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Quote (journey42 @ April 15 2012,12:43) Quote (bodhitharta @ April 15 2012,03:05) Quote (journey42 @ April 15 2012,02:15) Quote (bodhitharta @ April 13 2012,03:12) Quote (journey42 @ April 12 2012,19:13) Hi Bodhitharti I have a question.
How does a western woman get drawn into the Muslim religion? Who goes out and convinces her that the Muslim religion is the one to follow? Is it the women, or the men that bring in followers?
Muslims don't seek to convert others through a certain method usually a person asks tem a question so for instance a woman well covered may be asked by a western woman why she does it or the purpose for it and this leads them to want to know more. Most women think a woman with a headscarf on is somehow being opressed but when the response is similar to explaining that a woman is like a special Jewel not for general display it becomes a beautiful thing.Most women who do not understand the importance of dressing in a very conservative fashion don't realize the harm done to those around them. Men can hardly resist a beautiful women showing here figure and form openly and that's why we are all so obsessed with pornography and nudity in general if women felt to cover up is essential except when in your home we would have a lot less adultery, fornication and rape.
Hi BodithartaAm I allowed to greet you by name in your religion?
Thank you for your answer. I appreciate that.
Jesus is our example. That's who we christians believe in as you know. We believe every word that he spoke was God speaking through him, and that he was not only the Son of God, but our example, without fault.
Jesus spoke to women. His very special friend was Mary Magdalene, whom he delivered. They would of talked.and this happened as well
Luke 7:37 And behold, a woman in the city, which was a sinner, when she knew that Jesus sat at meat in the Pharisee's house, brought an alabaster box of ointment.
Luke 7:38 And stood at his feet behind him weeping, and began to was his feet with tears, and did wipe them with the hairs of her head, and kissed his feet, and anointed them with the ointment.
Then the Pharisee when he saw it, spoke to himself and said if this man were a prophet, he would of known who and what manner of woman this is that touches him, for she is a sinner.
Luke 7:44 And he turned to the woman, and said unto Simon, Seest thou this woman? I entered into thine house, thou gavest me no water for my feet: but she hath washed my feet with tears, and wiped them with the hairs of her head.
Luke 7:45 Thou gavest me no kiss: but this woman, since the time I came in, hath not ceased to kiss my feet.
Luke 7:46 My head with oil thou didst not anoint: but this woman hath anointed my feet with ointment.
Luke 7:47 Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loves little.
Now another example
John 4:7 There cometh a woman of Samaria to draw water: Jesus saith unto her, Give me to drinkJohn 4:8 (For his disciples were gone away unto the city to buy meat)
in other words, he was alone with the womanJohn 4:9 Then saith the woman of Samaria unto him, How is it that thou, being a Jew, askest drink of me, which am a woman of Samaria? for the Jews have no dealings with the Samaritans.
John 4:10 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou newest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink: thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.
and so the story goesMy point is….that if Jesus, the Son of God, a man in the flesh before his resurrection, can have a woman wash his feet with her tears, and dry them with her hair, and he also speaks to another woman at the well without anyone else present, then it must be ok, for a man to speak with a woman. Why would Islam be above that? above Christ? More holier than Christ? I have these questions.
For it was a man that introduced me to the Holy Scriptures, to find my Lord, and till this day, I have not come across a woman who believes with all her heart to share with me knowledge regarding the scriptures. (for I am not a church goer) So if it wasn't for this man, that God chose to guide me to Christ, then I would still be in darkness. I only have brothers, not sisters, and they have do not act untoward to me, for our minds are set on spiritual matters. Truth. And Christ is our example, and showed us it was ok, for we are brothers and sisters if we come into the fold, and if not, then we still get a chance to make a choice. We are allowed to converse. Not everything is about sex and lust. Not all minds think that way, but if a woman is barely covered, then I understand your point, but your women are fully covered, and still can't speak to a man without her husband, or father present. How do men under Islam find wives?
Thanks for the question.This is more about culture than religion I am an American Muslim I speak to woman all the time such as at stores and other places like the gym.
This type of avoiding direct contact with the opposite sex is not just in Islam I recall wanting to date this girl from Puerto Rico and she was Christian and at the time I was also labeled as such and her family would not let me speak to her without a chaparon and if we wanted to go somewhere someone would have to come with us.
So many cultures are very strict with monitoring who women and even men are allowed to interact with and it is based on avoiding mischief. There have been many difficulties in Iraq or Afghanistan where soldiers fall in love with these women but they have families at home or they will be leaving after their tour and what's left behind is major problems maybe the girl gets pregnant or is known to have had this affair it is then terrible for her.
This happens all over in certain black communities you can't just start talking to a girl her brothers if she has any will object and the Father or Mother may yell at you especially years ago and you can see the more relaxed people became the more premarital sex and teen pregnacies occurred across all races in America.
The point is this is not an Islam invention but it may be its last stronghold for an ever increasing promiscuous society. Today when I meet a young woman and start talking to her about Islam I will usually direct her to my wife if she is serious remember the bible says
1 Thessalonians 5:22
King James Version (KJV)
22Abstain from all appearance of evil.
So we should avoid scenes that
create gossip and such. I remember in High School if a girl even spoke to a lot of guys and did alittle flirting she would often be thought of as a slut only to find out later she was a virgin.
Hi BdOK thankyou. I am happy to hear that about you.
In christianity there are different groups that have different beliefs as you know. So, like you, we can't be all put into one basket. I have never fit in with any of these mainstream christian groups. I am an outsider, because I do not agree with their traditions or doctrine. If you correct them, using scriptures they lash out, or disappear not addressing the reply. You can see them by their fruits. This is why I eagerly away our Lord's return, so that truth can be established on this earth, and all the bickering can stop, and the proud ones can be humbled.
I have had very interesting discussions with you. Thank you for conversing.
You are very welcome and what you said at the end is exactly what will occur God will explain everything and those who have strived to put their best foot forward with what they were given will get the best of rewards and those who have abused what they have been given will be the losers.There are people in every denomination or religion that have drawn close to God and God has drawn close to them, they have submitted themselves to God with all their heart, soul and mind these are those who are pure in faith. They don't have to know every single thing because they know the greatest thing of All is to Trust God and Have Faith, believing His ways are Higher than yours, He created you , you didn't create Him. So Praise God always and you cannot go wrong.
Have you ever seen a loving child who seems to know nothing but will cling to his parent as if the only thing he needs to know is his parent is Everything to him be therefore likewise with God.
Quote (Wakeup @ April 15 2012,00:24) Quote (Ed J @ April 14 2012,11:18) Quote (Wakeup @ April 14 2012,09:54) Quote (Ed J @ April 14 2012,06:14) Quote (Wakeup @ April 14 2012,05:16) Hi Bodhitharta. I follow the scriptures only,and there is no record of Jesus addressing mary as mother.
wakeup.
Hi Wakeup,When Jesus was asked: “what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?”
Jesus said: “Honor thy father and mother.” (Mark 10:19)
…do YOU think Jesus was excluding himself?God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
EDJ.Jesus called David lord; so how can David be the lords father.
It is mary that ought to honor Jesus. Before mary was jesus is.wakeup.
Hi Wakeup,You remind me of Jammin, he dosn't answer my questions either.
(Link to the Jammin thread) (Link to the Wakeup thread)You answered a different question, one that I didn't ask?
I didn't ask if David was Jesus' father?
Nor did I ask if Mary ought to honor Jesus?What I instead asked is:
Q#1…do YOU think Jesus was excluding himself
when he said one of the requirements for a man to inherit eternal life
was for them to honor their father AND THEIR MOTHER?Now will you please answer the question that I asked?
Along with a second question I now have based on your dodging the first question!Q#2 Are YOU suggesting that Jesus was(?) not a man?
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
EDj.What you are implying is, that Jesus could not have honoured his mother if he did not call her mother.
Jesus called her -woman-.
The scriptures are written, as if it contradict itself;but this is done for the wicked,so they can not understand.
But the true seekers,will understand,and can find no contradictions.This should be so obvious to the true seekers,since Jesus was the word which is from everlasting,should not call mary;mother, for the word was the creator of mary.
So is the word, the creator of david.Jesus honours all his bretheren and sisters; he never dishonoured any body.We need to honour Jesus too.
Jesus told them to honour their father and mother(not worship).It is obvious that jesus must give an example by honouring mary,and joseph and all.The flesh came out of mary; but at the same time that flesh was spirit before it became flesh.And that spirit is from everlasting.Not many can put the finger on this mystery.
To you it has not been been revealed yet.wakeup.
So you believe he exempted himself from that verse then, right?Hi Bod,
You stated earlier in this thread that the Quaran was given to make the bible scriptures clearer.
Here is an interesting argument against that claim i once came across and kept….The Bible and the Qur'an are often compared to each other when Christians and Muslims are discussing issues. They are typically compared in the following ways:
Preservation of text
Formation of canon
Teaching about Jesus, women, warfare, etc.
Scientific accuracy
ContradictionsThis type of comparison is something that I myself have done in the past. However, it is actually inaccurate and misleading to compare the Bible to the Qur'an. There are two reasons for this.
Reason 1. The Context of the Bible and Qur'an
The Qur'an revolves and evolves around Muhammad's life. Muhammad recited the words of the Qur'an in response to various situations in his life, but what these situations were is not recorded in the Qur'an. That is, the Qur'an does not provide its own context or chronology. Knowing the correct context and chronology is essential to understand the Qur'an. But to know this context and chronology you must go outside of the Qur'an to the Islamic traditions – books like the Hadith or Sira literature. These books provide the context for the Qur'an. The Islamic scholar Habib Ur Rahman Azami clearly states the Qur'an's dependence upon the Hadith and Sira.
(I)t is almost impossible to understand or explain the meaning of a large number of Qur'anic verses if the Traditions are rejected as useless and inauthentic. (Habib Ur Rahman Azami, The Sunnah in Islam, pp. 29-31.)
The Bible, however, is very different. It provides its own context and chronology. Its revelation begins with creation and tells the story of God, the world, his people, the prophets and the Messiah, right through to the age of the resurrection. When the Bible gives various commands or announces the gospel it does so within a context that it itself has revealed. Thus, to understand the Bible you only need the Bible. In fact, many of the stories which are only briefly retold in the Qur'an are told in full in the Bible. The Bible is self-sufficient, as the word of God should be. Therefore to compare the Bible to the Qur'an alone is misleading and inaccurate.
Reason 2. Practices and Beliefs
The Qur'an does not contain most of the basic practices or many of the beliefs of Islam.
The Sunnah (the example of Muhammad) is the crucial complement to the Koran; so much so, that there are in fact isolated instances where, in fact, the Sunnah appears to prevail over the Koran as, for example, when the Koran refers to three daily prayers (24:58, 11:116, 17:78-79, 20:130, 30:17-18), but the Sunnah sets five. On the other hand, there are cases from the earliest days of Islam of universal practices which appear to contradict express Sunnah. Moreover, the Koran does not make explicit all of its commands; not even all those which are fundamental. Thus it enjoins prayer, but not how it is to be performed: the form of canonical prayer (salah) is based entirely on Sunnah. (Cyril Glassé, “Sunnah”, The Concise Encyclopedia of Islam, pp. 381-382)
(T)he obligatory injunction to establish Salah (regular, formal worship) was revealed in the Qur’an as were some of the elements of Salah (like Qiyam, Ruku`, Sujud and Qira’ah). But the actual manner of offering Salah and the order in which the various acts connected with it were to be performed, were not described in the Qur’an. … Similarly the Hajj (pilgrimage to Mecca) was prescribed as a religious duty in the Qur'an but its method and formalities were not defined. The Prophet showed the correct way by performing the Hajj himself. (Habib Ur Rahman Azami, pp. 10-11)
Narrated Al-Irbad ibn Sariyah as-Sulami: … They gathered and the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) led them in prayer, stood up and said: Does any of you, while reclining on his couch, imagine that Allah has prohibited only that which is to be found in this Qur'an? By Allah, I have preached, commanded and prohibited various matters as numerous as that which is found in the Qur'an, or more numerous. … (Abu-Dawud: bk. 19, no. 3044, Hasan)
Islamic Shariah is complete only with recourse to both the Qur'an and the Sunnah. (Habib Ur Rahman Azami, p. 5)
How, when and what to pray, what to do on Hajj, circumcision, the signs of the hour, the story of Hagar, in fact most of the essential Islamic practices and beliefs come from the Sunnah (practices) of Muhammad. The Sunnah is essential to Islam but it does not come from the Qur'an but the Hadith and Sira. Again, this is not the case with the Bible. The Bible has everything a Christian needs. The Bible fully declares what God has done to save us and bring glory to himself and how we are to live. It is the basis for our wisdom and defines our liberty. Therefore to compare the Bible to the Qur'an alone is misleading and inaccurate.
Why is the Bible so complete?
The Bible is complete because it contains the Torah, the law of Moses, the Psalms of David, the Wisdom of Solomon, the prophetic books of Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Hosea, Joel, Amos, Obadiah, Jonah, Micah, Nahum, Habakkuk, Zephaniah, Haggai, Zechariah and Malachi. It has the gospel of Jesus from Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, and the writings of the apostles of the Messiah.
The Bible
Law of Moses
(Torah) The Prophets
(an-anbeea') The Psalms
(Zabur) The Gospel
(Injeel)Christians believe all the prophets and make no distinction between them, therefore, they read all of the prophets, and because they read all of the prophets they lack nothing.
A More Accurate Comparison
It should be clear now that to compare the Bible to the Qur'an is irrelevant because while the Bible is the foundation of Christianity, the Qur'an is not the foundation of Islam, rather Islam is founded on the Qur'an, Hadith and Sira. If you want an honest and accurate comparison between the books of Christianity and Islam then you must compare the essential books of both religions.
Some facts on the Hadith. The word “hadith” means an account or news about something. A hadith can vary in length from a sentence to a full page. In Islam the main subject of the Hadith is what Muhammad did and said, that is, the Hadith contain the Sunnah. There are many large collections of Hadith. Prof. Masud-ul-Hasan explains what the main collections are:
Muslim The collection of hadith by Imam Muslim. 8 volumes in the English/Arabic translation.
Al-Bukhari The collection of hadith by Imam Bukhari. 9 volumes in the English/Arabic translation.The recognised collection of Hadith on the “Musannaf”[1] pattern are the collections of:
Al-Bukhari (d. 870 C.E.) [A collection of 7658 hadiths (ahadith).]
Muslim (d. 875 C.E.) [A collection of 7748 hadiths.]
Abu Daud (d. 875 C.E.) [A collection of 5276 hadiths.]
Al-Tirmizi (d. 892 C.E.) [A collection of 4415 hadiths.]
Al-Nasai (d. 915 C.E.) [A collection of 5776 hadiths.]
Ibn Maja (d. 886 C.E.) [A collection of 4485 hadiths.]… The collections of Al-Bukhari and Muslim rank high and are known as “Al-Sahihain” i.e. authentic and authoritative.
The best known collection on the “Musnad”[2] pattern is the collection of Ahmad ibn Hanbal (d. 855 C.E.).
The Shia works on “Hadith”, do not merely refer to what the Holy Prophet said or did, they also refer to what the Shia Imams said or did. The Shia works on Hadith are the collections of:
Muhammad ibn Yakub Al-Kulluni (d. 939 C.E.)
Muhammad Al-Hummi (d. 991 C.E.)
Tahir Al-Sharif Al-Murtaza (d. 1004 C.E.)
Muhammad Al-Tusi (d. 1067 C.E.) (Prof. Masud-ul-Hasan, History of Islam, vol. 1, p. 613)There is also the important colle
ction of the Muwatta of Malik.The Hadith are part of the Islamic canon, yet Sunni and Shia disagree dramatically over which Hadith to accept. This means that within Islam there are very different canons that are used.
Ibn Sa'd Ibn Sa'ad, Kitab Al-Tabaqat Al-Kabir
Ibn Ishaq Ibn Ishaq, Sirat Rasul Allah translated as 'The Life of Muhammad'Some facts on the Sira. The Sira are the biographies of Muhammad's life. These provide the context and chronology of his life, and thus the context and chronology of the Qur'an. The two oldest Sira are:
Muhammad ibn Ishaq (d. 773 C.E.) via ibn Hisham's (d. 840 C.E.) recension, Sirat Rasul Allah. (English translation 798 pages[3].)
Muhammad ibn Sa'd (d. 852 C.E.), Kitab al-Tabaqat al-Kabir, (English translation, 1097 pages[4].)As you can read and see, there are a lot of other essential books in Islam than just the Qur'an, and they are all much bigger than the Qur'an. Both Bukhari and Muslim contain more hadiths than the Qur'an's 6236 verses. I have been told by an ex-Muslim Islamic scholar that Islam is 10% Quran and 90% traditions (Hadith and Sira). The Quran is like the frame of a picture. It sets some boundaries, but the details of the picture are provided by the traditions.
Some Application
1. Do not think that the Qur'an and Bible are basically the same. The Bible contains the writings of many prophets from Moses to Jesus. It provides all its own context and is sufficient for Christian belief and practice. The Qur'an however, only has what Muhammad, one man, recited. It does not provide the context for what it says or have the essential practices of Islam; these come from other Islamic books.
2. If Christians and Muslims want to compare books on any subject then the Hadith and Sira must be included in this comparison for it to be accurate and meaningful. The Hadith and Sira are part of the Islamic canon as much as the Qur'an is. If you see an Islamic leader comparing the Bible to just the Qur'an then have the courage to explain why this is inadequate and misleading.
3. In the media, Islamic leaders, and others, often say that certain practices, like female circumcision, are not authentic Islam because they are not in the Qur'an. However, statements like these are either ill-informed or deliberately misleading because authentic Islam is not based on the Qur'an but on the Qur'an and Sunnah. It is true that the Qur'an does not mention male or female circumcision, but this does not stop circumcision from being an authentic Islamic practice because it comes from the Sunnah.
4. Islam is a complex religion because it is based on so many books, each of which have their own method of study and critical issues. It is very difficult, if not impossible, for most Muslims to be familiar with all these essential books. This means that Muslims must depend upon their scholars to make the complex simple. However, it is possible for a Christian to read and be familiar with the whole Bible. When we invite you to become a Christian we are only asking you to accept the Bible.
Quote (bodhitharta @ April 14 2012,08:10) Devolution,April wrote:Quote Correct. I never claimed otherwise nor even disputed this thing i already knew.
But like i pointed out above, this too has nothing to do with “That Prophet”.
This is NOT the brethrenship God is meaning.
So then, this, again, is leading away from the subject matter which is this: “I will raise up from among your brethren a Prophet”.
We must stay on subject Bod.okay
Quote Again, Muhammad was never first recognized as a prophet, being first raised up as a prophet from among the Jews. Neither was Abraham or Moses.Moses was not from the tribe of Judah and was not a Jew
Quote Muhammad declared himself a prophet first among his own brethren…it is from them whom he was raised up a prophet.
Again, we see this plain indisputable truth as cancelling him out as being “That prophet”.
It just does not fit, nor ever will.Quote Ishmael and Isaac were brothers, Muhammad came from the lineof Ishmael and Moses came from the line of Isaac they are brethren.
[Quote]I know you wish it to be true with all your heart…
But it is not about what we want, but instead, about what God decides/ordains.Yes
Quote You do not understand what you quote Bod. (not being rude)
When i mentioned to you that God called us gods, you responded by stating NO, there is only One God…thus showing you did not understand the meaning of that declaration “ye are gods”.
So i do not understand why you now use this scripture of which you protested against?
And the context is not what you think it is either…The scripture is written to the judges of the Law to whom the word of God came they were called gods in the scripture and Jesus was mocking the scripture itself as he did when he asked them how could the Christ be David's son?
Quote IF…IF…IF you truly wish to understand where some of us are coming from Bod… You need to read all of what i am about to say and truly listen to the words…i apologize that it will be long…but it is not a subject explained briefly…
Okay
Quote THEN, you may SEE what we are talking about…
Which is NOT what other Christians speak nor even SEE nor even believe…for 99% of Christians hold the false doctrine of Catholic born Trinity…and are polluted because of this.But these Catholics put together your bible so why are you not believing in what they believe the Quran has been against the trinity since most all Christians believed in it but yet you say the Quran is false?
Quote Let me explain it to you… he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
> The Word of God came to the people through the Prophets of old…
> How did this happen?
> God put His Word in them and they spoke to the people.
> Notice it says “unto whom the Word of God came“…
> Came !! Meaning, the Word of God was upon them.
> Nowhere does it say that these men were the Word of God, but again, and instead, the Word of God came unto them.
> Meaning that they were already alive (human) when the Word of God came unto them.
> But THE Word of God that became flesh was NOT human first…but became human.
> Big difference.We already agree on this and it is already in the Quran
Quote To fully comprehend this statement, you need to understand what the Word of God means in all it's meaning.
There is the Word of God, that comes out of God, like speech comes out of us, and His Word, like ours, can speak many things..But unlike our Word, Gods internal Word, can, on command, act, act and work as though it were an individual…coming out of God and doing his will.
And not only an individual, but like our many words we speak, God can send out many words also…words that are not only mere speech, but words that can manifest as individual words/Spirit to either grow within many men…or in just one man…or to just briefly inhabit a man/men…that is, temporarily pass through/inhabit for a purpose.And this word/words, are Spirit, and are alive, and this word/words can manifest in men, making them able to “hear/digest/comprehend” the Father's words and speak them through that Spirit given unto them.
This word is of the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit contains this word.This is His power…His essence that goes forth from Him and does His will.
God spoke “let there be light[/B]…
Notice He only spoke, and what happened?
“There was light”
So How did God achieve this feat?
By his Word…He spoke.
He did not use hammers and drills and screwdrivers etc…
He just spoke His word.We agree with the Quran
Sura #19
20 She said: “How shall I have a son, seeing that no man has touched me, and I am not unchaste?”
21 He said: “So (it will be): Thy Lord saith, 'that is easy for Me: and (We wish) to appoint him as a Sign unto men and a Mercy from Us':It is a matter (so) decreed.”Sura #3
45 Behold! the angels said: “O Mary! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to Allah.
46 “He shall speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. And he shall be (of the company) of the righteous.”
47 She said: “O my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man hath touched me?” He said: “Even so: Allah createth what He willeth: When He hath decreed a plan, He but saith to it, 'Be,' and it is!Quote Psalm 33:6
By the
word of the Lord were the heavens made, and all the host of them by the breath of his mouthAnd that breath stands for His inner Spirit.
So His word came out an acted and obeyed.
It was this Word that created all things.Remember how i said Gods word can be many or just one?
And how He can put this word/words into one man or many men?
Do you now start to see?
And this word is within the Holy Spirit that is given to all those who obey Him.
So the Holy Spirit which is given unto individual men, contains this word/truth.We agree
Quote Yet to none of these men did he ever say…YOU are the Word of God.
Because that would mean that they would then be the actual pure word turned into flesh…like Jesus was…
But these men/Prophets, instead, had that word put into their already existing human bodies…
So they were already human before that word, which is Spirit, was put into them…
This does not make them THE Word of God..
but instead, pre-existing vessels that were permitted to receive the word of God indwelling.But the actual individual Word of God that became flesh, was not flesh before He came…He was pure Word of God.
And He became a man.
This is the difference Bod.
This is what you do not yet see…hence your confusion over scriptures concerning this, and because of this, many other scriptures.No confusion at all you agree with the Quran
Quote So you see, God has many words indwelling within men, many words that are still One word, one source, saying the SAME thing, being the same word, but dispersed in essence form to grow within many individual believers…growing at a rate related to their obedience to Him who gave that word/Spirit. But there is only ONE Word of God that came directly from God to become flesh within the womb of a human host.
And that human host was Mary.You are correct and He was the Son of Mary otherwise the scriptures wouldn't say Mary was the mother of Jesus
Quote I saw you quoted that Joseph was the true father of Jesus… No you did not see that
Quote but you left out the whole story Bod…
You should not do this thing either…
You should know full well that it is plainly stated that Joseph did NOT yet sleep with Mary and yet she was pregnant…
and Joseph was considering divorcing her…
BUT..an angel appeared to Joseph and told him HOW Mary became pregnant.
You should not have abused that by leaving it out, instead, you should have acknowledged it, and from there, spoke the truth of your heart, and that is, that you did not believe it.
That would have been far more honorable…When a man adopts a child, what is that child called from then on… that child is called his SON/DAUGHTER.
You know this Bod…it is not beyond your intelligence then to see why Joseph is called Jesus' “father”, and for that matter, how Mary can be called Jesus' “mother”.[Quote]Jesus came out of Mary that is her son
[Quote]Bod, i am not mocking you, but you need to know this….
I see you quoting much scripture…
But you do not comprehend their meanings.
Your eyes are seeing other things instead of what is meant.
It is not an insult…
Let me explain why…When one comes to Christ, i mean really comes to Christ, something special is given unto them…
The Holy Spirit.
It is this Spirit that reveals the true meanings of all scripture.
Without this Holy Spirit to guide oneself, scripture becomes, and seems, to be nothing but contradictions.
And this is what you are seeing.Not at all I see constant revelation and progression even contradictions prove truth
Quote God has done this marvelous thing for a very important reason.
And this confusion not only happens to non Christians, it also happens to Christians who do not fully submit to Christ…hence all the divisions/confusions over scripture.So since you follow Islam, this means you have not truly accepted Christ, but instead, only accept certain words of His through Muhammad's interpretation.
False I accepted Christ long ago and was baptized with the Holy Spirit long ago
Quote So then, that Holy Spirit is not given you. False belief, Learn:
John 3:8
King James Version (KJV)
8The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
The Holy Spirit is not confined to Christianity people had it before Jesus was born
Quote For you mix Christ with/through Muhammad's interpretation, who worships a god called Allah, and Allah speaks different things than Jehovah.. False: Jehovah is Allah
Quote I have read of your book personally, and i tell you, it is not the same personality speaking therein. My book or the Quran?
Quote And Christians, who do accept Christ and no other, yet mix Christ with doctrines of men, who themselves only accept Christ and no other, they only get but a small measure of that word/Spirit…
A measure so small, they are like children only able to see/understand the simple things of Christ, that is, the milk.
From here come all the divisions amongst them.For these Christians are mixing Christ's word with the word of men, men who are not submitting to Christ's way/instructions, but are attempting to understand His ways/instructions through their own wisdom without obeying His commanded lifestyle one needs to live, to receive that Spirit which must grow by LIVING Christ's exampled way…they do not do this fully, but only partially, this is not good enough to feed that given Spirit, so it is stunted within them…[Quote]
Complete nonsense, Abraham lived exactly how God wanted was full of the Spirit, you seem to think the Holy Spirit was some sort of new invention or that it began during the days of Christ believe me brother you have the Spirit then you know:
Ecclesiastes 1:9
The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall b
e done: and there is no new thing under the sun.The Holy Spirit is still trying to teach you and it will according to the readiness of your heart and head
[Quote]This means that these Christians then, by not following Christ's true message, are worldly Christians…and are tossed to and fro with many worldly born doctrines which have been influenced by Satan for to pervert the true message of Christ…
They would say the same thing about you. Why would you assume they are wrong perhaps that are simply at a certain level of understanding and if you have strived more in the way of understanding perhaps you just understand more but to judge them is dangerous
Quote And this is why so many of them of varying faiths/doctrines, can not see they are also doing things they ought not do…
Things you also mentioned…
> Bowing down in front of statues (idols) which not only God warned against, but Christ also commanded they not do…
> Using the cross symbol (another idol) which should not be used/owned/held.
> Celebrating Christmas which is a pagan festival…
> Easter also a pagan festival…
> These things also they should not do…etc etc[Quote]You sound more and more Muslim
[Quote]Because of these things, they are polluted, and their Spirit that is given is stunted and ill…unable to grow beyond a little child's understanding.
The Prophet Muhammad would agree 100% with you and so would Jesus Christ
Quote Yet honesty Bod…honesty… Yes, Honesty and Love
Quote Muslims too are deceived… The word Muslim means Submitter so technically only those whp submit themselves to god a actual Muslims and yes all types of people are deceived but the Quran does not deceive nor is it deceptive.
Quote I know of the Black stone Bod.
The stone that Muhammad preserved and venerated…
The only idol he did not destroy…
The idol his tribe worshipped…
The idol fragment said to have come down from the moon god…No it was not to have come down from any sort of “moon God”
But if you look in the bible stones were often markers for very Holy Sites that's why ED thinks his name is in the Bible because two tribes had made a stone alter for the rememberence of God it just so happens the word for Alter in Hebrew is “Ed” I have no idea why he thought that meant him out of the millions of people named ED it would be likesomeone named “Cliff” saying all the books about cliffs were talking about him.
Quote The stone that is encased in the Mosque which is kissed and venerated by Muslims…
The moon god which had a symbol used by its followers long before Islam…
A symbol Islam still uses…
The crescent moon…
The idol Muhammad saluted…You are right the cresent moon symbol was before Muhammad and is not an Islamic symbol but many of the empires used that symbol were Muslims or converted to Islam
Quote And what fragment (which means a broken off part) do you suppose is also in Mecca?
Which is encased…
which the people encircle three times on pilgrimage?
Of which most Muslims are ignorant of?So you see Bod…
Satan has been at work alright…
Both in the Christian deceptions and Muslim deceptions…What does a pilgrimage have to do with Satan?
The Holy Land acts as a focal point for the pilgrimages of the Abrahamic religions of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. According to a Stockholm University study in 2011, these pilgrims visit the Holy Land to touch and see physical manifestations of their faith, confirm their beliefs in the holy context with collective excitation, and connect personally to the Holy Land. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pilgrimage
Quote It is up to us to come out of these deceptions and embrace the truth, even at our own personal cost…be it mockings or death. This upholds the greatest commandment…
To love the Lord your god with all your heart, mind, and soul.
Thank you.
Once again you agree with the Quran.
God Bless you!
Hi Boditharta,Quote Neither was Abraham or Moses.Moses was not from the tribe of Judah and was not a Jew Correct. But God never mentioned a tribe in that certain prophecy…
Deuteronomy 18:15
The Lord thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet, from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me, unto him ye shall hearken.See, no mention of tribal origin here.
Notice Moses was addressing the tribes of Israel!!
unto THEE…
And these tribes were the only ones present when this was announced…announced to them.
So and since Moses was addressing these tribes ONLY…then “of your brethren” can only mean their brethren…direct descendants to the tribes of Israel…So then, this prophecy only concerns a Prophet of Hebrew heritage (unto THEE), “That Prophet” originating from THEIR (Hebrew/Tribes) brethren (nationality).
So unless Muhammad was a Hebrew from one of these tribes, and of THEIR brethren, and raised up a prophet in the midst of these same tribes descendants, then he can not be “That Prophet”.
This is not hard to understand.Genesis 2:11
And it came to pass in those days, when Moses was grown, that he went out unto his brethren, and looked on their burdens, and he spied an Egyptian smiting an Hebrew, one of his brethrenAgain, the brethren that Moses was speaking about, were those very same brethren spoken to in the desert that were brought out of Egypt…Hebrews.
Quote The scripture is written to the judges of the Law to whom the word of God came they were called gods in the scripture and Jesus was mocking the scripture itself as he did when he asked them how could the Christ be David's son? No Bod, God was calling all men gods…not Gods, but gods.
Bod, we are all made in His image, not just the judges etc, but all men are made in His image…Nevertheless, Jesus was not mocking at all.
Jesus was clarif
ying.John 10:24
Then came the Jews round about Him, and said unto Him, How long dost Thou make us to doubt? If Thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.John 10:34
Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?Jesus was talking to a group of Jews, but Jesus didn't just mean that Jews were gods…look at what Satan too understood…speaking to Adam and Eve…the parents of MANKIND…Adam & Eve weren't Jews either…
Genesis 3:5
For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.Only God/gods know what is good & evil…
Mankind now know too…
so this truth then makes us gods also…
More specifically, “as gods”.Quote But these Catholics put together your bible so why are you not believing in what they believe the Quran has been against the trinity since most all Christians believed in it but yet you say the Quran is false? Wrong…the Catholics had nothing to do with the 1611 King James bible.
Only the pope was allowed to own a complete bible back then, you could be put to death for copying the scrolls (which all the individual churches possessed) into book form for distribution of personal ownership…
The Catholics were furious everybody now had access to the written word…
Now their abuse of the written word could be exposed for all to see.Quote We already agree on this and it is already in the Quran Yes, but the Quran copied it out of the bible where it first appeared long before the Quran existed. You can not deny this, every person knows that the bible was before the Quran, and it was from the bible where these things were first found.
Quote No confusion at all you agree with the Quran NO, the Quran agrees with the bible on this. It was from the bible that the Quran copied this. Again…the bible was long established before the Quran even existed.
Quote False I accepted Christ long ago and was baptized with the Holy Spirit long ago Bod, you can not serve two masters. The Holy Spirit will not dwell in one that does this…i was not insulting you by this statement either, but relaying what scripture says on this subject…
And if you accepted Christ, why don't you accept all He has to say?
That is not accepting Him then is it.Quote 8The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. This scripture is describing how Spirit is….mortal men can not see it, nor tell from where it comes, nor where it goes….( just like the wind)…NOT saying that the Spirit can inhabit any type of man, that is, men of varying beliefs not exclusive to the Word of God…no, not saying this at all.
Quote The Holy Spirit is not confined to Christianity people had it before Jesus was born Not accurate Bod…
The Holy Spirit was only put into Prophets of old so they could convey Gods word to the Hebrews…Hebrew Prophets that is!
So the people who had this Spirit put into them were exclusively Hebrew…and these Prophets only believed in One God…No other race on the planet believed in One God like the Hebrews did until Jesus came…
And His Name spread around the world…
From HIM did the belief of One God end the belief of many gods for many many nations on a “national level”.
Even all the Arab nations had Christian believers long before Muhammad came along…
They were either killed off, taxed out of their faith through necessity, or moved to other lands…
The weaker in faith/understanding ones that remained, became Muslim in name only through fear of death or the heavy taxing penalized on them…
And their successive generations lost their Christian roots due to this truth.
Example: Minority Christian Iraqis are not new to Iraq….these were there before Islam…but all the weaker populace gave in to Islam through fear many many generations ago.
Seek it out for yourself Bod.
That is but one example.Thank you.
Quote (Devolution @ April 15 2012,23:03) Quote Hi Bod, You stated earlier in this thread that the Quaran was given to make the bible scriptures clearer.
Here is an interesting argument against that claim i once came across and kept….The Bible and the Qur'an are often compared to each other when Christians and Muslims are discussing issues. They are typically compared in the following ways:
Preservation of text
Formation of canon
Teaching about Jesus, women, warfare, etc.
Scientific accuracy
ContradictionsThe Quran is a single book with no Canon all the other ways are distractions in regards to comparing because there is no need to compare because one is a revelation after the other so if we compare Einstein to Newton you would be misled to believe that one is wrong.
Quote This type of comparison is something that I myself have done in the past. However, it is actually inaccurate and misleading to compare the Bible to the Qur'an. There are two reasons for this. Reason 1. The Context of the Bible and Qur'an
The Qur'an revolves and evolves around Muhammad's life. Muhammad recited the words of the Qur'an in response to various situations in his life, but what these situations were is not recorded in the Qur'an. That is, the Qur'an does not provide its own context or chronology. Knowing the correct context and chronology is essential to understand the Qur'an. But to know this context and chronology you must go outside of the Qur'an to the Islamic traditions – books like the Hadith or Sira literature. These books provide the context for the Qur'an. The Islamic scholar Habib Ur Rahman Azami clearly states the Qur'an's dependence upon the Hadith and Sira.
(I)t is almost impossible to understand or explain the meaning of a large number of Qur'anic verses if the Traditions are rejected as useless and inauthentic. (Habib Ur Rahman Azami, The Sunnah in Islam, pp. 29-31.)
This is not really accurate and if it is, the same could be said about the bible.
Quote The Bible, however, is very different. It provides its own context and chronology. Its revelation begins with creation and tells the story of God, the world, his people, the prophets and the Messiah, right through to the age of the resurrection. When the Bible gives various commands or announces the gospel it does so within a context that it itself has revealed. Thus, to understand the Bible you only need the Bible. In fact, many of the stories which are only briefly retold in the Qur'an are told in full in the Bible. The Bible is self-sufficient, as the word of God should be. Therefore to compare the Bible to the Qur'an alone is misleading and inaccurate. The bible is composed of over 60 books that were compiled and placed in an order that isnot always even correct according to authorship. There is no reason not to read the Bible but reading the Quran after reading the Bible would certainly clarify many things in light of new ideas that were accepted but were not directly in the Bible such as the worship of Mary and or Jesus as gods themselves the concept of trinity…etc. The bible couldn't refute any of these things because they had not occured until long after Christ.
Quote Reason 2. Practices and Beliefs The Qur'an does not contain most of the basic practices or many of the beliefs of Islam.
The Sunnah (the example of Muhammad) is the crucial complement to the Koran; so much so, that there are in fact isolated instances where, in fact, the Sunnah appears to prevail over the Koran as, for example, when the Koran refers to three daily prayers (24:58, 11:116, 17:78-79, 20:130, 30:17-18), but the Sunnah sets five. On the other hand, there are cases from the earliest days of Islam of universal practices which appear to contradict express Sunnah. Moreover, the Koran does not make explicit all of its commands; not even all those which are fundamental. Thus it enjoins prayer, but not how it is to be performed: the form of canonical prayer (salah) is based entirely on Sunnah. (Cyril Glassé, “Sunnah”, The Concise Encyclopedia of Islam, pp. 381-382)
(T)he obligatory injunction to establish Salah (regular, formal worship) was revealed in the Qur’an as were some of the elements of Salah (like Qiyam, Ruku`, Sujud and Qira’ah). But the actual manner of offering Salah and the order in which the various acts connected with it were to be performed, were not described in the Qur’an. … Similarly the Hajj (pilgrimage to Mecca) was prescribed as a religious duty in the Qur'an but its method and formalities were not defined. The Prophet showed the correct way by performing the Hajj himself. (Habib Ur Rahman Azami, pp. 10-11)
Narrated Al-Irbad ibn Sariyah as-Sulami: … They gathered and the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) led them in prayer, stood up and said: Does any of you, while reclining on his couch, imagine that Allah has prohibited only that which is to be found in this Qur'an? By Allah, I have preached, commanded and prohibited various matters as numerous as that which is found in the Qur'an, or more numerous. … (Abu-Dawud: bk. 19, no. 3044, Hasan)
Islamic Shariah is complete only with recourse to both the Qur'an and the Sunnah. (Habib Ur Rahman Azami, p. 5)
Muhammad himself said the Quran is the ultimate authority if there were traditions and people want to utilize them in their culture that is fine but it should not be confused with what th Quran says.
Quote How, when and what to pray, what to do on Hajj, circumcision, the signs of the hour, the story of Hagar, in fact most of the essential Islamic practices and beliefs come from the Sunnah (practices) of Muhammad. The Sunnah is essential to Islam but it does not come from the Qur'an but the Hadith and Sira. Again, this is not the case with the Bible. The Bible has everything a Christian needs. The Bible fully declares what God has done to save us and bring glory to himself and how we are to live. It is the basis for our wisdom and defines our liberty. Therefore to compare the Bible to the Qur'an alone is misleading and inaccurate. This iscompletely accurate for the greater Christian body such as Catholics, Gree orthodox and others have their own writings that give verification and authority to the teaching of belief in several things that are not in the Bible at all
Quote Why is the Bible so complete? The Bible is complete because it contains the Torah, the law of Moses, the Psalm
s of David, the Wisdom of Solomon, the prophetic books of Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Hosea, Joel, Amos, Obadiah, Jonah, Micah, Nahum, Habakkuk, Zephaniah, Haggai, Zechariah and Malachi. It has the gospel of Jesus from Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, and the writings of the apostles of the Messiah.
The Bible
Law of Moses
(Torah) The Prophets
(an-anbeea') The Psalms
(Zabur) The Gospel
(Injeel)Christians believe all the prophets and make no distinction between them, therefore, they read all of the prophets, and because they read all of the prophets they lack nothing.
Christians believe all the Prophets minus 1 but Muslims believe all the Prophets and make no distinction between them
Say (O Muslims), “We believe in Allah and that which has been sent down to us and that which has been sent down to Ibrahim (Abraham), Isma'il (Ishmael), Ishaq (Isaac), Ya'qub (Jacob), and to Al-Asbat [the offspring of the twelve sons of Ya'qub (Jacob)], and that which has been given to Musa (Moses) and 'Îsa (Jesus), and that which has been given to the Prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and to Him we have submitted (in Islam).”
( سورة البقرة , Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #136)Quote A More Accurate Comparison It should be clear now that to compare the Bible to the Qur'an is irrelevant because while the Bible is the foundation of Christianity, the Qur'an is not the foundation of Islam, rather Islam is founded on the Qur'an, Hadith and Sira. If you want an honest and accurate comparison between the books of Christianity and Islam then you must compare the essential books of both religions.
False analogy, The gospel is the foundation of Christianity and the hijacking of the former books taken in with a different perspective. The Jews don't believe in any such collection of works called the old testament nor any New Covenant. the find the Christian faith “False” so taking their books and claiming them as a foundation is quite bizarre
Quote Some facts on the Hadith. The word “hadith” means an account or news about something. A hadith can vary in length from a sentence to a full page. In Islam the main subject of the Hadith is what Muhammad did and said, that is, the Hadith contain the Sunnah. There are many large collections of Hadith. Prof. Masud-ul-Hasan explains what the main collections are:
Muslim The collection of hadith by Imam Muslim. 8 volumes in the English/Arabic translation.
Al-Bukhari The collection of hadith by Imam Bukhari. 9 volumes in the English/Arabic translation.The recognised collection of Hadith on the “Musannaf”[1] pattern are the collections of:
Al-Bukhari (d. 870 C.E.) [A collection of 7658 hadiths (ahadith).]
Muslim (d. 875 C.E.) [A collection of 7748 hadiths.]
Abu Daud (d. 875 C.E.) [A collection of 5276 hadiths.]
Al-Tirmizi (d. 892 C.E.) [A collection of 4415 hadiths.]
Al-Nasai (d. 915 C.E.) [A collection of 5776 hadiths.]
Ibn Maja (d. 886 C.E.) [A collection of 4485 hadiths.]… The collections of Al-Bukhari and Muslim rank high and are known as “Al-Sahihain” i.e. authentic and authoritative.
The best known collection on the “Musnad”[2] pattern is the collection of Ahmad ibn Hanbal (d. 855 C.E.).
The Shia works on “Hadith”, do not merely refer to what the Holy Prophet said or did, they also refer to what the Shia Imams said or did. The Shia works on Hadith are the collections of:
Muhammad ibn Yakub Al-Kulluni (d. 939 C.E.)
Muhammad Al-Hummi (d. 991 C.E.)
Tahir Al-Sharif Al-Murtaza (d. 1004 C.E.)
Muhammad Al-Tusi (d. 1067 C.E.) (Prof. Masud-ul-Hasan, History of Islam, vol. 1, p. 613)There is also the important collection of the Muwatta of Malik.
The Hadith are part of the Islamic canon, yet Sunni and Shia disagree dramatically over which Hadith to accept. This means that within Islam there are very different canons that are used.
Ibn Sa'd Ibn Sa'ad, Kitab Al-Tabaqat Al-Kabir
Ibn Ishaq Ibn Ishaq, Sirat Rasul Allah translated as 'The Life of Muhammad'Some facts on the Sira. The Sira are the biographies of Muhammad's life. These provide the context and chronology of his life, and thus the context and chronology of the Qur'an. The two oldest Sira are:
Muhammad ibn Ishaq (d. 773 C.E.) via ibn Hisham's (d. 840 C.E.) recension, Sirat Rasul Allah. (English translation 798 pages[3].)
Muhammad ibn Sa'd (d. 852 C.E.), Kitab al-Tabaqat al-Kabir, (English translation, 1097 pages[4].)These are not essential to the Quran. The Quran is complete within itself:
“Thus will thy Lord choose thee and teach thee the interpretation of stories (and events) and perfect His favour to thee and to the posterity of Jacob – even as He perfected it to thy fathers Abraham and Isaac aforetime! for Allah is full of knowledge and wisdom.”
( سورة يوسف , Yusuf, Chapter #12, Verse #6)Forbidden to you (for food) are: dead meat, blood, the flesh of swine, and that on which hath been invoked the name of other than Allah. that which hath been killed by strangling, or by a violent blow, or by a headlong fall, or by being gored to death; that which hath been (partly) eaten by a wild animal; unless ye are able to slaughter it (in due form); that which is sacrificed on stone (altars); (forbidden) also is the division (of meat) by raffling with arrows: that is impiety. This day have those who reject faith given up all hope of your religion: yet fear them not but fear Me. This day have I perfected your religion for you, completed My favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion. But if any is forced by hunger, with no inclination to transgression, Allah is indeed Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
( سورة المائدة , Al-Maeda, Chapter #5, Verse #3)[Quote]As you can read and see, there are a lot of other essential books in Islam than just the Qur'an, and they are all much bigger than the Qur'an. Both Bukhari and Muslim contain more hadiths than the Qur'an's 6236 verses. I have been told by an ex-Muslim Islamic scholar that Islam is 10% Quran and 90% traditions (Hadith and Sira). The Quran is like the frame of a picture. It sets some boundaries, but the details of the picture are provided by the traditions.[/Quran]
No the Quran is the complete picture it is only those who wish to control that go outside of the truth.
The Religion before Allah is Islam (submission to His Will): Nor did the People of the Book dissent therefrom except through envy of each other, after knowledge had come to them. But if any deny the Signs of Allah, Allah is swift in calling to account.
( سورة آل عمران , Aal-e-Imran, Chapter #3, Verse #19)We settled the Children of Israel in a beautiful dwelling-place, and provided for them sustenance of the best: it was after knowledge had been granted to them, that they fell into schisms. Verily Allah will judge between them as to the schisms amongst them, on the Day of Judgment.
( سورة يونس , Yunus, Chapter #10, Verse #93)And they became divided only after knowledge reached them,- through selfish envy as between thems
elves. Had it not been for a Word that went forth before from thy Lord, (tending) to a Term appointed, the matter would have been settled between them: But truly those who have inherited the Book after them are in suspicious (disquieting) doubt concerning it.
( سورة الشورى , Ash-Shura, Chapter #42, Verse #14)[Quote]Some Application
1. Do not think that the Qur'an and Bible are basically the same. The Bible contains the writings of many prophets from Moses to Jesus. It provides all its own context and is sufficient for Christian belief and practice. The Qur'an however, only has what Muhammad, one man, recited. It does not provide the context for what it says or have the essential practices of Islam; these come from other Islamic books.
2. If Christians and Muslims want to compare books on any subject then the Hadith and Sira must be included in this comparison for it to be accurate and meaningful. The Hadith and Sira are part of the Islamic canon as much as the Qur'an is. If you see an Islamic leader comparing the Bible to just the Qur'an then have the courage to explain why this is inadequate and misleading.
3. In the media, Islamic leaders, and others, often say that certain practices, like female circumcision, are not authentic Islam because they are not in the Qur'an. However, statements like these are either ill-informed or deliberately misleading because authentic Islam is not based on the Qur'an but on the Qur'an and Sunnah. It is true that the Qur'an does not mention male or female circumcision, but this does not stop circumcision from being an authentic Islamic practice because it comes from the Sunnah.
4. Islam is a complex religion because it is based on so many books, each of which have their own method of study and critical issues. It is very difficult, if not impossible, for most Muslims to be familiar with all these essential books. This means that Muslims must depend upon their scholars to make the complex simple. However, it is possible for a Christian to read and be familiar with the whole Bible. When we invite you to become a Christian we are only asking you to accept the Bible.[Quote]
Islam is the most simple direct route to know and love God for all mankind. Unless a person reads the Quran they will not understand how close they can be to God and how Quick that can happen. The path of the Quran can be summed up for a Christian like this:
Ecclesiastes 12:12-14
King James Version (KJV)
12And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh.
13Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
14For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.
This is Islam
Bodhitharta.
I know that you have to be faithful to the qur'an,but that means being unfaithful to god and his word.
This is life or death; ans long as you stay with the qur'an you will lose youre life. Is it worthed?
wakeup.
Quote (Wakeup @ April 16 2012,21:25) Bodhitharta. I know that you have to be faithful to the qur'an,but that means being unfaithful to god and his word.
This is life or death; ans long as you stay with the qur'an you will lose youre life. Is it worthed?
wakeup.
Hi WakeupLuke 17:33
Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.I believe in Christ Jesus and I believe what the Quran reports regarding him as it is a revelation from God so if I lose my life for the sake of my love for Christ so be it.
Each Christian had to also make this decision when the Jews were calling Jesus a False prophet and False Messiah the ones that followed Jesus acted in good faith.
We must not always assume that God is somehow ignorant of what the truth is. Do you not believe that God is Just? Do you believe that God judges upon appearance and what a person says they believe in?
People are judged by their context and understanding of knowledge and how that is applied.
For instance as I keep saying your opinion of God is one of Wrath and Sacrifice and my opinion of God is one of Forgiveness and Mercy.
Quote (Devolution @ April 16 2012,06:06)
Hi Boditharta,Quote Neither was Abraham or Moses.Moses was not from the tribe of Judah and was not a Jew Quote Correct. But God never mentioned a tribe in that certain prophecy… Deuteronomy 18:15
The Lord thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet, from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me, unto him ye shall hearken.So then who is more like Moses than Muhammad? Jesus is nothing like Moses
Quote See, no mention of tribal origin here.
Notice Moses was addressing the tribes of Israel!!
unto THEE…
And these tribes were the only ones present when this was announced…announced to them.
So and since Moses was addressing these tribes ONLY…then “of your brethren” can only mean their brethren…direct descendants to the tribes of Israel…If this is true then Jesus saying he was sent ONLY to the house of Israel should be taken the same way but somehow you allow wiggle room there
Quote So then, this prophecy only concerns a Prophet of Hebrew heritage (unto THEE), “That Prophet” originating from THEIR (Hebrew/Tribes) brethren (nationality). So unless Muhammad was a Hebrew from one of these tribes, and of THEIR brethren, and raised up a prophet in the midst of these same tribes descendants, then he can not be “That Prophet”.
This is not hard to understand.Makes no sense Noah was not hebrew nor was Jonah
Quote Genesis 2:11
And it came to pass in those days, when Moses was grown, that he went out unto his brethren, and looked on their burdens, and he spied an Egyptian smiting an Hebrew, one of his brethrenAgain, the brethren that Moses was speaking about, were those very same brethren spoken to in the desert that were brought out of Egypt…Hebrews.
you do realize Moses also had an egyptian wife and kids, right?
Quote No Bod, God was calling all men gods…not Gods, but gods.
Bod, we are all made in His image, not just the judges etc, but all men are made in His image…Jesus said he was talking about the people whom the word of God came not all men if it meant all men surely Jesus would not have said don't go to the gentiles it just wouldn't make sense.
Quote Nevertheless, Jesus was not mocking at all.
Jesus was clarifying.John 10:24
Then came the Jews round about Him, and said unto Him, How long dost Thou make us to doubt? If Thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.John 10:34
Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?Jesus was talking to a group of Jews, but Jesus didn't just mean that Jews were gods…look at what Satan too understood…speaking to Adam and Eve…the parents of MANKIND…Adam & Eve weren't Jews either…
Genesis 3:5
For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.Only God/gods know what is good & evil…
Mankind now know too…
so this truth then makes us gods also…
More specifically, “as gods”.In other words “the Judges” in Psalms knew by the word of God, how to judge good and evil
Quote But these Catholics put together your bible so why are you not believing in what they believe the Quran has been against the trinity since most all Christians believed in it but yet you say the Quran is false? Quote Wrong…the Catholics had nothing to do with the 1611 King James bible.
Only the pope was allowed to own a complete bible back then, you could be put to death for copying the scrolls (which all the individual churches possessed) into book form for distribution of personal ownership…
The Catholics were furious everybody now had access to the written word…
Now their abuse of the written word could be exposed for all to see.How do you think the 1611 King James bible came about without any Catholic resources? You don't understand that Protestants are the Daughter of Catholicism?
Quote Yes, but the Quran copied it out of the bible where it first appeared long before the Quran existed. You can not deny this, every person knows that the bible was before the Quran, and it was from the bible where these things were first found. So on one hand you say that Muhammad just took the bible and copied it and on the other hand you say it is not the word of God?
Quote No confusion at all you agree with the Quran Quote NO, the Quran agrees with the bible on this. It was from the bible that the Quran copied this. Again…the bible was long established before the Quran even existed. Once again you call an agreement somehow incorrect?
Quote False I accepted Christ long ago and was baptized with the Holy Spirit long ago Quote Bod, you can not serve two masters. Isn't it you
that serves Jesus as lord and Jehovah as Lord? That is two masters.I Only serve God Almighty and He is ONE LORD
They take their priests and their anchorites to be their lords in derogation of Allah, and (they take as their Lord) Christ the son of Mary; yet they were commanded to worship but One Allah. there is no god but He. Praise and glory to Him: (Far is He) from having the partners they associate (with Him).
( سورة التوبة , At-Taubah, Chapter #9, Verse #31)Quote The Holy Spirit will not dwell in one that does this…i was not insulting you by this statement either, but relaying what scripture says on this subject…
And if you accepted Christ, why don't you accept all He has to say?
That is not accepting Him then is it.Isn't it you that says that Christ cannot be speking in the Quran?
When Jesus found Unbelief on their part He said: “Who will be My helpers to (the work of) Allah.” Said the disciples: “We are Allah.s helpers: We believe in Allah, and do thou bear witness that we are Muslims.
( سورة آل عمران , Aal-e-Imran, Chapter #3, Verse #52)Quote 8The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. Quote This scripture is describing how Spirit is….mortal men can not see it, nor tell from where it comes, nor where it goes….( just like the wind)…NOT saying that the Spirit can inhabit any type of man, that is, men of varying beliefs not exclusive to the Word of God…no, not saying this at all. The fact is you do not know. The Jews don't believe in Christ Jesus at all can any devout Jew have the Holy Spirit? If you say yes then why wouldn't a Muslim believing in Christ Jesus have the Holy Spirit?
Quote The Holy Spirit is not confined to Christianity people had it before Jesus was born Quote Not accurate Bod…
The Holy Spirit was only put into Prophets of old so they could convey Gods word to the Hebrews…Hebrew Prophets that is!
So the people who had this Spirit put into them were exclusively Hebrew…and these Prophets only believed in One God…Noah was not Hebrew, Enoch was not Hebrew you have it wrong my friend very wrong and you are not Hebrew and yet you claim to have the Spirit and if you saynow the Spirit is in more than just the Hebrews then why wouldn't a Muslim be able to have it?
Quote No other race on the planet believed in One God like the Hebrews did until Jesus came… You are quite incorrect there were several people who had that belief including Zoroastrians and this was 600 years before Christ
Zoroastrians believe that there is one universal and transcendent God
Quote And His Name spread around the world…
From HIM did the belief of One God end the belief of many gods for many many nations on a “national level”.
Even all the Arab nations had Christian believers long before Muhammad came along…
They were either killed off, taxed out of their faith through necessity, or moved to other lands…
The weaker in faith/understanding ones that remained, became Muslim in name only through fear of death or the heavy taxing penalized on them…
And their successive generations lost their Christian roots due to this truth.
Example: Minority Christian Iraqis are not new to Iraq….these were there before Islam…but all the weaker populace gave in to Islam through fear many many generations ago.
Seek it out for yourself Bod.
That is but one example.so basically you are saying it was taken from them?
Matthew 21:43
Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.Quote (Wakeup @ April 15 2012,18:25) EDj. No ED, He honoured mary also.
wakeup.
Hi Wakeup,Thank you!
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)Quote (bodhitharta @ April 17 2012,03:42) Quote (Wakeup @ April 16 2012,21:25) Bodhitharta. I know that you have to be faithful to the qur'an,but that means being unfaithful to god and his word.
This is life or death; ans long as you stay with the qur'an you will lose youre life. Is it worthed?
wakeup.
Hi WakeupLuke 17:33
Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.I believe in Christ Jesus and I believe what the Quran reports regarding him as it is a revelation from God so if I lose my life for the sake of my love for Christ so be it.
Each Christian had to also make this decision when the Jews were calling Jesus a False prophet and False Messiah the ones that followed Jesus acted in good faith.
We must not always assume that God is somehow ignorant of what the truth is. Do you not believe that God is Just? Do you believe that God judges upon appearance and what a person says they believe in?
People are judged by their context and understanding of knowledge and how that is applied.
For instance as I keep saying your opinion of God is one of Wrath and Sacrifice and my opinion of God is one of Forgiveness and Mercy.
Hi Bodhitharta.The scriptures says,that we must LABOUR FOR THE FIRST RESURRECTION; The second resurrection is for all to be judged.
Jesus also said that we must feed on his flesh and his blood(the scriptures)(the word)for he is the word of God.But if you are spiritually satisfied with what you have, then so be it.
wakeup.
Quote (Wakeup @ April 17 2012,22:50) Quote (bodhitharta @ April 17 2012,03:42) Quote (Wakeup @ April 16 2012,21:25) Bodhitharta. I know that you have to be faithful to the qur'an,but that means being unfaithful to god and his word.
This is life or death; ans long as you stay with the qur'an you will lose youre life. Is it worthed?
wakeup.
Hi WakeupLuke 17:33
Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.I believe in Christ Jesus and I believe what the Quran reports regarding him as it is a revelation from God so if I lose my life for the sake of my love for Christ so be it.
Each Christian had to also make this decision when the Jews were calling Jesus a False prophet and False Messiah the ones that followed Jesus acted in good faith.
We must not always assume that God is somehow ignorant of what the truth is. Do you not believe that God is Just? Do you believe that God judges upon appearance and what a person says they believe in?
People are judged by their context and understanding of knowledge and how that is applied.
For instance as I keep saying your opinion of God is one of Wrath and Sacrifice and my opinion of God is one of Forgiveness and Mercy.
Hi Bodhitharta.The scriptures says,that we must LABOUR FOR THE FIRST RESURRECTION; The second resurrection is for all to be judged.
Jesus also said that we must feed on his flesh and his blood(the scriptures)(the word)for he is the word of God.But if you are spiritually satisfied with what you have, then so be it.
wakeup.
But aren't you the one spiritually satisfied? I always long for the knowledge and presence of GodBodhitharta.
You are a spiritual person,but you have been feeding on strange flesh.
Need to feed on Christ flesh only.wakeup.
Quote (Wakeup @ April 19 2012,23:12) Bodhitharta. You are a spiritual person,but you have been feeding on strange flesh.
Need to feed on Christ flesh only.wakeup.
Sounds like the plot of a really bad horror movie.Stuart
Quote (Stu @ April 20 2012,11:29) Quote (Wakeup @ April 19 2012,23:12) Bodhitharta. You are a spiritual person,but you have been feeding on strange flesh.
Need to feed on Christ flesh only.wakeup.
Sounds like the plot of a really bad horror movie.Stuart
Stu.There are billions of people that believe in the spiritual,and there are millions that are of the material world.
These are they that live in in a dome; can not look out,they are confined. They only see what they can see;they dont have the third eye,to see the beyond.The spiritual person can look in and out the dome.
The material is dust,all turns to dust.The spiritual doing good is for ever.The material person will be flabbergasted when all will be revealed,they will wet their pants,asking for forgiveness for being so all knowing.
cheers.
wakeup.
Quote (Wakeup @ April 20 2012,19:42) There are billions of people that believe in the spiritual,and there are millions that are of the material world.
These are they that live in in a dome; can not look out,they are confined. They only see what they can see;they dont have the third eye,to see the beyond.The spiritual person can look in and out the dome.
The material is dust,all turns to dust.The spiritual doing good is for ever.The material person will be flabbergasted when all will be revealed,they will wet their pants,asking for forgiveness for being so all knowing.
cheers.
wakeup.
A sane, rational person can only see what they can see,
they don't have a third eye to see beyond.
Schizophrenia on the other hand………………Tim
Quote (Wakeup @ April 20 2012,19:42) Quote (Stu @ April 20 2012,11:29) Quote (Wakeup @ April 19 2012,23:12) Bodhitharta. You are a spiritual person,but you have been feeding on strange flesh.
Need to feed on Christ flesh only.wakeup.
Sounds like the plot of a really bad horror movie.Stuart
Stu.There are billions of people that believe in the spiritual,and there are millions that are of the material world.
These are they that live in in a dome; can not look out,they are confined. They only see what they can see;they dont have the third eye,to see the beyond.The spiritual person can look in and out the dome.
The material is dust,all turns to dust.The spiritual doing good is for ever.The material person will be flabbergasted when all will be revealed,they will wet their pants,asking for forgiveness for being so all knowing.
cheers.
wakeup.
Quote they dont have the third eye,to see the beyond.
Sounds like the plot point of a really bad sci-fi movie.Quote they will wet their pants
The threats that the god-deluded make on behalf of their Imaginary Friends are so comical that I already am.Stuart
Quote (TimothyVI @ April 20 2012,21:46) Quote (Wakeup @ April 20 2012,19:42) There are billions of people that believe in the spiritual,and there are millions that are of the material world.
These are they that live in in a dome; can not look out,they are confined. They only see what they can see;they dont have the third eye,to see the beyond.The spiritual person can look in and out the dome.
The material is dust,all turns to dust.The spiritual doing good is for ever.The material person will be flabbergasted when all will be revealed,they will wet their pants,asking for forgiveness for being so all knowing.
cheers.
wakeup.
A sane, rational person can only see what they can see,
they don't have a third eye to see beyond.
Schizophrenia on the other hand………………Tim
Timothyv1.What have you got to show us,What is your philosophy?
Nothing; you have nothing to show us,but ridicule.
You just work, eat, sleep,have fun, grow old and helpless and then you die, end of story.You have no purpose in life,its all emptiness.wakeup.
Quote (Wakeup @ April 21 2012,17:09) Quote (TimothyVI @ April 20 2012,21:46) Quote (Wakeup @ April 20 2012,19:42) There are billions of people that believe in the spiritual,and there are millions that are of the material world.
These are they that live in in a dome; can not look out,they are confined. They only see what they can see;they dont have the third eye,to see the beyond.The spiritual person can look in and out the dome.
The material is dust,all turns to dust.The spiritual doing good is for ever.The material person will be flabbergasted when all will be revealed,they will wet their pants,asking for forgiveness for being so all knowing.
cheers.
wakeup.
A sane, rational person can only see what they can see,
they don't have a third eye to see beyond.
Schizophrenia on the other hand………………Tim
Timothyv1.What have you got to show us,What is your philosophy?
Nothing; you have nothing to show us,but ridicule.
You just work, eat, sleep,have fun, grow old and helpless and then you die, end of story.You have no purpose in life,its all emptiness.wakeup.
Two questions for you:1. Had you considered asking, rather than telling?
2. What business is it of yours how Tim chooses to profligately waste his existence, or not?Stuart
Quote (Wakeup @ April 21 2012,17:09) What have you got to show us,What is your philosophy?
Nothing; you have nothing to show us,but ridicule.
You just work, eat, sleep,have fun, grow old and helpless and then you die, end of story.You have no purpose in life,its all emptiness.wakeup.
Wiki: Philosophy is the study of general and fundamental problems, such as those connected with existence, knowledge, values, reason, mind, and language.[1][2] Philosophy is distinguished from other ways of addressing such problems by its critical, generally systematic approach and its reliance on rational argument.[3] The word “philosophy” comes from the Greek φιλοσοφία (philosophia), which literally means “love of wisdom”.Well let's compare my philosophy to yours wakeup, shall we? One point at a time.
Existence – I believe that there is a great deal of scientific proof that we have come to exist as we now are through a process of evolution.
You believe we magically poofed into existence from a pile of dirt.
Values – I believe that my values and ethics are subjective and based on my personal interpretations of what is right and wrong within the confines of the society in which I live, I donate my time to those that need my help, financial resources to charities that help people in need, and my physical presence to the infirm that are in desperate need of simple companionship. I also donate time and money to no kill animal shelters.
For what it is worth, every single time that I go to the grocery store (Kroger) I also buy one of the bags of food that they distribute to the hungry. Those kind things, along with simply enjoying the beauty of life, my family and my surroundings are part of my purpose in life. It is most assuredly not emptiness as you imply.
You on the other hand think that the only purpose in life is to please God.
So anything that you do to help other people is to gather brownie points with God.
You also believe that atrocities such as genocide, stoning people to death for minor infractions, slavery and killing are good things if God orders them and says that they are good things. In my opinion, those are detestable values.____
Language – I believe that language differences are an evolutionary process of social bonding. Every one in a group wants to sound the same as everyone else in order to belong to that group. So their particular language evolves.
You think that language differences come from God toppling the tower of Bable and scattering the people and their language..
You sound extremely small minded and angry wakeup,
but I wish you a great day nevertheless.Tim
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