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Quote (david @ Dec. 11 2006,09:07) “The Father is greater than I am.”
I take this to mean greater in power, wisdom
Well you have no basis to take it to mean that. The verses that you allude to are unpredicated, and do not stipulate in what respect the Father is greater than the Son. I think it's highly unlikely that it's a reference to their respective natures/beings (yes ontology!!). This is because, outside of the “my Father is greater than I” verses when the Greek word “meizōn” is used by NT writers it's almost invariably a reference to position/rank, not ontology. Some examples to underscore my point:Matthew 11:11
“Truly I say to you, among those born of women there has not arisen anyone greater than John the Baptist! Yet the one who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.Did Jesus mean that “among those born of women” there has not arisen a greater being than John the Baptist?
Luke 22:27
“For who is greater, the one who reclines at the table or the one who serves? Is it not the one who reclines at the table? But I am among you as the one who serves.Did Jesus mean to convey that the one who reclines at the table is a greater being than the one who serves?
John 4:12
“You are not greater than our father Jacob, are You, who gave us the well, and drank of it himself and his sons and his cattle?”Was the woman at the well inquiring whether Jesus was a superior being to Jacob?
John 13:16
“Truly, truly, I say to you, a slave is not greater than his master, nor is one who is sent greater than the one who sent him.Was Jesus teaching that a master is greater in his ontology than his slave? (notice the parallel with Himself and His Father. The Father is greater than the Son IN THE SAME SENSE that the Master is greater than the slave, ALTHOUGH they are identical as to their nature/essence/being)
John 15:20
“Remember the word that I said to you, ' A slave is not greater than his master ' If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you; if they kept My word, they will keep yours also.Again, is Jesus teaching us here that a slave is a lower being than his master?
1 Corinthians 14:5
Now I wish that you all spoke in tongues, but even more that you would prophesy; and greater is one who prophesies than one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets, so that the church may receive edifying.According to Paul, does the one who prophesies have a superior nature than one who speaks in tongues?
You see David, I do not dispute that the Father is greater than the Son – He is – but I do dispute that He is a greater being.
Quote and since he is the father, greater in age as well. That is what the word “father” means.
He he…that's interesting David, but if you're going to use the anthropic understanding of fathers and sons as the basis for your principle, it does raise an interesting question for me:-Given that the Christ is credited for making ALL THINGS (John 1:3, Col 1:16), and 'time' is in fact a 'thing' (in that it is a physical property of the universe, irrevocably interlinked with space and matter), and therefore He (the Logos) preceded time altogether, explain how you understand the concept of the Son having 'a beginning' in the context of timelessness?
Quote HEBREWS 9:24
“For Christ entered, not into a holy place made with hands, which is a copy of the reality, but into heaven itself, now to appear before the person of God for us.”
We see two distinct beings. One is entering to approach the other, who happens to be the “person of God.” Does your Bible say “persons of God”?
When Christ enters God's presense, he's not entering his own presense. God is separate, distinct, in this scripture.
Actually I don't have a Bible per se, I predominantly use the NASB, KJV, ESV and Amplified versions, which render the verse this way:NASB
For Christ did not enter a holy place made with hands, a mere copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us;KJV
For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:ESV
For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf.AMP
For Christ (the Messiah) has not entered into a sanctuary made with [human] hands, only a copy and pattern and type of the true one, but [He has entered] into heaven itself, now to appear in the [very] presence of God on our behalf.BTW, I don't deny that the Father is “God” and “a person”, obviously He is…..as is Yahshua.
Quote The Bible is a book about God and his annointed one, the Christ, the one he annointed. God's name appears thousands of times, and there's probably 10,000 references to God. We tend to assume that things aren't trinities. I've never met you Is 1:18. But I assume you're not a trinity, because there's no reason to believe so. If God is part of a trinity, why only hint at it in a few scriptures?
I disagree that it's only hinted at in a few verses, but rather the trinity is a logically deduced elucidation of WHAT God is, as far as i'm concerned it's the only reasonable explanation in which ALL scripture concerning the Father, Son and Spirit is fully reconciled and harmonised.Quote But what about the centuries in between? The early Christians believed the truth. A few hundred years later, there were these struggles over words like ontology. But what about the time in between? What did they believe? Apparently, not the trinity. If they did, why would it have taken so long to figure it out and amid such controversy?
John 16:12-13
12″I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13″But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.Quote No. But look at who officiated over these things and why he did so and what his motives were and how the “bishops” r
eally couldn't argue.
I couldn't care less about the various councils and creeds that eventuated from them. I was just trying to point out the vacuous nature of your question….Blessings
Hi Is 1.18,
Is it any surprise that GREATER has many meanings in scripture?
God is greater than Jesus surely in terms of power and ability.Quote Hi Is 1.18,
Is it any surprise that GREATER has many meanings in scripture?
God is greater than Jesus surely in terms of power and ability.Tell me NH….
How does the Father have more power and ability than Jesus, except in rank, when he has given all power and authority to Jesus?
Matt 28:18
And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.Eph 1:
19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to usward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.
Quote You see David, I do not dispute that the Father is greater than the Son – He is – but I do dispute that He is a greater being. In what ways is He greater?
Position/rank?david
Hi W,
Ask Jesus.
John 10:29
My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
John 14:28
Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 12 2006,22:38) Quote Hi Is 1.18,
Is it any surprise that GREATER has many meanings in scripture?
God is greater than Jesus surely in terms of power and ability.Tell me NH….
How does the Father have more power and ability than Jesus, except in rank, when he has given all power and authority to Jesus?
Matt 28:18
And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.Eph 1:
19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to usward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.
An excellent question WorshippingJesus. “ALL” power would surely mean just that – unlimited, absolute, supreme power. Maybe that's why He can “uphold all things by the word of His power” (Heb 1:3)…..Excellent! Thanks!
I suppose NH and I are running everybody off.
I am a die hard 100% Holy Ghost filled, Worshipping Jesus, child of the Father.
Quote (david @ Dec. 12 2006,23:17) Quote You see David, I do not dispute that the Father is greater than the Son – He is – but I do dispute that He is a greater being. In what ways is He greater?
Position/rank?david
Hi again David,
I believe I have answered this question for you a number of times before. But just to jog your memory, I think “greater” refers to position. The Father holds a hierarchical position that is higher than Yahshua's, in the same sense that a General holds a positionally higher office than a Lieutenant. Or to use Yahshua's own example – a master has a higher position than a slave. YET, in both analogies, there is no disparity in their respective essence/nature/being – they are both 100% human. This is what I believe “greater” refers to. Moreover, the writer of Hebrews tells us that his hypostasis (substance/essence) is an exact representation of His Father’s.“… in Heb. 1:3, of Christ as “the very image” of God's “substance;” here the word has the meaning of the real nature of that to which reference is made in contrast to the outward manifestation (see the preceding clause); it speaks of the Divine essence of God existent and expressed in the revelation of His Son. The AV, “person” is an anachronism; the word was not so rendered till the 4th cent. Most of the earlier Eng. versions have “substance;” (Vine’s Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words)
An exact representation.
Blessings David
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 13 2006,06:16) Excellent! Thanks! I suppose NH and I are running everybody off.
I am a die hard 100% Holy Ghost filled, Worshipping Jesus, child of the Father.
Awesome.Quote Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 12 2006,22:38)
Quote
Hi Is 1.18,
Is it any surprise that GREATER has many meanings in scripture?
God is greater than Jesus surely in terms of power and ability.Tell me NH….
How does the Father have more power and ability than Jesus, except in rank, when he has given all power and authority to Jesus?
Matt 28:18
And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.Eph 1:
19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to usward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.An excellent question WorshippingJesus. “ALL” power would surely mean just that – unlimited, absolute, supreme power. Maybe that's why He can “uphold all things by the word of His power” (Heb 1:3)…..
LET'S LOOK AT THE BIBLE FOR A SECOND.
In several places, we are told that God subjected “all things” under Jesus feet.
Now, you could take this wrongly. But there is an obvious exception, that is mentioned in one of these scriptures:1 CORINTHIANS 15:27-28
“For [God] “subjected all things under his feet.” But when he says that ‘all things have been subjected,’ IT IS EVIDENT THAT IT IS WITH THE EXCEPTION of the one who subjected all things to him. But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone.”Similarly, it is obviously evident that if God is the one who gives Christ “all power,” then God Almighty himself is an exception. Christ obvioulsy doesn't have power over the one who gave him this power. It is evident by simple reasoning that there is an exception, even as there is an obvious exception to the scriptures that say: “All things” were subjected under Jesus feet.
Quote An exact representation.
Like a reflection in a mirror is an exact representation?
Jesus, who was sent by God was God's representative on earth. And, being that he was with God for untold time, he obvioulsy would know his Father intimately, and could represent him exactly, meaning, represent his thoughts and purposes.Part of my problem might be that I keep thinking of the trinity as the Catholic trinity.
I would really like a differentiation or a definition of what you actually believe.
Quote LET'S LOOK AT THE BIBLE FOR A SECOND. In several places, we are told that God subjected “all things” under Jesus feet.
Now, you could take this wrongly. But there is an obvious exception, that is mentioned in one of these scriptures:1 CORINTHIANS 15:27-28
“For [God] “subjected all things under his feet.” But when he says that ‘all things have been subjected,’ IT IS EVIDENT THAT IT IS WITH THE EXCEPTION of the one who subjected all things to him. But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone.”Similarly, it is obviously evident that if God is the one who gives Christ “all power,” then God Almighty himself is an exception. Christ obvioulsy doesn't have power over the one who gave him this power. It is evident by simple reasoning that there is an exception, even as there is an obvious exception to the scriptures that say: “All things” were subjected under Jesus feet.
David!
Well put, but if you look at my post, I am not saying Jesus has power over the Father. I am saying the Father gave him all power and authority in heaven and earth and yes put all things under his feet.
So this means that Jesus is equal to the Father not in rank but in Power and Authority.
Jesus sits at the right hand of the throne of God. The highest positon in the universe. Not below the Father nor above the Father but at his right Hand.
Quote (david @ Dec. 13 2006,06:56) Like a reflection in a mirror is an exact representation?
Jesus, who was sent by God was God's representative on earth. And, being that he was with God for untold time, he obvioulsy would know his Father intimately, and could represent him exactly, meaning, represent his thoughts and purposes.
I don't think the word “hypostasis” has any bearing on the external or physical (as the mirror analogy would suggest), but rather the internal and metaphysical. Yahshua's essential being (i.e. the very nature of His substance) is an identical representation (“charaktēr”) of His Father's. That being the case, I cannot see how anyone can logically argue Yahshua is “lesser” in the nature of His being than the Father. non sequitur….Quote Part of my problem might be that I keep thinking of the trinity as the Catholic trinity. I would really like a differentiation or a definition of what you actually believe.
I'll get back to you on that (working on a post to Cubes atm). Although I get the feeling i'm being set up for something….Blessings
Quote I'll get back to you on that (working on a post to Cubes atm). Although I get the feeling i'm being set up for something…. No set up. I just am really only familiar with Catholic trinity doctrine and didn't know there was a difference. Frankly, I'm not sure all the people on here who defend the trinity agree with all the aspects of it, or even what it is.
I'd just like an actual definition or all encompassing idea of what the trinity is to you.
david
Hi w,
You say
“I am a die hard 100% Holy Ghost filled, Worshipping Jesus, child of the Father.”Is your worship of the Son of God then at the expense of worship of the Father?
Quote Hi w,
You say
“I am a die hard 100% Holy Ghost filled, Worshipping Jesus, child of the Father.”Is your worship of the Son of God then at the expense of worship of the Father?
NH
Jn5:23
That all [men] should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.Jn 12:26
If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will [my] Father honour.Jn 8:42
Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.Jn 14:21
He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.I Jn 2:23
Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: [(but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also].Matt 14:23
Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God.Matt 28:9
And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him.Matt 28:17
And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.Jn 20:28
And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.Rev 5:11-13
11] And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;
[12] Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.
[13] And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
Quote Hi w,
You say
“I am a die hard 100% Holy Ghost filled, Worshipping Jesus, child of the Father.”Is your worship of the Son of God then at the expense of worship of the Father?
Not Possible NH!
WJ,
Quote Well put, but if you look at my post, I am not saying Jesus has power over the Father. I am saying the Father gave him all power and authority in heaven and earth and yes put all things under his feet. So this means that Jesus is equal to the Father not in rank but in Power and Authority.
I think you miss my point. It is “evident” that even though many scriptures say that “all things” have been made subject to Jesus, there is an exception, THE ONE WHO SUBJECTED THOSE THINGS.
Similarly, it is evident that THE ONE WHO GAVE ALL POWER AND AUTHORITY to Jesus is not under Jesus power or authority.Quote Jesus sits at the right hand of the throne of God. The highest positon in the universe. Not below the Father nor above the Father but at his right Hand.
The highest position in the universe is not “sitting at someone's right hand.” It is the one who doesn't need a reference point. Jesus is in a position of power because he sits at his Father's right hand.
If I have someone who is my right hand guy, that doesn't mean we are equal in power. It means he is second to me, the guy I use for everything, the guy I trust. But it in now way means hes' above me.
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