A coincidence or a creation?

[selah]

Georg,

In your two posts, you clearly laid out your scenario for your interpretation or understanding of the various passages in Revelation and what they mean to you based upon biblical verses and actual historical events.  You could very well be right, however, the question asked was:

“If we confine our selves to the Book of Revelation ONLY … using NO historical events  or dates etc..”

Can you point to a passage within Revelation and say here, in this specific verse, it tells us that the image, mark and number is associated with the 1st beast?  Or, can you point to a passage and say, here is proof positive that they apply to the 2nd beast?
I dont know of any expositor that has been able to confine his proof to a Revelation passage or passages, without using
his historical data to “prove” his theory or interpretation.

Preterists “prove” their claim that Nero was the first beast, and using Hebrew gematria, an obscure name of Nero summed at 666.
Being a “senior” you will recall that the prophecy “experts” told us that Hitler was the beast because of many reasons, and that his followers used their right hand to make the “mark” to  exclaim “heil Hitler”.  By using some complex system of gematria (A=101  B=102 etc.) they were able to “make” his name sum at 666 also.

I am not sure if Ed J believes that Islam is one of the beasts, but if he does, I am sure he could gather up dates of historical and/or current events and match them to scriptural passages to prove his scenario, just as you and I would do to prove our own theory.  Not sure, but I thought he may of said that the Koran was 666.

Here is the bottom line question:

There are two beasts in Revelation, a first and a second.
There is an image, a mark and a number … let us call them A B C

There are many possible combinations available.  The 1st beast could be associated with A  B and C
Or, the 2nd beast could be associated with A  B and C.

The 1st beast could be associated with A and B, but C  associated with the 2nd beast.
The 2nd beast could be associated with A and B, but C  associated with the 1st beast.  It is never ending.

To any and all.
Can anyone here point to a verse or verses in the Book of Revelation that confirms proof positive, of which beast the image, mark and number apply to?  As I had noted in another post, I had asked this question of a believer with 40 years experience in the ministry and another believer who is a leading professor of a seminary.

One said the 1st beast and the other the 2nd, but neither could point to their scriptural proof in Revelation.
“If” we could establish the truth to this question, it would likely eliminate many false theories of interpretation.

I may post my own scenario of a few subjects in Revelation,  but I am sure I will be like others, and resort to “events”
as my “proof”.

[karmarie]

Quote (mikeangel @ Mar. 04 2010,00:26)

I compare the bad things Elvis did to the beast in being #1- I hear all the time people refer him an “The King”. To me thats blasphemous. Music is the oldest media there is. There are flutes dating back way before history. After languages were established came lyrics and songs. The meanings to the songs reflect and whats popular reflect what the people want,feel, and believe. King David, whose throne was established forever through Jesus, was God inspired in his songs and lyrics(psalms). Inspiration is the launching board for all the arts, and they can be good or they can be bad. Although Elvis sung Gospel, he did not live out good values. I believe that was a distraction to what really happened. He gave the people what they wanted and his image was one of money and popularity. Even before he died the, the music style had turned to the worst part of humanity, a hypocritical, evil , godless sprit.' Imagine ' from John Lennon, was about peace. Good seeming, but it was about peace through no god “imaging theres no heaven,it's easy if you try, no hell below us, above us only sky”. It only got worse from there, but a common theme was sex, drugs, and rock and roll(God said”is there any rock but me?”) Right now, at NFL and NBA games, at timeout and media breaks, they sometimes play” hells bells “. You can notice it because it begins with a tolling of a large bell. Nobody cares to notice the lyrics, but they tell you satans taking you to hell and theres nothing you can do about it. “Won't take no prisoners, won't spare no lives, nobodys puttin up a fight, we got the power gonna take you to hell, were gonna get ya, satan get ya, hells bells” later”if youre into evil your a friend of mine”. Noone complains. Austrailia treats them like favored sons. Besides them look at Ozzy, Metallica, Guns and roses etc. Just google thier lyrics and tell me theyre not evil. You older people will be out of the picture and it will be paramount to any music. The people who have never been to church and heard a good inspired hymn will only have this in thier heads. Also look at any rock concert video, especially hard rock. They hold thier hands up with thier index finger and pinky fingers up, like horns, it's thier sign. Also many gangs use some form of this. I know not many people believe this but it's true. The 60's generation spawned “a whole new breed of men without souls” and they turned into the greedy me me mes that caused us to be in this incredible mess that the government will not be able fix. The roots of this , however, began before Elvis. Sitting in an airport with alot of time to kill, I started reading the passages in my passport at the top of the pages. I came to page 20 and 21. At the top, it states “For this is what America is all about. It is the uncrossed desert and the unclimbed ridge. It is the star that is not reached and the harvest sleeping in the unplowed ground. Is our world gone? We say “Farewell” Is a new world coming? We welcome it-and we will bend it to the hopes of man. -Lyndon B. Johnson”   Not hopes of God, hopes of man.

Hi Mike ,(sorry to interupt Selah and George!)

A good book I once read is called 'Warning: Psychiatry Can Be Hazardous To Your Mental Health by William Glasser

It puts it all into perspective, It talks about evolutionists and how they plan to evolve into something higher (OH-Kay!) and how they plan to dumb down us people like animals by using things like music,(just as you described) psychiatry, education, the media etc, its I think written from a Christian mans point of view though I may have got that wrong- it was a while ago, but- a really good read!

[Elizabeth]

selah

If I remember, we have established that beast means, kingdom; a kingdom has a king, a ruler. so, when we talk about the first beast, we mean Rome; when we talk about the second beast out of the earth, it is not Rome.
Actually, what your asking is really very simple when you pay attention what the scriptures say.
It is beast out of the earth, second beast, who exercises all the powers of the “FIRST” beast, v12.
It was the beast out of the earth, second beast, that insisted to be made an image of the beast that received the deadly wound, and was healed; the first beast received the deadly wound, v. 14.
The image can't be the first beast, because then it would not be an “image” OF the beast, v. 15.
The first beast always allowed the conquered nations to worship as they used to; the second beast forced all to worship as he commanded, or they would be killed, v. 15 + 16.
Nero was dead before the book of Revelation was written, he did not declare himself to be the VICAR of the son of God; the second beast did, he has the number on his crown.

I hope I got it right this time.

Georg

[selah]

Much closer this time Georg.  Clearly the image cannot be the first beast.  That is one thing established without using history or the Bible!

I think you would agree that your points are based upon Revelation passages “and” history, and that is ok as I can see where you are headed … all roads lead to Rome.

If you don't mind, I would question a few of your comments.
You said that Nero was dead before the book of Revelation was written and he did not declare himself to be the Vicar of the Son of God, whereas the 2nd beast (papacy) did.  You also noted that the pope had the number on his crown … I am sure you were referring to the infamous “Triple Tiara”.

Seventh Day Adventists tried very hard to establish the 666 factor on that crown, but when I researched this several years ago, there were no pictures or hard evidence that this ever existed.  There was one unnamed individual that claimed to have seen it, but even this could not be substantiated.

This is not an important point for me, as there are several other examples of 666 all connected with the papacy.
Lateinos = 666  He Latine Basileia = 666 (the Latin kingdom)  Italika Ekklesia (Italian Church) = 666
In ancient Greek the word Apostates = 666  Dux Cleri (captain of the clergy) = 666  Vicar of the Court = 666

In Hebrew, Romiith (Roman Kingdom) = 666 as does Romiti (the Roman Man) = 666.

As one commentator stated, this relationship of 666 in Greek, Latin, and Hebrew is only one relatively small, yet important indicator that the Papacy is the beast from the sea of Rev 13.  This association by itself proves little, as 666 can fit other people using the same methods.  All the other biblical characteristics of the Beast must be considered and met as well … then this 666 association becomes significant.

Georg, you are correct that Nero did not declare himself to be the Vicar of the Son of God.
But he was declared … Pontifex Maximus, High Priest.

Pontifex Maximus is an official title for each and every reigning pope, he is the High Priest Of Rome.
As I noted in an earlier post, he is also a “beast”, as one of his titles is the “Primate” of Rome.

“If” Nero was the first beast (as claimed by many) then the pope could be considered to be the “image” of the Emperor of Imperial Rome … not quite the same as your theory, but still within the realm of reason.

Regarding your statement that Nero was dead before the book of Revelation was written.
I will try to address that in my next post.

Thanks for responding to my questions.  You and I are not on the same page, but we are in the same book.

[karmarie]

Quote (Elizabeth @ Mar. 04 2010,13:15)

selah If I remember, we have established that beast means, kingdom; a kingdom has a king, a ruler. so, when we talk about the first beast, we mean Rome; when we talk about the second beast out of the earth, it is not Rome. Actually, what your asking is really very simple when you pay attention what the scriptures say. It is beast out of the earth, second beast, who exercises all the powers of the “FIRST” beast, v12. It was the beast out of the earth, second beast, that insisted to be made an image of the beast that received the deadly wound, and was healed; the first beast received the deadly wound, v. 14. The image can't be the first beast, because then it would not be an “image” OF the beast, v. 15. The first beast always allowed the conquered nations to worship as they used to; the second beast forced all to worship as he commanded, or they would be killed, v. 15 + 16. Nero was dead before the book of Revelation was written, he did not declare himself to be the VICAR of the son of God; the second beast did, he has the number on his crown. I hope I got it right this time. Georg

Hi,

Sounds like Isalm to me when you read it as you put it.!

But, in Islam they cant have Images and will worship nothing but God unseen so that discounts them really.

So, it conquers nations and all the world says “Who is like (the beast kingdom) and who can conquer it? That sounds like the most powerfull nation in the world today.

The Adventists believe
the first beast = the Papacy system  
the second beast = America
I cant remember what both involved though. I could look it up.

They also believe the mark of the beast is to not obey the Saterday Sabbath, and  that a universal “Sunday law” will be forced on the World, I honestly cant ever see THAT happening.

[mikeangel]

karmarie,
I will read that book. I think people highly underestimate the media. Also I want to tell you what a pleasure it is to fellowship with you. You don't tell someone they're wrong, you just seem to appriciate other peoples opinions. One day we will meet, God knows who you are. Love and peace to you, Me

[Elizabeth]

selah

You said this.
(((Georg, you are correct that Nero did not declare himself to be the Vicar of the Son of God.
But he was declared … Pontifex Maximus, High Priest.
Pontifex Maximus is an official title for each and every reigning pope, he is the High Priest Of Rome.)))

That is exactly the reason why the second beast had to wait until he was taken out of the way.

2Th 2:7   For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth (restrains) will let, (will restrain) until he be taken out of the way.  

It was the emperor that held the second beast back because no one dared to claim that title PONTIFEX MAXIMUS, as long as there was an emperor around. Justinian was the last emperor that ruled the east and the west; when he died in 565 AD, the restrainer was taken out of the way.

2Th 2:3   Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;  

This verse does not so easily identify the second beast because the falling away happened during his entire reign, 1260 years; it was in 1834 when the Vatican abolished torture. History claims that over 50 million lost their lives by the church, how many would you say fell away for fear of torture and death?

I don't know if this site is still on the Internet, I will try myself once I'm done here; it will give you more then just a picture of the tiara,

http://www.aloha.net/~mikesch/666.htm

Georg

Yes, it's still available

[mikeangel]

George'
 Let's look at the fourth kingdom in Daniel. Dan 2 v40-“There shall be a fourth kingdom, strong as iron; it shall break into pieces and subdue all these others, just as iron breaks into pieces and crushes evreythine else. The feet and toes you saw, partly of potters tile and partly of iron, mean that it shall be a divided kingdom, but yet have some of the hardness of iron. As you saw the irom mixed with clay tile, and the toes partly iron and partly tile, the kingdom shall be partly strong and partly fragile. The iron mixed with clay tile mean that they shall seal their alliances by intarmarriage, but they will not stay united ”  As I read it, the feet and toes describe the forth iron kingdom, a fifth is not mentioned. To me this is present in this racially divided country. Also if another country as a whole declares war on us, we can turn them into a parking lot at the push of a button.Godbless

[Elizabeth]

mike

The two legs of Iron represent Rome, as it was split into two, one capital and an emperor in the west, Rome; and a capital and an emperor in the east, Constantinople. After Justinian die in 565 AD, only the leg of the east survived.
Explain to me what it means, “in the days of these kings”, who are “these kings”?

Georg

[mikeangel]

Well, they started with Washington, and went up to Obama right now. We call tham presidents because of the break with England, and the “no titles of nobility” part of the constitution, but they are our kings never the less. “If it looks like a duck…..” Godbless.

[mikeangel]

Also it is still one kingdom, it doesn't mention a fifth.

[selah]

Good point Karmarie,

“Islam can't have images and will worship nothing but God unseen so that discounts them really.”

My memory is fading, did the SDA always state that America is the second beast or is that something that developed during the last 20 or 30 years?

[selah]

Yes Georg,

That Aloha site (SDA) has always been a good source for information about Romanism.

I have used it in the past and have attended several of their seminars.

Were you ever an SDA at one time?

[karmarie]

Quote (mikeangel @ Mar. 05 2010,00:08)

karmarie, I will read that book. I think people highly underestimate the media. Also I want to tell you what a pleasure it is to fellowship with you. You don't  tell someone they're wrong, you just seem to appriciate other peoples opinions. One day we will meet, God knows who you are.  Love and peace to you, Me

Hi Mike, thankyou for saying that. We will meet some day:)

[karmarie]

Quote (selah @ Mar. 05 2010,09:34)

Good point Karmarie, “Islam can't have images and will worship nothing but God unseen so that discounts them really.” My memory is fading, did the SDA always state that America is the second beast or is that something that developed during the last 20 or 30 years?

Hi Selah, I think its a more recent thought for Adventists.

[Ed J]

Quote (selah @ Mar. 04 2010,10:22)

Georg, “If we confine our selves to the Book of Revelation ONLY … using NO historical events  or dates etc..” Can you point to a passage within Revelation and say here, in this specific verse, it tells us that the image, mark and number is associated with the 1st beast?  Or, can you point to a passage and say, here is proof positive that they apply to the 2nd beast? I dont know of any expositor that has been able to confine his proof to a Revelation passage or passages, without using his historical data to “prove” his theory or interpretation. Here is the bottom line question: There are two beasts in Revelation, a first and a second. There is an image, a mark and a number … let us call them A B C There are many possible combinations available.  The 1st beast could be associated with A  B and C Or, the 2nd beast could be associated with A  B and C. The 1st beast could be associated with A and B, but C  associated with the 2nd beast. The 2nd beast could be associated with A and B, but C  associated with the 1st beast.  It is never ending. To any and all. Can anyone here point to a verse or verses in the Book of Revelation that confirms proof positive, of which beast the image, mark and number apply to?  As I had noted in another post, I had asked this question of a believer with 40 years experience in the ministry and another believer who is a leading professor of a seminary. One said the 1st beast and the other the 2nd, but neither could point to their scriptural proof in Revelation. “If” we could establish the truth to this question, it would likely eliminate many false theories of interpretation. I may post my own scenario of a few subjects in Revelation,  but I am sure I will be like others, and resort to “events” as my “proof”.

Hi Selah,

Using the Bible to define Biblical doctrine is much better that using 'brain bondo',
which can make almost anything line up that may have no connection whatsoever.

The three points you label A,B & C: 'mark'(A) 'name'(B) and 'number'( C).

Rev.13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had
the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

B. The Name can clearly be identified with Rev.13:1…

Rev.13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea,
having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
I have identified what the 'name of blasphemy' is, many times, but Georg has trouble accepting it. (Nahum 1:14)

Identifying which beast the 'image' is, will help both: A. and C. fall into place as well.

Rev.13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast,
that the image of the beast should both speak, and (Rev.13:11) cause that as many
as would not worship the image of the (Rev.13:1) beast should be killed.

The second(Rev.13:11) beast: gives life to the image of the beast,
therefore: 'the image' must be that of the first beast as well; do you agree?

These things are NOT hard to nail down “IF” you know what they refer to.

Do you agree that John the revalator and 1John were both the same John?
If you do we can go farther with agreement, if not you (like Georg) may not accept my input either?

God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[Elizabeth]

Quote (selah @ Mar. 05 2010,07:39)

Yes Georg, That Aloha site (SDA) has always been a good source for information about Romanism. I have used it in the past and have attended several of their seminars. Were you ever an SDA at one time?

selah

No, I don't even know what SDA stands for.

Georg

[Elizabeth]

Ed

Why don't you explain to us what all the decoration on the beast in Rev. 13:1 stands for; you know, the different parts of the other animals; the seven heads; the ten horns; the ten crowns; the deadly wound; which head received the deadly wound; when was the wound inflicted; how was the wound healed; when was the wound healed?
I only put on one ? on, so you wouldn't get scared. You can even use historical facts, if it would help.

Georg

[terraricca]

georg

you know, edj ,is right about the image of the first beast what the second beast uses to make men to worship……

which head was wounded i think it is the Greek empire,and the image of it is democracy
what the second beast is so eager to sell to the world ,in this case could you finger point the second beast ?

[Elizabeth]

terraricca

If you had read my posts to selah, you would not have to ask me that.
I just want to see Ed's explanation, if he has one; knowing him , he will disguise it with numbers.

Georg

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