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Just looking for input from you guys…and some links on some research reading that might be helpful on this topic would be nice.
Thanks
And GOD Bless!
Just looking at the first century fulfillment:
“When you catch sight of the disgusting thing that causes desolation . . . standing in a holy place, . . . then let those in Judea begin fleeing to the mountains.”—MATTHEW 24:15, 16.
Jesus outlined a composite sign that included wars, food shortages, earthquakes, pestilences, and persecution of Christians preaching about God’s Kingdom. (Matthew 24:4-14; Luke 21:10-19) Jesus also offered a clue that would help his disciples to know that the end was close—a ‘disgusting thing that causes desolation standing in a holy place.’ (Matthew 24:15)
The accounts by Mark and Luke provide supplemental details. Where Matthew uses “standing in a holy place,” Mark 13:14 says “standing where it ought not.” Luke 21:20 adds Jesus’ words: “When you see Jerusalem surrounded by encamped armies, then know that the desolating of her has drawn near.” This helps us to see that the first fulfillment involved the Roman assault on Jerusalem and its temple—a place holy to the Jews but no longer the place holy to Jehovah—which began in 66 C.E. Complete desolation occurred when the Romans destroyed both city and temple in 70 C.E. What was “the disgusting thing” back then? And how did it ‘stand in a holy place’?
Jesus urged readers to use discernment. Readers of what? Likely, of Daniel chapter 9. There we find a prophecy indicating when Messiah would appear and foretelling that he would be “cut off” after three and a half years. The prophecy says: “Upon the wing of disgusting things there will be the one causing desolation; and until an extermination, the very thing decided upon will go pouring out also upon the one lying desolate.”—Daniel 9:26, 27; see also Daniel 11:31; 12:11.
The Jews thought that this applied to the profanation of the temple by Antiochus IV about 200 years earlier. However, Jesus showed otherwise, urging discernment because “the disgusting thing” was yet to appear and stand in “a holy place.” It is apparent that Jesus was referring to the Roman army that would come in 66 C.E. with distinctive ensigns. Such standards, long in use, were virtual idols and were disgusting to the Jews.
(“The Roman standards were guarded with religious veneration in the temples at Rome; and the reverence of this people for their ensigns was in proportion to their superiority to other nations . . . [To soldiers it] was perhaps the most sacred thing the earth possessed. The Roman soldier swore by his ensign.”—The Encyclopædia Britannica, 11th Edition.)When, though, would they ‘stand in a holy place’? That happened when the Roman army, with its ensigns, attacked Jerusalem and its temple, which the Jews considered holy. The Romans even began to undermine the wall of the temple area. Truly, what had long been disgusting now stood in a holy place!—Isaiah 52:1; Matthew 4:5; 27:53; Acts 6:13.
Hi Samuel
You are right on target with that assumption.
Consider the fact that Jesus offered himself once for all, Heb. 10:10.
With this sacrifice he forgave us all our sins, Col. 2:13.
For the Catholic Church to teach that is not so, to say your daily sins can only be forgiven by a mass sacrifice during which they claim Christ literally dies again and again, is the greatest insult to Christ. God calls it an abomination, the strongest term used by God to show how much he hates it.
It was set up in the early third century, and was made later the vocal point of the mass.Georg
Hi Georg,
US being forgiven of course is those those the letter of colosians was written too-the body of ChristHi Samuel:
The abomination of desolation will occur just prior to what is commonly called the great tribulation. It is my understanding that the folloiwing scripture is referring to this event:
Quote 2Th 2:1 ¶ Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and [by] our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.Luke 21 states the following:
Quote Luk 21:20 ¶ And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
Luk 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
Luk 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
Luk 21:23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
Luk 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
Luk 21:25 ¶ And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
Luk 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
Luk 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.If my understanding is correct, God will intervene against those nations coming against Christians and Jews at some point in time (Ezekiel 37,38,& 39). After this intervention by God, there will be a 7 year peace treaty with Israels enemies, and the temple will be rebuilt during this period of peace. The Othodox Jews who don't believe that Jesus is the Messiah will begin offering animal sacrifices after the temple is rebuilt. Midway through this 7 year peace treaty the Anti-Christ will stop the Jews from offering animal sacrifices. This is when Jerusalem will be compassed with armies (Luke 21:20). From this time until the abomination of desolation, the Anti-Christ setting himself up in the temple of God showing himself to be God, there will be 1290 days. At this time the Great Tribulation will begin. 45 days into this tribulation period, the church will be raptured.
My understanding is based on the following scriptures:
Quote Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. Quote Dan 12:7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which [was] upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that [it shall be] for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these [things] shall be finished. Quote Dan 12:11 And from the time [that] the daily [sacrifice] shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, [there shall be] a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
Dan 12:12 Blessed [is] he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty daysQuote Mat 24:15 ¶ When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Mat 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
Mat 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
Mat 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortenedQuote Mat 24:29 ¶ Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, fromGod Bless
Hello 942767, if I may come in here.
It is so common to apply Dan. 9:27 to Antichrist, were in fact it speaks of Jesus Christ.
Consider what the 70 weeks are telling, Dan. 9:24.
It would take 7 weeks, or 49 years, to rebuild Jerusalem and her walls.
After 62 more weeks, a total of 69 weeks, Jesus would be baptized and anointed as the Messiah.
Right after his baptism, or starting with the 70th week, he began his ministry.
He went all over Judea preaching (confirming) the new covenant. In the middle of the week, three
and a half years into it, he was cut off, Dan. 9:27.
His death on the cross, his sacrifice, caused the old testament sacrifice and oblation (offerings)
to cease. The Jews however did not stop sacrificing, because they did not believe in the Messiah.
The abomination that made Christs sacrifice desolate (destroyed it), was, and still is, the Catholic
Church mass sacrifice.
It is the greatest insult to our redeemer, to say, what you did was not enough.Georg
Quote (Irene @ Aug. 17 2008,01:03) Hello 942767, if I may come in here. It is so common to apply Dan. 9:27 to Antichrist, were in fact it speaks of Jesus Christ.
Consider what the 70 weeks are telling, Dan. 9:24.
It would take 7 weeks, or 49 years, to rebuild Jerusalem and her walls.
After 62 more weeks, a total of 69 weeks, Jesus would be baptized and anointed as the Messiah.
Right after his baptism, or starting with the 70th week, he began his ministry.
He went all over Judea preaching (confirming) the new covenant. In the middle of the week, three
and a half years into it, he was cut off, Dan. 9:27.
His death on the cross, his sacrifice, caused the old testament sacrifice and oblation (offerings)
to cease. The Jews however did not stop sacrificing, because they did not believe in the Messiah.
The abomination that made Christs sacrifice desolate (destroyed it), was, and still is, the Catholic
Church mass sacrifice.
It is the greatest insult to our redeemer, to say, what you did was not enough.Georg
Hi Brother Gerog:You may be correct on this but I don't quite agree.
One thing that I note the scripture states that Jesus will be cut off after 62 weeks not baptized after 62 weeks as you stated. “After 62 more weeks, a total of 69 weeks, Jesus would be baptized and anointed as the Messiah”
Quote Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof [shall be] with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined Anyway, we will soon see what develops because I believe that the time is at hand and even at the door.
God Bless
Quote (Irene @ Aug. 17 2008,07:03) 942767, hi Are you suggesting there are two sets of 62 weeks?
Georg
No Geroge, just one set of 7 weeks, and one set of 62 weeks, and then one week.But the scripture states that the Messiah will be cut off after 62 weeks. Please re-read Daniel 9:26 and see if that is not what it says.
Also, the abomination of desolation is something that is a future event not something that has already happened. Please see Matthew 24:14-31.
God Bless
Quote (Irene @ Aug. 17 2008,09:23) Hi 942767 Which came first the 7 weeks or the 62 weeks?
Georg
Hi Gerog:The 7 weeks came first, and then the 62 weeks, and so that is a total of 69 weeks of years, and then there is one week of years or a 7 year period, the 70th week.
Hi 942767
You are absolutely right of course, and Jesus was baptized and anointed at the end of 69 weeks.
His ministry started immediately after his baptism, week number 70.
That is what Dan. 9:27 is all about.Georg
Quote (Irene @ Aug. 17 2008,11:01) Hi 942767 You are absolutely right of course, and Jesus was baptized and anointed at the end of 69 weeks.
His ministry started immediately after his baptism, week number 70.
That is what Dan. 9:27 is all about.Georg
Ok Brother Georg:I am not going to argue with you. The truth will be made manifest one way or the other. You have given me your understanding and I have given you mine. We don't agree so let's pray and ask God to give us understanding so that we can teach His Word in truth.
I'm alway willing to be corrected if I am wrong. I don't want to teach anything that is not God's Word.
You may be right, and if so, I am asking God to reveal this to me.
God Bless
Hi Brother Georg:
Please give me your understanding of the following scriptures:
Quote Dan 11:29 ¶ At the time appointed he shall return, and come toward the south; but it shall not be as the former, or as the latter.
Dan 11:30 For the ships of Chittim shall come against him: therefore he shall be grieved, and return, and have indignation against the holy covenant: so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant.
Dan 11:31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily [sacrifice], and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.
Dan 11:32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do [exploits].
Dan 11:33 And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, [many] days.
Dan 11:34 Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries.
Dan 11:35 And [some] of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make [them] white, [even] to the time of the end: because [it is] yet for a time appointed.
Dan 11:36 ¶ And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.
Dan 11:37 Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.
Dan 11:38 But in his estate shall he honour the God of forces: and a god whom his fathers knew not shall he honour with gold, and silver, and with precious stones, and pleasant things.
Dan 11:39 Thus shall he do in the most strong holds with a strange god, whom he shall acknowledge [and] increase with glory: and he shall cause them to rule over many, and shall divide the land for gain.
Dan 11:40 ¶ And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over.
Dan 11:41 He shall enter also into the glorious land, and many [countries] shall be overthrown: but these shall escape out of his hand, [even] Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon.
Dan 11:42 He shall stretch forth his hand also upon the countries: and the land of Egypt shall not escape.
Dan 11:43 But he shall have power over the treasures of gold and of silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt: and the Libyans and the Ethiopians [shall be] at his steps.
Dan 11:44 But tidings out of the east and out of the north shall trouble him: therefore he shall go forth with great fury to destroy, and utterly to make away many.
Dan 11:45 And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help himHi 942767
I hope you did not expect my answer to be a short one.
Dan. 11:29, is speaking of the King of the north, invading the King of the south. Rome was the King of the north, and Egypt the King of the south. The two successful invasions by Rome were in B.C.30 and in A.D. 269.
In A.D. 565 western leg of Rome collapsed, and was from then on ruled by the image, the Pope, and thereby remaining the King of the north.
France became the military protector of Rome, and you could say, by association the King of the north.
The time appointed was in 1789 when France, Napoleon, invaded Egypt. The reason his invasion was unsuccessful were the ships of Chittim.
Dan. 11:30, the ships of Chittim were the British Royal Navy under Admiral Horatio Nelson, who had been looking for Napoleon. He came from the Island Chittim, now called Cypress. He destroyed Napoleon fleet and rendered him land bound.
Dan. 11:40, is the reason for Napoleon invading Egypt. The Muslim Turks had conquered Egypt in the 10th century, and became the King of the south, and were pushing hard at France in southeast Europe.
Napoleon came with 400 ships and 40,000 troops.
Dan. 11:41, after his ships were destroyed, he tried to fight his way home by land, through Palestine the glorious land.
In Acre, Palestine, the Turks held their ground.
Napoleon was forced to retreat to Egypt. The other country escaped him, because he was not there to conquer. He put up his tabernacle, tent, between the Mediterranean Sea, and the Dead Sea, verse 45.
He did however invade Egypt and took their treasures, verses 42-43.
Dan. 11:44, is the next year, 1799, news reached Napoleon, that England, north, had made alliance with Austria and Russia, east, to fight the French together.
It grieved him to leave his troops behind, verse 30, but with only 3 ships he managed to make it back to France.
At the beginning of the French Revolution the Catholic Church was expelled, thousands of Catholics were massacred. On his way home Napoleon realized it would be to his benefit to reinstate the Church, although his feelings toward any Church had not changed, verse 37.
His god was his army, verse 38.
Dan. 11:36, Napoleon crowned himself emperor, he did as he pleased, and made himself bigger then any other ruler, god. He even dared to stand up against the god of god’s, ruler of ruler’s, the Pope. Napoleon prospered until the indignation, humiliation, of the pope was accomplished. Because that was determent by God.
Napoleon eventually had to give up his throne, he was exiled to an island were a few years later he died, as we read in the last part of verse 45.
I realize I left some scriptures out, they pertain to the saints, and to answer all would be to complex. Please ask me specific scriptures after you read this.Bless you , Georg
Hi Brother Georg:
I see that you are well versed on history. I'll have to study this to see if I can agree.
What about the following verses:
Quote Dan 11:31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily [sacrifice], and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate. This continues where he (whoever he is) plants the tabernacle of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain:
Quote Dan 12:1 ¶ And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation [even] to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame [and] everlasting contempt.
Dan 12:3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.God Bless
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