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Quote (942767 @ Nov. 11 2009,15:57) Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 11 2009,10:45) Quote (942767 @ Nov. 10 2009,10:01) Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 09 2009,17:41) Quote (942767 @ Nov. 09 2009,14:51) Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 08 2009,14:29) Quote (thethinker @ Nov. 08 2009,08:42) To ALL: God promised Abraham that he would show mercy to his descendants for “a thousand generations.”
Quote 8 He remembers His covenant forever,
The word which He commanded, for a thousand generations,
9 The covenant which He made with Abraham,
And His oath to Isaac,
10 And confirmed it to Jacob for a statute,
To Israel as an everlasting covenant,According to Exodus 20:6 God will show mercy to “thousands” (plural) of generations. King David took this to mean that God's covenant is ETERNAL.
In Isaiah's prophecy of the new earth the covenant keeps going. It says that the blessed of the Lord will bring forth children, not for trouble but for salvation:
Quote 17 “ For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth;
And the former shall not be remembered or come to mind.
18 But be glad and rejoice forever in what I create;
For behold, I create Jerusalem as a rejoicing,
And her people a joy.
19 I will rejoice in Jerusalem,
And joy in My people;
The voice of weeping shall no longer be heard in her,
Nor the voice of crying.
20 “ No more shall an infant from there live but a few days,
Nor an old man who has not fulfilled his days;
For the child shall die one hundred years old,
But the sinner being one hundred years old shall be accursed.
21 They shall build houses and inhabit them;
They shall plant vineyards and eat their fruit.
22 They shall not build and another inhabit;
They shall not plant and another eat;
For as the days of a tree, so shall be the days of My people,
And My elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
23 They shall not labor in vain,
Nor bring forth children for trouble;
For they shall be the descendants of the blessed of the LORD,
And their offspring with them.
It says that they “bring forth children” and have “descendants” and “offspring.” It is irrefutable that salvation will continue forever because God's people will bring “bring forth children” in the new earth which is forever. The “blessed of the Lord” in the new earth will have descendants who will also become the “blessed of the Lord.”God will not and cannot destroy humanity because He is under oath to show mercy to “thousands of generations” of Abraham's descendants. We are less than 200 generations from Abraham. So he has just begun to realize the number of his believing progeny which is yet to come.
But the futurists try to rob Abraham of his ongoing seed by saying that God could destroy humanity tomorrow. If we were to be literal with the expression “a thousand generations” then the promise would fall short of about 800 generations if God destroyed humanity tomorrow. It is not literal of course. King David said that “a thousand generations” means FOREVER and ETERNAL. This is solified by Exodus 20:6 which says that God will show mercy to thousands (plural) of generations.
Don't believe the futurists. God has no intentions of destroying humanity and neither can He because He is under the oath He made to Abraham. The futurists have been shoveling the “stuff” for two thousand years now saying that this earth and the human race will come to an end.
Thankfully people are starting to wake up and preterism has now become the fastest growing movement in christendom. God will save a people for Himself in all generations forever and ever. There is no limit to the number of Abraham's seed. God said that Abraham's believing progeny will be in number “as the sand on the seashore”. Praise Him!
Not only do the futurists try to rob Abraham of many descendants but they also make God out to be a covenant breaker.
TO WJ: This is the only post I have time to do this weekend. I'll be back for sure.
thinker
You believe that God broke his covenant with Ishmael so do you now recant that position?Ishmael also was part of the covenant with Abraham and that covenant was with God so Ishmael having to leave with his mother did not and could not break the covenant with God and Circumcision was that covenant.
Hi BD:Once again there is a conflict from what the bible states and what you are giving us from the Quran.
God speaking to Abraham states, “In Isaac shall thy seed be called”. Isaac is symbolic of the promised Messiah through whom we are called to reconciled to God by the gospel. This gospel is preached to every creature including the desendants of Ishmael.
There is no covenant with Ishmael mentioned in the bible, but God did promise to make him a great nation.
Quote Gen 17:18 And Abraham said unto God, O that Ishmael might live before thee! Gen 17:19 And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, [and] with his seed after him.
Gen 17:20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.
Gen 17:21 But my covenant will I establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year
Love in Christ,
Marty
A Promise is a Covenant
and Ismael was part of the same Covenant that Abraham was under.Abraham was not even under the same Covenant as Isaac so you are incorrect.
Also you simply keep misunderstanding Covenants
With Noah
Genesis 6:18 (King James Version)18 But with thee will I establish my covenant; and thou shalt come into the ark, thou, and thy sons, and thy wife, and thy sons' wives with thee.
Genesis 9:8-10 (King James Version)
8And God spake unto Noah, and to his sons with him, saying,
9And I, behold, I establish my covenant with you, and with your seed after you;
That would include everyone living.
With Abraham
Genesis 17
1And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.2And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly.
Genesis 17
7And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.
Genesis 17:10-12This included both Isaac and Ishmael and their descendents
With Moses
29.Exodus 24:7
And he took the book of the covenant, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that the LORD hath said will we do, and be obedient.
Exodus 24:6-8 (in Context) Exodus 24 (Whole Chapter)30.Exodus 24:8
And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which the LORD hath made with you concerning all these words.
Exodus 24:7-9 (in Context) Exodus 24 (Whole Chapter)Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.
Exodus 31:15-17Deuteronomy 5
1And Moses called all Israel, and said unto them, Hear, O Israel, the statutes and judgments which I speak in your ears this day, that ye may learn them, and keep, and do them.2The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb.
3The LORD made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day.
With Phinehas
Numbers 25:11-13 (King James Version)11Phinehas, the son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron the priest, hath turned my wrath away from the children of Israel, while he was zealous for my sake among them, that I consumed not the children of Israel in my jealousy.
12Wherefore say, Behold, I give unto him my covenant of peace:
13And he shall have it, and his seed after him, even the covenant of an everlasting priesthood; because he was zealous for his God, and made an atonement for the children of Israel.
with King Jehoiada
And the king stood in his place, and made a covenant before the LORD, to walk after the LORD, and to keep his commandments, and his testimonies, and his statutes, with all his heart, and with all his soul, to perform the words of the covenant which are written in this book.
2 Chronicles 34:30-32With Ezra
Now therefore let us make a covenant with our God to put away all the wives, and such as are born of them, according to the counsel of my lord, and of those that tremble at the commandment of our God; and let it be done according to the law.
Ezra 10:2-4TO EVERYONE
Psalm 25:10-15 (King James Version)
10All the paths of the LORD are mercy and truth unto such as keep his covenant and his testimonies.
11For thy name's sake, O LORD, pardon mine iniquity; for it is great.
12What man is he that feareth the LORD? him shall he teach in the way that he shall choose.
13His soul shall dwell at ease; and his seed shall inherit the earth.
14The secret of the LORD is with them that fear him; and he will shew them his covenant.
15Mine eyes are ever toward the LORD; for he shall pluck my feet out of the net.
Please study what a covenant is and understand that covenants have been and are always being provided by God, You have even said you have entered into a covenant with God regarding being a Bishop.
Hi BD:And so, what is the covenant that God made with Ishmael according to the bible?
Love in Christ,
Marty
Do you not recall what God promised Abraham what he would do for Ishmael?Also do you not recall Ishmael being under the covenant of circumcision as well which includes all those in that covenant being God's People.
7And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.
Ishmael and his descendents are not of the gentiles they are from the same semitic line or Abrahams descendents, are they not?
Hi BD:thethinker wants for us to get back on track regarding the issue of this thread, and so if we can discuss this issue regarding Ishmael in an appropriate thread that would be good.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Wasn't the thread about Abraham's covenant cannot be nullified? Yet he wishes to nullify the covenant of Abraham choosing some covenants over others according to whimbodhitharta said:
Quote Wasn't the thread about Abraham's covenant cannot be nullified? Yet he wishes to nullify the covenant of Abraham choosing some covenants over others according to whim
bd,
You say the covenant of salvation included Ishmael. Okay, how long is that covenant to go forth? King David said that God commanded it to go forth to “a thousand generations” (Psalm 105:8-10). We read in Exodus 20:6 that God will show mercy to “thousands” (plural) of generations.According to Matthew's geneaology Jesus was 42 generations from Abraham. We are about 50 generations from Jesus. So we are less than 100 generations from Abraham. God said that He would show mercy to “thousands” of generations. According to King David this means “forever.”
If the covenant cannot be broken, even if it included Ishmael, then how can God, if He would destroy the earth destroy it before tens of thousands of years have passed? If He did then Abraham would not see the generations of believing progeny that God promised Him.
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ Nov. 12 2009,04:22) bodhitharta said: Quote Wasn't the thread about Abraham's covenant cannot be nullified? Yet he wishes to nullify the covenant of Abraham choosing some covenants over others according to whim
bd,
You say the covenant of salvation included Ishmael. Okay, how long is that covenant to go forth? King David said that God commanded it to go forth to “a thousand generations” (Psalm 105:8-10). We read in Exodus 3:6 that God will show mercy to “thousands” (plural) of generations.According to Matthew's geneaology Jesus was 42 generations from Abraham. We are about 50 generations from Jesus. So we are less than 100 generations from Abraham. God said that He would show mercy to “thousands” of generations. According to King David this means “forever.”
If the covenant cannot be broken, even if it included Ishmael, then how can God, if He would destroy the earth destroy it before tens of thousands of years have passed? If He did then Abraham would not see the generations of believing progeny that God promised Him.
thinker
Psalm 105:8-10 (King James Version)8He hath remembered his covenant for ever, the word which he commanded to a thousand generations.
9Which covenant he made with Abraham, and his oath unto Isaac;
10And confirmed the same unto Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant:
You have already answered your own question saying “according to King David this means forever”
In other words as long as time exists
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 12 2009,06:50) Hi TT,
Ex 3.6 does not say that does it?
Nick,
That was supposed to be Exodus 20:6thinker
Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 12 2009,06:57) Quote (thethinker @ Nov. 12 2009,04:22) bodhitharta said: Quote Wasn't the thread about Abraham's covenant cannot be nullified? Yet he wishes to nullify the covenant of Abraham choosing some covenants over others according to whim
bd,
You say the covenant of salvation included Ishmael. Okay, how long is that covenant to go forth? King David said that God commanded it to go forth to “a thousand generations” (Psalm 105:8-10). We read in Exodus 3:6 that God will show mercy to “thousands” (plural) of generations.According to Matthew's geneaology Jesus was 42 generations from Abraham. We are about 50 generations from Jesus. So we are less than 100 generations from Abraham. God said that He would show mercy to “thousands” of generations. According to King David this means “forever.”
If the covenant cannot be broken, even if it included Ishmael, then how can God, if He would destroy the earth destroy it before tens of thousands of years have passed? If He did then Abraham would not see the generations of believing progeny that God promised Him.
thinker
Psalm 105:8-10 (King James Version)8He hath remembered his covenant for ever, the word which he commanded to a thousand generations.
9Which covenant he made with Abraham, and his oath unto Isaac;
10And confirmed the same unto Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant:
You have already answered your own question saying “according to King David this means forever”
In other words as long as time exists
So you agree then that the earth cannot be destroyed as the many “prophets” of doom say? At least it cannot be destroyed for “thousands of generations.” This adds up to tens of thousands of years.Abraham has just begun to see the number of believing progeny promised him. Right?
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ Nov. 15 2009,09:19) Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 12 2009,06:57) Quote (thethinker @ Nov. 12 2009,04:22) bodhitharta said: Quote Wasn't the thread about Abraham's covenant cannot be nullified? Yet he wishes to nullify the covenant of Abraham choosing some covenants over others according to whim
bd,
You say the covenant of salvation included Ishmael. Okay, how long is that covenant to go forth? King David said that God commanded it to go forth to “a thousand generations” (Psalm 105:8-10). We read in Exodus 3:6 that God will show mercy to “thousands” (plural) of generations.According to Matthew's geneaology Jesus was 42 generations from Abraham. We are about 50 generations from Jesus. So we are less than 100 generations from Abraham. God said that He would show mercy to “thousands” of generations. According to King David this means “forever.”
If the covenant cannot be broken, even if it included Ishmael, then how can God, if He would destroy the earth destroy it before tens of thousands of years have passed? If He did then Abraham would not see the generations of believing progeny that God promised Him.
thinker
Psalm 105:8-10 (King James Version)8He hath remembered his covenant for ever, the word which he commanded to a thousand generations.
9Which covenant he made with Abraham, and his oath unto Isaac;
10And confirmed the same unto Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant:
You have already answered your own question saying “according to King David this means forever”
In other words as long as time exists
So you agree then that the earth cannot be destroyed as the many “prophets” of doom say? At least it cannot be destroyed for “thousands of generations.” This adds up to tens of thousands of years.Abraham has just begun to see the number of believing progeny promised him. Right?
thinker
I don't disagree with you there.It doesn't matter to me even if Jesus had returned already because it would just prove that Islam is a true religion
Quote (JustAskin @ June 05 2010,05:20) KJ.
Surely the point of preaching the Gospel is to inform everyone of what is truth and what is not truth and the consequences of ignoring both or either UNTIL Jesus returns and judges the world for his God?After this, what need is there for preaching? All those who believe will still be believing, and those that did not believe will not exist.
Why preach the truth to truth believers? As Jesus said,'What need does a well person have for a doctor?'
JA,The Abrahamic covenant requires that the gospel be preached forever because it is an EVERLASTING covenant. Note my comments below from another thread I started “The Abrahamic Covenant Cannot be Nullified”
To ALL:
God promised Abraham that he would show mercy to his descendants for “a thousand generations.”
Quote 8 He remembers His covenant forever,
The word which He commanded, for a thousand generations,
9 The covenant which He made with Abraham,
And His oath to Isaac,
10 And confirmed it to Jacob for a statute,
To Israel as an everlasting covenant,According to Exodus 20:6 God will show mercy to “thousands” (plural) of generations. King David took this to mean that God's covenant is ETERNAL.
In Isaiah's prophecy of the new earth the covenant keeps going. It says that the blessed of the Lord will bring forth children, not for trouble but for salvation:
Quote 17 “ For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth;
And the former shall not be remembered or come to mind.
18 But be glad and rejoice forever in what I create;
For behold, I create Jerusalem as a rejoicing,
And her people a joy.
19 I will rejoice in Jerusalem,
And joy in My people;
The voice of weeping shall no longer be heard in her,
Nor the voice of crying.
20 “ No more shall an infant from there live but a few days,
Nor an old man who has not fulfilled his days;
For the child shall die one hundred years old,
But the sinner being one hundred years old shall be accursed.
21 They shall build houses and inhabit them;
They shall plant vineyards and eat their fruit.
22 They shall not build and another inhabit;
They shall not plant and another eat;
For as the days of a tree, so shall be the days of My people,
And My elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
23 They shall not labor in vain,
Nor bring forth children for trouble;
For they shall be the descendants of the blessed of the LORD,
And their offspring with them.
It says that they “bring forth children” and have “descendants” and “offspring.” It is irrefutable that salvation will continue forever because God's people will “bring forth children” in the new earth which is forever. The “blessed of the Lord” in the new earth will have descendants who will also become the “blessed of the Lord.”God will not and cannot destroy humanity because He is under oath to show mercy to “thousands of generations” of Abraham's descendants. We are less than 200 generations from Abraham. So he has just begun to realize the number of his believing progeny which is yet to come.
But the futurists try to rob Abraham of his ongoing seed by saying that God could destroy humanity tomorrow. If we were to be literal with the expression “a thousand generations” then the promise would fall short of about 800 generations if God destroyed humanity tomorrow. It is not literal of course. King David said that “a thousand generations” means FOREVER and ETERNAL. This is solified by Exodus 20:6 which says that God will show mercy to thousands (plural) of generations.
Don't believe the futurists. God has no intentions of destroying humanity and neither can He because He is under the oath He made to Abraham. The futurists have been shoveling the “stuff” for two thousand years now saying that this earth and the human race will come to an end.
Thankfully people are starting to wake up and preterism has now become the fastest growing movement in christendom. God will save a people for Himself in all generations forever and ever. There is no limit to the number of Abraham's seed. God said that Abraham's believing progeny will be in number “as the sand on the seashore”. Praise Him!
Not only do the futurists try to rob Abraham of many descendants but they also make God out to be a covenant breaker.
thinker (Kangaroo Jack)
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