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Gene,
Isaiah 53 has a true perspective that can correct yours. Please take some time to read the chapter…take all the time you want.
10But the LORD was pleased
To crush Him, putting Him to grief;
If He would render Himself as a guilt offering,
He will see His offspring,
He will prolong His days,
And the good pleasure of the LORD will prosper in His hand.11As a result of the anguish of His soul,
He will see it and be satisfied;
By His knowledge the Righteous One,
My Servant, will justify the many,
As He will bear their iniquities.12Therefore, I will allot Him a portion with the great,
And He will divide the booty with the strong;
Because He poured out Himself to death,
And was numbered with the transgressors;
Yet He Himself bore the sin of many,
And interceded for the transgressors.Look at just a couple of things that the “Servant” Jesus, the Son of God does just in these few verses:
He (the Son of God) rendered HIMSELF as a guilt offering, HE WHO WAS WITHOUT SIN DID THIS.
He (the Son of God) bears the iniquities of the world, not His own iniquities since He has none.
He (the Son of God) poured out HIMSELF to death.
He (the Son of God) intercedes for the guilty transgressors.
Gene, who paid the greater price for our sin? The Father or the Son?
Put it another way…who pays the greater price for our freedom that the USA has benefited from? The father who gives his son to be the actual soldier in harm’s way or the son who marches right to the front line of the battle, ready to fight for our freedom and die if need be, in order to defend the freedom which the USA has so abundantly received? To you it is the father who is the greater hero? The father will tell you himself that the praise goes to his son, the son is the hero. My daughter is dating a First Lieutenant in the US Army and I can tell you that he is a hero, he has protected his men by shielding them with his own body, and in many ways. It is not his father that is the hero in this war, it is his son. However the father should receive the glory that comes from having a son who is ready to die for people who don’t even support the war and who don’t appreciate the freedom they have to not support the war.
My answer stands…both gave.. It is the Son who paid the debt, it was not the Father who paid the debt. The Father received the payment. Sending the Son was not the payment, the Son’s love and willing, obedient life and death, that was the payment. The Father did not come as a sheep to die as an unblemished lamb, the Son did this. The Father sent His ONLY BEGOTTEN SON to be our hero, our redeemer, our saviour. The Father would not be able to be honored as God the “All in all” apart from His hero…His Son. It is not too late to repent from your denial of this.
Your problem is your disagreement with the truth, Gene. You need a mediator who tells the Father that He knows all of creation are like sheep that have gone astray but then the Son reminds the Father that all of the sheep’s iniquity was placed on Him and it is through His (the Son’s) life and death, their debt is paid. The Father received that payment. You Gene, must realize that it was the Son who paid your debt in order for your debt to be paid. It really is that simple. You are not asked to pay your debt, you aren’t able to. Isn’t that something to be eternally grateful for? The one who paid your debt tells you to take up your cross and follow him even to the point of denying your brothers that try to suggest another path. You are to follow Jesus above your brothers, not equal to your brothers. You are greatly mistaken in placing your love for Jesus as an equal love for your earthly brothers. Choose you this day who you will serve, Jesus or another brother? Would it not be Jesus? Does He not have a higher rank? Did your earthly brothers pay your debt also???
The Free ONE became a slave.
The Rich ONE became poor.
The Shepherd became a sheep.
It was the Free Son who became a slave, Gene, not the Father.
It was the Rich Son who became poor, Gene, not the Father.
It was the Shepherd Son who became the sheep, Gene, not the Father.
Hi LU,
‘Jesus has no need for our obedience without love’
If you do not obey the Son then he does not know you.
Seek ye first the kingdom of God and everything else will be added to you.
Hi Nick,
I didn’t say we aren’t to obey the Son.
Which is better:
1. Your son obeys you but doesn’t love you.
2. Your son loves you and therefore obeys you.
Gene,
you said:
So which hing on a door is more important the upper or the lower, are they not “BOTH” EQUALLY IMPORTANT?
No Gene, not according to Jesus. Read what He thinks about it:
Jesus declared, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ 38This is the first and greatest commandment.
Did you read that Gene??? Jesus said the first commandment is the greatest which means that the second commandment is not equal to the first.
Gene,
you asked:
So now, because i disagree with you i am arrogant? Is that the way you view people who disagree with you. Jesus told us to have Salt in yourselves “and” have peace.
Actually I do not know why you are arrogant, maybe you can tell me. I certainly do not view people who disagree with me as arrogant just because they disagree with me. I view people as arrogant when they rudely and falsely accuse me or others of something and call it “fact” when in fact, they are clearly wrong and it is clearly proven. For instance, you questioned whether or not I even knew the definition of love as if I didn’t even know what love was. When actually I put the definition of love from 1 Corinthians 13 in my first post on this topic and told you to read it several times and answer the question in the first post. It seemed like there was some sort of disconnect within your comprehension for you to suggest that I didn’t even know what love was when it was I who put it in the first post to begin with.
And now, you remind me to have salt in myself and have peace. Actually the salt is what we season our words with to help them ‘taste better’ to the one they were intended for. The salt in our words is not meant to be something we rub into the wounds of the recipient with an arrogant attitude. If arrogance is your attitude in your speech, what good is your message? It neither lifts up the person nor gives life. Arrogance is not love, boastfulness is not love either. Neither will bring peace to those who around it.
If you want to promote peace be kind with your words, patient when wronged, etc.
1 Corinthians 13
1If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. 2If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing.
4Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant, 5does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered, 6does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth; 7bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
Nick,
1If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. 2If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing.
Does that not say to do works out of love as opposed to doing works without love.
That passage tells us that our actions without love profits us in no way. Love must come first, then works to be profitable.
Hi LU,
1Peter 1.8
In this you greatly rejoice, even though now for a little while , if necessary, you have been distressed by various trials, so that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold which is perishable, even though tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honour at the revelation of Jesus Christ; and though you have not seen him, you love him, and though you do not see him now, but believe in him, you greatly rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.
You suggest we make an effort to do what is natural for us?
Wake up.
Hi LU ,
Lk 17.7
Which of you, having a slave plowing or tending sheep, will say to him when he has come in from the field,
’Come immediately and sit down to eat,’
But will he not say to him,
’Prepare something for me to eat, and properly clothe yourself and serve me while I eat and drink, and afterward you may eat and drink’?
He does not thank the slave because he did the things which were commanded, does he? So you too, when you do all the things which are commanded you say,
’We are unworthy slaves; we have done only that which we ought to have done.
Know your place and be careful to obey.
Hi LU,
Lk 13.13
And someone said to him,
’Lord, are there just a few being saved? ‘
and he said to them,
’Strive to enter through the narrow door, for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able. Once the head of the house gets up and shuts the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock on the door, saying,
’Lord, open up to us!’
then he will answer and say to you,
’I do not where you are from’
Then you will begin to say,
’We ate and drank in your presence; and you taught in our streets’
And he will say,
’I tell you, I do not know where you are from; depart from me, all you evildoers..’
We serve a master who expects more commitment evidence than just professed love.
There is no group entry.
Hi Nick,
you asked:
When did our Master demand that we love him?
He doesn’t demand that we love him.
you said:
We serve a master who expects more commitment evidence than just professed love.
Do you think that I do not know that?
Hi LU,
So why did you make up the idea that the Son of God needs our love?
Stay within scriptural bounds is my suggestion.
‘ Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching does not have God;’
2 Jn 9
Nick, I don’t think that I said that the Son of God needs our love. Can you show me where I said that Jesus “needs” our love?
Nick,
Are these two statements the same or very different:
Jesus needs our love.
Jesus desires our love.
Nick,
Do you think that Jesus desires our love after reading these two verses? Do you think that Jesus is saying that you are to love him as much as you love your father and mother, sons and daughters or more than your father and mother, sons and daughters?
John 14:21
“He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will disclose Myself to him.”
Matt 10:37
37“He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. 38“And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me.
Hi LU,
So those in his body show their love for him by obedience.
Their devotion to him is shown by putting his commands before even our own family.
But you think proclamations of love are useful?
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