5 Questions

Some more questions:

ASK YOURSELF:
1. Can I find any scripture that mentions “Trinity”?
2. Can I find any scripture that says that God is made up of three distinct persons, Father, Son, and holy spirit, but that the three are only one God?
3. Can I find any scripture that says that the Father, Son, and holy spirit are equal in all ways, such as in eternity, power, position, and wisdom?
4. Can I find a single scripture where the Bible equates the holy spirit with the Father?
5. If it is not expressly taught, but implied as some claim, why would the Bible only “imply” its most important teaching–who God is? The Bible is clear on other basic teachings; why not on this, the most important one? Would not the Creator of the universe author a book that was clear on his being a Trinity if that were the case? Why would God leave it to imperfect men to struggle with centuries later?
6. Why did this “central doctrine” not become dogma until the fourth century—amid bitter controversy that caused widespread confusion?’

I don't expect that you guys will get an answer.

I have been posting here since 2001 and they just avoid these kinds of questions and give you “my lord and my god” and other stuff (usually the same 5 scriptures) that they think sways their way. I cannot remember in one instance where they even attempted to answer some of the clear scriptures regarding the Father being the true God and Jesus his son.

They simply ignore many scriptures. They are like turkey's who put their head in the sand. They only hear what they want to hear.

It seems that even scripture cannot challenge some. Their hearts are very hard and they are too proud to admit that scripture differs with their doctrines and teachings.

However the challenge is in this discussion and it would seem obvious to all if they cannot agree with these scriptures.

They usually get away with ignoring scripture because other discussions move on so quickly.

Let's try and keep this one focussed on the first 2 posts.

As far as I know, I have looked at all or most of the scriptures that Trinitarians use in support of their time developed doctrine.

See https://heavennet.net/writings/trinity-05.htm

If I have missed some out, then perhaps they can be added to that writing in order to provide an even stronger case.

I haven't seen 1 Trinitarian take the scriptures that I repeat all the time and explain them with a Trinitarian slant. They just ignore them.

Where is the Trinitarian's honest look at the scriptures that talk about the Father being the one true God. They haven't even made an attempt.

We are still waiting ……………………………

The questions that sscott asked are yet to be answered in light of your doctrine.

BTW: if I think these guys are a bunch of turkeys then I am entitled to that. They gobble up the doctrines of men, so I think a turkey is fitting. Perhaps a Moa is better because they will eventually become extinct if they don't repent. One day all lies will be flushed down the celestial toilet.

In other words, do not challenge me I cannot make a defense. So shuddup a ya face or I will get kinda mad and start using words like ontological again.

riiiiight…..

not interested?…..

Guess not. That's a shame, it might have been fun. I'm off to bed.

“The Father is greater than I am.”
I take this to mean greater in power, wisdom and since he is the father, greater in age as well. That is what the word “father” means.

HEBREWS 9:24
“For Christ entered, not into a holy place made with hands, which is a copy of the reality, but into heaven itself, now to appear before the person of God for us.”
We see two distinct beings. One is entering to approach the other, who happens to be the “person of God.” Does your Bible say “persons of God”?
When Christ enters God's presense, he's not entering his own presense. God is separate, distinct, in this scripture.

The Bible is a book about God and his annointed one, the Christ, the one he annointed. God's name appears thousands of times, and there's probably 10,000 references to God. We tend to assume that things aren't trinities. I've never met you Is 1:18. But I assume you're not a trinity, because there's no reason to believe so. If God is part of a trinity, why only hint at it in a few scriptures?

But what about the centuries in between? The early Christians believed the truth. A few hundred years later, there were these struggles over words like ontology. But what about the time in between? What did they believe? Apparently, not the trinity. If they did, why would it have taken so long to figure it out and amid such controversy?

No. But look at who officiated over these things and why he did so and what his motives were and how the “bishops” really couldn't argue.

sscott.
I will get to your 5 questions, but at this moment I have had enough of the computer for this day.

t8 Here is your answer to the one true God verse. (Not my own composition)

You are obviously assuming Unitarianism, that there is only one Person who is God (namely the Father), and then imposes this assumption onto the reading of the text. The only thing one has to do in order to understand Jesus’ point here is to simply read the entire context:

“After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed: ‘Father, the time has come. Glorify YOUR SON, that YOUR SON may glorify you. For you granted him authority over all people THAT HE MIGHT GIVE ETERNAL LIFE TO ALL THOSE YOU HAVE GIVEN HIM. Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. I have brought you glory on earth by completing the work you gave me to do. And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I HAD WITH YOU BEFORE THE WORLD BEGAN … For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me … All I have is yours, and all you have is mine. And glory has come TO ME through them. I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name – the name you gave me – so that they may be one as we are one … My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be IN US so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one: I IN THEM and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me. Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me BECAUSE YOU LOVED ME BEFORE THE CREATION OF THE WORLD. Righteous Father, though the world does not know you, I know you, and they know that you have sent me. I have made you known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them AND THAT I MYSELF MAY BE IN THEM.’” John 17:1-5, 8, 10-11, 20-26

We note from the foregoing that:

Jesus is God’s Son.
Jesus gives eternal life to all that God gives him, which is a claim to being absolute Deity since only God can give eternal life.
Jesus existed in glory with the Father even before the world was created.
Jesus demands to be glorified by God, something which no mere creature could ever demand.
Jesus states that everything that the Father has belongs to him, which makes him the heir of everything that exists.
Jesus indwells all the believers, an indication that Christ is omnipresent and therefore God since God alone is omnipresent.
Jesus is the object of the Father’s love even before the creation of the world.
Thus, the context makes it clear that Jesus’ statement about the Father being the only true God in no way was meant to deny that Christ is God as well, since he goes on to make claims that only God could make. Jesus is simply addressing the Father for being the only true God since this is what he truly is, and yet we know from the same Bible that the only true God exists as more than one Person. The Holy Scriptures plainly show that both the Son and the Holy Spirit are also truly God.

Therefore, since the one true God exists as a Godhead this means that the three Persons can be addressed as the only true God both individually and collectively. Putting it another way:

The Godhead is the only true God.
Each specific member of the Godhead is the only true God.
Therefore, the members of the Godhead are the only true God, whether individually or collectively.
This is why Jesus can speak of one member of the Godhead as the only true God without this implying that the other members are not God. To make this point more clear, notice what the inspired book of Hebrews says:

“But about the Son he says, ‘Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions by anointing you with the oil of joy.’ He also says, ‘In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands. They will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment. You will roll them up like a robe; like a garment they will be changed. But you remain the same, and your years will never end.’” Hebrews 1:8-12

The Father praises his Son by calling him God, Lord, eternal King and for being the Creator and Sustainer of all creation! The same Scriptures teach that Jesus is the only sovereign Master and Lord:

“For admission has been secretly gained by some who long ago were designated for this condemnation, ungodly persons who pervert the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.” Jude 1:4

Now does this mean that the Father is not God, sovereign Master, Lord, and the Creator of the heavens and the earth? The answer is obvious. The Father, according to the Holy Bible, is just as much God, Master, Lord, and just as responsible for creating and sustaining the universe as the Son is. In a similar way, the Son glorifying his Father as the only true God doesn’t mean that Christ was denying that he is full Deity as well.

In fact, a careful reading of John 17:3 helps to further confirm that Jesus wasn’t denying his absolute Deity:

“And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, AND (kai) Jesus Christ whom you have sent.”

The Lord Jesus, by using the Greek conjunction kai in his prayer, makes himself the necessary object of the knowledge that leads to eternal life. In other words, Jesus basically made himself a coequal partner with God by claiming that eternal life is dependent on knowing both the Father and the Son. As one commentary noted:

and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent–This is the only place where our Lord gives Himself this compound name, afterwards so current in apostolic preaching and writing. Here the terms are used in their strict signification—”JESUS,” because He “saves His people from their sins”; “CHRIST,” as anointed with the measureless fulness of the Holy Ghost for the exercise of His saving offices “WHOM THOU HAST SENT,” in the plenitude of Divine Authority and Power, to save. “The very juxtaposition here of Jesus Christ with the Father is a proof, by implication, of our Lord's Godhead. The knowledge of God and a creature could not be eternal life, and such an association of the one with the other would be inconceivable” [ALFORD]. (Jamieson & Fausset & Brown, Commentary Critical and Explanatory on the Whole Bible; online source; bold and underline emphasis ours)

The late renowned Bible expositor John Gill stated:

… The Arians and Unitarians urge this text, against the true and proper deity of our Lord Jesus, and his equality with the Father, but without success; since the Father is called the only true God, in opposition to the many false gods of the Heathens, but not to the exclusion of the Son or Spirit; for Christ is also styled the one Lord, and only Lord God, but not to the exclusion of the Father.

Sscott.
Re. your 5 questions.

Q1. Your comments. God is a Trinity..without one member of the Trinity you do not have God.

There are a number of models of the “trinity” being used in Christianity today and your question I assume deals with the Catholic trinity.

In a nutshell the Catholics teach that originally there was God the Father and that He copulated with Himself to produce God the Son, and then out of them both came the Holy Spirit. A three in one, one in three blend. This is unbiblical rubbish borrowed from paganism. No wonder it does not provide answers to your questions.

The word trinity is not found in scripture and I prefer not to use it. In the old testament we have the word “Elohiym” meaning God in the plurality or Gods. The new testament uses words like Godhead and Deity. (Theos Theios, Theiotes,)

The Bible Godhead consist of The Father, Son and the Holy Ghost. Each is a separate divine Person and each the Eternal God. The new testament Greek word for God “Theos”  sometime refers individually to the Father, Son and Holy Spirit: and at other times refers to the Godhead. We must read scripture in its context to know Who it refers to.

Mat 28:19  Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: /I]

Your question

So when Jesus cries out “My God My God why have you forsaken me”….how is it possible that God forsook God?

With the Catholic “trinity” it does not make sense, but with the Bible Godhead  then it makes perfect sense. At the cross God withdrew His presence from Christ because of our sins.

2Co 5:21  For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

This was the first time in eternity that Christ was separated from God. This started in Gethsemane; hence His suffering.

Isa 59:2  But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

It was our  sins placed on the spotless Lamb of God that separated Christ from God.

Q2.  Your comments

If Jesus was 100% God and 100% man how could He sin? God cannot be tempted to sin. Jesus had to have the possibility of sinning or else he could not be a faithful High Priest able to sympathize with our weakness.

There has on this forum been much confusion between Christ’s mission or “office” as Messiah and that of His substance which is The Eternal God. With respect to Matt Slick I’d rather follow what the Bible teaches.

When Christ was to leave heaven and was to take the form of a man He did not cease to be God. He simply put aside His own divine power and was dependent on God for power. This makes Him our example to follow because we too are to depend totally on God.

Heb 2:14  Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

He had to overcome Satan while living as a man. Christ did not come to earth to show what a God can do, but what  man can do when he depends on God for power. He succeeded where Adam failed.

Heb 2:16  For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
Heb 2:17  Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
Heb 2:18  For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

Heb 2:9  But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

A human body was fashioned for Christ. A body which had sinful propensities just like ours. A body less than what Adam had,  weakened by the curse of sin.

Rom 8:3  For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Christ condemned sin in the flesh. He resisted sin. Don’t forget that He laid aside His divine power and did not use it for His own benefit, overcoming temptation relying on God for power. We too can resist temptation if we rely on God for power. Christ was our example.

Heb 2:17  Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
Heb 2:18  For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

Luk 4:2  (Jesus)  Being forty days tempted of the devil.
Luk 4:12  And Jesus answering said unto him, It is said, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.

Who was being tempted here? Jesus;    The Lord thy God.

1Ti 3:16  And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Isa 9:6  For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Q.3 Your comments

There are many instances in the scripture where Jesus calls the Father..His God and says the Father is greater than I. I always thought this was in reference to Jesus being a Man on earth. But you also have accounts of Jesus calling the Father His God after the resurection. He calls the Father His God when speaking to Mary and again in Revelations. (Rev 3:12) Why is Jesus still calling the Father His God? There is also a passage that says the head of Jesus is God. (1 Cor 11:3)

In many of these instances Jesus was encumbered with humanity or within the context of Him being the  Messiah.  Don’t forget that Christ is still ministering for us right now as our High Priest in the heavenly sanctuary.  So His mission is not yet over.

Even within the Godhead each Divine Person recognise and have reverence for the other as God.

Heb 1:8  But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

Q.4 Your comments

In John 5:26 Jesus says:
26 For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself,

This is also in the context of Christ mission as Messiah. Within the Godhead a plan was made for the salvation of man. It is evident that each divine  Person within the Godhead takes on a different office or role. It is a pity that we too cannot learn to work together and to serve each other.

Q.5 Your comments

John 6:58 says:
57 As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me.

This also is in the context of Christ’s mission as Messiah. I have already covered this.

sscott. The catholic trinity concept is clearly wrong, however most of the other Christian churches are teaching the Bible Godhead which is truth. However it is unfortunate that they use the word “trinity” which sometimes confuses theirs with the Catholic teaching.

Beware of the false teachers here on this forum; they will lead you astray.

Christ describes them well.

Mat 23:24  Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.

Col 2:8  Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

Col 2:9  For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
Col 2:10  And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

They are wilfully blind.

2 Timothy 4:3   For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;  
 4:4   And they shall turn away [their] ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.    

sscott. I hope that I have addressed all of your concerns.