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karmarie
Very good, I wonder how many others will agree with that?
What is harder to understand? give me an example.Georg
Definitely agreed Karmarie and Georg … beast can mean kingdom.
For Rome watchers, I found the specific Greek form used for “beast” in Rev 11:7 describing “the beast out of the sea” to be prophetically telling.
In this particular passage, beast means … to amass, to lay or heap up treasure.
Those who have read “The Vatican Billions” by Avro Manhattan will see the correlation.
One meaning of the word “primate” describes a beast or animal.
One of the official titles of this so-called “Holy Father” of Romanism is … The PRIMATE of RomeJust another coincidence? Or, did The Word plan this word?
Quote (Elizabeth @ Feb. 27 2010,02:11) karmarie Very good, I wonder how many others will agree with that?
What is harder to understand? give me an example.Georg
Hi George.(Rushing through and multi tasking at the mo so I cant read up on it in the Bible at the mo)
Where it got confusing if I recall is when it seemed to become 2 individuals in the book of Rev. (the 1st and 2nd beast) then it mentions further on- Satan and the False Prophet. But I can see also how if beast means kingdom, it could be understood differently
Quote (selah @ Feb. 27 2010,09:23) Definitely agreed Karmarie and Georg … beast can mean kingdom. For Rome watchers, I found the specific Greek form used for “beast” in Rev 11:7 describing “the beast out of the sea” to be prophetically telling.
In this particular passage, beast means … to amass, to lay or heap up treasure.
Those who have read “The Vatican Billions” by Avro Manhattan will see the correlation.
One meaning of the word “primate” describes a beast or animal.
One of the official titles of this so-called “Holy Father” of Romanism is … The PRIMATE of RomeJust another coincidence? Or, did The Word plan this word?
And I think sea means a multitude of people too.Quote (karmarie @ Feb. 27 2010,10:09) Quote (Elizabeth @ Feb. 27 2010,02:11) karmarie Very good, I wonder how many others will agree with that?
What is harder to understand? give me an example.Georg
Hi George.(Rushing through and multi tasking at the mo so I cant read up on it in the Bible at the mo)
Where it got confusing if I recall is when it seemed to become 2 individuals in the book of Rev. (the 1st and 2nd beast) then it mentions further on- Satan and the False Prophet. But I can see also how if beast means kingdom, it could be understood differently
karmarieI will wait till you get more specific, I don't want to second guess you.
Correct on your second post.Georg
Ed j,
Am I correct, that you believe Islam is the Beast of Revelation rather than Romanism?
If so, I pointed out in my recent post of Feb 27 that in Rev 11:7 the specific Greek word used to describe this “beast out of the sea” (Strongs #2343) is to “amass or to heap up treasure”. If this is so (and I believe it is) do you believe that “the beast out of the sea” is Islam?
Georg,
Does this unusual point about the meaning of beast in Rev 11:7 affect your interpretation in a negative or positive light … or neither?
Quote (selah @ Feb. 27 2010,16:57) Ed j, Am I correct, that you believe Islam is the Beast of Revelation rather than Romanism?
If so, I pointed out in my recent post of Feb 27 that in Rev 11:7 the specific Greek word used to describe this “beast out of the sea” (Strongs #2343) is to “amass or to heap up treasure”. If this is so (and I believe it is) do you believe that “the beast out of the sea” is Islam?
Georg,
Does this unusual point about the meaning of beast in Rev 11:7 affect your interpretation in a negative or positive light … or neither?
Hi SalaH,You have two different things (physical and spiritual) depicted in your Post.
1) Islam (physical) matches the description of 'antichrist' of 1John 2:22.
Islam denies The Father(HolySpirit): the only unforgivable sin, (Luke 12:10/ Matt.12:32)
and also denies the Son(Jesus: “The Son of God) of “HolySpirit”. (Matt.1:18 / Matt.1:20 / Luke 1:35)2) The Beast of Rev.11:7 (spiritual) refers to the king of Rev.9:11; this is undoubtedly Lucifer/satan himself.
3) The beast of Rev.13:1 is (spiritual) a 'FAKE'=23 Religions god; and the name of blasphemy is 'i am'=23. (Mark 2:26)
This beast of Rev.13:1 is a physical representation of Rev.12:3 and is expounded upon in Rev.17.
Rev.17:3 shows a whore sitting on the Rev.12:3 dragon and Rev.17:5 describes this whore.
Mystery Babylon (13:1) is 'confusion' and it is a 'spiritual' beast, not a physical one.
Religious confusion is widespread and cannot be isolated to one group!Quote (Elizabeth @ Feb. 27 2010,17:19) Quote (karmarie @ Feb. 27 2010,10:09) Quote (Elizabeth @ Feb. 27 2010,02:11) karmarie Very good, I wonder how many others will agree with that?
What is harder to understand? give me an example.Georg
Hi George.(Rushing through and multi tasking at the mo so I cant read up on it in the Bible at the mo)
Where it got confusing if I recall is when it seemed to become 2 individuals in the book of Rev. (the 1st and 2nd beast) then it mentions further on- Satan and the False Prophet. But I can see also how if beast means kingdom, it could be understood differently
karmarieI will wait till you get more specific, I don't want to second guess you.
Correct on your second post.Georg
Hi, I still havent had a chance to look- I will though. I think I was getting mixed up with the Antichrist, but obviously the 2 beasts are also 2 kingdoms. Its been a while since I studied it so I will just read along here untill I may have something to add:)Quote (Ed J @ Feb. 27 2010,21:15) 2) The Beast of Rev.11:7 (spiritual) refers to the king of Rev.9:11; this is undoubtedly Lucifer/satan himself.
The JWs believe Abaddon could (actually) be Jesus himself, most of Christianity are undecided whom this Angel is, weather good or bad. It is used to punish those without Gods mark or seal, and speaks of the nations who practice; Idolatry, magic, theiving, murders etc as the ones being punished.Theres no definate proof this has anything to do with the beasts (Kingdoms) further on.
Im out of time- but will explain more later.
Quote (selah @ Feb. 27 2010,16:57) Ed j, Am I correct, that you believe Islam is the Beast of Revelation rather than Romanism?
If so, I pointed out in my recent post of Feb 27 that in Rev 11:7 the specific Greek word used to describe this “beast out of the sea” (Strongs #2343) is to “amass or to heap up treasure”. If this is so (and I believe it is) do you believe that “the beast out of the sea” is Islam?
Georg,
Does this unusual point about the meaning of beast in Rev 11:7 affect your interpretation in a negative or positive light … or neither?
selahI am a bit confused, this is Rev. 11:7.
Rev 11:7 ¶ And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
I believe you mean Rev. 13:7
Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
But to be sure, I will wait for you to confirm before I reply.
Georg
Yes Georg,
My error. I should have noted Rev 13:11. And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
Not only did I make that mistake, but I quoted the wrong Strong's number (2343) for this beast.
It should have been 2342 … which means dangerous animal, venemous wild beast.This is the same Greek word used in Acts 28:4 for the venemous snake that bit Paul, but when he didn't die, they said that he was a god. Acts 28:6.
I guess the only thing I got right in that post ( ! ) was that a meaning for the word “primate” (animal or beast) is also a title for the Roman pope … The Primate Of Rome.
Ed J,
Your answer to my question was a little deep for me. I will strive to ask one (simple) question at a time, and so that I can comprehend, I would appreciate one (simple) answer at a time.
Do you believe that (physical) Islam is one of the two beasts of Revelation?
In these discussions, regarding the BOOK OF REVELATION, I would appreciate others not using the term “antichrist”, as Revelation does NOT use it either, but rather first beast, second beast and/or false prophet.
Thank you.
selah
Would it be alright if I refer to him as “the Wicked”?
2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
Rev 13:11 ¶ And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
We first have to establish, what is a beast?
Dan 7:17 These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth.
This is in reference to the four beasts Daniel described in earlier verses, 4-7. They represent the four empires, Babylon; Medo-Persia; Greek; and Rome. In other words, a beast is a kingdom, or government.
So, when it says, “I beheld another beast”, John is referring to another kind of government/ruler.
“Coming up out of the earth”; earth is a metaphor for “all people”, meaning, this “beast/ruler” was not an existing government/ruler. This is in fact referring to the “Wicked” who over time grew stronger, and more influential until in time he “became” a government/ruler.
“He had two horns like a Lamb”; who in the Bible is referred to as the Lamb? Jesus Christ. This “Wicked” tried to appear as Christ, he even calls himself the “Vicar” of Christ, in other words, he is the impostor.
“And he spoke as the dragon”; we know that the dragon is Satan the Devil.Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
What he spoke, meaning his doctrines, he is preaching a false gospel.
You ask Ed.
(Do you believe that (physical) Islam is one of the two beasts of Revelation?)
My answer, no.Georg
Georg,
For me personally, I find it much easier to follow if someone is specific about the particular subject under discussion. One question, one answer.
Your reasoning could be perfectly correct, but it comes as a “package”. Each one being somewhat contingent upon ones understanding of the others.If our discussion was centered upon the Book of Revelation, and I asked the question:
“Is the image, mark and number of the beast more closely associated with the first beast or the second beast?”
If someone gave his answer as … it is more closely associated with “the little horn”, it would not be clear to me.
If his answer was … it is more closely associated with “the man of sin” or “the wicked”, again it would not be clear to me what he meant.A different example:
If we were discussing 2 Thess 2:4 … Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
If someone said … that is the pope … then I would understand exactly where he is coming from.
But, if his answer was … that is the beast of Daniel, or that is the second beast, or that is the little horn, then I would have to bring all these to mind and try to determine just what is he telling me?As I noted in an earlier post, that is why I scratch my head when someone says … “that is the antichrist.”
It is so all encompassing, he probably knows what specific passage he is thinking about when he states that, but does the other person?I wish I could explain myself better … this may all be as clear as mud … but I tried.
Quote (selah @ Feb. 28 2010,12:29) Yes Georg, My error. I should have noted Rev 13:11. And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
Not only did I make that mistake, but I quoted the wrong Strong's number (2343) for this beast.
It should have been 2342 … which means dangerous animal, venemous wild beast.This is the same Greek word used in Acts 28:4 for the venemous snake that bit Paul, but when he didn't die, they said that he was a god. Acts 28:6.
I guess the only thing I got right in that post ( ! ) was that a meaning for the word “primate” (animal or beast) is also a title for the Roman pope … The Primate Of Rome.
Ed J,
Your answer to my question was a little deep for me. I will strive to ask one (simple) question at a time, and so that I can comprehend, I would appreciate one (simple) answer at a time.
Do you believe that (physical) Islam is one of the two beasts of Revelation?
In these discussions, regarding the BOOK OF REVELATION, I would appreciate others not using the term “antichrist”, as Revelation does NOT use it either, but rather first beast, second beast and/or false prophet.
Thank you.
Hi Selah,Identifying the problem
Your question is a bit premature to answer. First we must Identify the problem.
Hopefully what you, me and Georg are talking about will all come together.The issue here is the same provocative issue replicated in every instance related to it.
To avoid confusion I split my response into two parts. The first: identifying the problem.
The second Post: Identification of the (spiritual) players who play into this problem.
Then we will be in a better position to discuss how this plays into our physical reality.
BackgroundIt all revolves around Jesus. This issue is viewed as a FAKE Physical “Second Coming“.
Jesus REAL “Second Coming” was SPIRITUAL and already occurred at “Pentecost“! (Matt.16:28 / Luke 9:27)A 'fake' physical return is 'antichrist'; and ALL the systems of religion are promoting this fallacy. (1 John 4:3-4)
This is the REAL issue here and there can 'only' remain confusion as long as this fallacy persists!
Unless we can have consensus on this ONE issue alone; THERE CAN BE NO CONSENSUS!!!!
All your efforts then become a BIG waste of time; think about this provocative “Bible Truth”!CENTER VERSE IN THE ENTIRE BIBLE: Illuminates the Problem…
Psalm 118:8 It is better to trust in the LORD(YHVH) than to put confidence in man.
Jer.17:5 Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man,
and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD.This fallacy (of making Jesus a 'flesh King') begins by ignoring these Scriptures…
Psalm 29:10 The LORD sitteth upon the flood; yea, the LORD(YHVH) sitteth King for ever.
Psalm 10:16 The LORD(YHVH) is King for ever and ever: the heathen are perished out of his land.
GOD The Father is Our King(FOREVER) and He will NOT be replaced EVER! (I Samuel 8:5-8)Heb.13:8: Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
John 6:15: When Jesus therefore perceived that they would come and take him by force,
to make him a king, he departed again into a mountain himself alone.Bible Truth
The Bible is very clear on this issue of Son-ship to God…
Jesus' Father(HolySpirit) is GOD and Jesus is the “Son of God. (Matt.1:18 / Matt.1:20 / Luke 1:135)Furthermore: We are ALL children of the most high(ALL Son's of God: in our flesh). (Psalm 82:6)
The AKJV Bible uses LORD of Hosts: YHVH(LORD) and…His Hosts: Jesus and ALL of His brethren! (Rev.11:15)The Problem consists of
Changing this “Bible Truth” into a LIE, which is where 'the problem' begins. (Rom.1:25)
I have now explained 'the problem' in great detail in this: the first Post of two Posts.
In the next Post: The (spiritual) players that work to promote this fallacy are Biblically identified.God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (selah @ Feb. 28 2010,12:29) Yes Georg, My error. I should have noted Rev 13:11. And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
Not only did I make that mistake, but I quoted the wrong Strong's number (2343) for this beast.
It should have been 2342 … which means dangerous animal, venemous wild beast.This is the same Greek word used in Acts 28:4 for the venemous snake that bit Paul, but when he didn't die, they said that he was a god. Acts 28:6.
I guess the only thing I got right in that post ( ! ) was that a meaning for the word “primate” (animal or beast) is also a title for the Roman pope … The Primate Of Rome.
Ed J,
Your answer to my question was a little deep for me. I will strive to ask one (simple) question at a time, and so that I can comprehend, I would appreciate one (simple) answer at a time.
Do you believe that (physical) Islam is one of the two beasts of Revelation?
In these discussions, regarding the BOOK OF REVELATION, I would appreciate others not using the term “antichrist”, as Revelation does NOT use it either, but rather first beast, second beast and/or false prophet.
Thank you.
Hi Salah,Identification of the players
The Spiritual Players of this problem are ((The Dragon)) of Rev.12:3(Luicifer/satan),
Rev.13:1(Antichrist) and Rev.13:11(False Prophet)Jesus said: “every kingdom divided against itself cannot stand” (Mark 3:24).
The Dragon divides its great authority to the False Prophet and the Antichrist.
These three are exposed as the unholy trinity of the Antichrist (1John 2:22),
its/his False Prophet (Rev. 13:18), along with the Dragon’s great authority (Rev. 17:3).(First Beast)Antichrist: Rev.13:1
This beast directs worship towards himself because
it receives its power and authority from the dragon;
however ALL worship rightfully belongs only to GOD(YHVH).“And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him (this antichrist beast),
whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.” (Rev. 13:8)
“And the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.”(Second Beast)The False Prophet: Rev.13:11
“And he (the false prophet) exercises all the power of the ‘first beast’ before him,
and causes the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the ‘first beast’,
whose deadly wound was healed”(Rev. 13:12). The first beast is seen(by John) rise up out of a sea of people.“And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns
like a lamb, and he spoke as a dragon” (Rev. 13:11). The beast’s number, 666,
is referred to as the false prophet because it/he directs worship away from GOD.“Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast:
for it is the number of a man; and his number is six hundred threescore (60) and six” (Rev. 13:18).(The ringleader)The Dragon: Rev.12:3, Rev.17:3
“So he carried me (John) away in the spirit into the wilderness:
and I saw [a whore] sitting upon a scarlet colored beast, full of names of blasphemy,
having seven heads and ten horns.” (Rev. 17:3) “And there appeared another wonder in heaven;
and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads” (Rev. 12:3).
This red dragon of Rev. 17:3 is the scarlet-colored beast of Rev. 12:3 and this great red dragon (or beast) has a rider,
which is the great whore. Rv:17:15 15: And he saith unto me, the waters(of the sea) which thou saw,
where the whore sits, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.“For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil” (1John 3:8).
The ‘works of the devil’ manifest as the false prophet’s ability to give the antichrist the dragon’s great authority.
This means a (FREE WILL) choice was manifested through the Son of God(Jesus) to strip the antichrist of his counterfeit authority.The first and second beasts can be seen a physical manifestations which represent their ringleader Lucifer/satan.
Once we understand the spiritual battle, then we can plug in physical manifestations which represent these entities.God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgI think I will be like Georg.
I will wait till the mud settles!In the meantime, I would ask anyone (other than Ed or Georg) the following:
In Rev 13, is the image, mark and number more closely associated with the first beast or the second beast?
If you can determine that, I would appreciate knowing the specific Revelation passage or passages that answer that for you. Please confine your answer to the Book of Revelation.
I have asked two individuals that question, one having 40 years in the ministry, and the other, the head professor of a Protestant seminary … with opposing answers, but no explanation of how they arrived at their conclusion.
Thank you.
Quote (Ed J @ Feb. 28 2010,16:52) (First Beast)Antichrist: Rev.13:1 This beast directs worship towards himself because
it receives its power and authority from the dragon;
however ALL worship rightfully belongs only to GOD(YHVH).“And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him (this antichrist beast),
whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.” (Rev. 13:8)
“And the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.”(Second Beast)The False Prophet: Rev.13:11
“And he (the false prophet) exercises all the power of the ‘first beast’ before him,
and causes the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the ‘first beast’,
whose deadly wound was healed”(Rev. 13:12). The first beast is seen(by John) rise up out of a sea of people.“And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns
like a lamb, and he spoke as a dragon” (Rev. 13:11). The beast’s number, 666,
is referred to as the false prophet because it/he directs worship away from GOD.“Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast:
for it is the number of a man; and his number is six hundred threescore (60) and six” (Rev. 13:18).(The ringleader)The Dragon: Rev.12:3, Rev.17:3
“So he carried me (John) away in the spirit into the wilderness:
and I saw [a whore] sitting upon a scarlet colored beast, full of names of blasphemy,
having seven heads and ten horns.” (Rev. 17:3) “And there appeared another wonder in heaven;
and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads” (Rev. 12:3).
This red dragon of Rev. 17:3 is the scarlet-colored beast of Rev. 12:3 and this great red dragon (or beast) has a rider,
which is the great whore. Rv:17:15 15: And he saith unto me, the waters(of the sea) which thou saw,
where the whore sits, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.“For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil” (1John 3:8).
The ‘works of the devil’ manifest as the false prophet’s ability to give the antichrist the dragon’s great authority.
This means a (FREE WILL) choice was manifested through the Son of God(Jesus) to strip the antichrist of his counterfeit authority.The first and second beasts can be seen a physical manifestations which represent their ringleader Lucifer/satan.
Once we understand the spiritual battle, then we can plug in physical manifestations which represent these entities.God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
EdHow can Rev. 13:1 be the Wicked one?
Rev 13:1 ¶ And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
Who, or what, are the seven heads?
What do the ten horns mean? and the ten crowns?
And then look how this beast is put together.Rev 13:2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
Does that remind you of something, like Dan. 7:4-6?
This beast is in fact the Roman beast/empire, the fact that it is made up with parts of the previous three shows, that it is as bad as the other three put together; just as you read inDan 7:7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.
I tell you one thing, if any one can confuse some one else, you are the one. Ed, you haven't got a clue about nothing.
Georg
Quote (selah @ Feb. 28 2010,17:19) I think I will be like Georg.
I will wait till the mud settles!In the meantime, I would ask anyone (other than Ed or Georg) the following:
In Rev 13, is the image, mark and number more closely associated with the first beast or the second beast?
If you can determine that, I would appreciate knowing the specific Revelation passage or passages that answer that for you. Please confine your answer to the Book of Revelation.
I have asked two individuals that question, one having 40 years in the ministry, and the other, the head professor of a Protestant seminary … with opposing answers, but no explanation of how they arrived at their conclusion.
Thank you.
selahI respect your wish, and want reply unless you ask.
Georg
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