A spirit, once dead, reborn

Participant

Romans 10:10 For with the heart, one believes unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

June 9, 2006 at 12:52 am#14731

Participant

Hi H,
This verse is commonly used by those who are deceived and think God has made an easier way. No it was written to the saved as reading the first chapter of Romans will confirm. It is showing the jewish converts how to start walking in the Spirit and not turning back to the Law.

June 9, 2006 at 1:02 am#14732

Participant

Acts 8:37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

June 9, 2006 at 11:56 am#14736

Participant

I JOHN 5:7-8
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

3 witnesses in earth agree in one (not are one). What one do they agree on? The One who has a threefold heavenly witness.

1 – water
2 – blood
3 – spirit

There are numerous references to water baptism by the NT Apostles, why did they teach and preach it if it is redundant?

HEBREWS 10:22
Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

I PETER 3:21
The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Now the formula given by Peter in Acts 2:38 was repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.

Two things: First repent – change your thinking – turn about you opinion from that of your former conversation to that of God by His Word. Second – be baptized – immersed in water for remission of sins.
Didn't Jesus tell them whose sins you remit are remitted? – here's one way that is done – not through some confessional box and a human priest.

Look at the parallels in these two verses above – repentance – what does that produce? this washing of the waters of the Word? It produces an answer in the heart – a good conscience towards God, an agreement that His Word is Truth and Life and Light to the soul. What is this? A sprinkling of the heart from an evil conscience to a good conscience towards Him. When they heard this (heard what? – the Word spoken through Peter who was moved by the Holy Spirit) they were pricked in their hearts and cried out 'men and brethren what must we do?'
Pricked in their hearts – condemned – with an evil conscience before God. They were told to repent – turn around – get a good conscience before God.

But that is not all what else? And be baptized – immersed in water for the remission of sins. … and our bodies washed with pure water

How can any have a pure conscience before God if he refuses to be obedient to the ordinances of God?

Now there are three witnesses on earth as previously stated
Water being the first – so what of the blood and the spirit one might ask – where are these in the formula of Acts 2:38?

Repentance and baptism are not general – they must be in the name of Jesus Christ. The name is representative of the life, and more specifically the life given or sacrificed for us.
We know from the OT that life is in the blood, also from the NT that life is in the name – for there is no other name given whereby you must be saved, and no other way to come to life therefore.

So there is your Water and Blood – the promise then follows: …and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit…
Water, Blood and Spirit and all agree in One Spirit, One Body, One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism, One God and Father of all…

So God has three witnesses to His handiwork on the earth, what kind of earthly witnesses of the heavenly God are we with anything less than all three that He has given?

Paul found baptism to be of importance undoubtedly:

ACTS 19:1-6
And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

The baptism of John the Baptist did not suffice, they were re-baptized in the name of Jesus Christ and then – the promise of God was honored – the Holy Ghost came upon them.

Now this is not proof that the Holy Spirit cannot come upon someone before baptism, the book of Acts records one occasion where it did, but did they therefore refuse baptism as unnecessary? No they were immediately baptized.

Now baptism of itself will do nothing for anyone other than make them wet, but baptism in Jesus name having repented will according to the Word of God.

That's just my two cents worth

June 9, 2006 at 10:34 pm#14743

http://www.scripturecatholic.com/baptism.html

Participant

To say that water saves you is denying God's word. It does not save you. It does not cleanse you of your sins. It is believing in Jesus Christ, the Son of God that saves a man. It is the blood of the lamb that washes away our sins.

Water baptism is symbolic of our dead to our sinful nature and our rebirth in Christ. The actual rebirth occurs in the heart. Can one say they know God and not know this? Have you never heard about the circumcision of the heart? This is what happens when one is born again. This is what happens when once is washed in the blood of the lamb. The vail that once covered the heart is removed. Praise God for his amazing grace.

Acts 16:
30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

June 9, 2006 at 11:18 pm#14744

Scripture Seeker

Participant

Quote (heiscomingintheclouds @ June 09 2006,23:34)

Acts 16:
30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Hi H,

Excellent subject, I believe baptism is very important.
I also believe God requires specific sacraments in the New Testament just as he did in the Old Testament. Those sacraments that are in the Old have been fulfilled by the New.

Study the early Church you will find this is not the only sacrament. God requires these sacraments just as he requires us to be joined to our Wife in the Sacrament of marriage.
Baptism is the fulfillment of the old sacrament of circumcision.

This prophecy was even given in the Old Testament.

Eze 36:25 And I WILL POUR UPON YOU CLEAN WATER, and YOU SHALL BE CLEANSED FROM ALL YOUR FILTHINESS, and I will cleanse you from all your idols.
Eze 36:26 AND I WILL GIVE YOU A NEW HEART, AND PUT A NEW SPIRIT WITHIN YOU: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and will give you a heart of flesh.

Circumcision which was done under the Old Law on the 8th day after a Child was born was fulfilled by baptism.

Col 2:11 IN WHOM ALSO YOU ARE CIRCUMCISED WITH CIRCUMCISION NOT MADE BY HAND in despoiling of the body of the flesh: BUT IN THE CIRCUMCISION OF CHRIST.
Col 2:12 BURIED WITH HIM IN BAPTISM: IN WHOM ALSO YOU ARE RISEN AGAIN by the faith of the operation of God who hath raised him up from the dead.
Col 2:13 And you, when YOU WERE DEAD IN YOUR SINS AND THE UNCIRCUMCISION OF YOUR FLESH, he hath QUICKENED TOGETHER WITH HIM, FORGIVING YOU ALL OFFENCES:

God’s word written by the Holy Spirit testifies of the importance of Baptism.

Act 2:38 But Peter said to them: DO PENANCE: AND BE BAPTIZED EVERY ONE OF YOU in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of your sins. And you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Act 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? RISE UP AND BE BAPTIZED AND WASH AWAY THY SINS, INVOKING HIS NAME.

It is how we are reborn in the creation of the Last Adam.

Joh 3:5 Jesus answered: Amen, amen, I say to thee, UNLESS A MAN BE BORN AGAIN OF WATER AND THE HOLY GHOST, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Just because our heart is open to hear the word of the Lord doesn’t mean we do not have to be baptized.
Act 16:14 And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, one that worshipped God, did hear: WHOSE HEART THE LORD OPENED TO ATTEND TO THOSE THINGS WHICH WERE SAID BY PAUL.
Act 16:15 And when SHE WAS BAPTIZED, AND HER HOUSEHOLD, she besought us, saying: If you have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house and abide there. And she constrained us.

Households where all baptized. (above)
Every single person in the family was to be baptized, including chidren. After all the sacrament is the fulfilling of circumcision.

Act 2:38 But Peter said to them: Do penance: and BE BAPTIZED EVERY ONE OF YOU in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of your sins. And you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 2:39 FOR THE PROMISE IS TO YOU AND TO YOUR CHILDREN AND TO ALL THAT ARE FAR OFF, whomsoever the Lord our God shall call.

Notice that it clearly mentions Children

Luk 18:16 But Jesus, calling them together, said: Suffer children to come to me and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.

Just as children were once circumsized as infants, they are now baptized as infants. The Kingdom of God requires us to be born of water and the Spirit, and who would dare to exclude children from the Kingdom?

In Baptism we are reborn in the new race the Last Adam.

1Co 15:47 The FIRST MAN IS OF THE EARTH, earthy: the SECOND MAN IS THE LORD FROM HEAVEN.
1Co 15:48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

Even though we are all born of the first Adam by nature we must also be born of the image of that which is heavenly.

1Co 15:49 And as we have BORNE THE IMAGE OF THE EARTHY, we shall also BEAR THE IMAGE OF THE HEAVENLY.

There was no question as to whether or not infants should be baptized, in the early church but there was a debate among a few as to whether they should wait to be baptized on the 8th day (the day children were circumcised in the Old Covenant), a concept the Church rejected.

Of course we must confess that Jesus is Lord to be saved.
Act 16:30 And bringing them out, he said: Masters, WHAT MUST I DO, THAT I MAY BE SAVED?
Act 16:31 But they said: BELIEVE IN THE LORD JESUS: and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

But remember God also fulfills his Old Covenants with new ones.

Act 16:32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.
Act 16:33 And he took them the same hour of the night, AND WASHED THEIR STRIPES; AND WAS BAPTIZED, HE AND ALL HIS, STRAIGHTWAY.

We can see the importance of Baptism here also, from above it says that Paul took them that same hour to be baptized. This means that the jailer and all his family were baptized in the middle of the night. Remember he was awakened from his sleep.

Act 16:27 And the keeper of the prison, AWAKENING OUT OF HIS SLEEP and seeing the doors of the prison open, drawing his sword, would have killed himself, supposing that the prisoners had been fled.

So the word of God shows it’s quite an urgent matter. So PLEASE if you haven’t been baptized look into it.

Act 10:47 Then Peter answered: CAN ANY MAN FORBID WATER, THAT THESE SHOULD NOT BE BAPTIZED, who have received the Holy Ghost, as well as we?

Here is one of the better resources I have on Baptism it covers the early Churches teachings as well. It should answer any other question you have.

God Bless you.

June 9, 2006 at 11:38 pm#14746

Participant

Hi SS

Good thoughts.

Hi heiscomingintheclouds

I agree that baptism doesn't save anyone, no works of man can or do.
Even as a marraige ceremony does not gaurantee that the observers are joined together in the sight of God, even if a minister officiates and it is done in the name of the Lord.
There are many marraiges past and present that prove this point.

Yet we are required to be married if we would take a partner in union to share our lives.
In like fashion we should be baptised with water in my opinion – in obedience to the faith we have recieved of Him.

June 9, 2006 at 11:45 pm#14747

Participant

Scripture Seeker,
Where these men who had recieve the Holy Spirit saved, since they had not yet been baptized by water?

June 10, 2006 at 12:05 am#14748

Participant

Dear malcolm,

I do not know how anyone can believe such hogwash as water baptism saves us. When we ask Jesus into our hearts, is it not the inside of the man that is changed? Can water do this? It is only through the blood of the lamb can one be cleansed of sin. When we believe in Jesus with all of our heart, he washes away ours sins. It is the blood of Christ that cleanses the inside of the man.

You know the truth malcolm. If you didn't you would not have agreed with me. Those who believe water baptism saves a man do not stand on the full gospel. They take parts and base their doctrine on those parts. We must pray that the Lord open their eyes and their hearts. We live in a world where apostasy has control of world religion. Corruption of God's word was the beginning of apostasy. When the church was no longer in one accord, then came all the diverse religions, this was the age of apostasy. This was spoken of in Thess. referring to the falling away. This has been occuring for centuries.

June 10, 2006 at 3:16 am#14761

Participant

Hi heiscomingintheclouds

Yes the blood saves, it is by the life that is in the blood that we live.
Blood has always been the one acceptable way in which man can return to God.
From the garden of Eden where God first provided coverings for His fallen children.
And gave the promise of a better blood, from a better life than the natural lamb.
The blood of the Lamb of God which takes away the sin of the world.
Always the road of redemption has been by blood,
first in a shadow under the Law and the blood of animals which only covered sin for a season,
then in the real under the Grace of God and the blood of the Son of God which saves to the utmost.

June 10, 2006 at 10:29 pm#14773

Scripture Seeker

Participant

Quote (heiscomingintheclouds @ June 10 2006,00:45)

Scripture Seeker,
Where these men who had recieve the Holy Spirit saved, since they had not yet been baptized by water?

Hi Heiscommingintheclouds,

I agree once we accept Jesus as our Lord and Saviour we are saved, no questions here!

Do you believe that every one who says lord lord will enter the kingdom of heaven?

1Co 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that JESUS IS THE LORD, BUT BY THE HOLY GHOST.

Mat 7:20 WHEREFORE BY THEIR FRUITS YE SHALL KNOW THEM.
Mat 7:21 NOT EVERY ONE THAT SAITH UNTO ME, LORD, LORD, SHALL ENTER INTO THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

That’s right we have to do the will of the Father!
Do you believe once saved always saved or do you believe we are saved by faith alone and not Grace alone?

The idea that we are saved by faith alone has lead the man made churches away from the truth. It is not our faith ALONE that saves us but it’s THE LORDS GRACE ALONE.
He teaches clearly that he will give his free gift of salvation to those that believe in him AND show the fruits of the spirit. Faith is just one of the fruits of the spirit, faith is received by hope just as the fruit of love is also. What is the greatest fruit of the spirit? Will you be judged on the fruits of faith only and not the fruits of love?

Scripture clearly states that we must be baptized, is this not the will of the Father. What does mat 7:21 say about doing HIS will.

Who makes the rules?

God Bless

June 11, 2006 at 5:21 am#14775

Participant

Amen

For by grace are ye save through faith and that not of yourself it is the gift of God, not of works lest any man should boast.

June 11, 2006 at 8:11 am#14778

Scripture Seeker

Participant

Thanks Malcolm,

I totally agree, no amount of OUR OWN Faith or Works is enough to receive salvation. Otherwise it wouldn’t be a free gift and it would make void the wonderful sacrifice of our Lord.

Heiscomingintheclouds

Sorry if I’m wrong but it appears that you believe in the idea of faith alone.
It is true that faith is very important and without it we can’t be Justified! But it is also important to note that our Lord also tells us he gives us this free gift by the works of the spirit that are manifested in us as well.

Those who don’t understand the old ceremonial law and the new law that is written in our hearts must have real trouble with Romans 3:28 and Romans 2:13, one says we are NOT justified by law and the other says WE ARE Justified by the Law.

Rom 3:28 For we account a man to be justified by faith, WITHOUT THE WORKS OF THE LAW.
Rom 3:30 For it is one God that justifieth CIRCUMCISION by faith and UNCIRCUMCISION through faith.
Rom 3:1 What advantage then hath the Jew: or WHAT IS THE PROFIT OF CIRCUMCISION?

COMPARE

Rom 2:13 For not the hearers of the law are just before God: BUT THE DOERS OF THE LAW SHALL BE JUSTIFIED.
Rom 2:15 Who shew the work of the LAW WRITTEN IN THEIR HEARTS, their CONSCIENCE BEARING WITNESS TO THEM: and their thoughts between themselves accusing or also defending one another,

This is because the new law is the Law of Love that Worketh [Charity] which there is no law against.

Gal 5:22 BUT THE FRUIT OF THE SPIRIT IS, CHARITY, joy, peace, patience, benignity, goodness, longanimity,
Gal 5:23 Mildness, FAITH, modesty, continency, chastity. AGAINST SUCH THERE IS NO LAW.

Just as the word mentions we are Justified by faith and does not mention works. The word also mentions works and not faith. This does not mean we need faith only or works only it means we need both. Romans 2:13 does not mention faith just as Romans 2:6 does not mention faith either.

Rom 2:6 WHO WILL RENDER TO EVERY MAN ACCORDING TO HIS WORKS.

Jam 2:25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot JUSTIFIED BY WORKS, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

This is why the Holy Spirit used James to make this teaching crystal clear. First James tells us that we are Justified by works and then drives the message home by saying we are NOT justified by faith only. “Only” is the same greek word [monon, mon'-on] used for ALONE.

Jam 2:24 Ye see then how that BY WORKS A MAN IS JUSTIFIED, and NOT BY FAITH ONLY.

It doesn’t even matter if we have ALL faith.

1Co 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; AND THOUGH I HAVE ALL FAITH, SO THAT I COULD REMOVE MOUNTAINS, and HAVE NOT CHARITY, I AM NOTHING.

Satan has been so clever and has excluded the greatest fruit of the spirit in our Justification.

1Co 13:13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, THESE THREE; but THE GREATEST OF THESE IS CHARITY.

People who think they can storm there way into heaven and receive the free gift of salvation by faith without true works of love need to look into this subject. There are many many scriptures to show we need works of love and a lot of them are spoken directly by our Lord.

Jesus said.

Mat 7:22 MANY will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not PROPHESIED IN THY NAME? and IN THY NAME have CAST OUT DEVILS? and IN THY NAME DONE MANY WONDERFUL WORKS?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

HE also told us not to marvel at the idea of good works.

Joh 5:28 MARVEL NOT AT THIS: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have DONE GOOD, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Heiscomingintheclouds

Sorry to go off the subject but I hope this addresses the issue that all you need is Faith!
Faith which comes from hope initially saves us but the word of God makes it clear that BAPTISM IS NEEDED just as works of Love are also.

God Bless you.

June 11, 2006 at 8:27 am#14779

Participant

Quote (heiscomingintheclouds @ June 09 2006,23:34)

Acts 16:
30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Hi H,
And is you read the next couple of verses in Acts you will see what fruit of faith and obedience that God required. The details of HOW God works I leave to Him. Obedience to His requirements is what we are required to preach.

June 11, 2006 at 8:31 am#14780

Participant

Quote (Scripture Seeker @ June 10 2006,23:29)

I agree once we accept Jesus as our Lord and Saviour we are saved, no questions here!

Hi ss,
You may be completely satisfied by this teaching but it leaves a lot of questions for us.
Where is this way of salvation taught in the bible?
Is it not rather from the presumptions of men?

June 11, 2006 at 5:14 pm#14787

Participant

Dear Scripture Seeker,
Do I believe that a person will lose their salvation if they are not baptized? God forbid. They will not. What about one who is on the way to church to get baptized and is killed in a car wreck? The person was born again, but had not recieved water baptism. Would they not still go to heaven? Jesus said a man must be born again to enter into the kingdom of heaven. He did not say he had to be baptized in water. A A man must be baptized in blood. Although we should be baptized in water, it will not cause one to lose their salvation with one acception. I believe if one is born again, if they refused to be baptized, then, maybe then, they may lose their salvation, but I do not know. This would be for God to decide.

June 11, 2006 at 7:30 pm#14791

Participant

Hi,
Does faith save?
Does repentance save?
Does baptism save[water baptism]?
Does the Spirit save?

Yes Yes Yes Yes
All are essential. And God does His works too.

But that does not say any are unnecessary either.

June 11, 2006 at 7:58 pm#14793

Participant

Nick, you don't have to believe God's word. I choose to believe God's word. It is if you believe with all of your heart that Jesus Christ is the son of God, you will be saved
Acts 2:21 It will be, that whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved.
Romans 10:9 that if you will confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Romans 10:13 For, “Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be
saved.”
1 Corinthians 1:21 For seeing that in the wisdom of God, the world through its wisdom didn't know God, it was God's good pleasure through the foolishness of the preaching to save those who believe.

Nick, I believe it is essential also that we should have all the baptisms. On this I am in complete agreement. What I am in disagreement with you on is if you are lacking in water baptism or that of the baptism of the Holy Ghost, that this will result in the loss of one's salvation. This couldn't be further from the truth. No where in scripture does it say that. It says a man must be born again to enter the kingdom of heaven period. What if a man is born again and nobody tells him he needs to be baptized? Will he lose his salvation. Will he go to hell? Not hardly. My God wouldn't do that. I don't know about yours.

June 11, 2006 at 7:59 pm#14794