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First off I shall address the English NIV copyright notices. You may read them here
http://bible.gospelcom.net/version….〈=2
but for the most part I may not repost verses from the NIV on the Internet. Please read paragraph 3 sentence 2 for this. You may of course look up these verses yourself in your own NIV Bible or with the links I shall be linking to these postings with soon enough. I might as well put out the KJV version of these verses to since they can be used freely and are not subject to copyright.
Part 2a: The confusion of the following scriptures.
Key Code:
Green: Verses set forth by this site to reason against the Trinity.
Red: Verses set forth by WhiteMateria in response to the verses in green.1 John 4:12, 1 Timothy 1:17, 1 Timothy 6:15-16 (English-NIV)
Question: Why is it the author of the Trinity articles found at https://heavennet.net/writings/trinity-2.htm? does not use the NIV for the verse in John 1:18? So far the English NIV seems to be the standard… Lets take a look at what the author's favorite version has to say.
John 1:18 (English-NIV)
Question: Could this translation possably being saying that God, the One and Only, is at the Father's side? Is God so confused that he is now beside himself? It would appear that a verse that counterdicts the author's beliefs was the reason for this switchup. We shall dub these as 'Switch-up discrepancies'
But that is besides the point!
The argument: Have not many a peeps seen Jesus Christ? So how can he be God?Here is the real issue at hand…
Exodus 24:11 (English-NIV)Question: Was this also Jesus Christ whom the leaders of Isreal saw as well? If so please show evidence to support this claim.
You've found evidence this verse refers to Jesus Christ
> Congradulations are in order for finding something I cannot. Yet the text says God and you've just made the claim Jesus is God.
You've found no evidence whatsoever this verse refers to Jesus Christ
> Congradulations are in order for reading it clearly. Yet the text says that the elders of Isreal saw God.Notes: The Bible is very clear that the elders of Isreal did see God. To say otherwise is to refute that one verse from the Bible. Otherwise an explination is required to make this scripture fit in harmony with the others and still be truth.
——————————————
——————————————Jhn 5:23 KJV NIV
That all [men] should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
Isa 42:8 KJV NIV
I [am] the LORD: that [is] my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.To accept and believe what Jesus says as truth one cannot see Jesus as 'another' or else it goes against what YHWH has said. In the first passage Jesus is saying that we should honor him just like we honor the father. Granted that the father has already exclaimed such glory belongs only to himself. If you truely believe in your heart what Jesus said then listen to what else he has to say.
John 12:44 KJV NIV
Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me.Jhn 8:19 KJV NIV
Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also.Critical Thinking:
If Moses had given the children of Isreal a new commandment himself would he have such authority?
If Jesus had given us a new commandment himself would he have such authority?To find out lets see what God has to say about his own commandments!
Jesus gives us a new commandment!
Deu 4:2 KJV NIV
Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish [ought] from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.Jhn 13:34 KJV NIV
A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.Jesus has the nerve to call himself 'Lord over the Sabbeth' when God has already addressed that 'the sabbath' is 'of the LORD thy God'!
Exodus 20:8-10 KJV NIV
8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
10 But the seventh day [is] the sabbath of the LORD thy God: [in it] thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that [is] within thy gates:Luke 6:1-5 KJV NIV
1 And it came to pass on the second sabbath after the first, that he went through the corn fields; and his disciples plucked the ears of corn, and did eat, rubbing [them] in [their] hands.
2 And certain of the Pharisees said unto them, Why do ye that which is not lawful to do on the sabbath days?
3 And Jesus answering them said, Have ye not read so much as this, what David did, when himself was an hungred, and they which were with him;
4 How he went into the house of God, and did take and eat the shewbread, and gave also to them that were with him; which it is not lawful to eat but for the priests alone?
5 And he said unto them, That the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.Jesus has the nerve to add to God's law concerning adultry!
Exd 20:14 KJV NIV
Thou shalt not commit adultery.Matthew 5:27-28 KJV NIV
27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.Critical Thinking:
How many of the other commandments did Jesus Christ have the nerve to add to?Jesus made it clear who he was by what he did. You can call him ethier insane for going against that which was reserved for God or you can open y
our mind. He did not leave room open for middle ground. He did not intend to.Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 08 2005,04:48) Hi,
No man has seen God
because
God is Spirit.Is this how the verse appears in your Bible?
11. … they surely did not see God for Nick Hassan has said that God is Spirit …
Well Nick Hasan what does the Bible really say?
Moving on now…
Part 2b: The confusion of the following scriptures.John 17:3 (English-NIV)
Notes: A classic and truely favorite verse of the Jehovah Witnesses, the often blacksheep within the Christian fold. But I like this verse because it lies very near another one.John 17:5 (English-NIV)
AND
Isaiah 42:8 (English-NIV)Wow that Jesus sure had some NERVE to ask for such glory that God clearly said he would not give to another. Jesus must have been a madman or someone who is none other than God.
Hi,
Where was God when Jesus was on earth?Jesus said to pray ” Our Father, who art in heaven..”
Yet he also said “if you have seen me you have seen the Father”Scripture also says” God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself”
It also says “God is at work in YOU to will and to do”Men have seen some manifestations of God, and some have thought they have seen God, but parallel verses show it was the angel of the Lord, but God IS in heaven.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 08 2005,04:58) Hi,
Where was God when Jesus was on earth?Jesus said to pray ” Our Father, who art in heaven..”
Yet he also said “if you have seen me you have seen the Father”Scripture also says” God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself”
It also says “God is at work in YOU to will and to do”Men have seen some manifestations of God, and some have thought they have seen God, but parallel verses show it was the angel of the Lord, but God IS in heaven.
So now the verse in your Bible has been changed to…11. … they saw a manifestation of God …
OR
11. … they saw an angel …
Thats funny… I never got that translation. Even translations that hint at a manifestation are in [] or () to show it was not the part of the translated words from the true scriptures but something thrown in. What does the Bible really say now Nick Hassan?
And now to answer your first question:
Where was God when Jesus was on Earth?I shall let scripture answer that question for you!
John 2:19-22 (English-NIV)
AND
Acts 2:22-24 (English-NIV)Question: Why does Jesus use the word I when later on the scriptures says God raised him (Jesus of Nazareth) from the dead? Is Jesus now suddenly caught in a lie? And now I ask you “where was God when Jesus said to these certain Jews that he would raise up the body of his temple?”
Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 08 2005,05:13) Hi,
Are you searching for truth? Do you fear God and love the Word? you can learn if you are.
It should be fairly obvious there are questions as I go. Do you ever question the Bible and its teachings/verses? Do you ever question the 'ideas' others seem to have concerning God? This is a critical look at one aspect of a common belief. Concerning the divine nature of Jesus Christ and God. And read the posting above for I have edited it to address your question at hand.Hi M,
We have to search and research the Word to show what God has told us through Christ-that scripture cannot be broken. Jesus told us it is truth and we are told to consecrate ourselves to truth.
If we seek the help of the Spirit who wrote it through men God will reveal all it's beauty to us. We do not parade seeming inconsistencies as proof of our intellect but really study those verses to see how that also are true.Hi WhiteMateria,
Just so you know, HeavenNet rule number 1 is: unless you agree with Nick Hassan's doctrine you are not interested in truth and you do not fear God (apparently!!). That is how thing work in here. I, on the other hand, AM interested in what you have to write. Please continue.Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 08 2005,05:33) Hi M,
We have to search and research the Word to show what God has told us through Christ-that scripture cannot be broken. Jesus told us it is truth and we are told to consecrate ourselves to truth.
If we seek the help of the Spirit who wrote it through men God will reveal all it's beauty to us. We do not parade seeming inconsistencies as proof of our intellect but really study those verses to see how that also are true.So what you are saying is to study a verse until it is true. If by study the answer does not come up in truth we should keep quiet and study it again. And if in the end it comes up as a counterdiction we should not address such issues out in the open. Shame on you for such thinking friend. We have a right, nay an obligation to see if such things are really so or not.
Quote But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, First I will confess that I am not a Christian.
I will also say that I used to be a Christian so I understand the Christian mindset. When one is a Christian they believe the Bible is the 100% inspired Word of God and with no errors or conterdictions. When one is a non-Christian that is not the case. A non-Christian can accept the fact that if something in the Bible does not work out it may be in error.Moving onward!
Revelation 2:8 (English-NIV)
Question: Who exactly is this person known as “the First and the Last”/”who died and came to life again”?
Was it:
A. The Angel
B. The Church
C. Smyrna
D. God
E. Jesus Christ
F. The person gettings this Revelation
G. Anyone elseIf you have answered A, B, C, E, F, or G you've just admitted that this person is GOD!
If you have answered E (Jesus Christ) you've just admitted Jesus Christ is GOD!
If you have answered D (God) then you will have to explain how God has died and came to life again as clearly indicated by this scripture.
Questions: If God has died then where else does the Bible support it? Are you in the belief God has never died? If you truely support Jesus Christ is not God then are you willing to accept the fact that God has died as well?
That will be all for tonight. I shall see what the responses are tommorrow and post accordingly.
Part 2c: The confusion of the following scriptures.
1 Corinthians 8:5-6 (English-NIV)
Compare with…
John 20:28 (English-NIV)Question: Did Jesus then say to Thomas… 'No Thomas you are in error with that statement!' or did he go on to say, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”?
Whitemateria,
Can you clarify this statement:
Quote I will also say that I used to be a Christian so I understand the Christian mindset. Thank You!
Quote (Guest @ July 08 2005,23:04) Whitemateria, Can you clarify this statement:
Quote I will also say that I used to be a Christian so I understand the Christian mindset. Thank You!
Yes I can clarify. I was once a Christian myself so I understand how Christians think. I could not say that if I had never been one. In fact I have been a Christian far longer than I have been a non Christian.I still do not understand. Have you rejected Christ?
Quote (Guest @ July 09 2005,00:09) I still do not understand. Have you rejected Christ?
When was the last time you saw a non-Christian attend Church and put his/her heart into it. I stopped attending Church for the right reasons son. I went to hang out with friends, not for true worship so I stopped going. A person should not just 'show face' to God's house. I for one do not believe the Word of God to be infaulable and without error. I believe in a God but I do not believe he is made up of the properties of that particular God in the Bible. If you were to ask me to tell you what God the true is God is that also would not be the case. Christian is what I know and its not like I'm here to tell you I know Muslim or some other religion. However I can still read a Bible and understand it – Its not that hard to read what it is saying. There are two tests that I subject the Bible to and that is it.That you should not add nor subtract anything from the actuall Bible itself. (especially true when there is doctrine floating around about it.) and that Christians view the ENTIRE Bible as truth. Is this not the test setforth by the Bible's own standards?
If there is something in disagreement then I have the obligation to point out a counterdiction and not try to play lingo liguistics until I fool someone else to thinking both are in truth. Most Christians believe that God's Word would remain untampered with but if there are errors and counterdictions in the English version and have been for many many years – Why has not God fixed the problem. For years, nay centuries many have had to rely on the King James Version without the tools and resources of the Internet today.
So to sum things up I am a non-Christian because I do not share the belief that the Bible is 100% without error. And would that not put a foggy light around Jesus Christ as well if that were so the case with you?
If you do not understand by now do not ask again. I have explained it well enough.
Added commentary:
You know you are in trouble when even getting to Heaven is not in harmony with itself.
The common Christian belief in many cases is that you are saved by the blood of Jesus Christ. Lets find out what the Bible has to say about Salvation…
Baptismal Regeneration: (the doctrine that teaches baptism saves you as many Churches of Christ believe)
Mar 16:16- He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Calling upon his name doctrine:
Act 2:21- And it shall come to pass, [that] whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Faith saves you doctrine:
Luk 18:42- And Jesus said unto him, Receive thy sight: thy faith hath saved thee.And if you do just call upon his name where might it lead?
Mat 7:21-23~ 21. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22.Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23. And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.Not only does Jesus say he does not know you for using his name to perform works but it also states that whosoever does the Will of his Father shall enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Then compare that to the common belief that goes something like this “Works do not save you, the Blood of Christ saves you.” This is just a snippet of the confusion and a reason why churches differ in what brings a person salvation.
To WhiteMateria,
There is nothing wrong with quoting from different translations, especially if the meaning is brought out clearer. The NIV was used by default because Gospelcom used that translation as the default. Other translations were used if they do a better job than the NIV with binging out the point(s) clearer. No single translation is perfect, so I do not see a problem here. I think that when one searches for truth, you will search in more than one place.
However if you wish to teach or say that Jesus is YHWH/God, then scripture contradicts your belief. I was simply showing that there are no contradictions because that scripture is talking about the begotten of God, not (God the originator) YHWH.
If you think that John 1:18 is saying that Yeshua is also Yahweh, then your belief contradicts the following scriptures as well as hundreds of other. I have quoted John 1:18 (NIV) to show the conflict with the following scriptures if not understood properly.
John 1:18 (New International Version)
18 No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only,who is at the Father's side, has made him known.Now look at the following:
John 6:46 (English-NIV)
No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father.John 17:3 (English-NIV)
Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.Ephesians 4:4-6 (English-NIV)
4 there is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called
5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism;
6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.So taking your stance on John 1:18 clearly causes conflict with scripture. But if you look at John 1:18 KJV there is no conflict, just harmony.
John 1:18 (KJV)
No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.Now the scriptures are in harmony.
Putting all your eggs in one basket is not wise. Neither is it wise to use just one translation for all your understanding of scripture as there is no perfect translation.
That said however the NIV is not in conflict either if read properly. If you understand that even God begats after his own kind. He begats gods after his own nature. So Jesus is divine and he is the one and only from God. Jesus is theos and elohim, just as we can too. But he is not the God that begat him. He did not begat himself. God begat him, (his son). This truth is important if you consider yourself to have understanding of the truth.
What the teaching that you challenge is trying to show can be concluded in the following verse:
John 8:42 (English NIV)
Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me.Jesus was begotten of God. He is the only begotten one of God. He is OF God. He is FROM God.
Do you believe that or not?
Point 1: I've shown where the versions change from NIV to KJV the first time and it seems to have brought out that which you have just admitted. That there are errors and conterdictions in the Bible. Thank you for making my point for me.
Point 2: I've also address scripture that show that God (YHWH) and not Jesus Christ has been seen by man. Read up in this posting for you've yet to address such issues.
Point 3: Even those who believe in the Trinity believe all of the following…
Jesus was begotten of God.
He is the only begotten one of God.
He is the Son of God.That is the great mystery that lies in the Trinity. What is so special about what you said?
Point 4: There are counterdictions when you try to hold onto that Jesus is not God. But there are far less counterdictions when you hold unto that Jesus is God.
To WhiteMateria,
Quote (WhiteMateria @ July 10 2005,00:05) That there are errors and conterdictions in the Bible.
I actually said that no translation is perfect.Translation has a different meaning to scripture. Try dictionary.com if you are unsure of the difference.
Quote Even those who believe in the Trinity believe all of the following…
Jesus was begotten of God.
He is the only begotten one of God.
He is the Son of God.He he of course they do. But they do not teach that when they say that Jesus is YHWH. You see YHWH became a father when he begat a son, He is the Father). Not that Yeshua is YHWH and he begat himself. That is rediculous and beyond reason. That is why no one understands it because it is rediculous and was instated centuries after the last book in the bible was written. To say one thing and do another proves nothing. Adolph Hitler could say that he was doing the best for mankind, but that doesn't mean that this is what his doctrine was about.
Now to your second point. If you believe that men actually saw God (his form) as apposed to his glory, then you are calling the following people liars.
Paul:
1 Timothy 1:17 (English-NIV)
Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever. Amen.John:
1 John 4:12 (English-NIV)
No one has ever seen God; ….Jesus:
John 1:18 (English-KJV)
No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.Three witnesses that say otherwise. Who shall I believe? You or Paul, John and Jesus?
Even when you look at the account of Moses seeing God, it becomes clear that he actually saw the angel or an angel of the Lord when you read the futher account. Perhaps not all such scriptures have further accounts. But I believe Paul, John. & Jesus anyway.
Put it this way, if you were praying to God and a light filled up the room and you heard a voice, you might too say that you saw God, for that would certainly be a normal human reaction. But technically speaking if I asked you to explain his form, you could not. Unless of course God came by sending an angel and if so, you would be describing the angel to me. In reality you would have seen God's glory.
I think it is clear that no one can see God, but that we can see whom or what he manifests himself in. Even creation shows us the invisible God my friend. But the universe in all it's size and glory is still not God himself. God doesn't walk around like men. No not even the whole universe can contain him. He is Spirit.
Quote (t8 @ July 09 2005,05:43) To WhiteMateria, Quote (WhiteMateria @ July 10 2005,00:05) That there are errors and conterdictions in the Bible.
I actually said that no translation is perfect.Translation has a different meaning to scripture. Try dictionary.com if you are unsure of the difference.
Quote Even those who believe in the Trinity believe all of the following…
Jesus was begotten of God.
He is the only begotten one of God.
He is the Son of God.He he of course they do. But they do not teach that when they say that Jesus is YHWH. You see YHWH became a father when he begat a son, He is the Father). Not that Yeshua is YHWH and he begat himself. That is rediculous and beyond reason. That is why no one understands it because it is rediculous and was instated centuries after the last book in the bible was written. To say one thing and do another proves nothing. Adolph Hitler could say that he was doing the best for mankind, but that doesn't mean that this is what his doctrine was about.
Now to your second point. If you believe that men actually saw God (his form) as apposed to his glory, then you are calling the following people liars.
Paul:
1 Timothy 1:17 (English-NIV)
Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever. Amen.John:
1 John 4:12 (English-NIV)
No one has ever seen God; ….Jesus:
John 1:18 (English-KJV)
No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.Three witnesses that say otherwise. Who shall I believe? You or Paul, John and Jesus?
Even when you look at the account of Moses seeing God, it becomes clear that he actually saw the angel or an angel of the Lord when you read the futher account. Perhaps not all such scriptures have further accounts. But I believe Paul, John. & Jesus anyway.
Put it this way, if you were praying to God and a light filled up the room and you heard a voice, you might too say that you saw God, for that would certainly be a normal human reaction. But technically speaking if I asked you to explain his form, you could not. Unless of course God came by sending an angel and if so, you would be describing the angel to me. In reality you would have seen God's glory.
I think it is clear that no one can see God, but that we can see whom or what he manifests himself in. Even creation shows us the invisible God my friend. But the universe in all it's size and glory is still not God himself. God doesn't walk around like men. No not even the whole universe can contain him. He is Spirit.
Pure rubbish my friend. Oh yes they do teach those beliefs. Even the Catholic Church is good about that.Ever read the second part of the Nicene Creed? The one about Jesus?
http://www.mit.edu/~tb/anglican/intro/lr-nicene-creed.html
This is said at every Mass!
And as far as the elders of Isreal seing God who is truely calling these men liers? If you believe it was me you also believe I wrote that particular verse by my own hand myself. I've got news for you buddy. Since the verse was in there since before I was born I am not responsible for such conterdiction.
If you truely believe the Bible is the inspired Word of God then blame it on God. If not then please name the proper party responsible.
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