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Quote According to 1 Corinthians Jesus is the wisdom and power of God. So you believe that God's wisdom and power are found in someone else? PROVERBS 13:20
“He that is walking with wise persons will become wise
Jesus obviously has been walking with his Father for quite some time. And he has been “given” authority and power, as we've been discussing on other threads.Quote (david @ April 22 2007,16:54) Quote Charity Was Jesus a female?
The scriptures you refer to is speaking of wisdom personified not Jesus.
“Yahweh created me, first-fruits of his fashioning, before the oldest of his works. Before the mountains were settled, before the hills, I came to birth; before he had made the earth, the countryside, and the first elements of the world.” (Proverbs 8:12, 22, 25, 26, NJB)“Jehovah himself produced me as the beginning of his way, the earliest of his achievements of long ago….Before the mountains themselves had been settled down, ahead of the hills, I was brought forth as with labor pains…When he prepared the heavens I was there; …then I came to be beside him as a master worker, and I cam to be the one he was specially fond of day by day, I being glad before him all the time,…and the things I was found of were with the sons of men.”
Could this passage merely be talking about divine wisdom or wisdom in the abstract?
(Prov 8:22-31)The Wisdom that is here described was “produced,”or created, as the beginning of Jehovah’s way. Jehovah God has always existed and has always been wise. (Ps 90:1,2) His wisdom had no beginning; it was neither created nor produced.
It was “brought forth as with labor pains.” Furthermore, this wisdom is said to speak and act, representing a person. (Prov 8:1)(Some say that the holy spirit is spoken of in that manner and so the holy spirit must be an individual. Well, the same reasoning would apply to this scripture then.)
Depicting the Son of God as wisdom is appropriate, since was was God’s Word or spokesman and was the one who revealed Jehovah’s wise purposes and decrees. Elsewhere, he is described as being “the power of God and the wisdom of God,” and also the “wisdom from God.” (1 cor 1:24,30)# Colossians 1:15 (English-NIV): He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
# John 1:3 (English-NIV): Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.SORRY, ACTUALLY, IF FORGOT THE main point I was addressing. Let me add:
The fact that the Hebrew word for “wisdom” is always in the feminine gender does not conflict with the use of wisdom to represent God’s Son.The Greek word for “love” in the expression “God is love” is also in the feminine gender. (1 John 4:8) Yet, it is used to refer to God.
So…. ya.
DavidLies from your hellish religion!
Quote David Lies from your hellish religion!
You're funny. You gave up in the other thread, because you can't answer questions, and now you go around simply saying:
“hellish religion” instead of actually conversing.
Look in the mirror for a second. What do you see? Someone who can't answer questions but prefers to slander. It is true that this is easier.
Quote Lies from your hellish religion!
Is it a lie thatQuote The Greek word for “love” in the expression “God is love” is also in the feminine gender. (1 John 4:8)
And if it is not, then wouldn't this make your argument completely utterly meaningless?Yes.
I do understand why you would be so upset.
Quote (david @ April 22 2007,17:01) Quote Charity Was Jesus a female?
WJ, is God female?
Yet, the Greek word for “love” in the expression “God is love” is also in the feminine gender. (1 John 4:8)So, your argument is invalid, and not scriptural.
DavidNo my argument is bnot invalid!
Is Jesus your sister?
Prov 7:4
Say unto wisdom, Thou art my sister; and call understanding thy kinswoman:Col 2:
2 That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ;
3 *In whom* are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.Was Jesus the wisdom in himself?
Quote (david @ April 22 2007,18:12) Quote David Lies from your hellish religion!
You're funny. You gave up in the other thread, because you can't answer questions, and now you go around simply saying:
“hellish religion” instead of actually conversing.
Look in the mirror for a second. What do you see? Someone who can't answer questions but prefers to slander. It is true that this is easier.
Quote Lies from your hellish religion!
Is it a lie thatQuote The Greek word for “love” in the expression “God is love” is also in the feminine gender. (1 John 4:8)
And if it is not, then wouldn't this make your argument completely utterly meaningless?Yes.
I do understand why you would be so upset.
DavidI didnt give up because I answered your questions! The problem is you dont listen or dont accept the answers, which of course is your right.
But I will not waste my time with you patonizing me and my faith when there is no dialoge with you.
So believe as you will have fun preaching “Your Truth”
Quote David No my argument is bnot invalid!
Is Jesus your sister?
Let me explain it again….
You say that the word wisdom is in the female gender so it can't apply to Jesus.
But the Greek word “love” in “God is love” is also in the female gender and “God is love.”
Obviously you CAN use the female gender for words that describe Jesus or even God.I took french until grade 12. Unlike English, it has female and male gender words. Just because a word starts with “la” or “the” in the femine form, doesn't in the slightest mean that thing is a girl.
Get it?
Hi W,
You ask
'Was Jesus the wisdom in himself?”
No it was GIVEN to him.
Luke 2:40
And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him.
Luke 2:52
And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.
1 Corinthians 1:24
But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
1 Corinthians 1:30
But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:It is of the Spirit of God and ours in Christ
1 Corinthians 2:7
But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
1 Corinthians 12:8
For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
Ephesians 1:17
That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him
col2
2That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ;3In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.
Quote (david @ April 22 2007,18:25) Quote David No my argument is bnot invalid!
Is Jesus your sister?
Let me explain it again….
You say that the word wisdom is in the female gender so it can't apply to Jesus.
But the Greek word “love” in “God is love” is also in the female gender and “God is love.”
Obviously you CAN use the female gender for words that describe Jesus or even God.I took french until grade 12. Unlike English, it has female and male gender words. Just because a word starts with “la” or “the” in the femine form, doesn't in the slightest mean that thing is a girl.
Get it?
DavidNo I dont get it.
You didnt read my post aparrantloy and you also have no clear evidence that wisdom in proverbs is Yeshua.
You simply have your interpretation.
So have fun with it. Jesus is a created being to you, fine.
Good bye!
Quote The problem is you dont listen or dont accept the answers, which of course is your right. Um.. no. The problem is instead of even attempting to answer a question you can't answer, you say something LIKE 'John 1:1, Jesus is clearly God, hence the trinity, hence I don't have to answer your questions. check phil 2.'
That isn't an answer. It only proves you don't have answers.
Quote But I will not waste my time with you patonizing me and my faith when there is no dialoge with you. I'm sorry if I got frustrated with that merrry go round you put us on by repeatedly avoiding my questions and trying to diver the conversation. If my pointing this out upsets you, so be it.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 22 2007,18:26) Hi W,
You ask
'Was Jesus the wisdom in himself?”
No it was GIVEN to him.
Luke 2:40
And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him.
Luke 2:52
And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.
1 Corinthians 1:24
But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
1 Corinthians 1:30
But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:It is of the Spirit of God and ours in Christ
1 Corinthians 2:7
But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
1 Corinthians 12:8
For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
Ephesians 1:17
That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him
col2
2That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ;3In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.
NHSo he is the wisdom personified in proverbs and increased in himself in luke?
Ridiculous, Jesus “has” all wisdom and because he has all wisdom he is made unto us wisdom.
Quote David No I dont get it.
You didnt read my post aparrantloy and you also have no clear evidence that wisdom in proverbs is Yeshua.
(first, my main argument was to say that just because the word “wisdom” is in the femine gender, doesn't mean it can't be applied to Jesus. This is what I've said about 4 or 5 times, and WJ is having trouble understanding it. Now, he is refashioning what we are discussing, trying to leave or end what he is pretending not to be able to understand.)
I now believe WJ is purposely being unreasonable or he is actually being blinded by Satan. The logic is incredibly simple.
Quote You say that the word wisdom is in the female gender so it can't apply to Jesus.
But the Greek word “love” in “God is love” is also in the female gender and “God is love.”
Obviously you CAN use the female gender for words that describe Jesus or even God.I took french until grade 12. Unlike English, it has female and male gender words. Just because a word starts with “la” or “the” in the femine form, doesn't in the slightest mean that thing is a girl.
Ok, in french and many many languages, there is masculine and feminine words. This in no way means that a thing is masculine or feminine. It's completely or at least fairly arbitrary. A book might be masculine, a magazine feminine, a drawing masculine, a painting feminine, etc.
With Greek, we see that God, who is described as “love” (feminine) isn't a woman, yet, he is described as “love.”
YOU WJ, falsely assert and argue that Jesus can never ever be called wisdom, because that word is in the femine gender.
WELL, THEN, I GUESS GOD WAS NEVER CALLED 'LOVE'
completely absurd.
So, just one more time: If Jesus could never be “wisdom” because that word is in the femine gender, then God cannot be love, where it specifically says “God is love” because that word is also in the Greek femine gender.
Quote (david @ April 22 2007,18:28) Quote The problem is you dont listen or dont accept the answers, which of course is your right. Um.. no. The problem is instead of even attempting to answer a question you can't answer, you say something LIKE 'John 1:1, Jesus is clearly God, hence the trinity, hence I don't have to answer your questions. check phil 2.'
That isn't an answer. It only proves you don't have answers.
Quote But I will not waste my time with you patonizing me and my faith when there is no dialoge with you. I'm sorry if I got frustrated with that merrry go round you put us on by repeatedly avoiding my questions and trying to diver the conversation. If my pointing this out upsets you, so be it.
DavidWhy isnt phil 2 and Jn 1:1 an answer?
Because if we believe the scriptures as it says then no amount of human logic should change our minds if we believe the scrioptures are true.
Now either you accept Jn 1:1 and in light of that Phil 2 or you dont and you have your own human logical interpretation or you simply throw thm out or change them like you NWT has done.
If he is God then that would say that he shared all power and authority as he does now with the Father but also understanding that Yesha is subservient to the Father. Why is that hard to believe?
Of course I know why.
Quote Why isnt phil 2 and Jn 1:1 an answer? Those are scriptures not answers.
Quote If he is God then that would say that he shared all power and authority as he does now Then why oh why did he have to be “given” these things?
Are you usually given something you already posess?Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 22 2007,18:31) Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 22 2007,18:26) Hi W,
You ask
'Was Jesus the wisdom in himself?”
No it was GIVEN to him.
Luke 2:40
And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him.
Luke 2:52
And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.
1 Corinthians 1:24
But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
1 Corinthians 1:30
But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:It is of the Spirit of God and ours in Christ
1 Corinthians 2:7
But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
1 Corinthians 12:8
For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
Ephesians 1:17
That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him
col2
2That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ;3In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.
NHSo he is the wisdom personified in proverbs and increased in himself in luke?
Ridiculous, Jesus “has” all wisdom and because he has all wisdom he is made unto us wisdom.
DavidYou say…
Quote
YOU WJ, falsely assert and argue that Jesus can never ever be called wisdom, because that word is in the femine gender.WELL, THEN, I GUESS GOD WAS NEVER CALLED 'LOVE'
Lie! Please show me where I said this!
You see this post!
I am saying that Proverbs is not Unambiguous in reference to being Yeshua personified.
So you are the one now making false accusations.
I am usually not given things I already have, are you?
Is there anyone here who has to be given something they already have?There are many many scriptures which speak of the things God gave Jesus. They were God's to give.
Jesus had to given them.You cannot summarily dismiss these scriptures by saying: John 1:1.
John 1:1 doesn't answer any of the questions I asked. I'll go find them again.
Quote (david @ April 22 2007,18:41) Quote Why isnt phil 2 and Jn 1:1 an answer? Those are scriptures not answers.
Quote If he is God then that would say that he shared all power and authority as he does now Then why oh why did he have to be “given” these things?
Are you usually given something you already posess?
DavidBecause according to Phil 2 he left it all to take on the likeness of sinfull flesh and submit to the Father to death.
This is scriptural!
Believe it or not!
Quote (david @ April 22 2007,18:44) I am usually not given things I already have, are you?
Is there anyone here who has to be given something they already have?There are many many scriptures which speak of the things God gave Jesus. They were God's to give.
Jesus had to given them.You cannot summarily dismiss these scriptures by saying: John 1:1.
John 1:1 doesn't answer any of the questions I asked. I'll go find them again.
DavidShow me a scripture that says Yeshua was given everything before his human incarnation.
David
All things were made by him and *For Him*, when were all things made?
He already had everything to make all things.
Charity was talking about wisdom in proverbs. Your responce to her was:
Was Jesus a female?
The scriptures you refer to is speaking of wisdom personified not Jesus.
. . . .Unless you believe he is female or the wife of God!And then:
“Is Jesus your sister?”You are clearly saying that wisdom cannot be referring to Jesus, unless Jesus is female.
I said:
YOU WJ, falsely assert and argue that Jesus can never ever be called wisdom, because that word is in the femine gender.Then you say:
Lie! Please show me where I said this!Obviously I wasn't directly quoting you, but that is in fact what you were saying. If not, please backpeddle out of it, somehow, or explain why I am wrong.
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