- This topic is empty.
- Posts
Quote Quote
Jesus is a man. Of course he received authority and power from God.But He's also God. John 20:28.
So, befor he was given this authority and power, how much authority and power did he have?
did he have an equal amount of authority and power with his Father, and his God, Jehovah?
And if he did, does this mean that after he was given this authority, that he would have more?
do they have the same amount of authority and power?
How did this all fit?
Here were my questions from the trinity thread. (We somehow switched threads, conveniently making it hard for anyone to find the questions you don't want to answer.)
Quote (david @ April 22 2007,18:51) Charity was talking about wisdom in proverbs. Your responce to her was: Was Jesus a female?
The scriptures you refer to is speaking of wisdom personified not Jesus.
. . . .Unless you believe he is female or the wife of God!And then:
“Is Jesus your sister?”You are clearly saying that wisdom cannot be referring to Jesus, unless Jesus is female.
I said:
YOU WJ, falsely assert and argue that Jesus can never ever be called wisdom, because that word is in the femine gender.Then you say:
Lie! Please show me where I said this!Obviously I wasn't directly quoting you, but that is in fact what you were saying. If not, please backpeddle out of it, somehow, or explain why I am wrong.
DavidI am saying Jesus is made unto us wisdom, because all wisdom is in him.
but I reject the personification of the writter of hebrews to meaning or refering to Yeshua.
I believe that the writter is simply showing how important wisdom is.
I reject the unambiguous interpretation that Yeshua had a beginning as Proverbs states about wisdom.
And because of the female gender.
You use love as if love is a personification of the Father. Love is an attribute of the Father. Love is not literally God.
Do you believe it is?
So neither is wisdom the person of Christ!
Simple!
Quote Was Jesus a female?
The scriptures you refer to is speaking of wisdom personified not Jesus.
. . . .Unless you believe he is female or the wife of God!And then:
“Is Jesus your sister?”Quote And because of the female gender. All I'm saying now, and have been saying (not really looking at the whole argument) is that you can't use the female gender to prove that when it says “wisdom” it can't be speaking about Jesus.
We know this because when it says “God is love” the Greek word for “love” is in female gender, yet God IS love. Thankyou for bringing that out.
God IS love, and love is a female gender word here.
Is God a female?
No.
Can Jesus be personified by a word that is female?
Yes, if God can actually BE a word that is in female gender, I don't see how any reasonable person on the planet could argue against it.hi W,
While it is tempting to see Proverbs 8 the Word I would agree that it would be unlikely and speculative especially in view of the fact that God's precious wisdom is infused in all creation, but Christ is not.Quote (david @ April 22 2007,18:54) Quote Quote
Jesus is a man. Of course he received authority and power from God.But He's also God. John 20:28.
So, befor he was given this authority and power, how much authority and power did he have?
did he have an equal amount of authority and power with his Father, and his God, Jehovah?
And if he did, does this mean that after he was given this authority, that he would have more?
do they have the same amount of authority and power?
How did this all fit?
Here were my questions from the trinity thread. (We somehow switched threads, conveniently making it hard for anyone to find the questions you don't want to answer.)
DavidI dont know how else to answer you.
I have.
He gave up his power as God when he left heaven and took on the form of a servant!
And now has returned to the Father having recieved what was in the beginning his.
Quote Love is not literally God.
Right. And Jesus is not literally wisdom.Another good point. I'll have to add it to my file. Thankyou.
Quote While it is tempting to see Proverbs 8 the Word I would agree that it would be unlikely and speculative especially in view of the fact that God's precious wisdom is infused in all creation, but Christ is not. 1. God's wisdom is infused in all creation.
2. Christ is not infused in all creation.
3. Therefore, Christ cannot be personified as wisdom?
Please explain.
“He who is walking with wise persons will become wise.”
Who is wiser than Jehovah, king of eternity?
No one.
And who has been walking with Jehovah?
Is Jesus not extremely wise?Quote He gave up his power as God when he left heaven and took on the form of a servant! Did he remain fully God when he “gave up his power as God”?
Doesn't being God mean you have lots of power? In Hebrew, that's what Elohim means, anyway.
TheBible says he “BECAME flesh.”I actually physically have to go to sleep now.
Quote (david @ April 22 2007,17:01) So, your argument is invalid
No David, yours is. “Love” is not a pronoun.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 22 2007,19:05) Quote (david @ April 22 2007,18:54) Quote Quote
Jesus is a man. Of course he received authority and power from God.But He's also God. John 20:28.
So, befor he was given this authority and power, how much authority and power did he have?
did he have an equal amount of authority and power with his Father, and his God, Jehovah?
And if he did, does this mean that after he was given this authority, that he would have more?
do they have the same amount of authority and power?
How did this all fit?
Here were my questions from the trinity thread. (We somehow switched threads, conveniently making it hard for anyone to find the questions you don't want to answer.)
DavidI dont know how else to answer you.
I have.
He gave up his power as God when he left heaven and took on the form of a servant!
And now has returned to the Father having recieved what was in the beginning his.
Hi W,
I must say he seems to have gained rather little out of his huge sacrifice if he only finished up with the same as he left behind in heaven. No great incentive to come, be made less than the angels and abused and killed by pathetic lowly men is it?What then of the joy spoken of?
28Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.
Hebrews 12:2
Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.Hi W,
From the first words of God to Adam in Gen 116The LORD God commanded the man, saying, “From any tree of the garden you may eat freely;”
So if, in your opinion, God is multiple persons and together they are called WE in Genesis,
which of the WE said this or was it said by THEM?Hi,
In Gen 17 God again made contact with the human race and spoke to Abram.1Now when Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD appeared to Abram and said to him,
“I am God Almighty;
Walk before Me, and be blameless.
2″I will establish My covenant between Me and you,
And I will multiply you exceedingly.”
3Abram fell on his face, and God talked with him, saying,
4″As for Me, behold, My covenant is with you,
And you will be the father of a multitude of nationsSo the question has to be asked of those who believe God is of multiple persons was it one or three that spoke to Abram?
Hi,
Then God spoke with Moses in Ex 3.
Exodus 3:14
God said to Moses, ” I AM WHO I AM”; and He said, “Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.'”Now many tell us that Jesus is the I AM.
So do they say these words were spoken by Jesus or a trinity?Exo 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
Exo 3:15 And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The LORD(Jehovah) God (Elohiym) of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations.Let me ask you Nick. The LORD God (Jehovah Elohiym). Is He one or three Persons?
Joh 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
Hi CB,
God is ONE CB.
Did you hear God has visited His people?
He came in the vessel of His monogenes Son and that is the good news.Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 23 2007,17:43) He came in the vessel of His monogenes Son and that is the good news.
Where in scripture can we find the word “vessel” used in association with Yeshua?Quote Cult Buster
Quote Let me ask you Nick. The LORD God (Jehovah Elohiym). Is He one or three Persons? Quote Hi CB,
God is ONE CB.
Did you hear God has visited His people?
He came in the vessel of His monogenes Son and that is the good newNick, then “The LORD God (Jehovah Elohiym)” the great “I AM” in the following must refer to Jesus alone and not the Godhead
Exo 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
Exo 3:15 And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The LORD God (Jehovah Elohiym) of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations.Joh 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
Hi CB,
Jesus is a man.
Mark 9:8
And suddenly, when they had looked round about, they saw no man any more, save Jesus only with themselves.
1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
Acts 2
22Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:So would you teach God is the image of man?
That is dangerous
Rom1
” 21Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.22Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. “
God is not a man.
God is not in our image as men.Just to bring this conversation back to it's subject:
“I have existed before Abraham was born.”
“I existed before Abraham was born.”
“Before Abraham came to be, I was.”
“Before there was an Abraham, I was already there!”
“Before Abraham was born, I was.”
“Before Abraham existed, I was.”EXODUS 3:14
“I SHALL PROVE TO BE WHAT I SHALL PROVE TO BE.” Heb., היהא רשא היהא (’Eh·yeh́ ’Asheŕ ’Eh·yeh́)
Leeser, “I WILL BE THAT I WILL BE”;
Rotherham, “I Will Become whatsoever I please.”
Gr., E·gó ei·mi ho on, “I am The Being,” or, “I am The Existing One”;
Lat., égo sum qui sum, “I am Who I am.”
’Eh·yeh́ comes from the Heb. verb ha·yah́, “become; prove to be.” Here ’Eh·yeh́ is in the imperfect state, first person sing., meaning “I shall become”; or, “I shall prove to be.” The reference here is not to God’s self-existence but to what he has in mind to become toward others. Compare Ge 2:4 ftn, “Jehovah,” where the kindred, but different, Heb. verb ha·wah́ appears in the divine name.The expression “I AM” is there used as a title or a name, and in the Hebrew this expression is the one word Ehyéh (א?ה?י?ה?). Jehovah God was there speaking to Moses and sending him to the children of Israel. Well, then, in John 8:58, was Jesus claiming to be Jehovah God? Not according to many modern Bible translators, as the following quotations will prove:
Moffatt: “I have existed before Abraham was born.”
Schonfield and An American Translation: “I existed before Abraham was born.” Stage (German): “Before Abraham came to be, I was.”
Pfaefflin (German): “Before there was an Abraham, I was already there!”
George M. Lamsa, translating from the Syriac Peshitta, says: “Before Abraham was born, I was.”
Dr. James Murdock, also translating from the Syriac Peshitto Version, says: “Before Abraham existed, I was.”
The Brazilian Sacred Bible published by the Catholic Bible Center of São Paulo says: “Before Abraham existed, I was existing.”—2nd edition, of 1960, Bíblia Sagrada, Editora “AVE MARIA” Ltda.
(w62 10/1 p. 588 par. 18)According to the King James Version rendering of Exodus 3:13, 14, Moses asked: “When I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them? And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.”
About this text, The Pentateuch and Haftorahs (Hebrew text with English translation and exposition, edited by Dr. J. H. Hertz) says that in the phrase “I am that I am . . . the emphasis is on the active manifestation of the Divine existence.”
Its use as a title or name for God was therefore appropriate because by delivering them from Egyptian bondage, God was about to manifest his existence in behalf of his people in an outstanding way. Hertz says that “most moderns follow Rashi [a renowned medieval French Bible and Talmud commentator] in rendering ‘I will be what I will be.’” This agrees with the rendering of the New World Translation, which reads: “I SHALL PROVE TO BE WHAT I SHALL PROVE TO BE.”That this meant no change in God’s name, but only an additional insight into God’s personality, is seen from his further words: “This is what you are to say to the sons of Israel, ‘Jehovah the God of your forefathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.’ This is my name to time indefinite, and this is the memorial of me to generation after generation.” (Ex 3:15; compare Ps 135:13; Ho 12:5.)
he name Jehovah comes from the Hebrew verb ha·wah́, “become,” and actually means “He Causes to Become.” This reveals Jehovah as the One who, with progressive action, causes himself to become the Fulfiller of promises. Thus he always brings his purposes to realization. Only the true God could rightly and authentically bear such a name.
(it-2 p. 12)Many translations use the expression “I Am” both at John 8:58 and Exodus 3:14. But do both texts express the same thought?
No. We know that they do not because at Exodus 3:14 the Greek Septuagint Version (the translation that was often quoted by the apostles in the first century C.E.) reads, e·gó ei·mí ho Ohń, “I am the Being.” This is quite different from the simple use of the words e·gó ei·mí (I am) at John 8:58. The verb ei·mí, at John 8:58, is evidently in the historical present, as Jesus was speaking about himself in relation to Abraham’s past. Numerous translators indicate this in their renderings. For example, An American Translation reads: “I existed before Abraham was born!”Jesus’ pointing to his prehuman existence should have come as no surprise to the Jews. Centuries earlier, Micah’s prophecy said of the Messiah: “You, O Bethlehem Ephrathah, the one too little to get to be among the thousands of Judah, from you there will come out to me the one who is to become ruler in Israel, whose origin is from early times, from the days of time indefinite.” (Mic. 5:2)
Thus while Jesus existed long before Abraham, he is not without beginning. Unlike his Father, who is “from time indefinite to time indefinite,” the Son is spoken of as having “origin.”—Ps. 90:2.
The very fact that Jesus is called the “Son of God” reveals that he was produced by the Father and is, therefore, his firstborn and only-begotten Son. Jesus himself said: “I live because of the Father.” (John 6:57) After having come into existence, the Son was used in creating everything. (John 1:1-3; Col. 1:15-17; Heb. 1:2) As firstborn Son, this one enjoyed a special intimacy with the Father. He is spoken of in Scripture as being “in the bosom position with the Father.”—John 1:18.A quote from Adam Pastor on page 1:
There is absolutely no connection between Exo 3.14 & John 8.58. The simplest proof of this is to look at the Greek of Exo 3.14 in the LXX.Exo 3:14 And God said unto Moses, ego eimi ho ohn: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, ho ohn hath sent me unto you.
If Jesus was indeed identifying himself with the One in Exo 3.14; John would have recorded him saying …
“Before Abraham, ego eimi ho ohn” OR
“Before Abraham, ho ohn”Jesus said no such this!
Jesus used the phrase ego eimi to identify himself as the promised Messiah (just as he did in 4.26,8:24,28)
In like manner, the man who was healed uses the same phrase to identify himself as the one who was blind.
ego eimi is equivalent to It's me!In John 8:58, Jesus is stating that 'Before Abraham', GOD had foreordained Jesus to be the Messiah.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
