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The KJV, don't have a NASB………..Could you show the difference in translation and what you understand by it please
Hi datguy:
1 Timothy 3:16 in the KJV states:
Quote 16And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory This verse is speaking about godliness, and is undoubtedly speaking about Jesus. Why the KJV translates this verse “God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit..” is beyond me. God does not have to justified in the Spirit. I read that some manuscripts have it this way. The Greek interlinear has it “who” where God is used in this verse.
The NASB has it:
Quote 16By common confession, great is (AF)the mystery of godliness:
He who was (AG)revealed in the flesh,
Was (AH)vindicated in the Spirit,
(AI)Seen by angels,
(AJ)Proclaimed among the nations,
(AK)Believed on in the world,
(AL)Taken up in glory.This in my opinion is the better of the two translations, that is between KJV and this one.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (942767 @ July 14 2009,22:16) Hi datguy: 1 Timothy 3:16 in the KJV states:
Quote 16And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory This verse is speaking about godliness, and is undoubtedly speaking about Jesus. Why the KJV translates this verse “God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit..” is beyond me. God does not have to justified in the Spirit. I read that some manuscripts have it this way. The Greek interlinear has it “who” where God is used in this verse.
The NASB has it:
Quote 16By common confession, great is (AF)the mystery of godliness:
He who was (AG)revealed in the flesh,
Was (AH)vindicated in the Spirit,
(AI)Seen by angels,
(AJ)Proclaimed among the nations,
(AK)Believed on in the world,
(AL)Taken up in glory.This in my opinion is the better of the two translations, that is between KJV and this one.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Hi 94But what is the “mystery” of Jesus being revealed in the flesh?
The NIV puts it this way…
Beyond all question, the mystery of godliness is great: He* appeared in a body,* was vindicated by the Spirit, was seen by angels, was preached among the nations, was believed on in the world, was taken up in glory. 1 Tim 3:16
Footnotes:
* Some manuscripts God
* Or in the fleshThis confirms what Paul says in Phil 2:6-10 when he says…
“Who, being in very nature (morphē) God“, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature (morphē)
of a servant, “being (ginomai) made (ginomai) in human likeness“. And being found in appearance (schēma) as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death- even death on a cross! Phil 2:6-8Why all the extra Biblical language if Paul did not believe that Jesus was the “Word that was with God and the Word that was God” and that same “Word” that became (ginomai) flesh in John 1:1, 14.
“morphē” Strong's G3444
1) the form by which a person or thing strikes the vision
2) external appearance“ginomai” Strong's G1096
1) to become, i.e. to come into existence, begin to be, receive being2) to become, i.e. to come to pass, happen
a) of events
3) to arise, appear in history, come upon the stage
a) of men appearing in public
4) to be made, finished
a) of miracles, to be performed, wrought
5) to become, be made
“schēma” Strong's G4976
1) the habitus, as comprising everything in a person which strikes the senses, the figure, bearing, discourse, actions, manner of life etc.Jesus clearly said…
For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. John 6:38
Read a little further and Jesus says…
Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father. John 6:46
When did he see the Father? Before he came down from heaven.
Or else John is lying when he said in two other places that no man has seen the Father!
Then Jesus wanted to make sure they understood where he came from so he says…
What if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before! John 6:62
Now Jesus has returned to his previous Glory that he shared with the Father before the beginning of the creation.
And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began. John 17:5
But I await for all the oppologetics and inference forced on these text to explain away what is so obviously clear.
If a child was to read these scriptures they would say Jesus came from heaven, “literrally”!
Blessings WJ
Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 15 2009,19:56) Hi WJ,
So you now want to read the mind of God's servants too and preach what you imagine as truth?
Nick,
It's not a matter of reading minds. The Scriptures have been explained away so many times that we know what to expect.thinker
The following is an explanation of 1Tim.3:16 copied from the CPC.
16 Not only is the manuscript evidence against the reading “God manifest in flesh”, but other considerations force us to the same conclusion. In the typical teaching of the tabernacle the curtain represented His flesh (Heb.10:20). Now the veil did not reveal, but rather hid the Divine presence. It could not be said to manifest it. The phrase “justified in spirit” is also inept when applied to Christ. The proclamation among the nations is out of place, as no such ministry was attempted until long after He had been “taken up in glory.”
The whole passage is concerned with conduct. The secret of devout conduct is traced in its various manifestations in those who are its subjects. It should be manifested in flesh by the ideal acts which it produces, it enjoys justification in spirit, is the subject of angelic inspection (Eph.3:10), is proclaimed among the nations, and will be removed from the world before the Lord appears in judgment.
Blessings.Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 15 2009,03:56) Hi WJ,
So you now want to read the mind of God's servants too and preach what you imagine as truth?
NHWhat is your statement supposed to mean? Are you trying to say we cannot understand what the Apostles wrote?
WJ
Hi WJ,
You said
“Why all the extra Biblical language if Paul did not believe that Jesus was the “Word that was with God and the Word that was God” and that same “Word” that became (ginomai) flesh in John 1:1, 14.”God was not made a man.
Jesus is the Son of the living God.
God was in him reconciling the world to himself.Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 15 2009,15:43) Hi WJ,
You said
“Why all the extra Biblical language if Paul did not believe that Jesus was the “Word that was with God and the Word that was God” and that same “Word” that became (ginomai) flesh in John 1:1, 14.”God was not made a man.
Jesus is the Son of the living God.
God was in him reconciling the world to himself.
Hi NHSo you believe that the Word that was God and was God, is the Father that was made flesh?
Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 15 2009,19:01) Hi 94,
God was indeed manifested in the flesh of Jesus.
Hi Nick:Yes, God was in Christ, and we have seen the attributes of God manifest through the works that Jesus did in obedience to God our Father, but God does not need to justified. Jesus was justified when he was declared not guilty and raised again from the dead.
Quote
2 Corinthians 5:18-19 (King James Version)18And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
19To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
Quote John 14:7If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him. 8Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?
10Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
Quote Hebrews 1:2-3 (King James Version) 2Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:
From Romans:
Quote 1Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, 2(Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)
3Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
4And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (WorshippingJesus @ July 15 2009,19:48) Quote (942767 @ July 14 2009,22:16) Hi datguy: 1 Timothy 3:16 in the KJV states:
Quote 16And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory This verse is speaking about godliness, and is undoubtedly speaking about Jesus. Why the KJV translates this verse “God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit..” is beyond me. God does not have to justified in the Spirit. I read that some manuscripts have it this way. The Greek interlinear has it “who” where God is used in this verse.
The NASB has it:
Quote 16By common confession, great is (AF)the mystery of godliness:
He who was (AG)revealed in the flesh,
Was (AH)vindicated in the Spirit,
(AI)Seen by angels,
(AJ)Proclaimed among the nations,
(AK)Believed on in the world,
(AL)Taken up in glory.This in my opinion is the better of the two translations, that is between KJV and this one.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Hi 94But what is the “mystery” of Jesus being revealed in the flesh?
The NIV puts it this way…
Beyond all question, the mystery of godliness is great: He* appeared in a body,* was vindicated by the Spirit, was seen by angels, was preached among the nations, was believed on in the world, was taken up in glory. 1 Tim 3:16
Footnotes:
* Some manuscripts God
* Or in the fleshThis confirms what Paul says in Phil 2:6-10 when he says…
“Who, being in very nature (morphē) God“, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature (morphē)
of a servant, “being (ginomai) made (ginomai) in human likeness“. And being found in appearance (schēma) as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death- even death on a cross! Phil 2:6-8Why all the extra Biblical language if Paul did not believe that Jesus was the “Word that was with God and the Word that was God” and that same “Word” that became (ginomai) flesh in John 1:1, 14.
“morphē” Strong's G3444
1) the form by which a person or thing strikes the vision
2) external appearance“ginomai” Strong's G1096
1) to become, i.e. to come into existence, begin to be, receive being2) to become, i.e. to come to pass, happen
a) of events
3) to arise, appear in history, come upon the stage
a) of men appearing in public
4) to be made, finished
a) of miracles, to be performed, wrought
5) to become, be made
“schēma” Strong's G4976
1) the habitus, as comprising everything in a person which strikes the senses, the figure, bearing, discourse, actions, manner of life etc.Jesus clearly said…
For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. John 6:38
Read a little further and Jesus says…
Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father. John 6:46
When did he see the Father? Before he came down from heaven.
Or else John is lying when he said in two other places that no man has seen the Father!
Then Jesus wanted to make sure they understood where he came from so he says…
What if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before! John 6:62
Now Jesus has returned to his previous Glory that he shared with the Father before the beginning of the creation.
And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began. John 17:5
But I await for all the oppologetics and inference forced on these text to explain away what is so obviously clear.
If a child was to read these scriptures they would say Jesus came from heaven, “literrally”!
Blessings WJ
Hi WJ:I believe that I answered most of your comments in my post to Nick.
Jesus is the Word of God that came from heaven. Prophetically, he is the promised child, the promised Messiah, from heaven in that he was conceived of the Holy Ghost, and he is the Word of God, the bread of life which came from God to him to humanity.
Hebrews 1-2 states that God has spoken to humanity through His Son, and in John 14 Jesus states that we have seen the Father through the works that he did in obedience to God, and so, yes Jesus is the Word of God. He is the Son of the Living God and he obeyed the Word of God that God spoke through him without sin even unto death on the cross.
Who a person is is defined by the life that person lives, and Romans 1 states of Jesus:
Quote 1Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, 2(Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)
3Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
4And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:
And from Hebrews:
Quote 8But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. 9Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (942767 @ July 15 2009,14:16) Hi datguy: 1 Timothy 3:16 in the KJV states:
Quote 16And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory This verse is speaking about godliness, and is undoubtedly speaking about Jesus. Why the KJV translates this verse “God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit..” is beyond me. God does not have to justified in the Spirit. I read that some manuscripts have it this way. The Greek interlinear has it “who” where God is used in this verse.
The NASB has it:
Quote 16By common confession, great is (AF)the mystery of godliness:
He who was (AG)revealed in the flesh,
Was (AH)vindicated in the Spirit,
(AI)Seen by angels,
(AJ)Proclaimed among the nations,
(AK)Believed on in the world,
(AL)Taken up in glory.This in my opinion is the better of the two translations, that is between KJV and this one.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Marty,
Did you know that we have two Greek texts? The KJV is based on the Received Text which says “God was manifested in the flesh.” The NASB is based in the NU text which says “Who was manifested in the flesh.” It makes no difference because God is the antecedent of “Who.”Marty said:
Quote God does not have to justified in the Spirit. Jesus did not have to be justified in the spirit either because He was sinless. So your argument fails.
thinker
Marty said:
Quote Yes, God was in Christ, and we have seen the attributes of God manifest through the works that Jesus did in obedience to God our Father, but God does not need to justified. Jesus was justified when he was declared not guilty and raised again from the dead. Marty,
Jesus did not need to be justified either because He was sinless. Your argument fails.thinker
Hi WJ,
Does scripture say Jesus shared the Father's glory or did you add that bit? [Jn1.14]
No mention of sharing the glory of the Father in that verse.
The thoughts Paul had we are not privy to.Quote (thethinker @ July 17 2009,07:47) Marty said: Quote Yes, God was in Christ, and we have seen the attributes of God manifest through the works that Jesus did in obedience to God our Father, but God does not need to justified. Jesus was justified when he was declared not guilty and raised again from the dead. Marty,
Jesus did not need to be justified either because He was sinless. Your argument fails.thinker
Hi thethinker:Yes, the judge, God Almighty, said Jesus was sinless after he was tempted every way and did not yield unto temptation, but obeyed the Word of God even unto death on the cross.
Quote Hbr 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
Hbr 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;If Jesus did not have to justified either and God definitely does not have to be justified in the Spirit, then why does the scripture state: “God was manifest in the flesh, JUSTIFED IN THE SPIRIT…”
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (942767 @ July 17 2009,10:01) Quote (thethinker @ July 17 2009,07:47) Marty said: Quote Yes, God was in Christ, and we have seen the attributes of God manifest through the works that Jesus did in obedience to God our Father, but God does not need to justified. Jesus was justified when he was declared not guilty and raised again from the dead. Marty,
Jesus did not need to be justified either because He was sinless. Your argument fails.thinker
Hi thethinker:Yes, the judge, God Almighty, said Jesus was sinless after he was tempted every way and did not yield unto temptation, but obeyed the Word of God even unto death on the cross.
Quote Hbr 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
Hbr 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;If Jesus did not have to justified either and God definitely does not have to be justified in the Spirit, then why does the scripture state: “God was manifest in the flesh, JUSTIFED IN THE SPIRIT…”
Love in Christ,
Marty
Marty,
It simply means that He was justified in the claims He made of Himself. He claimed He was the Son of God. The resurrection “justified” His claim that He indeed was. Paul was not saying that Christ was justified of sin for He had no sin. I was trying to show you that the way you apply the word “justified” was wrong. God did not need to be justified of sin. Neither did Christ for He had no sin. Christ was “justified” in the sense that His claims were proven true by His resurrection.thinker
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