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David,
“Breaking the Sabbath” means what John described Him doing above, “doing these things on the Sabbath.”
Likewise, “making Himself equal with God,” means what John described below with two clear examples: “For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son also gives life to whom He wishes.” And, “All will honor the Son even as they honor the Father.” This is clear equality with the Father, straight from the mouth of Jesus.
Tim
Hi Tim 2,
Only with trinity glasses can you see these things
and not hear the Lord Jesus
ascribe all power to God his Father and say
“The Father is greater than I”Dave,
With regard to “breaking the Sabbath,” Jesus said in the previous verse, “I Myself am working until now.” Exodus 20:8 says, “You shall not do any work.” So what Jesus did is a breaking of the Sabbath command, but a lawful break, because, as He says two verses later, “Whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner.” (If Jesus isn't YHWH, how can He do everything that YHWH does?) But that the Sabbath could be lawfully broken is declared in Matthew 12:5, “Or have you not read in the Law, that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple break the Sabbath and are innocent?”
Tim
Dave,
Sorry to spam on the 5:18 topic, but I have to make another point. I've heard it argued a lot on this site, “The Jews say Jesus is making Himself equal with God in 5:18, but then in 5:19 Jesus shows that He's not really equal with God.” Let's see if that's really true.
In John 5:19, Jesus says that He can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing. This would mean that Jesus is not equal to the Father if the Father did things that Jesus couldn't do, but that's not the case. In the same verse, Jesus says, “for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner.” Thus, this is actually confirmation from Jesus that He is equal to the Father! This continues in the next 4 verses, so that we have, after the “equality” claim in 5:18, the following:
1. Jesus says that whatever the Father does, the Son also does.
2. Jesus says that just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son also gives life to whom He wishes.
3. Jesus says that all will honor the Son even as they honor the Father.I'd say it's clear that Jesus is affirming His equality with the Father.
Tim
Hi Tim2,
It must be so frustrating that you cannot find the actual words you need to give validity to your theory in the mouth of Jesus.
Back to the drawing boards.Quote (Tim2 @ April 07 2007,05:31) Dave, Sorry to spam on the 5:18 topic, but I have to make another point. I've heard it argued a lot on this site, “The Jews say Jesus is making Himself equal with God in 5:18, but then in 5:19 Jesus shows that He's not really equal with God.” Let's see if that's really true.
In John 5:19, Jesus says that He can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing. This would mean that Jesus is not equal to the Father if the Father did things that Jesus couldn't do, but that's not the case. In the same verse, Jesus says, “for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner.” Thus, this is actually confirmation from Jesus that He is equal to the Father! This continues in the next 4 verses, so that we have, after the “equality” claim in 5:18, the following:
1. Jesus says that whatever the Father does, the Son also does.
2. Jesus says that just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son also gives life to whom He wishes.
3. Jesus says that all will honor the Son even as they honor the Father.I'd say it's clear that Jesus is affirming His equality with the Father.
Tim
Hi Tim2.Ok so we must be equal to Christ in that case.
Matthew 16:19
I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.But in reality God is the head of Christ.
1 Corinthians 11:3
Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.Yeshua is the image of God, so he is not the source. God is his head. Yeshua said that the Father was greater than himself”. That was from Yeshua's own mouth and I believe it because he said it.
Hi t8,
Do you do whatever the Father and the Son do?
Do you raise the dead, as the Father and the son do?
Are all mean to honor you, even as they honor the Father and the Son?
Do you make yourself equal to God?Jesus said the Father was greater than He while He was human, mortal, and about to be beaten and crucified the next day. Jesus became much less than He is in all eternity, and also much less than the Father is because He did not assert His equality with God.
Tim
Tim 3
Quote Jesus said the Father was greater than He while He was human, mortal, and about to be beaten and crucified the next day. Jesus became much less than He is in all eternity, and also much less than the Father is because He did not assert His equality with God. Tim. This is the truth that these folk are dancing around. They focus on Christ's incarnation as a man, yet they ignore the overwhelming evidence of His deity.
There has on this forum been much confusion between Christ’s mission or “office” as Messiah and that of His substance which is The Eternal God.
When Christ was to leave heaven and was to take the form of a man He did not cease to be God. He simply put aside His own divine power and was dependent on God for power. This makes Him our example to follow because we too are to depend totally on God.
Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
He had to overcome Satan while living as a man. Christ did not come to earth to show what a God can do, but what man can do when he depends on God for power. He succeeded where Adam failed.
Heb 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
Heb 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
Heb 2:18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
A human body was fashioned for Christ. A body which had sinful propensities just like ours. A body less than what Adam had, weakened by the curse of sin.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Christ condemned sin in the flesh. He resisted sin. Don’t forget that He laid aside His divine power and did not use it for His own benefit, overcoming temptation relying on God for power. We too can resist temptation if we rely on God for power. Christ was our example.
Heb 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
Heb 2:18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.Luk 4:2 (Jesus) Being forty days tempted of the devil.
Luk 4:12 And Jesus answering said unto him, It is said, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.Who was being tempted here? Jesus; The Lord thy God..
Look again!
Exo 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God::
Mar 2:28 Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.
This proves beyond doubt that the Lord of the Sabbath (Jesus) is the LORD thy God.
1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
There are many instances in the scripture where Jesus calls the Father..His God and says the Father is greater than I.
In these instances Jesus was encumbered with humanity or within the context of Him being the Messiah. Don’t forget that Christ is still ministering for us right now as our High Priest in the heavenly sanctuary. So His mission is not yet over.
Even within the Godhead each Divine Person recognise and have reverence for the other as God.
Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
The phrase “O God” is a worshipful phrase indicating the reverence each Person of the Godhead have one for another. Each recognises the other as their God. Each are willing to submit one to the other.
. Within the Godhead a plan was made for the salvation of man. It is evident that each divine Person within the Godhead takes on a different office or role. It is a pity that we too cannot learn the character and humility of God.
Jesus said.
Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.
Joh 10:31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.Joh 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
The Pharasee understood that Jesus was claiming deity and equality with God, that is why they tried to stone Him.
Jesus could have told them that they misunderstood Him, but He didn't. Jesus knew that the Pharasees understood His assertion of deity and did not correct them.
It seems that the Pharisees had better understanding of Jesus' words than the JWs.
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,Jn 1:1 says, “and the word was God”. However, before the incarnation, Jesus made a choice to submit to the Father as His head. He had to live in His humanity as a man depending on God for power. Jesus did not give up being God, He was subject to and obeying the Father while living as a man.
The Father would maintain the head position and He would become the central One to pray to. He does not minister to us in the direct way of the Son and Holy Spirit. He would not have the central focus to save mankind and to eventually be as highly exalted as the Saviour. He is self effacing in this respect.
Each member of the Godhead took on a position that was selfless to the extreme and thus revealing the character of God.
We can now understand better Christ’s statement
Mat 23:11 But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.
We can stand in awe of the great love, humility and even servanthood of the Godhead.
1Co 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
Deu 32:3 Because I will publish the name of the LORD: ascribe ye greatness unto our God.
Deu 32:4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.
1Sa 2:2 There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither is there any rock like our God.
1Sa 2:2 There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither is there any rock like our God.
Psa 78:35 And they remembered that God was their rock, and the high God their redeemer.
1Co 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.Yes! God was their Rock. Who was that Rock?
… and that Rock was Christ. (1Co 10:4)
Joh 1:
5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
Quote (Tim2 @ April 07 2007,07:00) Hi t8, Do you do whatever the Father and the Son do?
Do you raise the dead, as the Father and the son do?
Are all mean to honor you, even as they honor the Father and the Son?
Do you make yourself equal to God?Jesus said the Father was greater than He while He was human, mortal, and about to be beaten and crucified the next day. Jesus became much less than He is in all eternity, and also much less than the Father is because He did not assert His equality with God.
Tim
Hi Tim 2,
Did he shrink in power and importance towards his death?Hi Tim2
MATTHEW 12:12
“All considered, of how much more worth is a man than a sheep! So it is lawful to do a fine thing on the sabbath.””Jesus said that it is lawful to do a fine thing on the Sabbath. The law was in regard to work, labour. Teaching others about the kingdom isn't the kind of work that God had in mind. It was the lawless pharisees who put these burdens and restrictions on people. The law was supposed to be for their benefit.
JOHN 7:19
“Moses gave YOU the Law, did he not? But not one of YOU obeys the Law. Why are YOU seeking to kill me?””It was these religious leaders who had it wrong, not Jesus.
Jesus wasn't breaking God's law. He was breaking the pharisees man made added laws. (There is a word for their added rules, but I don't remember it.)
Jesus wasn't breaking God's law and nor was he making himself equal to God. This is how the ones who wanted Jesus dead reasoned. It was their opinion that we are given.
Quote Hi t8, Do you do whatever the Father and the Son do?
–Tim2
Quote 1. Jesus says that whatever the Father does, the Son also does. . . .I'd say it's clear that Jesus is affirming His equality with the Father. EPHESIANS 5:1
“Therefore, become imitators of God, as beloved children,”If we can be imitators of God, which we clearly can, or it wouldn't be asked of us, then certainly Jesus can.
“Whatever the Father does, the son does also,” you say.that word would be….imitation.
IMITATION, right?
Yes. And we're told to ….imitate… that's right.
So, if it's clear that Jesus is affirming His equality with the Father as you say, then it's also equally clear that all who imitate the Father are also affirming equality with him.
david
I suggest King David is the Key to the kingdom.Mar 12:36 For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The LORD said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool. In this David received the sure mercy of his soul shall live; (resurrection of Life}Rev 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, [and] the bright and morning star. (by king David lifted on high Not Moses or any other)
Master of the House The host of the house;Jesus is equal to this Father by all means; Isa 22:22 And the key of the house of David will I lay upon his shoulder; so he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open.
Rev 3:7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;
charity
For as much as its worth david
God is asking us in this verse to focus on TWO the Fathers PROMISE in the Son King David and on christs shoulders our Key of Eternal salvation
Isa 22:22 And the key of the house of David will I lay upon his shoulder; so he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shallBy obeying God towards both these Hosts; Now Lord of Lords; King of Kings; we find our rest even in one?
Hbr 4:7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
Hbr 4:8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.God bless
Quote david I suggest King David is the Key to the kingdom.
HI charity. A thread on this subject has just been started.
David
Quote So, if it's clear that Jesus is affirming His equality with the Father as you say, then it's also equally clear that all who imitate the Father are also affirming equality with him. David. Are you affirming equality with God?
Joh 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
Hi CB:
You say:
Luk 4:12 And Jesus answering said unto him, It is said, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.
Who was being tempted here? Jesus; The Lord thy God..
………………………………………………………………………………
………………………………………….I believe that if you will go back and read 4:9-11 you will get the meaning of Luke 4:12.
The devil was asking Jesus to jump off of the pinnicale of the temple to prove that he was the Son of God because the devil states the the Word of God states that God has given the angels charge over him essentially from getting hurt. Therefore, Jesus replies that he will not tempt God by jumping.
God Bless
Quote (david @ April 09 2007,15:57) Quote david I suggest King David is the Key to the kingdom.
HI charity. A thread on this subject has just been started.
Thanks david I wish to nail to the door the truth that opensIsa 22:21 And I will clothe him with thy robe, and strengthen him with thy girdle, and I will commit thy government into his hand: and he *shall be a father* to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and to the house of Judah.
Isa 22:24 And they shall hang upon him all the glory of his father's house, the offspring and
the issue, all vessels of small quantity, from the vessels of cups, even to all the vessels of flagons.
Isa 22:25 In that day, saith the LORD of hosts, shall the nail that is fastened in the sure place be removed, and be cut down, and fall; and the burden that [was] upon it shall be cut off: for the LORD hath spoken [it].Gone now
Quote (942767 @ April 09 2007,16:01) Hi CB: You say:
Luk 4:12 And Jesus answering said unto him, It is said, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.
Who was being tempted here? Jesus; The Lord thy God..
………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………….
I believe that if you will go back and read 4:9-11 you will get the meaning of Luke 4:12.
The devil was asking Jesus to jump off of the pinnicale of the temple to prove that he was the Son of God because the devil states the the Word of God states that God has given the angels charge over him essentially from getting hurt. Therefore, Jesus replies that he will not tempt God by jumping.
God Bless
amenJohn 18:5-6 “They answered Him, “Jesus the Nazarene.” He said to them, “I am.” And Judas also, the one who betrayed Him, was standing with them. Therefore when He said to them, “I am,” they went backwards and fell upon the ground.”
Why did they fall over backwards when Jesus used the name of Almighty God as His own: The divine name of “I AM”? And why would the soldiers fall backwards if not for the awesomeness of the words of Jesus?
Look again! How can anyone miss it?
Therefore when He said to them, I am, they went backwards and fell upon the ground.”
Jesus used the divine name I AM in reference to Himself affirming His deity.
When He did this it forced His armed assailants backward onto the ground.He was telling them that He was God, using the name Jehovah Himself had revealed to Moses at the burning bush, “I AM.” Jesus asserted His Deity.
As these words were uttered by Jesus, the mob,their wicked hearts filled with terror, staggered back; and the priests, elders, soldiers with weapons, and even Judas, dropped powerless to the ground. They could not for a moment stand upon their feet in the presence of the Divine Glory, and they fell like dead men to the ground.
Exo 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
There you are! Here is conclusive proof that Jesus is the great Jehovah, the great I AM.
See again.
The high priest knowing that the Son of the Blessed is God tried to “incriminate” Jesus by getting Him to proclaim His divinity.
Mar 14:61 Again the high priest asked him, and said unto him, Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?
Mar 14:62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
Mar 14:63 Then the high priest rent his clothes, and saith, What need we any further witnesses?
Mar 14:64 Ye have heard the blasphemy: what think ye? And they all condemned him to be guilty of death.
Jesus answered the high priest “I AM”, and claimed to be the Son of the Blessed, whom the Jews understood to be God.
The high priest accused Jesus of blasphemy because He used the name of God “I AM” as His own. When a man claims to be God it is blasphemy (See John 10:33).
Jesus could have said to the high priest, you misunderstood what I said, I did not claim to be God. But He didn't correct the high priest.
Jesus was and is the self existent and eternal Jehovah God. The high priest understood Jesus’ claim to be God and wrongly accused Him of blasphemy.
The claim of Jesus to be “sitting on the right hand of power” is a metaphor meaning that all authority and power belongs to Him. That is ALL authority!
Exo 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
Jesus the great I AM.
Here is more unmistakable proof of Christ's deity.
John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
John 8:57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am
John 8:59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.With solemn dignity Jesus answered the Pharasees, “Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.”
I AM. The name of Jehovah, given to Moses at the burning bush to express the idea of the eternal presence, had been claimed as His own by Jesus. He had announced Himself to be the self-existent God, He who had been promised to Israel,
Exo 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
Mic 5:2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.
Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Jer 23:6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD (Jehovah) OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.
Look! More scriptural evidence that Jesus is Jehovah God.
Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.
Joh 10:31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
Joh 10:32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
Joh 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.The Jews obviously understood that Jesus was claiming to be God and tried to stone Him, because the punishment for blasphemy was death by stoning according to Lev. 24:16. Jesus did not dispute their accusation. He could have but He didn't, simply because Jesus was Jehovah God. He could have set the record straight by saying to the Jews, I am not claiming to be God, you misunderstood me. But Jesus did not correct them because He was in fact claiming to be the Divine God Jehovah.
Jesus said.
John 8:24 …for if ye believe not that I am, ye shall die in your sins.Jesus Himself laid down the line – unless one believes Him for whom He says He is – the ego eimi, the great I AM – one will die in one's sins. There is no salvation in a false Christ. If we are to be united with Christ to have eternal life, then we must be united with the true Christ, not a false representation. It is out of love that Christ uttered John 8:24. We would do well to heed His words.
The Pharisees and Jehovah's Witnesses have a lot in common! They both deny the deity of Christ!
The Light was shining in darkness; but “the darkness apprehended it not.” John 1:5
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