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Quote (selah @ Feb. 28 2010,17:19) I think I will be like Georg.
I will wait till the mud settles!In the meantime, I would ask anyone (other than Ed or Georg) the following:
In Rev 13, is the image, mark and number more closely associated with the first beast or the second beast?
If you can determine that, I would appreciate knowing the specific Revelation passage or passages that answer that for you. Please confine your answer to the Book of Revelation.
I have asked two individuals that question, one having 40 years in the ministry, and the other, the head professor of a Protestant seminary … with opposing answers, but no explanation of how they arrived at their conclusion.
Thank you.
Hi Salah,The mark is identified
Rev.14:8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, (Rev.17:5)
that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.
And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image,
and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God,
which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire(Heb.12:29)
and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: (Luke 16:24)The Mark is his name: 'i am'
Rev.13:16-17 And he(The false prophet beast: Rev.13:11) causeth all, both small and great,
rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark (Mark 13:6) in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the (blasphemous)name of the
(antichrist)beast, or the number of his name. The blasphemous name in Rev.13:1 is 'i am'.This blasphemous name: i am'=23 is the FAKE=23 god of religion as mentioned
by the Apostle Paul in 2Thess.2:3-4; who promotes a (false) Flesh return of Jesus!2Thess.2:3-4 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come,
except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin (i am) be revealed, the son of perdition;
Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is “called God”=63(YHVH=63),
or that is worshipped; so that he as (i am)God sitteth in the temple of God,
showing himself that he is God. This is the Antichrist(1John 2:22) beast of Rev.13:1.
'i am'(the false god of religion) has infiltrated into many versions of “The Bible”=63!
'i am' cannot be translated into Hebrew! Hebrew has no such word structure!Deut:32:17: They sacrificed unto devils, not to God; to gods whom they knew not,
to new gods (an 'i am' god) that came newly up(Rev.13:1), whom your fathers feared not.
Antichrist(222) & False Prophet(666) make a FALSE IMAGE of a flesh king return which they call: 'i am' god?The 'False Prophet'(666) causes all to worship this FALSE image of their flesh king [Ιησους=888] Ē-Ā-Soos.
Jesus REAL Name is [391=יהשוע] YÄ-shü-ă; and He Returned on “Pentecost”! The Numbers [666+222=888]
Go back and reread my last two Posts on this thread for greater clarity on this complex issue of a 'false image'.God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgHi Selah,
Quote In the meantime, I would ask anyone (other than Ed or Georg) the following: In Rev 13, is the image, mark and number more closely associated with the first beast or the second beast?
If you can determine that, I would appreciate knowing the specific Revelation passage or passages that answer that for you. Please confine your answer to the Book of Revelation.
The Image mark and number are assosiated with the second beast;
Revelation
11And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.12And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
13And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
15And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
16And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
17And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
18Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.
Quote (Ed J @ Feb. 28 2010,21:43) The mark is identified Rev.14:8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, (Rev.17:5)
that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.
And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image,
and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God,
which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire(Heb.12:29)
and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: (Luke 16:24)
Ed,That would mean Babylon and the second beast are the same thing- Id never seen that before.
Quote (karmarie @ Feb. 28 2010,19:54) Quote (Ed J @ Feb. 28 2010,21:43) The mark is identified Rev.14:8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, (Rev.17:5)
that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.
And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image,
and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God,
which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire(Heb.12:29)
and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: (Luke 16:24)
Ed,That would mean Babylon and the second beast are the same thing- Id never seen that before.
Hi Karmarie,Babylon the great is the systems of confusion;
the systems of religion and traditions of men.
Rev. 13:1 is the focal point of these systems.
Name of blasphemy mentioned in Rev.13:1 is 'i am'!74 + 74 +74 =148
Lucifer=74 known as 'great i am'=74
was separated from the Godhead in
Jesus=74 after death. (Isaiah 14:9)All the fullness of the Godhead dwelled in [Jesus] bodily. (Col.2:9) Similarly,
we are also a part of the body of Christ. (1Cor. 12:27) So we may then conclude
that all of us, plus the fullness of the Godhead, are all part of the whole body of Christ.
Did not GOD also create {Lucifer} and how is Lucifer connected to the body of Christ?
Only in death was Lucifer connected to the body of Christ. The key is found in Isaiah 14:19:Isaiah 14:19: thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch,
and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword.Jesus is the only person (so far) whose body was cast out of the grave.
His body was also thrust through with a spear. Jesus is furthermore called
the branch in Zechariah 3:8. But the significant difference here is these things
happened to Jesus’ body after He was (a corpse) dead; as “the body of sin”.Luke 2:34-35 And Simeon blessed them, and said unto Mary his mother, Behold, this child
is set for the fall and rising again of many in Israel; and for a sign which shall be spoken against;
(Yea, a sword shall pierce through thy own soul also,) that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.God's Name [יהוה] translates DIRECTLY into English as “YHVH”=63
The “Divine”=63 “Deity”=63 of “The Bible”=63 is “YHVH”=63 !
Hosea 6:3 Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the LORD: his going forth
is prepared as the morning; and he shall come unto us as the rain, as
[“The Latter Rain“=151 and “former rain“=117] unto the earth.THE “THREE” MAIN “FEASTS OF GOD” are Called…
1) “The Passover”=148 “The Passover”: made possible “Pentecost”=117
“Messiah: Jesus”=148 “JESUS CHRIST“=151 was the “Testator”=151!2) “Pentecost”=117 Started the “God Spirit”=117(Holy Spirit), which
“Former Rain”=117 is “GOD THE FATHER”=117 reigning in Mankind!3) “Feast of Booths”=151 begins The “HOLY SPIRIT”=151(The LORD JEHOVAH=151)
“The Latter Rain”=151 “Tabernacles Feast”=151; the culmination of the “THREE”!“YHVH is GOD”=117
PSALM 117 “is” [The Bible's Center], the “[smallest chapter]” of the [LARGEST BOOK]!Witnessing to the world in behalf of…
117=יהוה האלהים(JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm! (Psalm 45:17)
Ed J (AKJV Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Ed J @ Feb. 28 2010,22:23) Babylon the great is the systems of confusion;
the systems of religion and traditions of men.
Rev. 13:1 is the focal point of these systems.
Name of blasphemy mentioned in Rev.13:1 is 'i am'!
we are also a part of the body of Christ. (1Cor. 12:27) So we may then conclude
that all of us, plus the fullness of the Godhead, are all part of the whole body of Christ.Did not GOD also create {Lucifer} and how is Lucifer connected to the body of Christ?
Only in death was Lucifer connected to the body of Christ. The key is found in Isaiah 14:19:Isaiah 14:19: thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch,
and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword.Jesus is the only person (so far) whose body was cast out of the grave.
thrust through with a spear
His body was also
EdRev. 13:1 is I am? I know you say that's Satan's name, are you then saying that Satan was speaking to Moses from the burning busch?
What do all those symbols mean on that beast? you know, Leopard, Bear, Lion, seven heads, ten horns, ten crowns; are they just for decoration?To be a part of the body/church of Christ, you would have to be in the first resurrection. Not every believer will be a part of that body.
Lucifer, although created a perfect angel, was never connected to the “body of Christ”. Read back a few scriptures and see who is being talked about in Is. 14, besides Lucifer.
What do you mean by, Jesus body was “cast out” of the grave?
Boy, would I like to know where you get your ideas about the numbers, and now you're starting to paint too; oh well, I guess there are all kinds of artists.
Georg
Hi Karmarie … thanks for getting back on topic.
You said … “The image mark and number are associated with the second beast.”
Your proof texts were Rev 13:11-18.
Everyone of us has those same verses to read (including respected scholars and theologians) and yet half of Christianity claims it is the first beast … including the seminary professor I mentioned.
The question may be more difficult than first appears.
I was hoping there would be scriptural proof POSITIVE but I think speculation and presupposition may be clouding the issue.Thanks Georg for your direct answer to my direct question. I appreciate that type of discussion.
You stated that Islam is not one of the two beasts of Revelation. At this time, Ed J has not directly
responded, but hopefully you and I can continue the discussion.If I may continue slowly, to avoid confusion and to be clear about your position (which may coincide with my own)
Do you believe Roman Catholicism and its papal system is one of the beasts of Revelation, and if so, do you think it
(Romanism) fits best with the first or second beast?Personally, I feel it dovetails best with the second beast/false prophet.
Not proof positive, but the word “vatic” or Vatican means … prophet or prophecy.Quote (Elizabeth @ Mar. 01 2010,01:15) Ed 1) Rev. 13:1 is I am? I know you say that's Satan's name, are you then saying that Satan was speaking to Moses from the burning busch?
2) What do all those symbols mean on that beast? you know, Leopard, Bear, Lion, seven heads, ten horns, ten crowns; are they just for decoration?
3) To be a part of the body/church of Christ, you would have to be in the first resurrection.
Lucifer, although created a perfect angel, was never connected to the “body of Christ”. Read back a few scriptures and see who is being talked about in Is. 14, besides Lucifer.4) What do you mean by, Jesus body was “cast out” of the grave?
5) Boy, would I like to know where you get your ideas about the numbers,
6) and now you're starting to paint too; oh well, I guess there are all kinds of artists.
Georg
Hi Georg,1) Click Here –> Third Post down (Nahum 1:14)
2) Daniel 7:3-8 sounds like a pretty good match; don't you think?
Matching the Luciferian connections of Rev.6:2-8 and Zech.6:2-8 Second Post from bottom <– Click Here3) Prior to the Resurrection, Mary's lineage goes back to Adam.
4) It's a matter of how the resurrection is viewed.
5) From “The Bible”=63; numbers don't teach, numbers only confirm!
The “HolySpirit” is my teacher; who is your teacher?6) Color=63 helps people to see YHVH=63 better!
Like Gematria(The God Numbers=151) and Geometry(Block Geometry=151)
helps people to better understand “The LORD JEHOVAH”=151(YHVH) as well.Ed J
selah
Your question;
((Do you believe Roman Catholicism and its papal system is one of the beasts of Revelation, and if so, do you think it (Romanism) fits best with the first or second beast?))
Second beast, the one out of the earth.
Georg
Ps, you want be able to prevent others from coming in and changing the subject, happens all the time.
Ed
((4) It's a matter of how the resurrection is viewed.))
Just how do you view the resurrection?
Georg
Quote (selah @ Mar. 01 2010,11:57) At this time, Ed J has not directly
respondedQuote (selah @ Feb. 28 2010,12:29) Yes Georg, I guess the only thing I got right in that post ( ! ) was that a meaning for the word “primate” (animal or beast) is also a title for the Roman pope … The Primate Of Rome.
Ed J,
Your answer to my question was a little deep for me. I will strive to ask one (simple) question at a time, and so that I can comprehend, I would appreciate one (simple) answer at a time.
Do you believe that (physical) Islam is one of the two beasts of Revelation?
Thank you.
Hi Selah,
Ed has directly responded, but perhaps you didn't like his answer?
The 'antichrist' cannot be limited to either Islam or RCC!If the 'antichrist'(Rev.13:1) were only physical, it could SIMPLY be killed;
but it is a spiritual beast, and only the “HolySpirit” can consume(destroy) it.2Thess.2:8 And then shall that Wicked (i am) be revealed, whom [The LORD JEHOVAH=151] shall consume with
the [HolySpirit=151] of his mouth (Rev.19:15), and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: (Is.30:25-26)God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Elizabeth @ Mar. 01 2010,12:56) selah Your question;
1) ((Do you believe Roman Catholicism and its papal system is one of the beasts of Revelation, and if so, do you think it (Romanism) fits best with the first or second beast?))
Second beast, the one out of the earth.
Georg
2) Ps, you want be able to prevent others from coming in and changing the subject, happens all the time.
Hi Georg,1) I answered this question in my previous Post.
2) It was Selah's desire to change the subject to that of Rev.
Ed J
Quote (Ed J @ Mar. 01 2010,13:18) Quote (Elizabeth @ Mar. 01 2010,12:56) selah Your question;
1) ((Do you believe Roman Catholicism and its papal system is one of the beasts of Revelation, and if so, do you think it (Romanism) fits best with the first or second beast?))
Second beast, the one out of the earth.
Georg
2) Ps, you want be able to prevent others from coming in and changing the subject, happens all the time.
Hi Georg,1) I answered this question in my previous Post.
2) It was Selah's desire to change the subject to that of Rev.
Ed J
EdInstead of avoiding the question with nonsense, why don't you just tell me? maybe I'm to dumb to understand what you're saying; so keep it simple.
Georg
Quote (Elizabeth @ Mar. 01 2010,13:02) Ed ((4) It's a matter of how the resurrection is viewed.))
Just how do you view the resurrection?
Georg
Hi Georg,(Isaiah 14:19 / Nahum 1:14)
Lucifer=74 (great 'i am'=74) was extracted from Jesus=74 during “The Passover”=148 [74+74+74=148]
“The Trinity”=148: is involved in the extraction of Lucifer=74('great i am'=74) from “Bible Godhead”=74!THE “THREE” MAIN “FEASTS OF GOD” are Called…
1) “The Passover”=148 “The Passover”: made possible “Pentecost”=117
“Messiah: Jesus”=148 “JESUS CHRIST“=151 was the “Testator”=151!2) “Pentecost”=117 Started the “God Spirit”=117(Holy Spirit), which
“Former Rain”=117 is “GOD THE FATHER”=117 reigning in Mankind!3) “Feast of Booths”=151 begins The “HOLY SPIRIT”=151(God The Father)
“The Latter Rain”=151 “Tabernacles Feast”=151; the culmination of the “THREE”!
I document how YHVH is tied using “Gematria”=74 to “Jesus”=74 crucifixion.
First understand Gal. 1:1 says: GOD the Father raised Jesus from the dead.The numbers [63+54=117] help to conclusively prove YHVH is GOD=117.
“YHVH”=63 as the “Spirit of God”=117 indwells in mankind starting
after a 54–day period which began at the crucifixion and ended at
Pentecost=117.On day four, Jesus is living again, GOD the Father=117 raised Him back to life (Gal.1:1).
Pentecost in Greek means fifty; which started fifty days after the resurrection.
Pentecost brings a close to the fifty-four day period that began at Jesus’ death.
Pentecost=117 therefore began 54 days after the crucifixion.YHVH=63 plus the 54 days it took prior to Pentecost=117 starting,
can be mathematically stated as (63+54=117). This formula
lends strong support to the claim of English Gematria in general
and yet stronger evidence to the claim that YHVH is GOD=117.“YHVH is GOD”=117
PSALM 117 “is” [The Bible's Center], the “[smallest chapter]” of the [LARGEST BOOK]!Witnessing to the world in behalf of… (Psalm 45:17)
117=יהוה האלהים(JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (AKJV Joshua 22:34 / Isaiah 60:13-15)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Elizabeth @ Mar. 01 2010,14:11) Quote (Ed J @ Mar. 01 2010,13:18) Quote (Elizabeth @ Mar. 01 2010,12:56) selah Your question;
1) ((Do you believe Roman Catholicism and its papal system is one of the beasts of Revelation, and if so, do you think it (Romanism) fits best with the first or second beast?))
Second beast, the one out of the earth.
Georg
2) Ps, you want be able to prevent others from coming in and changing the subject, happens all the time.
Hi Georg,1) I answered this question in my previous Post.
2) It was Selah's desire to change the subject to that of Rev.
Ed J
EdInstead of avoiding the question with nonsense, why don't you just tell me? maybe I'm to dumb to understand what you're saying; so keep it simple.
Georg
Hi Georg,I re-Posted it for you; OK?
The 'antichrist' cannot be limited to either Islam or RCC!Ed J
Ed
I told you, if it's not the colors that make you go blind, it's the fumes that make you go nuts.
All those color really impress you, don't they?
It's a clever way to hide your ignorance.Georg
Hello Ed J,
It is not that I didn't “like” your answer, it was because I could not and do not understand it. Georg understood what was being asked, and got right to the point … I clearly understood his answer.
Perhaps Georg understands the answers you give and it is only me??
You stated that you did respond to the question “Do you believe that (physical) Islam is one of the two beasts of Revelation.?” As I had noted earlier, I did not understand your answer.
I have discussed the Book of Revelation with more than a few believers, over more than a few years, and sorry to say, but you are alone in how you respond to questions.
Your most recent response to that question was: “The 'antichrist' cannot be limited to either Islam or RCC!”
Ed … if you wish to continue to use the term 'antichrist' where the subject matter is about the beasts of Revelation, I will not be responding … your choice.
You also said that it was Selah's desire to change the subject to that of Revelation.
The original subject was rooted in Revelation??
Is it our object to avoid confusion?And yes Georg, I spent a few years on a few discussion boards and except for a limited few, they change constantly … but I tried.
Thanks Georg for your answer that you believe Romanism is one of the beasts, and that it is the second beast … we agree.
That being clear, I would like to move on slowly and carefully.
As you had offered earlier if asked, I would now like your thought as to whether the image, mark and number of the beast is more closely associated with the first or second beast?
I am not sure that scripture is ABSOLUTELY clear on this, as there are those conflicting views, but I would still be interested in knowing what leads you to your conclusion.I believe it is the second beast, but I am biased because my scenario is based upon the evidence that Romanism is the False Prophet (or 2nd beast).
How about you … could it be that we agree on something else?
Quote (Elizabeth @ Mar. 01 2010,15:40) Ed I told you, if it's not the colors that make you go blind, it's the fumes that make you go nuts.
All those color really impress you, don't they?
It's a clever way to hide your ignorance.Georg
Hi Georg,Is there something I said that you don't agree with?
Ed J
Hi all,
What interests me the most out of the book of revelation is the fact that the whole world is decieved;
When you are being decieved, you dont know you are being decieved.When I did a keyword search on the word deceived these 2 book verses matched, I dont know if it means anything?
Jeremiah 49:16
Your fierceness has deceived you, The pride of your heart, O you who dwell in the clefts of the rock, Who hold the height of the hill!
Though you make your nest as high as the eagle, I will bring you down from there,” says the LORD.Obadiah 1:3
The pride of your heart has deceived you, You who dwell in the clefts of the rock, Whose habitation is high; You who say in your heart, ‘Who will bring me down to the ground?’==============
In the words of Jesus we have:
-And Jesus answered and said to them: “Take heed that no one deceives you. (Matthew 24:4)
-For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many. (Matthew 24:5)
– For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)
==============
Then in revelations;
So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world;
he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. (Revelation 12:9)And he deceives those who dwell on the earth by those signs which he was granted to do in the sight of the beast,
telling those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the beast who was wounded by the sword and lived. (Revelation 13:14)The light of a lamp shall not shine in you anymore, and the voice of bridegroom and bride shall not be heard in you anymore.
For your merchants were the great men of the earth, for by your sorcery all the nations were deceived. (Revelation 18:23)Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence,
by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image.
These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. (Revelation 19:20)and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him,
so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished.
But after these things he must be released for a little while. (Revelation 20:3)and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog,
to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. (Revelation 20:8)The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are.
And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. (Revelation 20:10)===============
So- whatever it means, most are being decieved without realising it. Thats a key point I think.
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