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georg
you right that s what i refer to ,i guess since CA is catholic ,this would not come to his mind,
almost 1200 years of abuse,crimes,deceit,lies,accumulation of earthly wealth(Satan gift)without love of God.
Quote (Elizabeth @ Feb. 16 2010,23:17) Quote (CatholicApologist @ Feb. 16 2010,09:01) Quote (Elizabeth @ Feb. 16 2010,08:27) Quote (CatholicApologist @ Feb. 16 2010,03:23) Elizabeth,Feb. wrote:Hi Georg,
Let's start with the first point you take issue with.
2. Tradition can't be separated from the Bible; that would be like trying to separate hydrogen atoms from a water molecule.
You say – “On 2. Jesus said, it is tradition that keeps us from understanding truth, Mat. 15:9”
Go read Mat. 15:9. Jesus is speaking of the “traditions of MEN”
You must have taken a scissors and cut 2 Thess. 2:15 out of your Bible:
“Therefore, brethren, stand fast; and hold the traditions which you have learned, whether by word, or by our epistle.”
You are commanded to hold to the holy traditions.
Repent and believe the gospel.
CALook again, Paul is talking about what he has taught them or written to them, “whether by word, OR BY OUR EPISTLE”.
Mat 15:1 ¶ Then came to Jesus scribes and Pharisees, which were of Jerusalem, saying,
Mat 15:2 Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread.
Mat 15:3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?This is what Mat. 15:9 is referring to.
Apparently you agree with me on the rest.
Georg
Georg,Didn't think I'd see the day when you would agree with the Church (again…why did you apostasize?).
You wrote:
“Look again, Paul is talking about what he has taught them or written to them, “whether by word, OR BY OUR EPISTLE”.”
Alright…we're making progress.
So you are agreeing that Paul didn't write EVERYTHING down in Scripture. Some things he handed on “BY WORD” only. Hmmm….
So I guess I want to know which Sacred Oral Traditions you currently hold? How do you substantiate their authenticity as coming through the apostles down to the present day?
No CAWe were talking about “tradition”, lets not change the subject.
Georg
Excuse me? TRADITION is exactly what we are talking about. You are avoiding the clear meaning of 2 Thess. 2:15:“traditions…by word (oral tradition)…by epistle (written tradition)”
So which oral traditions of Paul that WERE NOT WRITTEN DOWN do you follow?
Please stop dodging the question…
CA
what you think Paul is saying ?
2Th 2:15 So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.
2Th 2:16 May our Lord Jesus Christ himself and God our Father, who loved us and by his grace gave us eternal encouragement and good hope,Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 17 2010,02:54) CA were do you see “tradition”?
I don't know what modern paraphrase you used. But here are some versions you might recognize:English Standard Version (©2001)
So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter.New American Standard Bible (©1995)
So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from us.International Standard Version (©2008)
So then, brothers, stand firm, and cling to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by our letter.GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
Then, brothers and sisters, firmly hold on to the traditions we taught you either when we spoke to you or in our letter.King James Bible
Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.American King James Version
Therefore, brothers, stand fast, and hold the traditions which you have been taught, whether by word, or our letter.American Standard Version
So then, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye were taught, whether by word, or by epistle of ours.Douay-Rheims Bible
Therefore, brethren, stand fast; and hold the traditions which you have learned, whether by word, or by our epistle.English Revised Version
So then, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye were taught, whether by word, or by epistle of ours.Webster's Bible Translation
Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.World English Bible
So then, brothers, stand firm, and hold the traditions which you were taught by us, whether by word, or by letter.The word is TRADITIONS
Quote (CatholicApologist @ Feb. 17 2010,02:50) Quote (Elizabeth @ Feb. 16 2010,23:17) Quote (CatholicApologist @ Feb. 16 2010,09:01) Quote (Elizabeth @ Feb. 16 2010,08:27) Quote (CatholicApologist @ Feb. 16 2010,03:23) Elizabeth,Feb. wrote:Hi Georg,
Let's start with the first point you take issue with.
2. Tradition can't be separated from the Bible; that would be like trying to separate hydrogen atoms from a water molecule.
You say – “On 2. Jesus said, it is tradition that keeps us from understanding truth, Mat. 15:9”
Go read Mat. 15:9. Jesus is speaking of the “traditions of MEN”
You must have taken a scissors and cut 2 Thess. 2:15 out of your Bible:
“Therefore, brethren, stand fast; and hold the traditions which you have learned, whether by word, or by our epistle.”
You are commanded to hold to the holy traditions.
Repent and believe the gospel.
CALook again, Paul is talking about what he has taught them or written to them, “whether by word, OR BY OUR EPISTLE”.
Mat 15:1 ¶ Then came to Jesus scribes and Pharisees, which were of Jerusalem, saying,
Mat 15:2 Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread.
Mat 15:3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?This is what Mat. 15:9 is referring to.
Apparently you agree with me on the rest.
Georg
Georg,Didn't think I'd see the day when you would agree with the Church (again…why did you apostasize?).
You wrote:
“Look again, Paul is talking about what he has taught them or written to them, “whether by word, OR BY OUR EPISTLE”.”
Alright…we're making progress.
So you are agreeing that Paul didn't write EVERYTHING down in Scripture. Some things he handed on “BY WORD” only. Hmmm….
So I guess I want to know which Sacred Oral Traditions you currently hold? How do you substantiate their authenticity as coming through the apostles down to the present day?
No CAWe were talking about “tradition”, lets not change the subject.
Georg
Excuse me? TRADITION is exactly what we are talking about. You are avoiding the clear meaning of 2 Thess. 2:15:“traditions…by word (oral tradition)…by epistle (written tradition)”
So which oral traditions of Paul that WERE NOT WRITTEN DOWN do you follow?
Please stop dodging the question…
CAI can tell you're getting angry, and you can't see what I did say, here it is again.
“””Look again, Paul is talking about what he has taught them or written to them, “whether by word, OR BY OUR EPISTLE”.”””
This is in direct context to 2 Thes. 2:15, and it relates to what Paul had received by revelation from Christ; so how old do you think his tradition was?
Georg
Quote (Elizabeth @ Feb. 17 2010,03:28) CatholicApologist,Feb. wrote:[quote=Elizabeth,Feb. 16 2010,23:17]
CatholicApologist,Feb. wrote:[quote=Elizabeth,Feb. 16 2010,08:27]
CatholicApologist,Feb. wrote:[quote=Elizabeth,Feb. 15 2010,23:28]
I can tell you're getting angry, and you can't see what I did say, here it is again.“””Look again, Paul is talking about what he has taught them or written to them, “whether by word, OR BY OUR EPISTLE”.”””
This is in direct context to 2 Thes. 2:15, and it relates to what Paul had received by revelation from Christ; so how old do you think his tradition was?
Georg
You must not be very perceptive. I am not angry at all.St. Paul was passing on Traditions received from Christ. So speaking in terms of time, they were not very old then…but they are ancient today. This was the start of holy tradition.
So I think you agree on this point. St. Paul “taught” things that did not get written down. We also know that we do not have all of St. Paul's epistles today either.
Hmm…
It's gotta make you think, eh?
Hi CA,
The teaching work of God is through the anointed men of God.
Their fruit identifies them.Political power, wars, torture and paedophilia are not the fruits of the Spirit of God in men.
Mystery babylon would falsely claim to present the hidden truths but really this is gnosticism.
CA
hi this is your question;I don't know what modern paraphrase you used. But here are some versions you might recognize:i have a question for you;was the word tradition invented after 1995 and if not
why is it not used in the other 100 translations???
men are wicket do anything for glory and money.Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 17 2010,05:47) CA
hi this is your question;I don't know what modern paraphrase you used. But here are some versions you might recognize:i have a question for you;was the word tradition invented after 1995 and if not
why is it not used in the other 100 translations???
men are wicket do anything for glory and money.
What are you talking about? Did you notice these two from the 1600's:King James Bible
Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.Douay-Rheims Bible
Therefore, brethren, stand fast; and hold the traditions which you have learned, whether by word, or by our epistle.I'm not going to apologize for not including your ridiculously corrupt and silly NWT.
The NT Greek does not contain the Tetragrammaton, buy you folks manage to guess it into the text….
Sorry if I find it hard to take you seriously
CA
it does not matter to me if you take me seriously or not ,this is your choice,you probably do the same thing with some of the scriptures.
i mean what i say and i say what i mean,and i can stand with scriptures in what i say, can you??you know that you have to confirm to me if the word tradition ad the same meaning in those days than it has today,i speak other language and wen i go back in history words meaning have changed in that language.
but to keep it simple could you tell me what you mean in the word :tradition”
The word tradition comes from the Latin traditionem, acc. of traditio which means “handing over, passing on”, and is used in a number of ways in the English language:
Beliefs or customs taught by one generation to the next, often orally. For example, we can speak of the tradition of sending birth announcements.
A set of customs or practices. For example, we can speak of Christmas traditions.
A broad religious movement made up of religious denominations or church bodies that have a common history, customs, culture, and, to some extent, body of teachings. For example, one can speak of Islam's Sufi tradition or Christianity's Lutheran tradition.i agree with the original view;do you?
Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 17 2010,06:09) CA
it does not matter to me if you take me seriously or not ,this is your choice,you probably do the same thing with some of the scriptures.
i mean what i say and i say what i mean,and i can stand with scriptures in what i say, can you??you know that you have to confirm to me if the word tradition ad the same meaning in those days than it has today,i speak other language and wen i go back in history words meaning have changed in that language.
but to keep it simple could you tell me what you mean in the word :tradition”
The word tradition comes from the Latin traditionem, acc. of traditio which means “handing over, passing on”, and is used in a number of ways in the English language:
Beliefs or customs taught by one generation to the next, often orally. For example, we can speak of the tradition of sending birth announcements.
A set of customs or practices. For example, we can speak of Christmas traditions.
A broad religious movement made up of religious denominations or church bodies that have a common history, customs, culture, and, to some extent, body of teachings. For example, one can speak of Islam's Sufi tradition or Christianity's Lutheran tradition.i agree with the original view;do you?
Yes. I believe the oral “traditions” were passed on.If you believe this, then who “passed on” in a successive line the teachings of your cult?
Who passed on the teachings of Charles Taze Russell?
Who passed on the the teaching of soul annihilation?
Who passed on the idea the Jesus was merely an angel?
Who passed on the idea that God is not a Trinity?
Who passed on being baptized into the “spirit of the organization”?
Who passed on the idea the the Holy Spirit is merely a “force”?
Who passed on the idea that if we set a date for the end of the world and it DOESN'T HAPPEN, we can just set another one?
Hi CA,
Attacking other cults does not give any credibility to your own.
After all catholicism is the biggest one.CA
Yes. I believe the oral “traditions” were passed on.
If you believe this, then who “passed on” in a successive line the teachings of your cult?
i stop at the scriptures ,bible
Who passed on the teachings of Charles Taze Russell?
i do not believe C,T Russell i am not a JW
Who passed on the the teaching of soul annihilation?
i do not believe that so i do not forwarded.
Who passed on the idea the Jesus was merely an angel?
i do not believe that,
Who passed on the idea that God is not a Trinity?
this i absolutely do not believe (trinity)it is not in the bible)
Who passed on being baptized into the “spirit of the organization”?
i do not believe in men, futile organisations
Who passed on the idea the the Holy Spirit is merely a “force”?
i do believe that God is spirit and the most powerful power known in all creation,and so his spirit can use that power.
Who passed on the idea that if we set a date for the end of the world and it DOESN'T HAPPEN, we can just set another
i do not believe in setting dates it is not scriptural.
Quote (CatholicApologist @ Feb. 17 2010,03:37) Quote (Elizabeth @ Feb. 17 2010,03:28) CatholicApologist,Feb. wrote:[quote=Elizabeth,Feb. 16 2010,23:17]
CatholicApologist,Feb. wrote:[quote=Elizabeth,Feb. 16 2010,08:27]
CatholicApologist,Feb. wrote:[quote=Elizabeth,Feb. 15 2010,23:28]
I can tell you're getting angry, and you can't see what I did say, here it is again.“””Look again, Paul is talking about what he has taught them or written to them, “whether by word, OR BY OUR EPISTLE”.”””
This is in direct context to 2 Thes. 2:15, and it relates to what Paul had received by revelation from Christ; so how old do you think his tradition was?
Georg
You must not be very perceptive. I am not angry at all.St. Paul was passing on Traditions received from Christ. So speaking in terms of time, they were not very old then…but they are ancient today. This was the start of holy tradition.
So I think you agree on this point. St. Paul “taught” things that did not get written down. We also know that we do not have all of St. Paul's epistles today either.
Hmm…
It's gotta make you think, eh?
CAIf you don't know what all Paul did not write down, how do you know what that was?
And just what is it that we believe today, that Paul didn't say?Georg
Quote (Elizabeth @ Feb. 18 2010,15:00) Quote (CatholicApologist @ Feb. 17 2010,03:37) Quote (Elizabeth @ Feb. 17 2010,03:28) CatholicApologist,Feb. wrote:[quote=Elizabeth,Feb. 16 2010,23:17]
CatholicApologist,Feb. wrote:[quote=Elizabeth,Feb. 16 2010,08:27]
CatholicApologist,Feb. wrote:[quote=Elizabeth,Feb. 15 2010,23:28]
I can tell you're getting angry, and you can't see what I did say, here it is again.“””Look again, Paul is talking about what he has taught them or written to them, “whether by word, OR BY OUR EPISTLE”.”””
This is in direct context to 2 Thes. 2:15, and it relates to what Paul had received by revelation from Christ; so how old do you think his tradition was?
Georg
You must not be very perceptive. I am not angry at all.St. Paul was passing on Traditions received from Christ. So speaking in terms of time, they were not very old then…but they are ancient today. This was the start of holy tradition.
So I think you agree on this point. St. Paul “taught” things that did not get written down. We also know that we do not have all of St. Paul's epistles today either.
Hmm…
It's gotta make you think, eh?
CAIf you don't know what all Paul did not write down, how do you know what that was?
And just what is it that we believe today, that Paul didn't say?Georg
You should know very well that the Sacred Liturgy has its roots in the apostles. The law of prayer is the law of belief.The Oral Tradition provides a living witness to the Written Tradition. Besides, the fathers are the primary interpreters of Scripture. It amazes me that you would trust your own interpretation apart from that of the very men who KNEW the apostles and heard their oral teaching, received their instruction and the laying on of hands. Amazing.
Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 18 2010,08:13) CA Yes. I believe the oral “traditions” were passed on.
If you believe this, then who “passed on” in a successive line the teachings of your cult?
i stop at the scriptures ,bible
Who passed on the teachings of Charles Taze Russell?
i do not believe C,T Russell i am not a JW
Who passed on the the teaching of soul annihilation?
i do not believe that so i do not forwarded.
Who passed on the idea the Jesus was merely an angel?
i do not believe that,
Who passed on the idea that God is not a Trinity?
this i absolutely do not believe (trinity)it is not in the bible)
Who passed on being baptized into the “spirit of the organization”?
i do not believe in men, futile organisations
Who passed on the idea the the Holy Spirit is merely a “force”?
i do believe that God is spirit and the most powerful power known in all creation,and so his spirit can use that power.
Who passed on the idea that if we set a date for the end of the world and it DOESN'T HAPPEN, we can just set another
i do not believe in setting dates it is not scriptural.
I apologize. I thought you were JW. Mistake.So let me ask you this.
Show me ONE Scripture verse that explicitly says that for something to be true it MUST be explicitly taught in the Bible?
Just one…
Quote (CatholicApologist @ Feb. 18 2010,16:46) Quote (Elizabeth @ Feb. 18 2010,15:00) Quote (CatholicApologist @ Feb. 17 2010,03:37) Quote (Elizabeth @ Feb. 17 2010,03:28) CatholicApologist,Feb. wrote:[quote=Elizabeth,Feb. 16 2010,23:17]
CatholicApologist,Feb. wrote:[quote=Elizabeth,Feb. 16 2010,08:27]
CatholicApologist,Feb. wrote:[quote=Elizabeth,Feb. 15 2010,23:28]
I can tell you're getting angry, and you can't see what I did say, here it is again.“””Look again, Paul is talking about what he has taught them or written to them, “whether by word, OR BY OUR EPISTLE”.”””
This is in direct context to 2 Thes. 2:15, and it relates to what Paul had received by revelation from Christ; so how old do you think his tradition was?
Georg
You must not be very perceptive. I am not angry at all.St. Paul was passing on Traditions received from Christ. So speaking in terms of time, they were not very old then…but they are ancient today. This was the start of holy tradition.
So I think you agree on this point. St. Paul “taught” things that did not get written down. We also know that we do not have all of St. Paul's epistles today either.
Hmm…
It's gotta make you think, eh?
CAIf you don't know what all Paul did not write down, how do you know what that was?
And just what is it that we believe today, that Paul didn't say?Georg
You should know very well that the Sacred Liturgy has its roots in the apostles. The law of prayer is the law of belief.The Oral Tradition provides a living witness to the Written Tradition. Besides, the fathers are the primary interpreters of Scripture. It amazes me that you would trust your own interpretation apart from that of the very men who KNEW the apostles and heard their oral teaching, received their instruction and the laying on of hands. Amazing.
CA
just how does that answer my question?You talk about the”oral” tradition, I want to know what they are? and how do you know what the were? if they are not written down, how do you know?
who are “the very men that knew the apostles”? any one you know?Georg
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