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And your proof is proof beyond all resonable doubt.
Just out to curiosity, are you like a Nick student or something?
My proof is not beyond reasonable doubt. Convince me that 'The Comma Johanneum' is scripture. I can be convinced with reasonable evidence.
Yes I am the student of Nick and also anyone who teaches truth here. I may not agree with everything, but I take in what I believe is truth. In that sense I am a student.
Thank you for your honesty T8.
Nick, I came here by the unction of the Holy Spirit. I have been to many different groups. The Lord moved me to do this in this way, and my first instinct was to go to places and preach to the unsaved. Yet, that is not what he wanted me to do. I have been going to christian groups ever since.
Yet, rejoice. I am. For this is by far the closest to truth of God's word of any group I have come across. So don't dismay. I ask you try to understand that the hardest thing to break is a bad habit. I know you all believe that it does not matter what translation. But that is not the truth.
A man with 25 translations can create God in his own image.
If a man tells a lie long enough, he himself will forget it is a lie. What about those who are being lied too?
Everyone wants to know the truth T8 and Nick. Yet, if you really want to know, the best place to go, is God. If you refuse to believe me, then put your faith in God. Fast and pray over this issue and the Lord will let you know beyond all doubt. That is the best advice I can give you. You both claim to walk in the spirit. If you walked in the spirit you would already know this. If you don't believe me, believe God. I love you guys. I don't want you to be angry or to think I am a know it all. I do really love you guys and I do pray for you.
Thanks heiscomingintheclouds.
But it could also be said that a man with the KJV can create God in the image of the KJV. “These 3 are 1”.
However if the word abide in our hearts then we will know truth from error, for the Spirit is the Spirit of Truth.
In that way we should be wise and not think that any one translation is perfect.
Dear T8,
Do you fast? If you do, what would be the harm in not fasting and praying to God with all of your that God reveal to you the truth about his word. If you do it and believe with all of your heart, the Lord will let you know beyond all doubt. He will not forsake you. If you are a born again believer, and you pray with all of your heart, he will lead you to his truth. There is man's truth and there is God's truth. We must learn to decern between the two. Fasting and prayer with a sincere fervert heart is a start.
Quote (heiscomingintheclouds @ June 28 2006,01:29) Thank you for your honesty T8. Nick, I came here by the unction of the Holy Spirit. I have been to many different groups. The Lord moved me to do this in this way, and my first instinct was to go to places and preach to the unsaved. Yet, that is not what he wanted me to do. I have been going to christian groups ever since.
Yet, rejoice. I am. For this is by far the closest to truth of God's word of any group I have come across. So don't dismay. I ask you try to understand that the hardest thing to break is a bad habit. I know you all believe that it does not matter what translation. But that is not the truth.
A man with 25 translations can create God in his own image.
If a man tells a lie long enough, he himself will forget it is a lie. What about those who are being lied too?
Everyone wants to know the truth T8 and Nick. Yet, if you really want to know, the best place to go, is God. If you refuse to believe me, then put your faith in God. Fast and pray over this issue and the Lord will let you know beyond all doubt. That is the best advice I can give you. You both claim to walk in the spirit. If you walked in the spirit you would already know this. If you don't believe me, believe God. I love you guys. I don't want you to be angry or to think I am a know it all. I do really love you guys and I do pray for you.
Hi H,
But you seem to have set yourself and your experiences as the only as the only arbiter of truth.
Is that wise?
Can you learn too or are you yet already unteachable?
Open your ears.Nick, you claim I cannot learn. Is it because I refuse to accept any tranlation other then that of the KJ? If not accepting corrupt translations is not learning, then let it be so.
Quote (heiscomingintheclouds @ June 28 2006,21:19) Dear T8, Do you fast? If you do, what would be the harm in not fasting and praying to God with all of your that God reveal to you the truth about his word. If you do it and believe with all of your heart, the Lord will let you know beyond all doubt. He will not forsake you. If you are a born again believer, and you pray with all of your heart, he will lead you to his truth. There is man's truth and there is God's truth. We must learn to decern between the two. Fasting and prayer with a sincere fervert heart is a start.
I have already done so. When I first became a Christian I fasted and prayed on many things including God proving to me his Word and what books were not. Over time he gave me an understanding that I still have today.Even through lifes' experiences the error in thinking that the KJV is the only bible has been shown to me as being wrong (judging by their fruit). The groups that I have heard preach this have fallen into disrepute, no longer exist, or serious sin has been exposed.
My experience is very different to yours. Can I suggest that we shouldn't mistake the first servant to cross your path as the one that God sends. Rather God confirms his truth and will time and time again. Sometimes the truth takes time for us to understand. It is not always and hardly ever in my experience that the first person to cross your path with a message is the one that God sends. I mean if you believe that, then I can see the enemy rubbing his hands together and thinking on strategies on how to get his servants or a mis-guided servant to cross your path everytime you pray for an answer to something.
Also, facts speak for themselves. I cannot ignore something as simple and serious as the added verse that John didn't pen himself. That alone is enough to make me read more than one translation with a concordance etc, when establishing doctrine.
As it stands the KJV has done more in promoting the Trinity than any other translation out there. I truly believe that I would be foolish to listen to your words regarding the KJV being the only valid translation.
Besides the biggest fruit of the doctrine of KJV is division. It is carnal men who try and bring division on such matters. Yes bring division on false foundational doctrines, but on this matter it is a shame to cause division.
When you ask me to pray and fast about the KJV, to me that probably sounds like me asking you to believe the Good News version and to pray and fast about that.
If I asked you to pray and fast about the Good News bible being the only translation, would you do it?
If I were to fast and pray about God's word, it would not be which a bible, it would be which bible.
Is it so hard to see the damage the devil has done with all the many translations. Look at all the different religions the many translations have created. Are all these religions alright in the eyes of God? Are all of these religions doing the will of God?
The devil has flooded the word with bible translations to confuse and decieve man. How many believers accept evolution? That is not of God, yet most believe it. Where did this come from? By the corruption of God's word.
The first obstacle that I need to see removed before even comtemplating what you say is to have an adequate explantion or proof that 1 John 5:7 is scripture. If you cannot give me an adequate explanation, then I would suggest that you need to rethink your unquestioning faith in the KJV.
Quote PASSOVER OR EASTER? RAPTURE WATCH: On such mistranslation we are convinced concerns their use of the word “Easter” in Acts 12:4. The original word is absolutely not “Easter”, and the translators were careful everywhere else to translate it properly as “Passover”.
“EASTER: PASCHA, mistranslated “Easter” in Acts 12:4. A.V., denotes the Passover (R.V.). The phrase “after the Passover” signifies after the whole festival was at an end. The term Easter is not of Christian origin. It is another form of Astart, one of the titles of the Chaldean goddess, the queen of heaven. The festival of Pasch held by Christians in post-apostolic times was a continuation of the Jewish feast, but was not instituted by Christ, nor was it connected with Lent. From this Pasch the Pagan festival of Easter was quite distinct and was introduced into the apostate Western religion, as part of the attempt to adapt Pagan festivals to Christianity.”4
PASSOVER: PASCHA, the Greek spelling of the Aramaic word for the Passover, from the Hebrew pasach, to pass over, to spare, a feast instituted by God in commemoration of the deliverance of Israel from Egypt, and anticipatory of the expiatory sacrifice of Christ. The word signifies (I) the Passover Feast, e.g., Matt. 26:2, John 2:13, 23; 6:4; 11:55; 12:1; 13:1; 18:39; 19:4; Acts 12:4; Heb. 11:28; (II) by metonymy, (a) the Paschal Supper, Matt. 26:18, 19; Mark 14:16; Luke 22:8, 13; (b) the Paschal lamb, e.g., Mark 14:12 (cp. Ex. 12:21); Luke 22:7; © Christ Himself, I Cor. 5:7.”5
The question then arises: Why the blatant change from their previously correct translation of the original manuscript? We have great difficulty with their explanation that they had a liberty to commodiously use a less fit word while translating, and absolutely refuse to change the Word of God to accommodate their offered rationale which is clearly outside the bounds of an error or difficult interpretation.
H, I'm not sure I understand this.
Why does the word “Easter” belong at acts 12:4?On that part of 1 John 5:7, the Johannine Comma, it has absolutely no right being in the KJV or any other Bible. It is a blatant attempt at tampering for the purpose of supporting the trinity belief.
“For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.”
Yet these words do not appear in any of the very early copies of the Bible. They were added by someone who was trying to support the Trinity teaching. Since it is clear that these words are not really part of God’s Word, corrections have been made and the words do not appear in newer Bibles.
Most all Bible translators believe in the trinity and this scripture for a certainty is one of the most direct trinity scriptures. Yet, even they cannot justify it being there. It was simply added.In the fourth century C.E., in a Latin treatise, an overzealous advocate of Trinitarianism evidently included the words “in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the holy spirit; and these three are one” as if these were a quotation from 1 John 5:7. Later that passage was put right into the text of a Latin Bible manuscript.
Regarding this Trinitarian passage, textual critic F. H. A. Scrivener wrote: “We need not hesitate to declare our conviction that the disputed words were not written by St. John: that they were originally brought into Latin copies in Africa from the margin, where they had been placed as a pious and orthodox gloss on ver. 8: that from the Latin they crept into two or three late Greek codices, and thence into the printed Greek text, a place to which they had no rightful claim.”—A Plain Introduction to the Criticism of the New Testament (Cambridge, 1883, third ed.), p. 654.
A footnote in The Jerusalem Bible, a Catholic translation, says that these words are “not in any of the early Greek MSS [manuscripts], or any of the early translations, or in the best MSS of the Vulg[ate] itself.”
A Textual Commentary on the Greek New Testament, by Bruce Metzger (1975, pp. 716-718), traces in detail the history of the spurious passage. It states that the passage is first found in a treatise entitled Liber Apologeticus, of the fourth century, and that it appears in Old Latin and Vulgate manuscripts of the Scriptures, beginning in the sixth century. Modern translations as a whole, both Catholic and Protestant, do not include them in the main body of the text, because of recognizing their spurious nature.—RS, NE, NAB.
This spurious verse was protected by the Vatican until 1927, in spite of the fact that even some Catholic scholars had raised doubts about its authenticity as early as the sixth century.
Not only were the words not in the Sinaiticus, but they could not be found in any Greek manuscript before the 16th century. The evidence indicates that a manuscript now found at Trinity College, Dublin, was purposely written about 1520 to insert that spurious verse! Basically, all modern versions have omitted this glaring tampering.
Because this verse comes from a period that is so much later than the time of the Bible writing and its nature is so clearly spurious, many modern translations do not even treat it as they do other omitted verses.
In his writings, Isaac Newton gave much attention to the doctrine of the Trinity. One of his most outstanding contributions to the Biblical scholarship of the time was his work An Historical Account of Two Notable Corruptions of Scripture, first published in 1754, twenty-seven years after his death. It reviewed all the textual evidence available from ancient sources on two Bible passages, at First John 5:7 and First Timothy 3:16.
In the King James Version Bible, First John 5:7 reads:
“For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.”
Using early Church writers, the Greek and Latin manuscripts and the testimony of the first versions of the Bible, Newton proved that the words “in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one,” in support of the Trinity doctrine, did not appear in the original inspired Greek Scriptures. He then traced the way in which the spurious reading crept into the Latin versions, first as a marginal note, and later into the text itself. He showed that it was first taken into a Greek text in 1515 by Cardinal Ximenes on the strength of a late Greek manuscript corrected from the Latin. Finally, Newton considered the sense and context of the verse, concluding, “Thus is the sense plain and natural, and the argument full and strong; but if you insert the testimony of ‘the Three in Heaven’ you interrupt and spoil it.”–An Historical Account of Two Notable Corruptions of Scripture, by Sir Isaac Newton, Edition of 1830, London, p. 60.
Here's why I mention Newton. Because he didn't publish these findings during his lifetime. Those who wrote against the trinity were still subject to persecution in England. So it goes.
As late as 1698 the Act for the Suppression of Blasphemy and Profaneness made it an offense to deny one of the persons of the Trinity to be God, punishable with loss of office, employment and profit on the first occasion, and imprisonment for a repetition. Newton’s friend William Whiston (translator of the works of Josephus) lost his professorship at Cambridge for this reason in 1711. In 1693 a pamphlet attacking the Trinity was burned by order of the House of Lords, and the next year its printer and author were prosecuted. In 1697 Thomas Aikenhead, an eighteen-year-old student charged with denying the Trinity, was hanged at Edinburgh, Scotland.But, the age of burning those who don't agree with “the church” are over.
So I'm going to say: It ain't in there. It was added. It doesn't belong. It never did.
david
Hi H.
Thank you david.H, if the KJV is perfect which version of the kjv is perfect?
Is it the original with the false verse?
Or the versions where it was removed?
Or the latest versions where it appears again?Hi H,
God does give individual answers to prayer and I do not doubt He did for you.
But I would ask you to be clear what you asked and what you were in fact told.
Did you fast and pray asking God which was the best version for you to use and receive an answer that it was the KJV?That is possible as it is generally a good version to use.
But can we enquire:
Did you also ask which was the best version for everyone to use?
Did you ask if there was only one good version?
Did you ask was there a perfect version?
Did you ask God what your mission in life was?
Did you ask if it was to tell others about this particular version being perfect for them?
Did you ask if you were to tell others all other versions were evil?And were you told that anyone who does not accept your understanding on this matter was carnal and deceived?
If not why do you continue to do what you do here on this matter?
All I can tell you is if you really want to know for sure, then fast and pray. If your heart is sincere, God will reveal to you his word. If you don't want to know, and want to continue as you are, then do so. What more can I say. Why is fasting not in the NIV? Do you not think it is important to the faith? Have any of you ever seen the comparisons of the bibles? There are some very drastic changes that definitely change interpretation of scripture, or doesn't that matter either? You want to attack the KJ, but how about defending your corrupt versions. Tell me what you have and let me start digging.
Hi H,
So God will always tell us what he has told you.?
Your God is too small if you can thus define Him.We do not attack the KJV as evil, as you do the other versions, but use it frequently….aware of it's limitations.
Sorry Nick, but my God is the God of all creation. He spoke all things into existance. I am sorry if you do not have enough faith in God to do this. I will pray for you. I struggle with the flesh. It is a battle that wars against our spirit. Fasting helps to bring the flesh into submission. That is why it was so damaging when the NIV came out and did not include it. So many do not fast today and it is very essential part of the faith.
heiscomingintheclouds – alias 'headisinthesand'. Regarding the Johannine Comma that is.
1 John 5:7
“For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.”You haven't given an adequate explanation as to how this corrupt addition made the perfect edition. I am waiting. Till then it is pointless to consider your proposal when it is obvious that a perfect translation cannot contain within it an added man-made verse. Particularly one that has been used to bolster one of the biggest deceptions of all time.
Would you fast and pray if a Catholic said to you that the Roman Catholic Church is the only church? Why wouldn't you? Your answer would probably be the same answer as mine. This is why it is pointles to play your game regarding fasting and praying over a particular version of the bible.
In any case I have already fasted and prayed over such matters and God has shown me time and time again, the fallacy of the argument you are making. Am I to now lack faith in his ability to teach me by now going through the process that you are outlining?
Perhaps we should all pray and fast regarding the issue that the world is flat, even if the facts say otherwise. In order to pray about this particular matter though, would it not seem wise to at least see some proof that the world was flat? Otherwise I would be wasting precious time would I not?
Quote (heiscomingintheclouds @ June 30 2006,20:14) Sorry Nick, but my God is the God of all creation. He spoke all things into existance. I am sorry if you do not have enough faith in God to do this. I will pray for you. I struggle with the flesh. It is a battle that wars against our spirit. Fasting helps to bring the flesh into submission. That is why it was so damaging when the NIV came out and did not include it. So many do not fast today and it is very essential part of the faith.
heiscomingintheclouds.You have your own creed by the look of it. i.e., your own set of rules and revelations outside of the true foundation. This makes you another denomination/division. Personally speaking, I do not want to join your non-denominational denomination/division and heed to your creed, mandate, and special revelation.
Thanks for asking, but no thanks. I don't want to aid in division beyond the foundation of true faith.
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