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But if it was as you say, why are they the ones being treated like they are? That doesnt make sense.
David,
You asked “what of M” regarding the Roman numerals that sum at 666.
You also think I left out the M to “make” the sum at 666.
David, it is clear that you are unaware that “M” is a much later development. They wanted to make a sign for 1000, so they placed two “D”s back to back to indicate 1000.
Over time, it became easier to write the letter “M” rather than two “D”s.
Contrary to what you claim, “they” ADDED the M.
Likely to disguise that the original summed at 666.Contrary to what you claim, it was not I that omitted it to “make” it sum at 666.
Might you be Roman Catholic?
Tim Kraft,
It is mind boggling how soon a thread can get off topic.
I know you had trouble posting your subject (through a computer glitch??) but would you mind starting your own thread with your challenge rather than getting mine off topic?
Perhaps you did not receive it, but I PM'd this request to you a few days ago.
Thank you.
Quote (selah @ Feb. 19 2010,12:36) A COINCIDENCE OR A CREATION? The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom and the knowledge of the holy is understanding. Proverbs 9:10.
Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is six hundred threescore and six. Rev 13:18.
There were many languages available in the day of John of Patmos, but God does NOT state the language to be used to solve this mystery.
I believe He does not identify the language, because it was not in existence in that day, but rather, it will be a common language of the last days during the time of the numbered beast.
I believe it to be the world recognized language of our day … English.
The Bible was written in Aramaic, Hebrew and Greek … they did not have a separate numbering system, as each letter had a numeric value … this is called “gematria”.
“Roman” Numerals … 1 V X L C D are a form of gematria. They just “happen” to sum at … 666
Could this be an indication pointing to “Roman” Catholicism … I think so.This has been a study for me going on 30 years. The following are some examples of “simple English Gematria” wherein A=1 … Z=26
Isaiah 20:1 speaks of a specific Assyrian king, but skeptical historians said he did not exist. They said this because the discovery of an obelisk stone with the names of the Assyrian kings that had ruled that empire made no mention of him.
The University of Chicago made a bold statement that they had found a glaring contradiction in the Bible. The “experts” said he did not exist, the Bible said he did!
God would have laughed at these “great men” for archaeology finally discovered this king's palace. How did they know it was his? Because the measurement of the palace wall was the gematria of that king’s name.
The information I present involves “gematria”, wherein an alphabet letter is assigned a numerical value … as was the case with Hebrew and Greek.
THE FIRST RECORDED USE OF GEMATRIA was found on that king's palace wall.
The name of that king was … Sargon.
SARGON = 74
MOSES “MESSIAH SIGN” . . . 74
God The Great Mathematician and His two “EVERLASTING WITNESSES”
It has been said that there is only one PURE science . . . . . . . . mathematics.
A book in my library is titled … “Mathematics Queen & Servant of Science”.
I hope to provide concrete, visual evidence that our Great God has encrypted His mathematics into the Torah as a sign TO THE JEW that Jesus is the Messiah.
The sign that God placed is the personal “signet” of Y’SHUA . . . JESUS.
This particular sign is placed in, what Jesus called, the first and great commandment to Jew and Gentile … Deut 6:4. Hear, O Israel: the Lord our God is one Lord.
This is the “Shema” and is one of two verses that God commanded the Jew to be kept before their very eyes, and in literal obedience, the Orthodox Jew places the phylactery (small box) containing those two verses upon his forehead “between his eyes”.
shemA Israel Jehovah elohenu Jehovah echaD
Note the two extra large letters A – D
They are the last letter of the first word and the last letter of the last word. They are “end signs”. I believe they are God’s last sign to the Jew that Jesus is their Messiah, and a sign of the times … our time, the end time.
Except for the Masoretes and those that study “Magna Parva and Finalis”, most Christians and Jews are unaware of the fact that when Moses was writing Torah, God inspired him to place these two majuscule signs in Deut 6:4.
There are 11 confirmed occurrences of these mysterious large letters in the Torah.
The first one occurs in the first letter in Genesis. Another one in Leviticus marks the middle letter in the Torah, and another marks the middle verse in Torah.But, ONLY ONCE do two of these strange majuscule letters ever occur TOGETHER.
Such is the case in this first and great commandment.To this day, God’s PURPOSE for these two large letters remains a mystery, but Rabbi Bochin states that together (‘ain/daleth) form the meaning “everlasting witness”.
See Strong’s Concordance # 5707 & 5703 regarding DE & AD
The Bible speaks about a nation being born “in a day”.
Prior to 1948 the State of Israel was not in existence and Hebrew was considered a dead language. These two witnesses have lain there as dead for 3 ½ prophetic days (Ps 90) That is, 3,500 years since the day God inspired Moses to place them there.
Moses’ psalm 90 states: For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch (witness) in the night …….. so teach us to number our days, that we may apply our hearts unto wisdom.
The “witness” ‘Ain, has the Hebrew value of 70 assigned to it.
The other witness, Daleth has the Hebrew value of 4. Together, these “two ancient witnesses” sum at . . 74I was informed by a statistician that ONE out of every 70 to 80 UNRELATED words could possibly sum at 74 using a=1 b=2 … z=26. The evidence I present is of RELATED words that sum at 74.
As further confirmation to Jew and Gentile of this mathematical sign, God ALSO designed ain and daleth to sum at 74, USING SIMPLE ENGLISH GEMATRIA.
AIN = 24 DALETH = 50 . . . (24 + 50 = 74)
I stress the term “simple” because some Christians in their zeal have devised some pretty complex systems to “make” some suspect sum at 666.
Please note that it is God that designed the number 666 not Satan.Simple English gematria is simply … a=1 b=2 … z=26
Is it coincidence that the following words using simple English gematria sum at 74 ?
SIMPLE = 74
ENGLISH = 74
GEMATRIA = 74In that God gave us a special sign, an “everlasting witness” to place before our eyes (3,500 years so far) I would ask a question of the JEWISH READER.
Was Jesus the Jewish Messiah that was rejected?
JESUS = 74
JEWISH = 74
MESSIAH = 74Jesus in Hebrew is Y’shua, and in Greek it is Joshua.
Y’SHUA = 74
JOSHUA = 74I noted that God through Moses placed the personal “signet” of Jesus in Deut 6:4.
SIGNET = 74
Did Jesus die on the cross … did He preach the gospel … did He speak in parables?
CROSS = 74
GOSPEL = 74
PARABLES = 74Revelation speaks of a mystery … “the key” of David.
THE KEY = 74
73 of the 150 psalms in the Book of Psalms are attributed to David.
The book of Revelation speaks about a “new song”. If David wrote a new song, it would be his song number … 74David’s “new song” added to the existing 150 psalms would result in there being 151.
JESUS CHRIST = 151
SONGS = 74
MELODY = 74The word “song/songs” (form 7893 Strongs Concordance) occurs in the OT … 74 times.
A controversial musical mystery in the Bible is the word “selah”. It occurs … 74 times.
“Ezekiel’s Temple” by H. Sully. Sully claims that the temple area covers … 74 acres.Songs and harps are a sign of prophecy in the Old Testament. The “new song” is a sign of prophecy in the OT and NT … see David’s Ps 144 and his “new song”. It states:
Blessed be the Lord my strength, which “teacheth” my hands to war, and my fingers to fight. “Hands fingers (and palms) are biblical units of measure used for “counting”.
The Hebrew word used here, Lamed, means to teach or teach wisdom.
Revelation … here is wisdom … count the number
of the beast.The Hebrew gematria of this wisdom word Lamed is … 74
As I noted in an earlier post, I am an historicist and I believe the papacy is the numbered beast. I believe the identifying mark of its followers is the sign of the cross … and always given with the right hand, never the left.
In Psalm 144, David pleads with God to send thy hand from above; rid me, and deliver me out of great waters, from the hand of strange children; Whose mouth speaketh vanity, and their right hand is a right hand of falsehood.
Repeated three verses later: Rid me, and deliver me from the hand of strange children, whose mouth speaketh vanity, and their right hand is a right hand of falsehood.
Is it a coincidence that David’s Psalm 144 is the same number as the “measurement” of the wall of 144 cubits in God’s mystical city?
CUBITS = 74
And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the messenger. Rev 22:17
In one of the oldest manuscripts of the book of Revelation (the Chester Beatty Papyri) this particular number is denoted in its gematria form … not written out in words.
The victors over the image mark and “number of the beast” sing the Song of Moses and the Song of the Lamb. Rev 15:3
Moses Songs in Torah are constructed in a very unusual (visual) form, but that is a story for another time.
Jesus is the first … the Initial … He is the last … The Omega..
INITIAL = 74
THE OMEGA = 74Jesus is our Ruler … The King.
RULER = 74
THE KING = 74Jesus is the light of the Menorah … the oil.
MENORAH = 74
When He gave himself for our sins, He said it is finished.
FINISHED = 74
Daniel’s sign or “writing on the wall” was mene, mene … meaning … number number.
MENE MENE = 74
A NUMBER = 74Daniel and the children of Issachar had the gift of the magi. Dan 1:17,21. I Chron 12:32.
It is said that the magi were skilled in the use of gematria, and I believe this is why Daniel was able to decipher the “hand of God” and His “writing on the wall”.HAND OF GOD = 74
Our God is the Great I am . . . . . . . GREAT I AM = 74
He is God and a man . . . . . . . . . . .GOD AND A MAN = 74
Orthodox Jews will not write “God” … they do it as . . . G-D
“G” is our 7th letter and “D” is our fourth . . . . . . . . . . 7-4The 144 thousand of Rev 14 sing a very unusual song that only they
understand, however, the first mention of the 144 thousands occurs in . . . Rev 7:4This group with the new song IMMEDIATELY follow the verse that numbers the beast.
As noted earlier, God did not state the language to be used for this numbering purpose.This group had their father’s name written in their forehead. Rev 14.
The earthly parent of Jesus was Joseph the carpenter. (coincidently,my parents were Mary-David and Joseph, he was a carpenter also)PARENT = 74
The Hebrew meaning of the word Joseph means “he shall add” or “increase”.
HE SHALL ADD= 74
INCREASE = 74During a period of discouragement and rejection by Christians to my study of God’s prophetic numbers (144 153 666) He gave me a personal sign of assurance.
I AM SAVED = 74
Jesus will appear in the heavens, His chariot in the clouds.
HEAVENS = 74
CHARIOT = 74
CLOUDS = 74Today, we hear much talk among futurists about an expected Third Temple.
I believe this to be spiritually understood, not literal. 40 years ago they talked about its imminent construction, and today they are still talking about it. I do not think God will ever allow that to happen, as He had their temple and their priesthood and Jerusalem itself, totally destroyed and left desolate in 70ADTEMPLE III = 74
Are these signs designed by the God who knows the end from the beginning, or are they merely “coincidence”?
There is much more, but I will close with something from the OT.
Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab and Abihu and seventy of the elders
of Israel . . . (74) . . . and they saw The God of Israel. Exodus 24:9-10.THE GOD OF ISRAEL = 144
TO GOD BE THE GLORY
May this study be a blessing to you.
cc cormier[/B]
Hi Selah
So you and Ed both study numbers but you dont both agree on who the beast is.
Interesting number patterns though.
Quote (selah @ Feb. 25 2010,18:11) Tim Kraft, It is mind boggling how soon a thread can get off topic.
I know you had trouble posting your subject (through a computer glitch??) but would you mind starting your own thread with your challenge rather than getting mine off topic?
Perhaps you did not receive it, but I PM'd this request to you a few days ago.
Thank you.
Selah: I was wondering two things.
Did you write your original Feb.19 posting on “A coincidence or a creation” or was that from a commentary of someone else?
And how long do you own rights to this thread?
If you printed someone elses commentary I feel you have no rights to this thread.
If that post was all your work I apologize and yield any further posting.
Just so you know, I posted the last time on “scriptural & biblical doctrine”. I didn't put it here. TKEd, in your theory of who the beast is, that would mean America/the west would be the Harlot. Would it not?
Which is destroyed by the Beast (God puts it into their heart to do so)And where does Abaddon come into it (rev 9 the whole chapter)
If your into numbers -rev 9:11 is the first woe.If Rev 9 Abaddon is Islam, then is Abaddon (the destroyer) also the beast? Thats a tough one.
Like I said earlier, in Rev 9, they are told at first to not harm any green thing. In Islam they are also told to not harm any green thing during war/invasion. There is a connection.
Hello Tim,
Yes, it is my personal study and findings started about 30 years ago. What peaked my interest at that time was that the language to number the beast was not stated, and I began to wonder why.
I was a futurist for many years, but when I became exposed to the writings of the Reformers and the Reformation saints and martyrs, I became an historicist.
Please do not consider me harsh for what I asked of you, but I try to give common courtesy to the thread topics of others and hopefully to stay (at least in the ball park) of the subject material.
Hope you understand my concern.
Hi Karmarie,
“So you (Selah) and Ed both study numbers but you don't both agree on who the beast is. Interesting number patterns though.”
Karmarie …There are likely MANY things Ed and I do not agree on !!!
As an example, Georg and I both believe (know!) that the beast of Revelation is Romanism and its papacy.
Georg's post on “The Antichrist” was very well presented, using historical dates and events for his conclusions.
He and I both share the same “basic” conclusion, yet if I posted on his subject, some of my interpretations for the biblical identification of the beast would differ.
Quote (selah @ Feb. 26 2010,10:48) Hi Karmarie, “So you (Selah) and Ed both study numbers but you don't both agree on who the beast is. Interesting number patterns though.”
Karmarie …There are likely MANY things Ed and I do not agree on !!!
As an example, Georg and I both believe (know!) that the beast of Revelation is Romanism and its papacy.
Georg's post on “The Antichrist” was very well presented, using historical dates and events for his conclusions.
He and I both share the same “basic” conclusion, yet if I posted on his subject, some of my interpretations for the biblical identification of the beast would differ.
Hi SelahI studied what you claim (and George) when we went to an Adventist church.
How could they though be the Beast/antichrist when they do not deny the Son?Ed does have a point. Islam does deny the Son. I know this.
By the way, to quote others do this:
the first at the beginning the second at the end (with the /)
It takes a while to learn!
But on saying (that Islam denies the father and the son)
They dont deny Jesus to be the MessiahIf you think about when the books were written (Eg John)
The only deniers of the Father and Son would have been evident in what Jesus said throughout the Gospels, and to whom he was speaking to.Quote (selah @ Feb. 26 2010,11:46) Georg … I sent you two pm's but both were “delivery failure”
Hi,
You probably didnt put a message title, Its a thin line above the typed message you write, if its left blank, it will fail.Karmarie,
Not only does Romanism NOT deny the Father and the Son, but they claim that their “Holy Father” is the “Vicar of Christ”.
Vicarious … he is instead of Christ … he is in place of Christ.
It has been said that false “Christian” religions or “Christian cults” preach and teach 90% bible truth … it is that 10% error that is most significant and subtle like Satan.
By NOT denying the Father and the Son, does that eliminate Romanism and its papal system from being the little horn, or the false prophet, or the numbered beast, or the image of the beast? I think not.
When we discuss this subject, I wish the term “antichrist” was not used .. it is all too encompassing and far too vague.
I wish Christians would be specific, and state exactly the term they wish to use when identifying the first or second beast etc..
I know it is very common to use the term “The Antichrist”, but biblically, there is not such an individual.
However there is a numbered beast, a little horn, a false prophet, a first and second beast.
Hope this makes some sense to you (and others)
Hi Selah
I know I used to get confused with the Antichrist and Beast too.
I also know the Pope has put himself in the seat with power also. Even forgivness of sins.
The Adventists get into great detail about it all, I just got lost with it. My parents are Catholic and then theres Mother Teresa etc so I came to the conclusion the Adventists were wrong but I dont really have a clue.Quote (selah @ Feb. 26 2010,09:46) Georg … I sent you two pm's but both were “delivery failure”
selahMy computer was down for a couple of days.
Georg
Quote (Ed J @ Feb. 25 2010,14:59) Quote (Elizabeth @ Feb. 24 2010,22:58) Quote (selah @ Feb. 24 2010,14:52) Georg … “If you want to talk numbers, you have to talk to EdJ” How about talking numbers with you Georg? Specifically the number of the beast as per Rev 13:18.
1. What language and number system do you believe God intended for His people to solve this mystery?
For this was a main thrust of the question of this thread. Note the original Topic … A Coincidence or a Creation? God's language to number the beast.
2. Do you know why God did NOT specify the language to be used? Do you have a logical answer? My answer was that it was not in existence in the day of John of Patmos.
selahNow I see, what you're saying, thank you.
Rev 13:18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.
You are right, there are two things here that did not exist when John wrote this book.
One, the beast; beast is a government, or a type of government that has a ruler.
Two, the man; the man is that ruler of that government.
That mans name, or title, will make up the number 666.
In v. 14 it talks about making an image “to” the beast that had the deadly wound and was healed, or lived. What beast/government received the deadly wound and lived? If you don't know the answer to that, how can you know who the image is? The answer is Rome; Rome received the deadly wound in 476 AD when the barbarian king of the Heruli deposed the Roman emperor Romulus Augustus, and made Rome his kingdom. The deadly wound was healed in 553 AD when Justinian reconquered Rome.
Now the question is, who formed their government after Rome? the pope, the Catholic church.
The pope is the emperor,
the cardinals are the senators,
the bishops are the governors,
and the priests and monks are the mayors.
The pope made himself a crown, and had this title inscribed on it in Latin;
“V I C A R I V S F I L I I D E I”
That means; “Vicar of the son of God”. The pope is self appointed, and a self crowned ruler.
Latin letters also have a numerical value.V I C A R I V S — F I L I I — D E I
5 1 100 0 0 1 5 0 – 0 1 50 1 1 – 500 0 1 = 666The pope is that man, he is the Antichrist.
Georg
Hi Georg,You got the wrong guy on your radar screen!
Get your facts straight
Did you ever read 1John 2:22, describing the 'antichrist'?
The Pope denies NEITHER The Father NOR The Son!quran is Lord Mohammad=222
The quran denies the Gospel(Death, burial and resurrection) and Muslims consider the quran to be 666!
And on the 'dome of the rock' (located in Jerusalem) is the inscription …'allah has no son'. (Matt.24:15)According to the quran: Mohammad received it from the angel Gabriel
Gal.1:8: But though we, or (satan) an angel from heaven, preach any other
gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
Col:2:18: Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping
of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
2Cor.11:13-15 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles
of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing
if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.Ed J
EdNeither do all the other “Christian” churches. Denying Christ is not the only way you can be an anti-Christ.
Gal 1:6 ¶ I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
Gal 1:7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.Perverting, and preaching another gospel/doctrine, is anti-Christ also. You quoted some interesting scriptures your self; do you really know what they mean? puffed up; deceitful workers; appearing as the ministers of light of the world? Why does that make me think of the RCC?
Georg
Quote (karmarie @ Feb. 26 2010,08:14) Ed, in your theory of who the beast is, that would mean America/the west would be the Harlot. Would it not? Like I said earlier, in Rev 9, they are told at first to not harm any green thing. In Islam they are also told to not harm any green thing during war/invasion. There is a connection.
Hi Karmarie,Why would you say that about America? What is your reasoning?
Hi Ed,
Well just going by who you think to be the beast, (Islam)
Ok so in Revelations it says that the Beast and all who follow the beast turn on the 'Harlot' and 'burn her with fire'
The harlot being the 'great city which has dominion over the world'
And it says God put it into their hearts to burn (her the great city)
But that is only going by what you think it means, Im not saying I agree with you!I studied the book of Revelation really hard. (a year or two ago)
But still cant decide what it all means.Quote (Elizabeth @ Feb. 26 2010,15:10) To all Let me ask you all a question, what is meant by “BEAST”?
Georg
Beast=kingdom
Beast as a 'non animal' is first mentioned in the book of Daniel. And explained as kingdoms.
Daniel 7:17
'The four great beasts are four kingdoms that will rise from the earth.It is then mentioned in Revelations but is a bit harder to understand
http://www.biblegateway.com/keyword….mber=51
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