- This topic is empty.
- AuthorPosts
- June 20, 2010 at 4:02 am#198625ProclaimerParticipant
1 John 5:20
We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true—even in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.Some people say that this verse is saying that Jesus is the true God spoken of in scripture. But if that was the case, it would seriously contradict the following scripture:
John 17:3
Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.Anyway, if we look at the first verse (1 John 5:20) closely.
We should read what it is actually saying instead of automatically defaulting to a predefined doctrine such as the Trinity.
Ask yourself this, “The son of God came to give us understanding of who?”.
The answer is, His Father (God).
And we are in God and his son Jesus Christ.
Remember that Jesus didn't come in his own name. It was God that sent him. He didn't send himself.
The true God is the Father just as John 17:3 says. If you doubt this, you doubt Jesus, or you doubt the one who penned it as not what Jesus said.
June 20, 2010 at 4:25 am#198641LightenupParticipantt8,
Quote 1 John 5:20
We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true—even in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.Some people say that this verse is saying that Jesus is the true God spoken of in scripture. But if that was the case, it would seriously contradict the following scripture:
John 17:3
Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.Rom 6:23
23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
NASUJohn 3:36
36 “He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”
NASUJohn 3:16-18
16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
17 “For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.
18 “He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
NASUJohn 6:40
40 “For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”
NASUJohn 11:25-26
25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies,
26 and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?”
NASUt8, I do believe that the one true God (the Father) apart from His Son is still the one true God and there is no salvation for us, therefore no eternal life. The one true God together with His Son is the one True God that can give us eternal life…through His Son. His Son is eternal life. Together, we have the 'one true God' (the Father) and 'eternal life' (the Son.) That is how I understand it.
June 20, 2010 at 4:28 am#198642ProclaimerParticipantIf we read 1 John 5:17 as saying that the true God is Jesus Christ, then John 17:3 would go like this:
We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him (Jesus Christ) who is true–even in his Son Jesus Christ. He (Jesus Christ) is the true God and eternal life.
Words in brackets added by me.
So if you want the last verse to say, Jesus Christ is the true God and eternal life. Then you also have to say “we are in Jesus Christ who is true–even in his Son Jesus Christ.
Can you see that.
June 20, 2010 at 4:45 am#198647ProclaimerParticipantJesus said he was the truth and the life because he is the way to God.
He wasn't offering these things on his own accord. He told us that he is the way to God. He didn't say that was God.The truth and life Jesus offers us, is the truth and life from God.
June 20, 2010 at 5:04 am#198649SimplyForgivenParticipantHi T8,
Im going to post the whole chapter.
so we can all consider context.
note the very first verse says one must believe that Jesus chirst is born of God.Quote
1 John 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
2By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.3For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
4For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
5Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
6This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.
7For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
8And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
9If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.
10He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
11And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
12He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
13These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
14And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us:
15And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him.
16If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
17All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.
18We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
19And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.
20And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.
21Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.
Quote John 17
1These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:2As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
4I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
5And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
6I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
7Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.
8For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.
9I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
10And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.
11And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
12While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
13And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.
14I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
15I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
16They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
17Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
18As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
19And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
20Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
24Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
25O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.
26And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.
June 20, 2010 at 5:46 am#198653NickHassanParticipantHi SF,
No it means that
all who believe that Jesus is THE CHRIST are born of God.June 20, 2010 at 5:54 am#198655karmarieParticipantQuote (Nick Hassan @ June 20 2010,18:46) Hi SF,
No it means that
all who believe that Jesus is THE CHRIST are born of God.
Muslims believe Jesus is the Christ, does that mean they are the same as Christians?All who believe Jesus is the Son of God are born of God, who is the antichrist but he who denies the Father and the Son.
June 20, 2010 at 6:01 am#198658karmarieParticipantThe bible is written simply, so people can understand. It says Jesus is the Son of God. That doesnt mean something else. Just because Jesus spoke in Parables, it doesnt mean he called himself the Son of God but meant something else. He prayed to His Father, he spoke of His Father, who exactly Jesus was before becoming a Man, is not clear. But who He is now is what matters.
June 20, 2010 at 6:16 am#198660NickHassanParticipantHi KM,
The scriptural meaning of 'believe' goes deeper than knowledge.
Why do you call me LORD LORD and not do what i say?[Mt7]June 20, 2010 at 6:25 am#198662karmarieParticipantHi Nick.
People can have knowledge, know the scriptures to prove whatever they want to, Satan also used scripture when he was tempted, to know God is to follow only him. You can ask God things without having to learn it in scripture. Enoch walked with God, more than read anything, if he at all read anything. See?
Jesus came as the Son of God, thats what he was, he never said he was God. He never said alot of things which people try to say he meant.
Accurate knowledge is simple to understand, when people try to work out puzzles within the script, they get confused!
June 20, 2010 at 7:56 am#198673ProclaimerParticipantQuote (karmarie @ June 20 2010,16:54) Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 20 2010,18:46) Hi SF,
No it means that
all who believe that Jesus is THE CHRIST are born of God.
Muslims believe Jesus is the Christ, does that mean they are the same as Christians?All who believe Jesus is the Son of God are born of God, who is the antichrist but he who denies the Father and the Son.
They believe he is the messiah, but his mission failed because he died. They do not see Christ's death and him being the lamb that covers the sins of the world. So in the Muslim faith, others like Muhammad, would follow to complete the mission.They deny that Jesus is the son of God. This is clearly written in their book.
June 20, 2010 at 10:51 am#198695karmarieParticipantHi t8, thats exactly what I was saying, Nick said all who believe Jesus is the Christ, I said NO but Muslims do, but they deny the Son, so its All who believe Jesus is the Son of God.
June 21, 2010 at 3:14 am#198872SimplyForgivenParticipantQuote (t8 @ June 20 2010,18:56) Quote (karmarie @ June 20 2010,16:54) Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 20 2010,18:46) Hi SF,
No it means that
all who believe that Jesus is THE CHRIST are born of God.
Muslims believe Jesus is the Christ, does that mean they are the same as Christians?All who believe Jesus is the Son of God are born of God, who is the antichrist but he who denies the Father and the Son.
They believe he is the messiah, but his mission failed because he died. They do not see Christ's death and him being the lamb that covers the sins of the world. So in the Muslim faith, others like Muhammad, would follow to complete the mission.They deny that Jesus is the son of God. This is clearly written in their book.
Thats not correct t8Muslims do not believe Jesus died, but that he switched his face with someone else.
June 21, 2010 at 11:08 am#198921ProclaimerParticipantYes, actually you may be right there. I think they believe that Allah made it appear that Jesus died on the cross and that it is a lie that Jesus died to atone for our sins.
June 21, 2010 at 11:14 am#198925SimplyForgivenParticipantQuote (t8 @ June 21 2010,16:08) Yes, actually you may be right there. I think they believe that Allah made it appear that Jesus died on the cross and that it is a lie that Jesus died to atone for our sins.
Ya they believe Jesus is divine, but not the Son of God literally.
more like a prophet.Check out the debate we have with Bod in the Quran vs the Bible thread.
I point out some flaws that muslims have about the bible.
ITs funny because the Quran is nothing without the Bible yet the Bible continues just fine without the Quran.
The Quran believe it or not, is dependant on the bible, because for an educated muslim to interpret scripture correctly, ACCORDING to the Quran they MUST read both books to understand Allahs will.
June 21, 2010 at 3:14 pm#198939Worshipping JesusParticipantHi All
t8 has placed himself in opposition to the cream of Greek Scholarship.
And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us insight to know him who is true, and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. “This one is the true God and eternal life. 1 John 5:20 NET
The NET Bible is a completely new translation of the Bible with 60,932 translators’ notes! It was completed by more than 25 scholars – experts in the original biblical languages – who worked directly from the best currently available Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek texts.
The pronoun This one(οὗτος, Joutos) refers to a person, but it is far from clear whether it should be understood as a reference (1) to God the Father or (2) to Jesus Christ. R. E. Brown (Epistles of John [AB], 625) comments, “I John, which began with an example of stunning grammatical obscurity in the prologue, continues to the end to offer us examples of unclear grammar.” The nearest previous antecedent is Jesus Christ, immediately preceding, but on some occasions when this has been true the pronoun still refers to God (see 1 John 2:3). The first predicate which follows This one in 5:20, the true God, is a description of God the Father used by Jesus in John 17:3, and was used in the preceding clause of the present verse to refer to God the Father (him who is true). Yet the second predicate of This one in 5:20, eternal life, appears to refer to Jesus, because although the Father possesses “life” (John 5:26, 6:57) just as Jesus does (John 1:4, 6:57, 1 John 5:11), “life” is never predicated of the Father elsewhere, while it is predicated of Jesus in John 11:25 and 14:6 (a self-predication by Jesus). “If This one in 5:20 is understood as referring to Jesus, it forms an inclusion with the prologue, which introduced the reader to “the eternal life which was with the Father and was manifested to us.” Thus it appears best to understand the pronoun This one in 5:20 as a reference to Jesus Christ. The christological affirmation which results is striking, but certainly not beyond the capabilities of the author (see John 1:1 and 20:28): This One [Jesus Christ] is the true God and eternal life“. NET
t8 often accuses others that disagree with his teachings as being proud and stubborn, but what is it when you blatantly deny the obvious?
WJ
June 21, 2010 at 4:11 pm#198944KangarooJackParticipantQuote (WorshippingJesus @ June 22 2010,02:14) Hi All t8 has placed himself in opposition to the cream of Greek Scholarship.
And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us insight to know him who is true, and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. “This one is the true God and eternal life. 1 John 5:20 NET
The NET Bible is a completely new translation of the Bible with 60,932 translators’ notes! It was completed by more than 25 scholars – experts in the original biblical languages – who worked directly from the best currently available Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek texts.
The pronoun This one(οὗτος, Joutos) refers to a person, but it is far from clear whether it should be understood as a reference (1) to God the Father or (2) to Jesus Christ. R. E. Brown (Epistles of John [AB], 625) comments, “I John, which began with an example of stunning grammatical obscurity in the prologue, continues to the end to offer us examples of unclear grammar.” The nearest previous antecedent is Jesus Christ, immediately preceding, but on some occasions when this has been true the pronoun still refers to God (see 1 John 2:3). The first predicate which follows This one in 5:20, the true God, is a description of God the Father used by Jesus in John 17:3, and was used in the preceding clause of the present verse to refer to God the Father (him who is true). Yet the second predicate of This one in 5:20, eternal life, appears to refer to Jesus, because although the Father possesses “life” (John 5:26, 6:57) just as Jesus does (John 1:4, 6:57, 1 John 5:11), “life” is never predicated of the Father elsewhere, while it is predicated of Jesus in John 11:25 and 14:6 (a self-predication by Jesus). “If This one in 5:20 is understood as referring to Jesus, it forms an inclusion with the prologue, which introduced the reader to “the eternal life which was with the Father and was manifested to us.” Thus it appears best to understand the pronoun This one in 5:20 as a reference to Jesus Christ. The christological affirmation which results is striking, but certainly not beyond the capabilities of the author (see John 1:1 and 20:28): This One [Jesus Christ] is the true God and eternal life“. NET
t8 often accuses others that disagree with his teachings as being proud and stubborn, but what is it when you blatantly deny the obvious?
WJ
Hi Keith,Yes! And Jesus is called the “Eternal Life” which was WITH the Father” (1:1). So the “Eternal Life” is personally distinct from the Father though is also called the “True God” in 5:20.
t8 ignores the progressive nature of God's revelation to us. Therefore, John 17:5 does not exclude Jesus in the denomination “Only true God” anymore then the Father would be excluded in the term “Only Master and Lord” which is said of Jesus (Jude 4).
Jack
- AuthorPosts
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.