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Quote (Ed J @ June 29 2012,19:02) Quote (Devolution @ June 29 2012,17:59) And when He described the horns of the ram as being Medo kings (1 horn) AND Persian kings (other horn), He was making sure His point was being made of TWO separate bloodlines by adding and into the sentence. Just agree with me so we can stop debating this would you Ed!!
Hi Devolution,Yes, 'the bear' that raised itself up on one side. (Dan 7:5)
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Hi EDJ.Belshazzar; is the LAST KING OF BABYLON: you must agree.
So how can daniel receive a vision of four beasts –COMING– out of the sea?(future).
Therefore;the lion with wings could not have been babylon.
To persist to interpret this beast as being babylon is simply refusing to see the truth of the matter.Most do interpret the lion with wings as being babylon,and therefore they have gone out of the way.
And I want you to turn around and take the right way.
Which is accepting that the lion with wings is THE MEDES(darius).The bear with the 3ribs was PERSIA(the fourth king of persia.)
The 3ribs were his 3 predecessors.
The goat with the one horn was GREECIA(alexander).
These two clashed.The ram with the two horns was MEDO/PERSIA(united).
Medes=lion: bear=persia.(babylon is no more.
Goat=greece.wakeup.
Quote (Wakeup @ June 30 2012,10:45) Hi EDJ. Most do interpret the lion with wings as being babylon,and therefore they have gone out of the way.
And I want you to turn around and take the right way.
Which is accepting that the lion with wings is THE MEDES(darius).wakeup.
Hi Wakeup,But you have not produced any evidence of your claim?
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgEDJ.
The evidence is Dan7:1.and you see but can not perceive.
You will not even admit that belshazzar is the last king in babylon.He was killed that night soon after the writings on the wall.wakeup.
Hi Wakeup,
Belshazzar being the last king of Babylon does not nullify
the fact that in Daniels dream Babylon was 'the lion'. …did you somehow think it does?God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Ed J @ July 02 2012,07:11) Hi Wakeup, Belshazzar being the last king of Babylon does not nullify
the fact that in Daniels dream Babylon was 'the lion'. …did you somehow think it does?God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
edjyou dream that ,not Daniel
Quote (Ed J @ July 02 2012,00:11) Hi Wakeup, Belshazzar being the last king of Babylon does not nullify
the fact that in Daniels dream Babylon was 'the lion'. …did you somehow think it does?God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
EDJ.You just love to be in error.
It is our choice brother.wakeup.
Quote (Wakeup @ July 02 2012,10:29) EDJ. You just love to be in error.
It is our choice brother.wakeup.
What error?Quote (Ed J @ July 02 2012,22:40) Quote (Wakeup @ July 02 2012,10:29) EDJ. You just love to be in error.
It is our choice brother.wakeup.
What error?
EDJ.Did babylon ever war against the goat?With the one horn? No.
Yet the the lion and the bear(the ram with 2horns) did.
Where does it say that the lion in your case was babylon,war against the bear in your case medo persia?wakeup.
Quote (Wakeup @ July 03 2012,23:54) EDJ. Where does it say that the lion in your case was babylon,
war against the bear in your case medo persia?wakeup.
Hi Wakeup,Jer 50:43-44 and Ezek 17:7-12 and
Daniel 7:4-5 and Daniel 2:32, 2:38-39.God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Ed J @ July 04 2012,02:22) Quote (Wakeup @ July 03 2012,23:54) EDJ. Where does it say that the lion in your case was babylon,
war against the bear in your case medo persia?wakeup.
Hi Wakeup,Jer 50:43-44 and Ezek 17:7-12 and
Daniel 7:4-5 and Daniel 2:32, 2:38-39.God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
EdJ.
When babylon is mentioned; it does not always mean only the babylon then,but also the babylon today:(the then: is for them to see it happening,and the now: is for us to see it happening.The babylon then is for them to see it happening(fulfilled);but the babylon today is for us to see it happening(to be fulfilled).It will be fulfilled soon.
Jer.51:7.Babylon hath been a golden cup in the Lords hand,that MADE ALL THE EARTH DRUNKEN: THE NATIONS HAVE DRUNKEN OF HER WINE; therefore the NATIONS ARE MAD.(this is not about babylon then,but babylon today).
wakeup.
Quote (terraricca @ June 30 2012,09:14) Quote (Devolution @ June 30 2012,06:17) Quote (terraricca @ June 29 2012,17:55) Quote Devo So far you doing ok, and I am curious to know more ,even doe you have not answered all my question,
But I am all ears
Thanks Pierre, that's very patient of you.
I believe the differences in the description of the beast is like the differences in the gospel parables….where Luke might quote something Jesus said, then Mark has a little more information that Luke didn't mention on that same quote, and John then also adds even more etc until the full picture emerges…
Rev 12, the beast vision is shown in heaven
This to me is showing the source behind the beast…that is, a spiritual origin…from Satan…the true power at work behind the sinful worldly kingdoms.
Like the woman with a crown of 12 stars…her source is from God…He is the true power behind His church…spiritual origins too.
Now the beast is called Satan in rev 12:9, but Satan isn't made up of nations, which are made of men, Satan is an angel, an individual, spirit….so the beast must be a metaphorical representative of it's owner, Satan. So since he owns this beast, shapes it, rules it, it can be called Satan, for it reflects his attributes/dealings in this world within the kingdoms which he rules…proud, strong, beastly, merciless etc Satans attributes/influence manifested in the world of men described as a beast.I believe it has only 7 crowns in this ch12 vision because the vision was confirming that there will be 7 empires with great authority, and this vision was not focussing on the kings (details) of those empires just yet, which would require mentioning 10 crowns etc (more details)…but was just giving the general description of the beast for now, letting us know who the aggressor is, because the vision of ch12 mainly concerned Jesus and his church/saints being targeted by this beast…that was the main focus…
The only difference to me between Ch13 & ch17, is that the beasts color is not mentioned, and that ch17 adds even more information by mentioning the whore/harlot.
Now ch13, because ch13 is focussing on what this beast does to mankind (in the world) when it appears…and who takes control of it…and then focusses on that leader…it is not addressing/focussing/adding on to the spiritual side of this same beast just yet like ch17 does, but instead focusses on the physical attributes in the physical world…
Then we get to ch17…and like the gospels example, now finer details are given to where ch12 left off…and what ch13 did not focus on….now comes deeper insight to the powers behind this worldly beast…now comes the spiritual dimension in the explanation…that this worldly beast is supplied and influenced by this spiritual source described as a whore, as a woman.
And her explanation is another subject that we aren't discussing yet…
So that's why i believe what i believe on this subject Pierre…now you can understand me a little better and why i say what i say on this subject…
Cheers Pierre.
DevoI have read all ,so far I have followed you and still doe ,I am still curious ,so please go on,
devoI am still here and waiting
Quote (terraricca @ July 05 2012,03:07) Quote (terraricca @ June 30 2012,09:14) Quote (Devolution @ June 30 2012,06:17) Quote (terraricca @ June 29 2012,17:55) Quote Devo So far you doing ok, and I am curious to know more ,even doe you have not answered all my question,
But I am all ears
Thanks Pierre, that's very patient of you.
I believe the differences in the description of the beast is like the differences in the gospel parables….where Luke might quote something Jesus said, then Mark has a little more information that Luke didn't mention on that same quote, and John then also adds even more etc until the full picture emerges…
Rev 12, the beast vision is shown in heaven
This to me is showing the source behind the beast…that is, a spiritual origin…from Satan…the true power at work behind the sinful worldly kingdoms.
Like the woman with a crown of 12 stars…her source is from God…He is the true power behind His church…spiritual origins too.
Now the beast is called Satan in rev 12:9, but Satan isn't made up of nations, which are made of men, Satan is an angel, an individual, spirit….so the beast must be a metaphorical representative of it's owner, Satan. So since he owns this beast, shapes it, rules it, it can be called Satan, for it reflects his attributes/dealings in this world within the kingdoms which he rules…proud, strong, beastly, merciless etc Satans attributes/influence manifested in the world of men described as a beast.I believe it has only 7 crowns in this ch12 vision because the vision was confirming that there will be 7 empires with great authority, and this vision was not focussing on the kings (details) of those empires just yet, which would require mentioning 10 crowns etc (more details)…but was just giving the general description of the beast for now, letting us know who the aggressor is, because the vision of ch12 mainly concerned Jesus and his church/saints being targeted by this beast…that was the main focus…
The only difference to me between Ch13 & ch17, is that the beasts color is not mentioned, and that ch17 adds even more information by mentioning the whore/harlot.
Now ch13, because ch13 is focussing on what this beast does to mankind (in the world) when it appears…and who takes control of it…and then focusses on that leader…it is not addressing/focussing/adding on to the spiritual side of this same beast just yet like ch17 does, but instead focusses on the physical attributes in the physical world…
Then we get to ch17…and like the gospels example, now finer details are given to where ch12 left off…and what ch13 did not focus on….now comes deeper insight to the powers behind this worldly beast…now comes the spiritual dimension in the explanation…that this worldly beast is supplied and influenced by this spiritual source described as a whore, as a woman.
And her explanation is another subject that we aren't discussing yet…
So that's why i believe what i believe on this subject Pierre…now you can understand me a little better and why i say what i say on this subject…
Cheers Pierre.
DevoI have read all ,so far I have followed you and still doe ,I am still curious ,so please go on,
devoI am still here and waiting
Hi Pierre,Sorry i disappeared, been having internet problems…
About how i see the harlot…
Since she is the mother of harlots & abominations, then through “her” has to be the first example of rebellion against God, for the mother is always first & then come the daughters etc.
And what is sin? As you know, sin is turning our backs on God & or going against Gods will…which always leads to all manner of sins/abominations…God gives examples in the old testament of sin as harlotry as you'd know, turning away from God and going after our own desires or promises of gain from devils and making our own gods (idols)….and extends on that by showing us that whatever we put first in our hearts is like following idols in Gods place, because God should always be first in our hearts.
And through whom did sin enter the world?
Satan.
And how?
His word…thou shalt not die, but become as gods etc
And what else?
Eat of the fruit from the tree of knowledge etcEve believed Satan, she had faith in his words (spiritual counsel)…she went after another rather than listen to God, that is whoring after another, that is harlotry against God.
Eve saw & ate the fruit (material temptation that would benefit her), that is trusting in the benefit of what the fruit/material object could provide her with, we can easily extend that to material wealth providing us with security and well being etc.
So Satan used two methods/tools to deceive Eve
The spiritual side of getting Eve to believe/heed his counsel & tempting her with an object that by his words, would make her as the gods…material.The harlot is adorned in precious stones & gold (material wealth)
And sits as queen (self rule)
And sees herself as no widow (not divorced from God, but independant of God)Since she has objects of material wealth, then she must also be able to provide such things.
Since she sits as queen, then she sees herself as above all others.
Since she sees herself as no widow, then she has cast God aside.And what does Satan tempt men with?
Wealth, power, self sufficiency from God..all material wealth.
This is all he has to tempt mankind with…material gain.
So this harlot represents everything Satan uses to tempt us with, and is why she sits on top of the beast…she represents the pinnacle of mens desires…what individuals and nations aspire to….wealth, power prestigue etc…hence on top of the multitudes…she is the main goal of which men hope to achieve…the driving force behind the world…material gain which brings “security” & self sufficiency & power etc etc etc…And she also sits on the beast because she influences every human not only on an individual level, but on a national/global level too. She is Satans “tool kit”, the metaphor for the worlds system & religions set up by the Father of Lies/murders…Satan…and his methods/concepts/doctrines do not include God at all…he has gone a whoring after his own desires, and his system/ways reflect a harlot gone whoring from her God…his influence is manifested in this world like a harlot on so many levels…structurally (material world) & spiritually (religions etc)….
i am a bit rushed at the moment, hope this made sense.
Cheers Pierre.
Quote (Devolution @ July 06 2012,17:50) Quote (terraricca @ July 05 2012,03:07) Quote (terraricca @ June 30 2012,09:14) Quote (Devolution @ June 30 2012,06:17) Quote (terraricca @ June 29 2012,17:55) Quote Devo So far you doing ok, and I am curious to know more ,even doe you have not answered all my question,
But I am all ears
Thanks Pierre, that's very patient of you.
I believe the differences in the description of the beast is like the differences in the gospel parables….where Luke might quote something Jesus said, then Mark has a little more information that Luke didn't mention on that same quote, and John then also adds even more etc until the full picture emerges…
Rev 12, the beast vision is shown in heaven
This to me is showing the source behind the beast…that is, a spiritual origin…from Satan…the true power at work behind the sinful worldly kingdoms.
Like the woman with a crown of 12 stars…her source is from God…He is the true power behind His church…spiritual origins too.
Now the beast is called Satan in rev 12:9, but Satan isn't made up of nations, which are made of men, Satan is an angel, an individual, spirit….so the beast must be a metaphorical representative of it's owner, Satan. So since he owns this beast, shapes it, rules it, it can be called Satan, for it reflects his attributes/dealings in this world within the kingdoms which he rules…proud, strong, beastly, merciless etc Satans attributes/influence manifested in the world of men described as a beast.I believe it has only 7 crowns in this ch12 vision because the vision was confirming that there will be 7 empires with great authority, and this vision was not focussing on the kings (details) of those empires just yet, which would require mentioning 10 crowns etc (more details)…but was just giving the general description of the beast for now, letting us know who the aggressor is, because the vision of ch12 mainly concerned Jesus and his church/saints being targeted by this beast…that was the main focus…
The only difference to me between Ch13 & ch17, is that the beasts color is not mentioned, and that ch17 adds even more information by mentioning the whore/harlot.
Now ch13, because ch13 is focussing on what this beast does to mankind (in the world) when it appears…and who takes control of it…and then focusses on that leader…it is not addressing/focussing/adding on to the spiritual side of this same beast just yet like ch17 does, but instead focusses on the physical attributes in the physical world…
Then we get to ch17…and like the gospels example, now finer details are given to where ch12 left off…and what ch13 did not focus on….now comes deeper insight to the powers behind this worldly beast…now comes the spiritual dimension in the explanation…that this worldly beast is supplied and influenced by this spiritual source described as a whore, as a woman.
And her explanation is another subject that we aren't discussing yet…
So that's why i believe what i believe on this subject Pierre…now you can understand me a little better and why i say what i say on this subject…
Cheers Pierre.
DevoI have read all ,so far I have followed you and still doe ,I am still curious ,so please go on,
devoI am still here and waiting
Hi Pierre,Sorry i disappeared, been having internet problems…
About how i see the harlot…
Since she is the mother of harlots & abominations, then through “her” has to be the first example of rebellion against God, for the mother is always first & then come the daughters etc.
And what is sin? As you know, sin is turning our backs on God & or going against Gods will…which always leads to all manner of sins/abominations…God gives examples in the old testament of sin as harlotry as you'd know, turning away from God and going after our own desires or promises of gain from devils and making our own gods (idols)….and extends on that by showing us that whatever we put first in our hearts is like following idols in Gods place, because God should always be first in our hearts.
And through whom did sin enter the world?
Satan.
And how?
His word…thou shalt not die, but become as gods etc
And what else?
Eat of the fruit from the tree of knowledge etcEve believed Satan, she had faith in his words (spiritual counsel)…she went after another rather than listen to God, that is whoring after another, that is harlotry against God.
Eve saw & ate the fruit (material temptation that would benefit her), that is trusting in the benefit of what the fruit/material object could provide her with, we can easily extend that to material wealth providing us with security and well being etc.
So Satan used two methods/tools to deceive Eve
The spiritual side of getting Eve to believe/heed his counsel & tempting her with an object that by his words, would make her as the gods…material.The harlot is adorned in precious stones & gold (material wealth)
And sits as queen (self rule)
And sees herself as no widow (not divorced from God, but independant of God)Since she has objects of material wealth, then she must also be able to provide such things.
Since she sits as queen, then she sees herself as above all others.
Since she sees herself as no widow, then she has cast God aside.And what does Satan tempt men with?
Wealth, power, self sufficiency from God..all material wealth.
This is all he has to tempt mankind with…material gain.
So this harlot represents everything Satan uses to tempt us with, and is why she sits on top of the beast…she represents the pinnacle of mens desires…what individuals and nations aspire to….wealth, power prestigue etc…hence on top of the multitudes…she is the main goal of which men hope to achieve…the driving force behind the world…material gain which brings “security” & self sufficiency & power etc etc etc…And she also sits on the beast because she influences every human not only on an individual level, but on a national/global level too. She is Satans “tool kit”, the metaphor for the worlds system & religions set up by the Father of Lies/murders…Satan…and his methods/concepts/doctrines do not include God at all…he has gone a whoring after his own desires, and his system/ways reflect a harlot gone whoring from her God…his influence is manifested in this world like a harlot on so many levels…stru
cturally (material world) & spiritually (religions etc)….i am a bit rushed at the moment, hope this made sense.
Cheers Pierre.
Devoyes it make sense and My believe is very close to yours ,
so keep going
Quote (Devolution @ July 06 2012,10:50) Hi Pierre, Sorry i disappeared, been having internet problems…
About how i see the harlot…
Since she is the mother of harlots & abominations, then through “her” has to be the first example of rebellion against God, for the mother is always first & then come the daughters etc.
And what is sin? As you know, sin is turning our backs on God & or going against Gods will…which always leads to all manner of sins/abominations…God gives examples in the old testament of sin as harlotry as you'd know, turning away from God and going after our own desires or promises of gain from devils and making our own gods (idols)….and extends on that by showing us that whatever we put first in our hearts is like following idols in Gods place, because God should always be first in our hearts.
And through whom did sin enter the world?
Satan.
And how?
His word…thou shalt not die, but become as gods etc
And what else?
Eat of the fruit from the tree of knowledge etcEve believed Satan, she had faith in his words (spiritual counsel)…she went after another rather than listen to God, that is whoring after another, that is harlotry against God.
Eve saw & ate the fruit (material temptation that would benefit her), that is trusting in the benefit of what the fruit/material object could provide her with, we can easily extend that to material wealth providing us with security and well being etc.
So Satan used two methods/tools to deceive Eve
The spiritual side of getting Eve to believe/heed his counsel & tempting her with an object that by his words, would make her as the gods…material.The harlot is adorned in precious stones & gold (material wealth)
And sits as queen (self rule)
And sees herself as no widow (not divorced from God, but independant of God)Since she has objects of material wealth, then she must also be able to provide such things.
Since she sits as queen, then she sees herself as above all others.
Since she sees herself as no widow, then she has cast God aside.And what does Satan tempt men with?
Wealth, power, self sufficiency from God..all material wealth.
This is all he has to tempt mankind with…material gain.
So this harlot represents everything Satan uses to tempt us with, and is why she sits on top of the beast…she represents the pinnacle of mens desires…what individuals and nations aspire to….wealth, power prestigue etc…hence on top of the multitudes…she is the main goal of which men hope to achieve…the driving force behind the world…material gain which brings “security” & self sufficiency & power etc etc etc…And she also sits on the beast because she influences every human not only on an individual level, but on a national/global level too. She is Satans “tool kit”, the metaphor for the worlds system & religions set up by the Father of Lies/murders…Satan…and his methods/concepts/doctrines do not include God at all…he has gone a whoring after his own desires, and his system/ways reflect a harlot gone whoring from her God…his influence is manifested in this world like a harlot on so many levels…structurally (material world) & spiritually (religions etc)….
i am a bit rushed at the moment, hope this made sense.
Cheers Pierre.
Hi Devolution,I thought this was a good post as well.
Your brother
in Christ, Jesus.
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Ed J @ July 06 2012,15:18) Quote (Devolution @ July 06 2012,10:50) Hi Pierre, Sorry i disappeared, been having internet problems…
About how i see the harlot…
Since she is the mother of harlots & abominations, then through “her” has to be the first example of rebellion against God, for the mother is always first & then come the daughters etc.
And what is sin? As you know, sin is turning our backs on God & or going against Gods will…which always leads to all manner of sins/abominations…God gives examples in the old testament of sin as harlotry as you'd know, turning away from God and going after our own desires or promises of gain from devils and making our own gods (idols)….and extends on that by showing us that whatever we put first in our hearts is like following idols in Gods place, because God should always be first in our hearts.
And through whom did sin enter the world?
Satan.
And how?
His word…thou shalt not die, but become as gods etc
And what else?
Eat of the fruit from the tree of knowledge etcEve believed Satan, she had faith in his words (spiritual counsel)…she went after another rather than listen to God, that is whoring after another, that is harlotry against God.
Eve saw & ate the fruit (material temptation that would benefit her), that is trusting in the benefit of what the fruit/material object could provide her with, we can easily extend that to material wealth providing us with security and well being etc.
So Satan used two methods/tools to deceive Eve
The spiritual side of getting Eve to believe/heed his counsel & tempting her with an object that by his words, would make her as the gods…material.The harlot is adorned in precious stones & gold (material wealth)
And sits as queen (self rule)
And sees herself as no widow (not divorced from God, but independant of God)Since she has objects of material wealth, then she must also be able to provide such things.
Since she sits as queen, then she sees herself as above all others.
Since she sees herself as no widow, then she has cast God aside.And what does Satan tempt men with?
Wealth, power, self sufficiency from God..all material wealth.
This is all he has to tempt mankind with…material gain.
So this harlot represents everything Satan uses to tempt us with, and is why she sits on top of the beast…she represents the pinnacle of mens desires…what individuals and nations aspire to….wealth, power prestigue etc…hence on top of the multitudes…she is the main goal of which men hope to achieve…the driving force behind the world…material gain which brings “security” & self sufficiency & power etc etc etc…And she also sits on the beast because she influences every human not only on an individual level, but on a national/global level too. She is Satans “tool kit”, the metaphor for the worlds system & religions set up by the Father of Lies/murders…Satan…and his methods/concepts/doctrines do not include God at all…he has gone a whoring after his own desires, and his system/ways reflect a harlot gone whoring from her God…his influence is manifested in this world like a harlot on so many levels…structurally (material world) & spiritually (religions etc)….
i am a bit rushed at the moment, hope this made sense.
Cheers Pierre.
Hi Devolution,I thought this was a good post as well.
Your brother
in Christ, Jesus.
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
holycitybiblecode.org
Hi Ed,Thanks for that, i appreciate it.
Cheers.
Quote (terraricca @ July 06 2012,14:42) Quote (Devolution @ July 06 2012,17:50) Quote (terraricca @ July 05 2012,03:07) Quote (terraricca @ June 30 2012,09:14) Quote (Devolution @ June 30 2012,06:17) Quote (terraricca @ June 29 2012,17:55) Quote Devo So far you doing ok, and I am curious to know more ,even doe you have not answered all my question,
But I am all ears
Thanks Pierre, that's very patient of you.
I believe the differences in the description of the beast is like the differences in the gospel parables….where Luke might quote something Jesus said, then Mark has a little more information that Luke didn't mention on that same quote, and John then also adds even more etc until the full picture emerges…
Rev 12, the beast vision is shown in heaven
This to me is showing the source behind the beast…that is, a spiritual origin…from Satan…the true power at work behind the sinful worldly kingdoms.
Like the woman with a crown of 12 stars…her source is from God…He is the true power behind His church…spiritual origins too.
Now the beast is called Satan in rev 12:9, but Satan isn't made up of nations, which are made of men, Satan is an angel, an individual, spirit….so the beast must be a metaphorical representative of it's owner, Satan. So since he owns this beast, shapes it, rules it, it can be called Satan, for it reflects his attributes/dealings in this world within the kingdoms which he rules…proud, strong, beastly, merciless etc Satans attributes/influence manifested in the world of men described as a beast.I believe it has only 7 crowns in this ch12 vision because the vision was confirming that there will be 7 empires with great authority, and this vision was not focussing on the kings (details) of those empires just yet, which would require mentioning 10 crowns etc (more details)…but was just giving the general description of the beast for now, letting us know who the aggressor is, because the vision of ch12 mainly concerned Jesus and his church/saints being targeted by this beast…that was the main focus…
The only difference to me between Ch13 & ch17, is that the beasts color is not mentioned, and that ch17 adds even more information by mentioning the whore/harlot.
Now ch13, because ch13 is focussing on what this beast does to mankind (in the world) when it appears…and who takes control of it…and then focusses on that leader…it is not addressing/focussing/adding on to the spiritual side of this same beast just yet like ch17 does, but instead focusses on the physical attributes in the physical world…
Then we get to ch17…and like the gospels example, now finer details are given to where ch12 left off…and what ch13 did not focus on….now comes deeper insight to the powers behind this worldly beast…now comes the spiritual dimension in the explanation…that this worldly beast is supplied and influenced by this spiritual source described as a whore, as a woman.
And her explanation is another subject that we aren't discussing yet…
So that's why i believe what i believe on this subject Pierre…now you can understand me a little better and why i say what i say on this subject…
Cheers Pierre.
DevoI have read all ,so far I have followed you and still doe ,I am still curious ,so please go on,
devoI am still here and waiting
Hi Pierre,Sorry i disappeared, been having internet problems…
About how i see the harlot…
Since she is the mother of harlots & abominations, then through “her” has to be the first example of rebellion against God, for the mother is always first & then come the daughters etc.
And what is sin? As you know, sin is turning our backs on God & or going against Gods will…which always leads to all manner of sins/abominations…God gives examples in the old testament of sin as harlotry as you'd know, turning away from God and going after our own desires or promises of gain from devils and making our own gods (idols)….and extends on that by showing us that whatever we put first in our hearts is like following idols in Gods place, because God should always be first in our hearts.
And through whom did sin enter the world?
Satan.
And how?
His word…thou shalt not die, but become as gods etc
And what else?
Eat of the fruit from the tree of knowledge etcEve believed Satan, she had faith in his words (spiritual counsel)…she went after another rather than listen to God, that is whoring after another, that is harlotry against God.
Eve saw & ate the fruit (material temptation that would benefit her), that is trusting in the benefit of what the fruit/material object could provide her with, we can easily extend that to material wealth providing us with security and well being etc.
So Satan used two methods/tools to deceive Eve
The spiritual side of getting Eve to believe/heed his counsel & tempting her with an object that by his words, would make her as the gods…material.The harlot is adorned in precious stones & gold (material wealth)
And sits as queen (self rule)
And sees herself as no widow (not divorced from God, but independant of God)Since she has objects of material wealth, then she must also be able to provide such things.
Since she sits as queen, then she sees herself as above all others.
Since she sees herself as no widow, then she has cast God aside.And what does Satan tempt men with?
Wealth, power, self sufficiency from God..all material wealth.
This is all he has to tempt mankind with…material gain.
So this harlot represents everything Satan uses to tempt us with, and is why she sits on top of the beast…she represents the pinnacle of mens desires…what individuals and nations aspire to….wealth, power prestigue etc…hence on top of the multitudes…she is the main goal of which men hope to achieve…the driving force behind the world…material gain which brings “security” & self sufficiency & power etc etc etc…And she also sits on the beast because she influences every human not only on an individual level, but on a national/global level too. She is Satans “tool kit”, the metaphor for the worlds system & religions set up by the Father of Lies/murders…Satan…and his methods/concepts/do
ctrines do not include God at all…he has gone a whoring after his own desires, and his system/ways reflect a harlot gone whoring from her God…his influence is manifested in this world like a harlot on so many levels…structurally (material world) & spiritually (religions etc)….i am a bit rushed at the moment, hope this made sense.
Cheers Pierre.
Devoyes it make sense and My believe is very close to yours ,
so keep going
Hi Pierre,I'm glad our understanding is close on this! Close is better than far
Hope you don't mind if i backtrack a little…
When i look at revelation ch 13, i see God generalizing in verses 1-8 before concentrating on that 2nd beast, which becomes very detailed…and this 2nd beast is actually the main focus of ch13…and is subtly mentioned within the first beasts description of which the other chapters concentrate on more, that is, the other chapters besides this one mainly focus on the beast empire itself…but ch13 is mainly about the false prophet…and the 1st beast has to be mentioned, because the ruling head to come is that same head that the false prophet takes over…hence both beasts being mentioned.
Rev 13:1
And i stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.generalization identifying the empires so we can understand God is revealing Satans last empire emerging…the names of blasphemy on his heads is very interesting too!! That has a sneaky meaning…lol.
v2 is confirming that same 7 headed beast generalization and revealing that Satan has been giving this beast its power all along.
v3 is revealing the head that finally gets healed, this refers to the 10 kings finally united…their uniting is the healing.
SKIP
v5 And there was given unto him a MOUTH speaking great things and blasphemies, and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
notice these verses were concentrating on the beast empire, but here, now God is subtly identifying the arrival of the ruler of this empire/head….the mouth…and this matches with the empire (10 kings) handing their power over to one cause (rev 17:11-12)
Daniel 7:8
I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots; and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a MOUTH speaking great thingsRev 13:5 And there was given unto him a MOUTH speaking great things and blasphemies, and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
Daniel 7:11
I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake, i beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.Rev 13:5 And there was given unto him a MOUTH speaking great things and blasphemies, and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
Daniel 7:20
……..even that horn that had eyes, and a MOUTH speaking very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.Rev 13:5 And there was given unto him a MOUTH speaking great things and blasphemies, and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
Daniel 7:25
And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the Most High, and think to change times and laws, and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time
= 42 months!So the first beast description in ch13 was for clarifying that the world was going to see what we haven't seen for a while…an actual “traditional” bona fide empire on the world stage once again….hence the beast needing to emerge from the waters…we haven't had a true world empire since the fall of the British empire…so the waters have been empire free…dormant…dormant until this beast emerges onto the world stage once again.
And the 2nd beast, the false prophet/little horn/mouth is the fine details which the first beast description touched upon.
This is what i see Pierre…
Thanks again for your patience bro…cheers.
devo
you still doing good ,I have some small critics but we will talk them over latter,
so please continue if you have more ?
Quote (terraricca @ July 07 2012,09:24) devo you still doing good ,I have some small critics but we will talk them over latter,
so please continue if you have more ?
Hi Pierre,Thanks for letting me show you what i see even though we will have some differences…thats ok, like you said we can talk about them later.
Yes, i do have plenty more to dissect on this subject if you don't mind…so when i get some more time later tonight, i will post some more…
thanks again for your patience,
Cheers.Quote (terraricca @ July 07 2012,14:05) Devo good go for it I be watching,your quote,with all my attention
Thanks Pierre,You know what, i decided im gonna take your advice and just go for it…
Since the beast with 7 heads has been around, it has always had an empire/head ruling in the world as top dog…Egypt then Assyria then Babylon etc, one head has always been active…until of course “our modern times”…since the late 40's no head/empire has been active at all.
But, when this beast rises out of the sea, and has its wounded head healed, after nearly 70 years of absence, we will see another true empire stand up one last time.
And when it finally comes, it will be 10 nations uniting first, which is the healing of that wounded head.So first expect 10 nations to join together, and as the 10 leaders of these nations begin their united reign, another man will start to rise to power from among those very same 10 leaders.
Daniel 7:8
I considered the horns (the 10 leaders), and, behold, there came up among them another little horn before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots….So when the 10 kings unite, and start to rule, another man is going to begin his rise to power from among their own ranks.
among (-mng) also amongst (-mngst)
prep.
1. In the midst of; surrounded by: a pine tree among cedars.
2. In the group, number, or class of: She is among the wealthy.
3. In the company of; in association with: traveling among a group of tourists.
4. By many or the entire number of; with many: a custom popular among the Greeks.
5. By the joint action of: Among us, we will finish the job.
6. With portions to each of: Distribute this among you.
7. Each with the other: Don't fight among yourselves.And when he eventually gains power from his successful “campaign” with his “wonderful words” and his miracles by which he mesmerizes the people, he is going to get rid of 3 leaders out of those 10 kicked out of that ruling empire he just took over. (whether he just kicks 3 leaders out and he lets the 3 member nations remain and be absorbed into the remaining nations within that empire, or he kicks out the 3 leaders along with their nations from that union, im not sure).
But the 10 kings are very much alive and active when this man arises among them.
Before whom
Daniel 7:8
I considered the horns (the 10 leaders), and, behold, there came up among them another little horn before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots….Some say before whom meaning 3 past leaders before this man even comes along…the 3 were historic nations/kings etc…
Why i disagree:
Besides the fact that this man comes up among the 10 which means that the 10 have to be there in person for him to come up amongst them…there is this:Daniel 7:24
And the 10 horns out of this kingdom are 10 kings that shall arise, and another shall rise after them, and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue 3 kings.So these 3 have to be uprooted by this man, this man alone has the authority to uproot them, and since he uproots them, they must be alive and in his company to be affected by him…meaning that it is impossible for them to be uprooted until this man who does the uprooting comes along. So they have to be alive at the same time.
So before whom in this context must mean “in the presence of”…there stood the king, before whom knelt his knights…they were there in his presence.
And if these knights were before their king, then they are also in his sight, in the sight of the king…and they are also before him…in front of him.Before him
Revelation 13:11
And i beheld another beast coming up out of the earth, and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragonRevelation 13:12
And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him , and causes the earth and them that dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.Before him in this context is used in both its meanings…because the 10 kings did come 1st before this man rose to power after their initial union…but these 10 also witness his miracles etc….so before him also indicates “in his presence”..”in his sight”.
Revelation 13:14
And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast…..We know that only 1 beast head rules at any one time, yet here we have 2 beasts cooperating! Speaking with the same authority at the same time!
And even though the 10 came 1st, before that other man arose, the 10 were before him only for a short space of time anyways…And one man does not make up an empire/head…that takes populations, not individuals.Revelation 17:12
And the 10 horns which thou saw are 10 kings, which have received no kingdom as yet, but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.One hour…one year? A year & a half?
Whichever it is, it is only for a short period before this man arises.
And why don't i say 3 years? 10 years? 50 years?
Because that would clash with other prophecies concerning Israels time limit before they are punished by this man & this empire he takes over…& because of that, there just isn't enough time for the 10 to be ruling more than 1 & a half years before this man comes & takes over the empire & then marks the people….but that is another subject again.Beast from the sea
Beast from the earthwhenever multitudes are mentioned, isn't it always speaking of nations etc!…i mean, masses make up countries right…the waters…it doesn't mean that the multitudes were made from the waters, but collectivley,they are the waters.
And when God concentrates on individuals….well, what was Adam formed out of?….out of the earth! clay/dirt etc…
Individuals come out of the earth…So in conclusion, two heads/empires have never ruled at the same time nor cooperated together at the same time…they have always clashed to see who becomes top dog, to become the next head…so these 2 beasts of revelation 13 must stand for something more subtle…
And i believe, as im sure you do, that the 1st beast stands for an empire (the head being concentrated on)…hence rising from the waters/mutitudes
And the 2nd beast stands for an individual….rising out of the earth….who will become the first beasts eventual sole ruler…the false prophet himself, the little horn, the mouth.
And as i mentioned, one man does not make an empire, but one man can rule an empire!And it is when this one man takes control of this empire, that that same empire then becomes the 8th…
It goes global because of that “stout” man with miracles and “wonderful” words…the mouth who deceives the WHOLE world
It is this man who will bring in the One world government with himself as the one world ruler…
Only through this man uniting the world, can the 8th head…modern Babel be reborn…Babel…the beast that was, once, long long ago..even though it is not at the moment, yet it will be once again!
And this global rule won't last long before wars start breaking out to shatter that “small peace”…and till our Lord comes at last.There is still much more to say on this Pierre, & im sorry for t
he big post, if you'd like me to continue, or to stop, it's up to you?cheers Pierre.
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