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The question I have is “are demons immaterial or do they walk according to a certain spirit? For example a ministering spirit can be a human being who lives according to the spirit of ministration while an immaterial being those ministers can also be called a ministering spirit.
1 King 22:19-23(NIV) reads:
Quote Micaiah continued, “Therefore hear the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne with all the multitudes of heaven standing around him on his right and on his left. And the LORD said, ‘Who will entice Ahab into attacking Ramoth Gilead and going to his death there?’
“One suggested this, and another that. Finally, a spirit came forward, stood before the LORD and said, ‘I will entice him.’
“‘By what means?’ the LORD asked.
“‘I will go out and be a deceiving spirit in the mouths of all his prophets,’ he said.
“‘You will succeed in enticing him,’ said the LORD. ‘Go and do it.’
“So now the LORD has put a deceiving spirit in the mouths of all these prophets of yours. The LORD has decreed disaster for you.”
Here are some points I have gleaned from studying 1 King 22:19-23. This passage is also repeated word for word in 2 Chronicles 18-22(NIV).
Point 1: The multitudes of heaven include spirits.
Point 2: One of these spirits volunteers to become a lying spirit in the mouth of a false prophet.
Point 3: The spirit of a false prophet is evil.
Acts 19:13-16(NIV) reads:
Quote Some Jews who went around driving out evil spirits tried to invoke the name of the Lord Jesus over those who were demon-possessed. They would say, “In the name of the Jesus whom Paul preaches, I command you to come out.” Seven sons of Sceva, a Jewish chief priest, were doing this. One day the evil spirit answered them, “Jesus I know, and Paul I know about, but who are you?” Then the man who had the evil spirit jumped on them and overpowered them all. He gave them such a beating that they ran out of the house naked and bleeding.
Here are some points I have gleaned from studying Acts 19:13-16.
Point 1: Evil spirits can be exercised.
Point 2: Those that contain evil spirits are said to be demon possessed.
Point 3: Evil spirits can turn on those who lack the authority of God.
Pierre,
I am not sure as I appreciate input from others and from scripture. I am certain God is already giving me what he knows I need in my search. At the present time I am like a wave on the sea going one way then another. This is a poor place to be.
Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 10 2011,02:43) Pierre, I am not sure as I appreciate input from others and from scripture. I am certain God is already giving me what he knows I need in my search. At the present time I am like a wave on the sea going one way then another. This is a poor place to be.
Kerwindo you read what you saying ??
so why is it that you ask any of us for commenting on what you have already fully received from God himself.???
are you a deceiver Kerwin
Pierre
Pierre,
God works in the ways he chooses and not in the way I or you choose. If God chooses to reveal an insight or show me an error in my doctrine through another who am I to to say no to him.
In this issue I am not certain.
Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 08 2011,17:40) The question I have is “are demons immaterial or do they walk according to a certain spirit? For example a ministering spirit can be a human being who lives according to the spirit of ministration while an immaterial being those ministers can also be called a ministering spirit. 1 King 22:19-23(NIV) reads:
Quote Micaiah continued, “Therefore hear the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne with all the multitudes of heaven standing around him on his right and on his left. And the LORD said, ‘Who will entice Ahab into attacking Ramoth Gilead and going to his death there?’
“One suggested this, and another that. Finally, a spirit came forward, stood before the LORD and said, ‘I will entice him.’
“‘By what means?’ the LORD asked.
“‘I will go out and be a deceiving spirit in the mouths of all his prophets,’ he said.
“‘You will succeed in enticing him,’ said the LORD. ‘Go and do it.’
“So now the LORD has put a deceiving spirit in the mouths of all these prophets of yours. The LORD has decreed disaster for you.”
Here are some points I have gleaned from studying 1 King 22:19-23. This passage is also repeated word for word in 2 Chronicles 18-22(NIV).
Point 1: The multitudes of heaven include spirits.
Point 2: One of these spirits volunteers to become a lying spirit in the mouth of a false prophet.
Point 3: The spirit of a false prophet is evil.
Acts 19:13-16(NIV) reads:
Quote Some Jews who went around driving out evil spirits tried to invoke the name of the Lord Jesus over those who were demon-possessed. They would say, “In the name of the Jesus whom Paul preaches, I command you to come out.” Seven sons of Sceva, a Jewish chief priest, were doing this. One day the evil spirit answered them, “Jesus I know, and Paul I know about, but who are you?” Then the man who had the evil spirit jumped on them and overpowered them all. He gave them such a beating that they ran out of the house naked and bleeding.
Here are some points I have gleaned from studying Acts 19:13-16.
Point 1: Evil spirits can be exercised.
Point 2: Those that contain evil spirits are said to be demon possessed.
Point 3: Evil spirits can turn on those who lack the authority of God.
“Demons” are spirit beings, no different in their make up as are angels, except that they are “devils”, because they followed Satan in his rebellion against God.
Angels are God's messengers, and will materialize as humans when necessary to deliver a message from God.
Devils are deceivers, and will appear in a ghostly form of a dead person, but will not materialize, meaning, will not take on a human body.Georg
George,
Thank you for what you have stated. I am searching scriptures to discover if scripture states the same thing. It does seem that scriptures are immaterial beings but there is the possibility they are material ministering spirits or similar material spirits.
I am looking for a solid scriptureal connection between demons and fallen angels.
kerwin
Jud 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
These angels are the once that came down from heaven, and married woman, as you read about in Gen. 6. Their first estate was heaven. They are not demons or devils you read about in the gospels, the once Jesus drove out. demons, or devils are the angels that followed Lucifer/Satan in his rebellion against God.
Rev 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars (angels) of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
Jesus told Nicodemus, a spirit is like the wind, like the air; meaning? invisible.
Like I said, you can't study what you can't see.
Georg
Georg,
The Beareans were said to be noble because the tested the spirit of what Paul taught against what scripture stated. I have stated my intention is to find out what scripture states about these things.
Your refer to Genesis 6:4 as if it speaks of angels and yet it does not explicitly state “angels” in that verse nor does the context of Genesis 6 nor previous chapter give the idea it is speaking of angels. What it does state is that the sons of God went to the daughters of man and had children by them. It is true that some scriptures call angels the sons of God but it is also true that scripture call those the people of God the children of God, Deuteronomy 14:1. The children of man and not the children of God for they do as their fathers do and not as God does.
Genesis 4 and 5 speak of two line of humanity that existed prior to the flood one line is the line of Seth and the other is the line of Cain. The line of Cain is not the line that called on the name of the Lord. It is the line of Seth that calls on the name of the Lord as scripture states it was at the time that line started that man began calling on the name of the Lord.
In addition to this contexts and related facts intermarriage between God’s people and those who are not is people is forbidden at all times as Belial and God do not merge.
The only fall of angels I know of that is spoken of in scripture is the one mentioned in Revelations 12:4.
Jesus was teaching about the Holy Spirit and the corrupt spirit of man when he was teaching Nicodemus about being born again. Those are not an angel or a demon.
Some References:
Genesis 6(NIV) reads:
Quote The Nephilim were on the earth in those days—and also afterward—when the sons of God went to the daughters of humans and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown.
Deuteronomy 14:1(NIV) reads:
Quote You are the children of the LORD your God. Do not cut yourselves or shave the front of your heads for the dead,
Genesis 4:17-22(NIV) reads:
Quote Cain made love to his wife, and she became pregnant and gave birth to Enoch. Cain was then building a city, and he named it after his son Enoch. To Enoch was born Irad, and Irad was the father of Mehujael, and Mehujael was the father of Methushael, and Methushael was the father of Lamech.
Lamech married two women, one named Adah and the other Zillah. Adah gave birth to Jabal; he was the father of those who live in tents and raise livestock. His brother’s name was Jubal; he was the father of all who play stringed instruments and pipes. Zillah also had a son, Tubal-Cain, who forged all kinds of tools out of bronze and iron. Tubal-Cain’s sister was Naamah.Genesis 5:1-32(NIV) reads:
Quote This is the written account of Adam’s family line.
When God created mankind, he made them in the likeness of God. He created them male and female and blessed them. And he named them “Mankind” when they were created.
When Adam had lived 130 years, he had a son in his own likeness, in his own image; and he named him Seth. After Seth was born, Adam lived 800 years and had other sons and daughters. Altogether, Adam lived a total of 930 years, and then he died.
When Seth had lived 105 years, he became the father of Enosh. 7 After he became the father of Enosh, Seth lived 807 years and had other sons and daughters. Altogether, Seth lived a total of 912 years, and then he died.
When Enosh had lived 90 years, he became the father of Kenan. After he became the father of Kenan, Enosh lived 815 years and had other sons and daughters. Altogether, Enosh lived a total of 905 years, and then he died.
When Kenan had lived 70 years, he became the father of Mahalalel. After he became the father of Mahalalel, Kenan lived 840 years and had other sons and daughters. Altogether, Kenan lived a total of 910 years, and then he died.
When Mahalalel had lived 65 years, he became the father of Jared. After he became the father of Jared, Mahalalel lived 830 years and had other sons and daughters. Altogether, Mahalalel lived a total of 895 years, and then he died.
When Jared had lived 162 years, he became the father of Enoch. After he became the father of Enoch, Jared lived 800 years and had other sons and daughters. Altogether, Jared lived a total of 962 years, and then he died.
When Enoch had lived 65 years, he became the father of Methuselah. After he became the father of Methuselah, Enoch walked faithfully with God 300 years and had other sons and daughters. Altogether, Enoch lived a total of 365 years. Enoch walked faithfully with God; then he was no more, because God took him away.
When Methuselah had lived 187 years, he became the father of Lamech. After he became the father of Lamech, Methuselah lived 782 years and had other sons and daughters. Altogether, Methuselah lived a total of 969 years, and then he died.
When Lamech had lived 182 years, he had a son. He named him Noah[c] and said, “He will comfort us in the labor and painful toil of our hands caused by the ground the LORD has cursed.” After Noah was born, Lamech lived 595 years and had other sons and daughters. Altogether, Lamech lived a total of 777 years, and then he died.
After Noah was 500 years old, he became the father of Shem, Ham and Japheth.
kerwin
This is what the Bereans did.
Act 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all “”readiness of mind””, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
Who do you suppose these sons were?
Job 38:4 ¶ Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
Job 38:7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
Where in the Bible do you find any restriction for a man and a woman, not to marry?
Do some research in your Bible, you will find that, in the OT, the “Sons of God” always refer to angels, and the “sons of men”, always refer to men.
Do you really think that Adam and Eve only had three children? Abel, Cain, and Seth? where did the wife of Cain come from, or Seth for that matter?“””In addition to this contexts and related facts intermarriage between God’s people and those who are not is people is forbidden at all times as Belial and God do not merge.”””
This was the only reason why Israelite's were not to marry woman from other nation; but, were did those nations come from?
“””The only fall of angels I know of that is spoken of in scripture is the one mentioned in Revelations 12:4.””
These are the angels that followed Satan in his rebellion against God. Were they locked up in a prison? Is not Satan and his devils roaming the earth, and deceiving people?
So who are these angels?Jud 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
2Pe 2:4 ¶ For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
Georg
George,
God’s sons are his children through the spirit. His sons demonstrate they are his sons by their fruit which is faith. All the children of Israel were declared to be God’s covenant but those who demonstrate their unbelief through the fruit of wickedness show themselves instead to have no part of God as they violate their covenant with him. The sons of Seth appear to be the ones that call on the name of the Lord since they are mentioned in the same area of scripture as where it states mankind begins to call on the name of the Lord. They are also mentioned a second time to show they are the descendants of Adam. The line of Cain appears before the statement that at this time mankind begins to call on the name of the Lord and they are not honored by being called the decedents of Adam though they too are such. Given that evidence it appears the sons of Seth to be the sons of God by their belief while the sons of Cain do not.
I already quoted one scripture where the people of Israel are called the children of God. There are at least two psalms where they are referred to as gods, i.e. children of God. I believe as least one prophet was called a son of God. I hope to get back to you on the addresses of these and other such scriptures are. Paul speaks of the children of Israel’s adoption of sonship in Romans 9:4.
I will check but I believe scripture testifies that Adam and Eve had other sons and daughters as well as the three sons. I am not even sure Cain is the oldest as he may have originally been the one slated as Adam’s heir but was disowned after murdering his brother. The evidence seems to show he was disowned by his father as well as by God.
The men of Israel were forbidden to marry foreign women because it was feared that they might be enticed into worshipping the false God’s of their wives; Exodus 34:15-16, Ezra 10:11, and Ezra 9:2. This ban does not seem to include foreign women who worship God and God only as foreign women who were commended buy God for their faith are numbered among Jesus’ ancestors.
I am sorry but my knowledge about the fall of angels is limited so I cannot cover the issue very extensively at this time. I plan on taking your points into consideration when learning more from scripture. You do seem to have a good point that the fallen angels cannot both be bound and roaming the earth but I also know that scripture uses the bound in darkness idea figuratively in at least one case. Still Revelations seems to speak of angels that are literally bound.
References:
Romans 9:4(NIV) reads:
Quote the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption to sonship; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises.
Exodus 34:15-16(NIV) reads:
Quote “Be careful not to make a treaty with those who live in the land; for when they prostitute themselves to their gods and sacrifice to them, they will invite you and you will eat their sacrifices. And when you choose some of their daughters as wives for your sons and those daughters prostitute themselves to their gods, they will lead your sons to do the same.
Ezra 10:11(NIV) reads:
Quote Now honor the LORD, the God of your ancestors, and do his will. Separate yourselves from the peoples around you and from your foreign wives.”
Ezra 9:2(NIV) reads:
Quote They have taken some of their daughters as wives for themselves and their sons, and have mingled the holy race with the peoples around them. And the leaders and officials have led the way in this unfaithfulness.”
kerwin
You say, the sons of Seth, what about the sons of Enosh; the sons of Kenan, Mahalalel, Jared, Enoch, Methuselah, Lamech, or Noah?
What you say is what you heard some one else say, not because you have proven it to yourself.
The angels that “will” be bound in Revelation, “are” Satan and his devils.
Look at these scriptures.
Gen 5:4 And the days of Adam after he had begotten Seth were eight hundred years: and he begat “”sons and daughters””:
Gen 5:7 And Seth lived after he begat Enos eight hundred and seven years, and begat “”sons and daughters””:
Gen 5:10 And Enos lived after he begat Cainan eight hundred and fifteen years, and begat “”sons and daughters””: etc. They all had “sons and daughters”.
Now look at this scripture.
Gen 4:17 And Cain knew “”his wife””; and she conceived, and bare Enoch: and he builded a city, and called the name of the city, after the name of his son, Enoch.
Where do you suppose Cain got his wife from; it was one of his “sisters”.
Brother married sister, how else could they have increased in numbers?
So, to say that Seth was the godly line, and Cain was the ungodly line, is foolish thinking.
Why did God destroy his creation? answer;Gen 6:12 And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for “”all flesh”” had corrupted his way upon the earth.
How did “all flesh” become corrupt? answer;
Gen 6:2 That the “”sons of God”” saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.
Why does it say, “sons of God”, and “daughters of men”?
What is so unusual for the sons of men, to look at woman, and marrying them? Isn't that what God said a man should do?Gen 2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
I can find no other restriction for a man looking for a wife.
So, how did “all flesh” become corrupt? because, the “”sons of God”” saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives. These “sons of God” were angels, they left their first estate, Jude 6. By marrying woman, the angels created hybrids, giants; because of their size and strength they became very violent. That is the reason God destroyed them all by a flood.
Georg
Georg,
The sons of Seth are the descendants of Seth and scripture lays out that line beginning with Seth and not with Enosh, Kenan, Mahalalel, Jared, Enoch, Methuselah, Lamech, or Noah. That line is explicitly called the descendents of Adam while Cain’s line is not. About Cain it is instead written “So Cain went out from the LORD’s presence”. Scripture lists seven generations of Cain’s line beginning with Cain himself and then goes on to speak of Seth being born and then his son. After mentioning Enosh’s birth it states “At that time people began to call on the name of the LORD” and then begins Seth’s line again including the details of how old they were before fathering their “first” born and how long they lived after that before they either died or were not; the exceptions being Noah and his sons who had not yet died at that time.
I listen to others but if what they state does not agree with God then I reject it as false. I have just pointed out what scripture has brought me to understand on these subjects. If you see a error then let me know and I will consider what you say and test its spirit.
It is true that incest is now a sin but it is also true that God obviously intended incest to occur at first or he would have created more than two human beings. I would thus conclude that it was not a sin at first but as the genetic pool weakened the risks now associated with incest increased thus making it an act of contempt toward one’s offspring. An alternative is that it could simply be that Seth was not accountable for the sin he did. I favor the earlier. That which makes a person a son of God is that they believe God. From that faith a will come obedience to God though without the Spirit as a counselor compulsion and ignorance remain obstacles to true righteousness.
“All flesh”, aka mortals, is a broad answer as Noah, his wife, and sons as well as their wives were credited with righteousness and thus obviously exceptions to the rule. Corruption is wickedness and as I mentioned previously, marriage between a believer and a non-believer is considered a sin.
Revelations 9:1-11 is speaking of a host of demons and their King the “Angel” Abaddon aka Apollyon and Destroyer. ‘
Revelations 9:13-21 speaks of four bound angels and their hosts that are let free.References:
Genesis 4:15-26(NIV) reads:
Quote But the LORD said to him, “Not so; anyone who kills Cain will suffer vengeance seven times over.” Then the LORD put a mark on Cain so that no one who found him would kill him. So Cain went out from the LORD’s presence and lived in the land of Nod, east of Eden.
Cain made love to his wife, and she became pregnant and gave birth to Enoch. Cain was then building a city, and he named it after his son Enoch. To Enoch was born Irad, and Irad was the father of Mehujael, and Mehujael was the father of Methushael, and Methushael was the father of Lamech.
Lamech married two women, one named Adah and the other Zillah. Adah gave birth to Jabal; he was the father of those who live in tents and raise livestock. His brother’s name was Jubal; he was the father of all who play stringed instruments and pipes. Zillah also had a son, Tubal-Cain, who forged all kinds of tools out of bronze and iron. Tubal-Cain’s sister was Naamah.
Lamech said to his wives,
“Adah and Zillah, listen to me;
wives of Lamech, hear my words.
I have killed a man for wounding me,
a young man for injuring me.
If Cain is avenged seven times,
then Lamech seventy-seven times.”
Adam made love to his wife again, and she gave birth to a son and named him Seth, saying, “God has granted me another child in place of Abel, since Cain killed him.” Seth also had a son, and he named him Enosh.
At that time people began to call on the name of the LORD.Revelations 9:1-21(NIV) reads:
Quote
The fifth angel sounded his trumpet, and I saw a star that had fallen from the sky to the earth. The star was given the key to the shaft of the Abyss. When he opened the Abyss, smoke rose from it like the smoke from a gigantic furnace. The sun and sky were darkened by the smoke from the Abyss. And out of the smoke locusts came down on the earth and were given power like that of scorpions of the earth. They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any plant or tree, but only those people who did not have the seal of God on their foreheads. They were not allowed to kill them but only to torture them for five months. And the agony they suffered was like that of the sting of a scorpion when it strikes. During those days people will seek death but will not find it; they will long to die, but death will elude them.
The locusts looked like horses prepared for battle. On their heads they wore something like crowns of gold, and their faces resembled human faces. Their hair was like women’s hair, and their teeth were like lions’ teeth. They had breastplates like breastplates of iron, and the sound of their wings was like the thundering of many horses and chariots rushing into battle. They had tails with stingers, like scorpions, and in their tails they had power to torment people for five months. They had as king over them the angel of the Abyss, whose name in Hebrew is Abaddon and in Greek is Apollyon (that is, Destroyer).
The first woe is past; two other woes are yet to come.
The sixth angel sounded his trumpet, and I heard a voice coming from the four horns of the golden altar that is before God. It said to the sixth angel who had the trumpet, “Release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates.” And the four angels who had been kept ready for this very hour and day and month and year were released to kill a third of mankind. The number of the mounted troops was twice ten thousand times ten thousand. I heard their number.
The horses and riders I saw in my vision looked like this: Their breastplates were fiery red, dark blue, and yellow as sulfur. The heads of the horses resembled the heads of lions, and out of their mouths came fire, smoke and sulfur. A third of mankind was killed by the three plagues of fire, smoke and sulfur that came out of their mouths. The power of the horses was in their mouths and in their tails; for their tails were like snakes, having heads with which they inflict injury.
The rest of mankind who were not killed by these plagues still did not repent of the work of their hands; they did not stop worshiping demons, and idols of gold, silver, bronze, stone and wood—idols that cannot see or hear or walk. Nor did they repent of their murders, their magic arts, their sexual immorality or their thefts.kerwin
Only God's Holy Spirit can make you understand; all I can do is help you, I can do no more.
It is not my job, or responsibility, to convince you.
Do what James admonishes us to do.Jam 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
Here is what Jesus said.
Luk 11:13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?
Georg
Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 07 2012,10:16) Hi KW,
Demons are of earth.
The heavenly spirits are of heaven.
Nick;I hold that at least some demons are corporeal just like their non-fallen brethren.
As far as I can tell demons are fallen angels.
There is no need for a demon to be non corporeal as the spirits they live through and manipulate men by are non-corporeal.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 07 2012,15:53) Hi KW,
Angels fall during rev 12. But before then?
Can ANGELS inhabit men??
Nick,At the latest the Devil fell from heaven was when the serpent of old fell from the Garden. We also know that Scripture calls him the “God” of this world.
It also sounds like he was cast down by the human brethren using the blood of the Lamb.
That sounds like two separate wars.
There seems to be more than one satan.
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