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Adam says:
There is absolutely no connection between Exo 3.14 & John 8.58. The simplest proof of this is to look at the Greek of Exo 3.14 in the LXX. that is, the Septuagint, which is the Hebrew scriptures translated into Greek.
He says:
Exo 3:14 And God said unto Moses, ego eimi ho ohn: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, ho ohn hath sent me unto you.If Jesus was indeed identifying himself with the One in Exo 3.14; John would have recorded him saying …
“Before Abraham, ego eimi ho ohn” OR
“Before Abraham, ho ohn”Jesus said no such this!
Jesus used the phrase ego eimi to identify himself as the promised Messiah (just as he did in 4.26,8:24,28)and then makes this interesting comment:
In like manner, the man who was healed uses the same phrase to identify himself as the one who was blind.
ego eimi is equivalent to It's me!Quote David, So the Jews tried to stone Him for claiming to be the Messiah?
Yes. Definitely.
If you claimed to be the Messiah, there are certain countries that would stone you.
Other countries, you'd be put in certain institutions.
Other countries, beat up, etc.So, yes, without question.
But, there are other threads were this could be discussed.
Quote (Tim2 @ April 04 2007,08:15) David, So the Jews tried to stone Him for claiming to be the Messiah?
Tim
That's right!
In the end they crucified him because of this claim!David,
This is the John 8:58 thread. In John 8:58, the Jews tried to stone him. I'd say that's relevant.
In any event, we know why the Jews tried to stone him. “For blasphemy. And because You, being a man, make Yourself out God.” -John 10:33. I know it's another chapter, but do you really think the Jews came up with a different reason along the way?
If the Jews were going to stone Him for claiming to be the Messiah (a non-divine one), what suddenly triggered this in John 8:59? He had been claiming to be the Messiah long before He said, “I am.” How does “I am” indicate that He's the messiah?
Tim
Quote (david @ April 04 2007,08:11) Adam says: There is absolutely no connection between Exo 3.14 & John 8.58. The simplest proof of this is to look at the Greek of Exo 3.14 in the LXX. that is, the Septuagint, which is the Hebrew scriptures translated into Greek.
He says:
Exo 3:14 And God said unto Moses, ego eimi ho ohn: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, ho ohn hath sent me unto you.If Jesus was indeed identifying himself with the One in Exo 3.14; John would have recorded him saying …
“Before Abraham, ego eimi ho ohn” OR
“Before Abraham, ho ohn”Jesus said no such this!
Jesus used the phrase ego eimi to identify himself as the promised Messiah (just as he did in 4.26,8:24,28)and then makes this interesting comment:
In like manner, the man who was healed uses the same phrase to identify himself as the one who was blind.
ego eimi is equivalent to It's me!
DavidHow does Jesus claiming to be “I Am” mean to the Jews that he is the Messiah, when the Jews knew the “I Am” in Exod 3:14 as YHWY?
Quote David, This is the John 8:58 thread. In John 8:58, the Jews tried to stone him. I'd say that's relevant.
In any event, we know why the Jews tried to stone him. “For blasphemy. And because You, being a man, make Yourself out God.” -John 10:33. I know it's another chapter, but do you really think the Jews came up with a different reason along the way?
Tim, you should put less trust in what the ones who wanted to kill Jesus believed and more trust in Jesus words.
They said that he was making himself God. Yet, Jesus immediately followed this by saying that the following:JOHN 10:34-36
“Jesus answered them: “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I said: “YOU are gods”’? If he called ‘gods’ those against whom the word of God came, and yet the Scripture cannot be nullified, do YOU say to me whom the Father sanctified and dispatched into the world, ‘You blaspheme,’ because I said, I am God’s Son?”Jesus himself said that they were saying he was blaspheming because Jesus said he was “God's Son,” and hence, not God. They (THE ONES WHO WERE COMPLETELY WRONG AND FOOLISH) said that he was making himself God.
I think it better to go with Jesus' follow up words than the ones who wanted Jesus dead, don't you? ? ?Quote He had been claiming to be the Messiah long before He said, “I am.” How does “I am” indicate that He's the messiah? It doesn't in the one scripture. But there's that other scripture that is also being mentioned:
MARK 14:61-62
“But he kept silent and made no reply at all. Again the high priest began to question him and said to him: “Are you the Christ the Son of the Blessed One?” Then Jesus said: “I am; and YOU persons will see the Son of man sitting at the right hand of power and coming with the clouds of heaven.””Are you the Christ (annointed one)? I am.
Jesus saying “I am” in answer to whether he was the Christ does in fact indicate that he was the Christ (GK) or Messiah (HEB).
Quote (Cult Buster @ April 04 2007,07:51) [/quote] The issue at hand is the phrase “I am” in verse 58. The Jehovah's Witnesses have “translated” the Greek present tense (“I am”) into the English perfect tense (“I have been”) which is more consistent with their theological position that Jesus is not God in flesh.
In the Greek, the words are “ego eimi.” Literally, this is “I am.” “Ego eimi” is the present active indicative first person singular (I am), not the perfect active indicative first person singular (I have been). It would seem that the natural and correct translation into the English is “I am.” But the NWT does not translate this into the present tense. Why? I am firmly convinced it is because translating John 8:58 as “I am” would be too close to God identifying Himself as the “I am” in Exodus 3:14.
“And God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM”; and He said, “Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you,’” (Exodus 3:14).
The Jehovah's Witness will claim the NWT is legitimate since a small minority of other Bibles have translations other than “I AM” in John 8:58. But from what I have seen of these other translations, they are intended to be looser renderings of the Greek and therefore take more liberties in translation.
In fact, the overwhelming majority of Bible translations render it as I am. Here are just a few.
“Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was born, I am,” (ASV).
“Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am,” (KJV).
“Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am,” (NASB).
“I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!” (NIV).
“Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM,” (NKJV).
“Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am,” (RSV).
“Truly, truly, before Abraham was, I am,” (NLT).
“Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am,” (RSV)
“Verily, verily I say unto you, before Abraham was, I am!” (KJ21).
“Verily, verily, I say to you, Before Abraham's coming — I am,' (YLT).
“Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am,” (Darby).
“Antes que Abraham fuese, yo soy,” (Spanish) – uses “yo soy” which is “I am.”
“En vérité, en vérité, je vous le dis, avant qu'Abraham fût, je suis,” (French) “je suis” which is “I am.”“'Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.' 57The Jews therefore said to Him, 'You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?' 58Jesus said to them, 'Truly truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.' 59Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself, and went out of the temple.”
Jesus said:
Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am John 8:58“And God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM”; and He said, “Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you,’” (Exodus 3:14).
Joh 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am, ye shall die in your sins.
The Light was shining in darkness; but “the darkness apprehended it not.” John 1:5
Hi Cultbuster,Christ's reference to Abraham is to affirm his (Christ's) pre-eminence, not pre-existence. The Jews had claimed that Abraham was their father (vs. 39) and so Christ establishes his pre-eminence in the divine purpose by stating that before Abraham was, “I am”. He did not say “before Abraham was, I was” as it is frequently misread. But the Jews, like modern-day trinitarians, misunderstood Jesus. He was not claiming to be literally older in years than Abraham. This is indicated by his prior remark: “Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.” (vs. 56)
Tim
David,
Yes, when Christ is asked, “Are you the Messiah,” and he replies, “I am,” I can see how that would indicate that He's the Messiah. I fail to see where He's asked this in John 8 or 10.
Which of the “gods” in Psalm 82 is called one with the Father? Which of them is in the Father and the Father in them?
Tim
TimothyVI, Allow me to also add t8's excellent quote …
<!–QuoteBegin–t8+Mar. 26 2007,09:45.
Jesus used the phrase “ego eimi” at least twenty times and yet, in only one instance did the Jews seek to stone him (John 8:58).
Jesus said, “I am the bread of life” to a large crowd, in John.6:35-48, yet no one opposed him. In verse 41, the Jews murmured because he said, “I am (ego eimi) the bread which came down from heaven.” But in verse 42, the Jews questioned only the phrase, “I came down from heaven” and ignored “ego eimi.” The same is true of verses 51 & 52
In John 8:12, 18, 24, & 28, Jesus used “ego eimi” with Pharisees present (vs.13) and yet, no stoning. He, again, used it four times in John 10:7, 9, 11, & 14 with no stoning. Jesus said to his disciples, “that ye may believe that I am (ego eimi)” in John 13:19 without them batting an eye.
This brings us back to Jn.8:58. Why did the Jews seek to stone him on that occasion? The context of Jn.8 shows that Jesus;
[*–>
Quote (t8 @ Mar. 26 2007,09:45. Jesus used the phrase “ego eimi” at least twenty times and yet, in only one instance did the Jews seek to stone him (John 8:58).
Jesus said, “I am the bread of life” to a large crowd, in John.6:35-48, yet no one opposed him. In verse 41, the Jews murmured because he said, “I am (ego eimi) the bread which came down from heaven.” But in verse 42, the Jews questioned only the phrase, “I came down from heaven” and ignored “ego eimi.” The same is true of verses 51 & 52
In John 8:12, 18, 24, & 28, Jesus used “ego eimi” with Pharisees present (vs.13) and yet, no stoning. He, again, used it four times in John 10:7, 9, 11, & 14 with no stoning. Jesus said to his disciples, “that ye may believe that I am (ego eimi)” in John 13:19 without them batting an eye.
This brings us back to Jn.8:58. Why did the Jews seek to stone him on that occasion? The context of Jn.8 shows that Jesus;
[*)
accused the Jews of “judging after the flesh” (vs.15). - said they would die in their sins (vss.21,24).
- implied they were in bondage (vss.32,33).
- said they were servants of sin (vs.34).
- said they were out to kill him (vss. 37,40).
- implied they were spiritually deaf (vs.43,47).
- said their father was the devil (vs.44).
- said they were not of Elohim (vs.47).
- accused them of dishonoring him (vs.49).
- accused them of not knowing Yahweh (vs.55).
- accused them of lying (vs.55).
Aside from that, the Jews misunderstood Jesus words leading them to believe;
- that he accused them of being born of fornication vs.41).
- Jesus had a devil (vs.52).
- that he was exalting himself above Abraham (vs.53).
- that he saw Abraham (vs.56).
Jesus' words in verse 58 were the culmination of an encounter that was so offensive to the Jews, that they couldn't restrain themselves. They simply couldn't take it anymore so they sought to stone him, not because of two simple words, “ego eimi,” but because he was making himself out to be greater than their beloved father Abraham.
END QUOTE
PS from me (Adam)
Being the Messiah he was indeed greater than their beloved father Abraham!Quote Yes, when Christ is asked, “Are you the Messiah,” and he replies, “I am,” I can see how that would indicate that He's the Messiah. tim2, please explain that to Cult Buster for me. He believes it's a hidden message, as he does of the other instance as well.
Quote Which of the “gods” in Psalm 82 is called one with the Father?
John 17:20-22 makes it plain that “just as” Jesus is one with the Father, we are “one” or in union with each other and that they are “one” with Jesus and his Father as well.
I ask once and for all that people stop using this as proof that Jesus is his own Father. John 17:20-22 doens't allow for us to understand it this way. Please see that scripture.david
Hi David,
No Trinitarian believes that Jesus is His own Father. This is denied in the ecumenical creeds. Please don't accuse us of that again.
With regard to John 17, do you think Jesus is setting a high standard for the unity of the church or a low standard? The highest standard is the unity of God. I believe that's the standard he's setting.
Tim
Tim 2
Quote Yes, when Christ is asked, “Are you the Messiah,” and he replies, “I am,” I can see how that would indicate that He's the Messiah. Well put Tim 2!
The words “I am” does indeed identify Jesus as the Messiah and the High Priest understood that the Messiah (the Son of the Blessed) was indeed Jehovah who spoke to Moses from the burning bush.
Mar 14:61 But he held his peace, and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked him, and said unto him, Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?
Mar 14:62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
Mar 14:63 Then the high priest rent his clothes, and saith, What need we any further witnesses?
Mar 14:64 Ye have heard the blasphemy: what think ye? And they all condemned him to be guilty of death.The High priest understood that the Christ who is the Son of the Blessed is God. That is why he accused Jesus of blasphemy.
Adam Pastor
Quote TimothyVI, Allow me to also add t8's excellent quote … Quote (t8 @ Mar. 26 2007,09:45.
Jesus used the phrase “ego eimi” at least twenty times and yet, in only one instance did the Jews seek to stone him (John 8:58).
Jesus said, “I am the bread of life” to a large crowd, in John.6:35-48, yet no one opposed him. In verse 41, the Jews murmured because he said, “I am (ego eimi) the bread which came down from heaven.” But in verse 42, the Jews questioned only the phrase, “I came down from heaven” and ignored “ego eimi.” The same is true of verses 51 & 52
In John 8:12, 18, 24, & 28, Jesus used “ego eimi” with Pharisees present (vs.13) and yet, no stoning. He, again, used it four times in John 10:7, 9, 11, & 14 with no stoning. Jesus said to his disciples, “that ye may believe that I am (ego eimi)” in John 13:19 without them batting an eye.
This brings us back to Jn.8:58. Why did the Jews seek to stone him on that occasion? The context of Jn.8 shows that Jesus;
How do you know that they did not bat an eye? They tried to kill Him numerous times, especially when he used the phrase “I am” in more direct and unmistakable grammar.
In John 8:58 Jesus did not use the form “I have been” in the Greek, but used the form “I am.” It does not make good grammar to say “Before Abraham was I am”. Jesus was using the title of Jehovah God in this phrase, in this manner to present the truth about His deity in an unmistakable way. That is why the Jews tried to stone Him.
The fact is that when the Jews accused Jesus of blaspheming, He did not retract His statements or correct them. Jesus thus accepted that He was the Great God and the Mighty “I AM”.
When they tried to stone Him for claiming to be God, Jesus could have said you misunderstood me, I wasn't blaspheming. The lack of response in this respect is conclusive evidence that Jesus was in fact telling them the truth, that He is Jehovah God. And He is.
In John 8:58, Jesus takes the name of God, “I AM” (Ex. 3:15-18), and applies it to himself. Only God may use this title without blaspheming (Ex. 20:7, Deut. 5:11), and the punishment for someone other than God to use the sacred “I AM” is stoning (Lev. 24:16). Thus in verse 59, Jesus’ audience picked up stones to kill him, because they correctly understood his use of “I AM” as his claim to being God and hence thought he was guilty of blasphemy.
This verse also proved to be difficult for the JWs to combat, and so they changed “I AM” to “I have been.” The Greek here is ego eimi, which any first-semester Greek student can tell you means “I am.” It should also be noted that it would be rather strange for people to stone Jesus for saying that he “had been.”
Exo 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
Why has the Jehovahs Witnesses bible the NWT translated “ego eimi” as I have been? when the literal translation is “I am”? Obviously they have something to hide.
Being Arians, the JWs don't want their heresy exposed. So they produced a corrupted version of the bible calling it the NWT or New World Translation. They could not go too far in one go or it would be even more obvious to all that this is a “cult bible.”
That is why there are so many inconsistancies in the NWT. You could nevertheless still use it to contradict the false doctrine of the JWs.
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,This verse gave the JWs tremendous difficulty, and so in their own NWT they render the end of this verse as, “And the word was a god.”
One great difficulty with this translation is how it contradicts passages such as Deuteronomy 32:39, which says, “I alone, am God and there are no gods together with me.” Further contradictions can be seen in Exodus 20:3, “Have no other gods besides me,” and Isaiah 43:10, “Before me no god was formed nor shall there be any after me.”
When a particular translation so clearly opposes other verses in Scripture, one can know immediately that it is a cult rendition.
Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
In the original Greek it literally reads, “The Lord of me and the God of me.” It would be nothing short of blasphemy for Jesus not to rebuke Thomas if he was wrong. Jesus does nothing of the sort, but instead accepts Thomas’ profession of his identity as God.
The Bible indicates that God alone created the universe (Is. 44:24), and “he that constructed all things is God” (Heb. 3:4). However, Jesus created the heavens and the earth (Heb. 1:10). This passage by itself proves that Jesus is God, since an Old Testament reference to God (Ps. 102:26-28) is now given to him.
JWs maintain that only Jehovah God may be prayed to. But Stephen prayed to Jesus in Acts 7:59, and so one must conclude that Jesus is God. Otherwise, Stephen blasphemed while filled with the Holy Spirit (7:55).
The WTS would have their followers believe that Jehovah and Jesus are necessarily different beings, though the Bible tells another story.
Jesus is called Mighty God in Isaiah 9:6.
Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Jer 23:5 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
Jer 23:6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD (JEHOVAH) OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.Other shared titles include: King of Kings (compare with Rev. 17:14), Lord of Lords (Deut. 10:17; Rev. 17:14), the only Savior (Is. 43:10-11; Acts 4:12), the First and the Last (Is. 44:6; Rev. 22:13), the Alpha and the Omega (Rev. 1:8; Rev. 22:13-16), Rock (Is. 8:14; 1 Pet. 2:7-8), and Shepherd (Ps. 23:1; Heb. 13:20-21).
Jesus and Jehovah have much more in common than titles, though. They are both worshipped by angels (Heb. 1:6, Neh. 9:6). They are both unchanging (Heb. 13:8, Mal. 3:6). They both created the heavens and the earth (Heb. 1:10, Neh. 9:6) and are all-knowing (John 21:17, 1 John 3:20). Both gi
ve eternal life (John 10:28, 1 John 5:11), and judge the world (John 5:22, Ps. 96:13). To them every knee will bend and every tongue confess (Phil. 2:9-11, Is. 45:23).Joh 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
The Jews obviously understand that Jesus was claiming to be God. Jesus did not dispute their accusation. He could have but He didn't, simply because Jesus was God. He could have set the record straight by saying to the Jews, I am not claiming to be God, you misunderstood me. But Jesus did not correct them because He was claiming to be God. Jesus was and still is God.
Mar 14:62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
Mar 14:63 Then the high priest rent his clothes, and saith, What need we any further witnesses?
Mar 14:64 Ye have heard the blasphemy: what think ye? And they all condemned him to be guilty of death
The high priest accused Jesus of blasphemy because He claimed to be God. He claimed to be the Christ, the Son of the Blessed. The High priest understood that the Christ, the Son of the blessed was God.In this context, Jesus also used the name “I AM” as His own. That is why he was accused of blasphemy. When a man claims to be God it is blasphemy. See (John 10:33).
Jesus could have said to the high priest, you misunderstood
me, I was not blaspheming, I was not claiming to be God. He could have said I deny being the Christ, the Son of the Blessed. But He didn't correct the high priest because Jesus had claimed to be God. And the high priest knew it.The claim of Jesus to be “sitting on the right hand of power” is a metaphor meaning that all authority is Jesus'.
John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
John 8:57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am
John 8:59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.Undoubtedly, Jesus knew the difference in the Greek between “I am” and “I have been.” Jesus did not use the form “I have been” in the Greek, but used the form “I am.”
Thus clearly the Jews understood that Jesus was Himself claiming to be the Great I AM God and were enraged and wanted Him dead.
See the words of Jehovah (Jesus)
Exo 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
Jesus said.
John 8:24 …for if ye believe not that I am, ye shall die in your sins.
Jesus Himself laid down the line – unless one believes Him for whom He says He is – the ego eimi, the great I AM – one will die in one's sins. There is no salvation in a false Christ. If we are to be united with Christ to have eternal life, then we must be united with the true Christ, not a false representation. It is out of love that Christ uttered John 8:24. We would do well to heed His words.
Why don't you people open up your eyes and look! Just admit your mistake instead of using the Holy Bible to try to cover your errors. It is better for you that you give up your false religions. The Bible is God's Word and it is to be used to establish truth, but you folk use it to fight against the truth! The truth is bigger than what you are, so it is pointless trying to fight it.
The Light was shining in darkness; but “the darkness apprehended it not.” John 1:5
Quote In John 8:58 Jesus did not use the form “I have been” in the Greek, but used the form “I am.” It does not make good grammar to say “Before Abraham was I am”. –Cult Buster
Right, CB, it don't make for good grammer.
That's why newer Bibles that aren't so slanted in their trinitarian beliefs that they will forsake “good grammer” translate it more properly:
Some examples that I've already quoted:
“I have existed before Abraham was born.”
“I existed before Abraham was born.”
“Before Abraham came to be, I was.”
“Before there was an Abraham, I was already there!”
“Before Abraham was born, I was.”
“Before Abraham existed, I was.”Quote the punishment for someone other than God to use the sacred “I AM” is stoning (Lev. 24:16). So the other 1500 times or so that the words “I am” occur in the Bible…these ones should have been stoned?
Quote Joh 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. It's is so very very very odd that evey time you quote this, you neglect the next verse, where Jesus speaks.
Why not just accept Jesus words instead of tying yourself to those who must surely be condemned for having the son of God killed?
David,
If Jesus spoke in the present tense, why translate it otherwise?
Jesus' statement after being accused of blasphemy does not indicate that He is just “one of the gods.” They are the ones to whom the word came (and who fail to execute justice, and who will die like men, eep). Jesus is the one the Father sanctified and sent into the world, the Son of God. We already know from John 5:18 that being the Son means being equal to the Father. His works are for us to know and continue knowing that He is in the Father and the Father is in Him. This is not true of any of the gods in Psalm 82, so He couldn't have been identifying Himself with them. The Jews' response to this is again to try to seize Him. For what? If Jesus had just denied that He is God, why did they “again” and “therefore” try to seize Him?
Tim
Quote We already know from John 5:18 that being the Son means being equal to the Father. Those “seeking to kill him” believed that Jesus was “calling God his own Father, making himself equal to God.”
They equated the two: Calling God his Father with putting himself on a level plane with the king of the universe.
Of course, Jesus, himself, actually said: “The Father is greater than I am.”
Wow! I just noticed that hidden message again! “I am.” Even though Jesus is saying the Father, (someone else) is greater than he is, he also apparently snuck in a sneaky hidden code by using the phrase “I am,” a phrase that is used some 1500 times in the Bible!
I'm joking of course.
Dave,
You say in John 5:18 that the Jews “believed” that calling God His own Father made Him equal with God.
This part about the “Jews believed” isn't in the verse. It just says, “For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.” John doesn't say who believed this, so at the very least we know John believed it. But looking at it again, we see that “He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.” So it seems quite obvious to me that Jesus is the one “making Himself equal with God.”
Tim
Quote “He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.” Was he breaking the Sabbath? They thought so. Was he? I'm not certain he was. He was breaking their added rules, if I remember correctly.
This is what they, (those who wanted him dead) thought. I don't think the Lord of the Sabbath was breaking the sabbath, and nor was he making himself eqaual with God. This is how they saw it.It was the unbelieving Jews who reasoned that Jesus was attempting to make himself equal with God by claiming God as his Father. While properly referring to God as his Father, Jesus never claimed equality with God. He straightforwardly answered the Jews: “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing.” (John 5:19, RS; see also John 14:28; John 10:36.) It was those unbelieving Jews, too, who claimed that Jesus broke the Sabbath, but they were wrong also about that. Jesus kept the Law perfectly, and he declared: “It is lawful to do good on the sabbath.”—Matt. 12:10-12, RS.
Quote “For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.” Quote Jesus kept the Law perfectly, and he declared: “It is lawful to do good on the sabbath.”—Matt. 12:10-12, RS. So you see, it was their belief that he was breaking the sabbath and making himself equal to God.
This wasn't something Jesus said. It was what they wrongly believed, just as they wrongly believed he was breaking the sabbath.
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