable.
another post I'd like to rectify and simplify.It uses Abraham and Lazarus as an example only.
Those who do not get accepted into the kingdom,
will miss out. It's got nothing to do with being tormented in hell, as hell will be thrown into the lake of fire and they will be no more.It's just simply showing that once judgement is given, you cannot change the circumstances. You will miss out on the good things to come, because you received them in this life, having no hardships, and did not consider God, or anyone else who was in need.
So no matter how much you cry and plead, you can't change a thing once judgement is given.
And no point in asking to warn your family now, because the prophets were already sent to do that job.
The warning was given already, so they had their chance.Journey,
I know what you say but your word on this matter accuses Jesus of using heresy to teach a lesson. Why you believe he would even do such a thing is beyond me.
Quote (journey42 @ April 18 2014,14:10) This story is just simply a parable.
another post I'd like to rectify and simplify.It uses Abraham and Lazarus as an example only.
Those who do not get accepted into the kingdom,
will miss out. It's got nothing to do with being tormented in hell, as hell will be thrown into the lake of fire and they will be no more.It's just simply showing that once judgement is given, you cannot change the circumstances. You will miss out on the good things to come, because you received them in this life, having no hardships, and did not consider God, or anyone else who was in need.
So no matter how much you cry and plead, you can't change a thing once judgement is given.
And no point in asking to warn your family now, because the prophets were already sent to do that job.
The warning was given already, so they had their chance.
hi journey,
So in your opinion parables are not truth?Quote (kerwin @ April 18 2014,14:30) Journey, I know what you say but your word on this matter accuses Jesus of using heresy to teach a lesson. Why you believe he would even do such a thing is beyond me.
What do you mean Kerwin?
I don't understand?Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 18 2014,14:47) hi journey,
So in your opinion parables are not truth?
Hi NickIs that all you have to say?
Do you really think Lazarus is in Abrahams bosom right now?
Don't you know there is a day set aside for the resurrection at the coming? The dead are still dead in case you didn't know.A parable is a made up story, an example of the real thing.
Like what you use to teach children, examples but with a meaning behind it.Keep bringing up my old posts, it's good to go over again.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 18 2014,17:55) Hi WU,
Yes.And you should not deny scripture for the sake of your dogmas
Nick.It seem a contradiction from your point of view,but not to scriptures.
And you dont understand the scriptures.wakeup.
Quote (journey42 @ April 18 2014,11:25) Quote (kerwin @ April 18 2014,14:30) Journey, I know what you say but your word on this matter accuses Jesus of using heresy to teach a lesson. Why you believe he would even do such a thing is beyond me.
What do you mean Kerwin?
I don't understand?
Journey.The term bosom of Abraham is know to apply to the pleasant side of the land of the dead. It is a teaching that has been around among the Jews and Christians since before Christ. It was forgotten over time by many.
Jesus is either basing his parable in a true place of he is placing it in a non existing place that is spoken of as existing by heretics and so strengthening that heresy. It is unclean to accuse Jesus of advancing heresy. Satan is tricky and seeks to blind us and our lack of knowledge of certain things makes it more opportune for him to do so.
Hi Kerwin
I think you are going off into another direction there.
Abraham is the father of the Israelites, and a father of the promise whom God made a covenant with.There is no pleasant side to the land of the dead.
Those dead are still in their graves. They don't know a thing.
If you know your scriptures, you would know this.
It sounds like you are speaking of a pergatory catholic teaching there?
The dead are just asleep. Not talking to one another.Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Ecclesiastes 9:6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.Psalms 115:17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.
Hi j42,
You had better enlarge your concepts
Scripture is truthDeath AND Hades are eventually cast in the lake of fire.
Journey,
Quote
There is no pleasant side to the land of the dead.
Those dead are still in their graves. They don't know a thing.To say that is to call Jesus a liar.
Jesus was either basing his story on heresy, which is a lie, or on the truth. If on the truth then there is both a pleasant and tormenting side of the land of the dead.
I realize you have chosen to put more weight on your understand of Ecclesiastes 9:5 than are Jesus' words.
Ecclesiastes 9:5 is hard to understand as it states the dead have no further reward and yet there is a further reward mentioned for them after their resurrection. It mentions that even their name is forgotten and yet I remember the names of Abraham, David, and Solomon even though they are dead. It is a passage worth looking into.
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