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I must have thought that was really important, I said it twice.
But seriously T8, your definition of religion and faith does not seem to be the generally accepted definition of those two words.
Perhaps you can tell us what they mean to you.Tim
Quote (TimothyVI @ Oct. 26 2012,02:21) Quote (Stu @ Oct. 25 2012,22:19) Quote (t8 @ Oct. 25 2012,22:11) Quote (t8 @ Oct. 26 2012,00:27) Quote (TimothyVI @ Oct. 26 2012,00:15) Yes it is. Even if they do not believe in a creator God, they do believe in various gods and angels. And they have faith that these things exist.
And scientists believe that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe.So not a religion.
Makes perfect sense TimothyVI.
Further, many scientists and mathematicians believe in higher dimensions. So when you believe in beings that occupy these higher dimensions its a religion, and when you believe in 3 dimensional beings from a different world, it is not a religion.Okay got it now I think. Um, actually please explain.
You seem not to have grasped the dictionary definition of the term “religion”.Stuart
I think that is the crux of the problem.
Tim
Unfortunately for you guys is you also believe like the Buddhists who are religious and don't believe in God.Trying to make out that you are better or more knowledgeable than those who believe in God is a bit rich when you yourself have proven that you are not neutral on issues regarding the universe and other things. Not to mention that only fools deny the existence of God.
Delusion can be comforting when you don't want to face the basic reality that the universe didn't come from nothing and it also hasn't existed forever. And ignoring an eternal God leaves you with no explanation and hence no clue on such matters.
Anyway carry on with foolishness of denying God. Enjoy the ride, it won't last long.
Quote (TimothyVI @ Oct. 26 2012,02:35) I must have thought that was really important, I said it twice. But seriously T8, your definition of religion and faith does not seem to be the generally accepted definition of those two words.
Perhaps you can tell us what they mean to you.Tim
Sorry Tim. But believing that the universe came from nothing is not the same as believing in nothing or being neutral on such matters.You have opinions and a stance on the causes or existence of the universe and reality, even by denying certain options, you are no longer neutral on the issue. So you are definitely in the camp as much as Buddhists are. No different to them.
You can continue to pretend you are not religious, but you are not fooling me, only yourself. many religious people are deluded, you included.
You have a belief system as testimony of the arguments you make here, and further you have faith too, because you show confidence in your stance.
Colter,
I'll be honest,
One thing thats starting to annoy me is all you give me is platitudes and nothing to back up what you say.
And I don't like how I have asked questions that go unanswered and asked you to consider the substance I have offered to back up my claims, and your only rebuttal is that you just “can't” or “refuse” to believe it.
Good luck with digging a hole in the sand and sticking your head in there so you won't see how things are.
In a sense its irresponsible of you, If I'm wrong and in the wrong I would like to know why, and what substance has brought you to that conclusion. Show me.Yet you still haven't done so.
Quote The loving Mature Father does correct and chastise, but that does not come close to justifying a philosophy that had the Father creating an evil counterpart to work against his will or send out liars, or regret that he ever created man etc. That's God created in mans own image.
Opinions and platitudes.
God can use anyone, haven't you heard that phrase before?
Again, he sent a lying spirit, don't exagerate my claims, and yet his prophet still revealed what was actually going on.Quote There were more books in the Bible collection that were considered to be “inspired” in the first 300 years of the Christian movement but the church un-inspired them.
Sure, like the book of Adam or Enoch? Which the book of Adam falsly puts the devil as a victem and what not.Quote The books “about” Jesus were all that we had, the grave, contaminating mistake that corrupted the gospel against Jesus' warnings, came when the “new wine” was put into the old wine skins. The redacted, edited, historically inaccurate Old Testament books, written by the elite Hebrew priest class in Babylon have contaminated the gospel of Jesus only to be further complicated by the Pagan concepts of human sacrifice.
I totally agree that the bible is corrupted, but by what measure do YOU establish truth, becuase so far its sounds like you just cherry pick whatever you want and choose what to believe and what not.For example the bible will never give you the idea that the devil rebelled against God, in fact the only reason you would think so becasue SOMEONE told you.
The same thing with the trinity.
Quote look at the Bible much like a flea market, I have to take what's true and leave the rest.
a ha, lol you just answered my question. Thanks now I know how you shop through the scriptures only intrested what fits your carnal speculations.Here is an example of establishing truth, you gave me the impression that your cherrying picking out of the bible, and than you confirm it with your own words that you see it as a flea market. Now I know the impression I had is true, espeacially when your contentions are baseless.
Dennison
Quote (t8 @ Oct. 25 2012,22:38) Quote (Stu @ Oct. 26 2012,01:32) Black holes were a prediction based on models that were in turn based on evidence.
Exactly what I have said all along. Are you paying attention?We can work things out based on evidence and logic.
You don't have to see it.
You are the one who said “evidence of the unseen” was an oxymoron. And you have made similar comments in the past, so not a slip of the keyboard.
Now you are arguing against yourself.
I will leave both Stus to it.
Let me know which Stu wins.
Stu 1 says evidence of things unseen is an oxymoron
Stu 2 says that you can have evidence of things not seen.Getting very late but will return to see which Stu won.
Could you head each post with either Stu 1 or Stu 2, so I can follow the debate.
Thanks.
Where did I say you could have evidence of things not seen?I include all the senses in “seeing”, but apart from that, there's no inconsistency.
I guess it's not a far stretch for someone who makes up Imaginary Friends to make up what other people believe on their behalf.
Stuart
Quote (t8 @ Oct. 25 2012,22:40) Quote (Stu @ Oct. 26 2012,01:37) Do you agree that you would expect the same job to be done in a similar way in the biological world because “code is reused”?
No. I could use a mechanical engine to run a car or as an electrical generator. Same tech, different application.Please focus on my last post. There is a challenge for both Stus.
Thanks.
So if you disagree that the same job would be done in similar ways in the biological world because of common coding, then on what basis do you claim there is common coding?Stuart
Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Oct. 26 2012,14:22) Colter, I'll be honest,
One thing thats starting to annoy me is all you give me is platitudes and nothing to back up what you say.
And I don't like how I have asked questions that go unanswered and asked you to consider the substance I have offered to back up my claims, and your only rebuttal is that you just “can't” or “refuse” to believe it.
Good luck with digging a hole in the sand and sticking your head in there so you won't see how things are.
In a sense its irresponsible of you, If I'm wrong and in the wrong I would like to know why, and what substance has brought you to that conclusion. Show me.Yet you still haven't done so.
Quote The loving Mature Father does correct and chastise, but that does not come close to justifying a philosophy that had the Father creating an evil counterpart to work against his will or send out liars, or regret that he ever created man etc. That's God created in mans own image.
Opinions and platitudes.
God can use anyone, haven't you heard that phrase before?
Again, he sent a lying spirit, don't exagerate my claims, and yet his prophet still revealed what was actually going on.Quote There were more books in the Bible collection that were considered to be “inspired” in the first 300 years of the Christian movement but the church un-inspired them.
Sure, like the book of Adam or Enoch? Which the book of Adam falsly puts the devil as a victem and what not.Quote The books “about” Jesus were all that we had, the grave, contaminating mistake that corrupted the gospel against Jesus' warnings, came when the “new wine” was put into the old wine skins. The redacted, edited, historically inaccurate Old Testament books, written by the elite Hebrew priest class in Babylon have contaminated the gospel of Jesus only to be further complicated by the Pagan concepts of human sacrifice.
I totally agree that the bible is corrupted, but by what measure do YOU establish truth, becuase so far its sounds like you just cherry pick whatever you want and choose what to believe and what not.For example the bible will never give you the idea that the devil rebelled against God, in fact the only reason you would think so becasue SOMEONE told you.
The same thing with the trinity.
Quote look at the Bible much like a flea market, I have to take what's true and leave the rest.
a ha, lol you just answered my question. Thanks now I know how you shop through the scriptures only intrested what fits your carnal speculations.Here is an example of establishing truth, you gave me the impression that your cherrying picking out of the bible, and than you confirm it with your own words that you see it as a flea market. Now I know the impression I had is true, espeacially when your contentions are baseless.
Dennison
SimplyForgiven,And I will be honest with you, I lack the enthusiasm to waste time digging up quotes from the book collection which comprises the the Bible because I've been there and done that with other people who believe God wrote the Bible and use the >same book< to defend a doctrine very different from your particular doctrine.
The rebuttals are generally the same as yours, the contention that mans carnal reasoning (even when combined with a spirit born mind) fails man, only the cult can think for man, only ecclesiastical authority can hope to help stupid man with the ways of God. The bogus story of “original sin” bringing death to earth and relegating man to hopeless stupidity has stunted mans spiritual growth and left him hopelessly stranded in the past.
I could quote the prophet Micah:
4 But they shall sit every man under his vine and under his fig tree; and none shall make them afraid: for the mouth of the Lord of hosts hath spoken it.
5 For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of the Lord our God for ever and ever.
Is it any wonder that the so called “religious authorities” rebelled against the Prophets repeatedly, even killing them.
My platitudes annoy you because your authoritarian indoctrination, by the so called authorities of religion, has lead you to believe things because of the supposed source NOT because your heart perceives truth in the words. The highest religious authorities of the OT scriptures rejected Jesus, they still reject Jesus because he was very different than their scripture based expectations.
Jesus was unconventional, he freed man from the yoke of traditional barrenness and taught man to have a personal, faith based relationship with a personal God. Jesus challenged the religions of authority.
Take the story of Noah for example, contemporary Christians believe that story because it came from the supposed inspired word of God, not because it sounds at all true. The Flood story came about as the result of the elite priestly editors in Babylon trying to trace their all important blood lines back to a much older Adam and Eve story. Unable to do so they decided to “drown the whole world in it's own wickedness” using a well known much smaller flood legend in their new writings.
The priest who wrote or rewrote Genesis DID NOT claim to be writing “the word of God” rather it was the story of the Hebrews that was intended FOR the scattered Hebrews who had lost their nation of Israel and were once again in bondage in Babylon.
Ezekiel saw the envisioned the fall of the crafty beast but I'm guessing you will rationalize that way in favor of God having an evil will manifest in the creation of an evil Satan.
Ezekiel 28:12–18
12 z“Son of man, araise a lamentation over bthe king of Tyre, and say to him, Thus says the Lord God:
“You were the signet of perfection,1
cfull of wisdom and dperfect in beauty.
13 You were in eEden, the garden of God;
fevery precious stone was your covering,
gsardius, topaz, and diamond,
beryl, onyx, and jasper,
sapphire,2 femerald, and carbuncle;
and crafted in gold were your settings
and your engravings.3
iOn the day that you were created
they were prepared.
14 You were an anointed jguardian cherub.
I placed you;4 you were on kthe holy mountain of God;
in the midst of the stones of fire you walked.
15 You were blameless in your ways
lfrom the day you were created,
till unrighteousness was found in you.
16 In the abundance of myour trade
you were filled with violence in your midst, and you sinned;
so I cast you as a profane thing from kthe mountain of God,
and I destroyed you,5 jO guardian cherub,
from the midst of the stones of fire.
17 nYour heart was proud because of oyour beauty;
you corrupted your wisdom for the sake of y
our splendor.I cast you to the ground;
I exposed you before kings,
to feast their eyes on you.
18 By the multitude of your iniquities,
in the unrighteousness of your trade
you profaned your sanctuaries;
so pI brought fire out from your midst;
it consumed you,
and I turned you to ashes on the earth
qin the sight of all who saw you.
Colter
Colter,
Quote And I will be honest with you, I lack the enthusiasm to waste time digging up quotes from the book collection which comprises the the Bible because I've been there and done that with other people who believe God wrote the Bible and use the >same book< to defend a doctrine very different from your particular doctrine.
I know of very few who would agree with things I say.
The bible is a dangerous book that has brought out many different doctrines but like I said before God isn't confined to a leather bound book. The only way to establish truth, is to know God, or know what He isn't. Even a fool can understand more than the wisest, because human beings over complicate things, when in reality things are quite simple.Quote
The rebuttals are generally the same as yours, the contention that mans carnal reasoning (even when combined with a spirit born mind) fails man, only the cult can think for man, only ecclesiastical authority can hope to help stupid man with the ways of God. The bogus story of “original sin” bringing death to earth and relegating man to hopeless stupidity has stunted mans spiritual growth and left him hopelessly stranded in the past.
Actually I haven't made any of those claims, so I don't understand how you continue to make more implications about what I believe when you haven't cared to ask. I guess its a waste of your time eh?Quote
Is it any wonder that the so called “religious authorities” rebelled against the Prophets repeatedly, even killing them.My platitudes annoy you because your authoritarian indoctrination, by the so called authorities of religion, has lead you to believe things because of the supposed source NOT because your heart perceives truth in the words. The highest religious authorities of the OT scriptures rejected Jesus, they still reject Jesus because he was very different than their scripture based expectations.
What authorities of religion do you speak of? I don't know of who you speak of as a person responsible to leading me to any other alterniate source. You see you obvisously don't know what your talking about sir. Actually for some odd reason I believe the things I do through experience, and from the circumstances that have happen to me. Btw my heart doesn't perceive truth, I wouldn't trust my or your own heart. We don't know it.
In the end there is no arguement with truth, it is what it is.
no matter what whether you believe or not, the absolute truth doesn't change. You can believe there isn't a Sun all you want, but in the end it's still going to be there. You can close your eyes, lock youself into you room, dig a hole and put your head in there. Regardless, its the truth.There was a time where the bible didn't exist, there was time where there was no access to scripture, so therefore one can conclude that when had to come to witness the truth, in order to perceive it. Its the same today.
You annoy me, because of “your authoritarian indoctrination, by the so called authorities of religion, has lead you to believe things because of the supposed source NOT because your (God has caused you to) perceive truth in the words.”As I said before, its YOU who choose to only cherry pick the bible. its YOU who obviosuly have been indoctrinated by an “Authority” who has caused you to believe these fallacies, because you never received the truth.
Quote your authoritarian indoctrination, by the so called authorities of religion, has lead you to believe things because of the supposed source NOT because your heart perceives truth in the words.
You know whats funny and annoying, is that at first you reject the story of Noah, Adam and Eve, Job and etc. Yet you take Ezekiel 28 as a literal reference to the “fall of satan and his rebellion”? Wow. “Well Dennison all these stories are fake, but this one right here that talks about thisss mystical Angel who got angry, try to stab God in the back, and now has a war against God is real.”If that isn't stupid, than I don't know what is.
Seriously you talk about sense, and how man can use reasoning to come to understand God yet you have none of it. Talk about a living contradiction.
You say you believe Jesus and yet you might as well call him a Liar. The bible says that NOBODY seeks God, yet you say we have halted our spiritual growth because indepndantly using our reasoning skills we can understand the Almighty?Your better suited to be a athiest, and might as well be.
Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Oct. 27 2012,10:27) Colter, Quote And I will be honest with you, I lack the enthusiasm to waste time digging up quotes from the book collection which comprises the the Bible because I've been there and done that with other people who believe God wrote the Bible and use the >same book< to defend a doctrine very different from your particular doctrine.
I know of very few who would agree with things I say.
The bible is a dangerous book that has brought out many different doctrines but like I said before God isn't confined to a leather bound book. The only way to establish truth, is to know God, or know what He isn't. Even a fool can understand more than the wisest, because human beings over complicate things, when in reality things are quite simple.Quote
The rebuttals are generally the same as yours, the contention that mans carnal reasoning (even when combined with a spirit born mind) fails man, only the cult can think for man, only ecclesiastical authority can hope to help stupid man with the ways of God. The bogus story of “original sin” bringing death to earth and relegating man to hopeless stupidity has stunted mans spiritual growth and left him hopelessly stranded in the past.
Actually I haven't made any of those claims, so I don't understand how you continue to make more implications about what I believe when you haven't cared to ask. I guess its a waste of your time eh?Quote
Is it any wonder that the so called “religious authorities” rebelled against the Prophets repeatedly, even killing them.My platitudes annoy you because your authoritarian indoctrination, by the so called authorities of religion, has lead you to believe things because of the supposed source NOT because your heart perceives truth in the words. The highest religious authorities of the OT scriptures rejected Jesus, they still reject Jesus because he was very different than their scripture based expectations.
What authorities of religion do you speak of? I don't know of who you speak of as a person responsible to leading me to any other alterniate source. You see you obvisously don't know what your talking about sir. Actually for some odd reason I believe the things I do through experience, and from the circumstances that have happen to me. Btw my heart doesn't perceive truth, I wouldn't trust my or your own heart. We don't know it.
In the end there is no arguement with truth, it is what it is.
no matter what whether you believe or not, the absolute truth doesn't change. You can believe there isn't a Sun all you want, but in the end it's still going to be there. You can close your eyes, lock youself into you room, dig a hole and put your head in there. Regardless, its the truth.There was a time where the bible didn't exist, there was time where there was no access to scripture, so therefore one can conclude that when had to come to witness the truth, in order to perceive it. Its the same today.
You annoy me, because of “your authoritarian indoctrination, by the so called authorities of religion, has lead you to believe things because of the supposed source NOT because your (God has caused you to) perceive truth in the words.”As I said before, its YOU who choose to only cherry pick the bible. its YOU who obviosuly have been indoctrinated by an “Authority” who has caused you to believe these fallacies, because you never received the truth.
Quote your authoritarian indoctrination, by the so called authorities of religion, has lead you to believe things because of the supposed source NOT because your heart perceives truth in the words.
You know whats funny and annoying, is that at first you reject the story of Noah, Adam and Eve, Job and etc. Yet you take Ezekiel 28 as a literal reference to the “fall of satan and his rebellion”? Wow. “Well Dennison all these stories are fake, but this one right here that talks about thisss mystical Angel who got angry, try to stab God in the back, and now has a war against God is real.”If that isn't stupid, than I don't know what is.
Seriously you talk about sense, and how man can use reasoning to come to understand God yet you have none of it. Talk about a living contradiction.
You say you believe Jesus and yet you might as well call him a Liar. The bible says that NOBODY seeks God, yet you say we have halted our spiritual growth because indepndantly using our reasoning skills we can understand the Almighty?Your better suited to be a athiest, and might as well be.
SimplyForgiven,Quote The bible says that NOBODY seeks God The Bible was created using books written by people who were seeking God, so your point is silly.
Quote Actually I haven't made any of those claims, so I don't understand how you continue to make more implications about what I believe when you haven't cared to ask. I guess its a waste of your time eh? You told me what you believe many post ago, that God made Satan, that Satan did not fall, that Satan has always been evil.
Quote What authorities of religion do you speak of? The creators of scripture, the redactors and editors of scripture, the organizers of book list that made the different bibles of the different churches. They exploit peoples ignorance and insecurity by telling them not to “think” but to blindly follow outrageous inconsistencies.
Quote You say you believe Jesus and yet you might as well call him a Liar. Jesus didn't call the scripture perfect or the word of God, he just asked people if they had read them meaning that they would have been able to extract the spiritual content while realizing that they were exaggerations and racial centric.
Not everything written in The New York Times is accurate but one can get a general idea of the news.
Colter
Quote (Colter @ Oct. 27 2012,20:03) SimplyForgiven, Quote The bible says that NOBODY seeks God The Bible was created using books written by people who were seeking God, so your point is silly.
Quote Actually I haven't made any of those claims, so I don't understand how you continue to make more implications about what I believe when you haven't cared to ask. I guess its a waste of your time eh? You told me what you believe many post ago, that God made Satan, that Satan did not fall, that Satan has always been evil.
Quote What authorities of religion do you speak of? The creators of scripture, the redactors and editors of scripture, the organizers of book list that made the different bibles of the different churches. They exploit peoples ignorance and insecurity by telling them not to “think” but to blindly follow outrageous inconsistencies.
Quote You say you believe Jesus and yet you might as well call him a Liar. Jesus didn't call the scripture perfect or the word of God, he just asked people if they had read them meaning that they would have been able to extract the spiritual content while realizing that they were exaggerations and racial centric.
Not everything written in The New York Times is accurate but one can get a general idea of the news.
Colter
Quote The Bible was created using books written by people who were seeking God, so your point is silly.
Yet you take their wordds in attempt to present the fallacy that the devil fell from heaven in rebellion towards God?Quote The rebuttals are generally the same as yours, the contention that mans carnal reasoning (even when combined with a spirit born mind) fails man, only the cult can think for man, only ecclesiastical authority can hope to help stupid man with the ways of God. The bogus story of “original sin” bringing death to earth and relegating man to hopeless stupidity has stunted mans spiritual growth and left him hopelessly stranded in the past.
^^^ This is what you implied.Quote The creators of scripture, the redactors and editors of scripture, the organizers of book list that made the different bibles of the different churches. They exploit peoples ignorance and insecurity by telling them not to “think” but to blindly follow outrageous inconsistencies.
Right right the people that you quote to prove your false assertion about the devils fall. How intelligent of you.Quote Jesus didn't call the scripture perfect or the word of God, he just asked people if they had read them meaning that they would have been able to extract the spiritual content while realizing that they were exaggerations and racial centric. Not everything written in The New York Times is accurate but one can get a general idea of the news.
God never promised to keep the english language or any language consistant. He said he would keep his word, which is the truth that doesn't change.Honestly Im done with you, you quote scriptures as proof for your false claims, though you discredit them. So in the end, your contradicting yourself and cherry pick.
You make no sense.
Dennison
Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Oct. 28 2012,03:01) Quote (Colter @ Oct. 27 2012,20:03) SimplyForgiven, Quote The bible says that NOBODY seeks God The Bible was created using books written by people who were seeking God, so your point is silly.
Quote Actually I haven't made any of those claims, so I don't understand how you continue to make more implications about what I believe when you haven't cared to ask. I guess its a waste of your time eh? You told me what you believe many post ago, that God made Satan, that Satan did not fall, that Satan has always been evil.
Quote What authorities of religion do you speak of? The creators of scripture, the redactors and editors of scripture, the organizers of book list that made the different bibles of the different churches. They exploit peoples ignorance and insecurity by telling them not to “think” but to blindly follow outrageous inconsistencies.
Quote You say you believe Jesus and yet you might as well call him a Liar. Jesus didn't call the scripture perfect or the word of God, he just asked people if they had read them meaning that they would have been able to extract the spiritual content while realizing that they were exaggerations and racial centric.
Not everything written in The New York Times is accurate but one can get a general idea of the news.
Colter
Quote The Bible was created using books written by people who were seeking God, so your point is silly.
Yet you take their wordds in attempt to present the fallacy that the devil fell from heaven in rebellion towards God?Quote The rebuttals are generally the same as yours, the contention that mans carnal reasoning (even when combined with a spirit born mind) fails man, only the cult can think for man, only ecclesiastical authority can hope to help stupid man with the ways of God. The bogus story of “original sin” bringing death to earth and relegating man to hopeless stupidity has stunted mans spiritual growth and left him hopelessly stranded in the past.
^^^ This is what you implied.Quote The creators of scripture, the redactors and editors of scripture, the organizers of book list that made the different bibles of the different churches. They exploit peoples ignorance and insecurity by telling them not to “think” but to blindly follow outrageous inconsistencies.
Right right the people that you quote to prove your false assertion about the devils fall. How intelligent of you.Quote Jesus didn't call the scripture perfect or the word of God, he just asked people if they had read them meaning that they would have been able to extract the spiritual content while realizing that they were exaggerations and racial centric. Not everything written in The New York Times is accurate but one can get a general idea of the news.
God never promised to keep the english language or any language consistant. He said he would keep his word, which is the truth that doesn't change.Honestly Im done with you, you quote scriptures as proof for your false claims, though you discredit them. So in the end, your contradicting yourself and cherry pick.
You make no sense.
Dennison
SimplyForgiven,Carried to the end the fallacy of your doctrine is that God and Satan are in partnership for one purpose. Satan and your God are one and the same “will”.
See ya in the funny papers.
Colter
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